Question on intercooler

[Kalstar]

I am no expert, but I'm thinking the intercooler in the engine bay with no air flowing throw the core might just be dead weight and not really cooling the charge temps that much. If I was to do a front mount, how much lag would be created by adding all that pipe?

Advise?

[IICEmanR6]

Why not just have a scoop directing the air into it? Also just by having the air go thru it regardless of its location it will have a cooling effect, but obviously much better if it has air being directly forced into it. if you were to put it in the front of the car your talking 2-2.5" piping going both ways.

[PhyrraM]

I'm sure that FFR has already given this some consideration in the design of the bodywork and whatever may be just under the bodywork.

[bnr32jason]

I'm considering eliminating the intercooler system altogether and going with methanol or water injection for cooling. Or perhaps supplementing the factory intercooler with a water injection system.

[Rasmus]

I'd like to guess that

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t278/RasmusHansen/Factory%20Five%20Racing%20818R/DSC_0707.png
this is the intake port for the air-to-air intercooler.

[timmy318]

I'd like to guess that

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t278/RasmusHansen/Factory%20Five%20Racing%20818R/DSC_0707.png
this is the intake port for the air-to-air intercooler.

What about the 818-S. The only vent I could see is the side scoops and the top vent for the engine bay which I don't think would actually effeminately direct airflow through the inter-cooler.......

[Mechie3]

I'm considering eliminating the intercooler system altogether and going with methanol or water injection for cooling. Or perhaps supplementing the factory intercooler with a water injection system.

It's been done. Forgot who tried it on NASIOC (some shop). I believe the end results were go intercooler if for nothing else that gains were small and if you run out of water/meth or the system fails for some reason you're almost guaranteed to lose a motor.

[papajon1000]

To answer the OP's question. In short, it depends. The length of the piping and the volume of the intercooler have a large effect on the turbo lag. Another thing to consider is the turbo itself, with a stock turbocharger the lag may not be as noticeable vs. aftermarket turbos because most of the time they tend to improve performance at the top end.

I have an AVO front mount on my legacy gt and I am only seeing a difference of 400-600 rpm in spool compared to the same turbo on a top mount setup. (but other things can still affect that number, tune, varying mechanical differences) I also enjoy the front mount much more because I can run an extra 2psi and some more timing on the same fuel.

My legacy story is not an apples to apples comparison to the 818 since the piping would be much longer.

Another option would be an air to water intercooler. Cuts down on piping and intercooler size, as well as provide more consistent intake air temps but is more complex.

Here is a good read that documents one person's air to water build: http://www.iwsti.com/forums/water-meth-injection-nitrous-intercooler-cooling/199117-t-gs-air-water-ic-build.html (http://www.iwsti.com/forums/water-meth-injection-nitrous-intercooler-cooling/199117-t-gs-air-water-ic-build.html)

[Xusia]

Why would not having an intercooler ruin the engine? I'm not being a smart-@$$. This is a serious question...

[JeromeS13]

The charge temperature entering the engine gets super hot. This leads to more detonation and more chances of popping a piston, etc.

[rjh2pd]

Yes, when you compress air it temperate goes up, and im sure the exhaust right next to it doesn't help either. I would think a front mount would give an extreme about of lag. Think of long the piping would be.

[Kalstar]

I'm sure that FFR has already given this some consideration in the design of the bodywork and whatever may be just under the bodywork.

The red 818S was track testing in pics with no hatch on, I'm guessing heat sink. The 818R has the intake opening on the left behind what would be the passanger seat on the 818s. Where would the S get the air from to push threw or across the intercooler?

[Rasmus]

Where would the S get the air from to push threw or across the intercooler?


http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/9490/tomsx.jpg
Re-purposed MR2 snorkels?

[PhyrraM]

Considering that everything we have seen so far is a prototype, and testing is still underway, I wouldn't read anything about the final product from what we have seen.

[Niburu]

I had thought the read deck vent over the intercooler was designed such as to induce a Bernoulli effect.
At least thats how it looks, maybe it's just a cosmetic design?

[metalmaker12]

Kalstar: I would stay with the top mount in this setup, you can always get a more efficient top mount. I have a Sti engine/intercooler jdm, I am putting and STI hood scoop between the humps. I am also getting a Intercooler sprayer that will mist for a period of time when at the onset of boost and when boost spikes, and a Meth injection that mist at the same time. This will keep her cool and have even steady power at 275-325whp depending on tune. I will be happy with this setup.:D

[Slatt]

Many valid points made here. My two bits is this: IF they release the car w/o good airflow into the intercooler you can easily add a fan beneath it. Much more can be said about installing, ducting, and controlling that fan but my point is DON'T PANIC! There IS an easy solution. Those small motorcycle - size fans from SPAL move an almost scary amount of air. :)

[Flamshackle]

Water to air cooler is an easy solution but I will be just running a repositioned cooler with fans I think. lots of options in the back.

[FFR-ADV]

Here is an interesting option for the 818SR which I am considering.

One could modify rear side air scoops (grab more air) like was done on some other mid engine cars.

156091561015611156121561315614

This could force air through the TMIC or if a larger TMIC (or re-purposed FMIC) will not fit there it could slide back over the transaxle (lots of room there) and vent up through the deck.

Cheers!

[FFR-ADV]

By the way there was alot of good info and external links on the air water intercooler topic on the following FFR forum thread:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?7680-Hmmm-How-about-a-Air-Water-Intercooler-or-other-aftermarket-options&highlight=water+intercooler

I personally like the idea of a simple low cost used STI TMIC upgrade. If someone made an intake kit with CF side scoops like above I expect there would be a market...

Cheers!

[bnr32jason]

I wonder if we could fabricate some air ducting that would direct air flow from one of the side intakes directly to the intercooler like you have mentioned above in the 818 though? Have you been up close enough to one or seen pictures that make you think there will be room for ducting?

[FFR-ADV]

From what I have seen at the Moochfest in person it seems quite doable. Metalmaker12 and others were there as well and might give further perspective or other ideas.

Here is a photo posted on the FFR website showing the 818R engine bay

15618

We could also duct air to the rear brakes at the same time.

I believe the FFR GTM takes a similar approach with a $399 "Cold Air Intake Kit" which looks real nice in pictures and in person.

http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/gtm-cold-air-intake-kit/

Would someone consider editing some rear side scoop ideas?

Cheers!

[metalmaker12]

15619, I am putting something like this between the humps, which is between the seats and air has the fastest access to the intercooler. It is the right over the cooler like in stock form and we can even use the stock hood scoop splitter. 156201562115622

[Samiam1017]

Are they planning on routing the air from the side scoops to the intercooler. I think this would be the best way to do it if they plan on having a top or some sort down the road.

[metalmaker12]

As far as I have heard a hard top/soft top will be down the road. The soft top might be offered around production, but we will find that out in the coming months

[Silvertop]

As far as I have heard a hard top/soft top will be down the road. The soft top might be offered around production, but we will find that out in the coming months

Knock on wood -- But an optional soft top has been promised to be available at production launch point..................

[metalmaker12]

Yea so were other things, but to me I have to see it listed as an option from FFR to believe it

[Samiam1017]

Lol I didn't realize the mention of a top would change the direction of this thread. The mention of the top was really in reference to it interfering with anything in the deck lid.

[FFR-ADV]

A top will impact some concepts of getting air to the intercooler. Collecting air from the sides is actually my second favorite method. A Targa top or better yet Gullwing T-Top based on Vman7s coupe collecting air for the intercooler from the scoops next to the windows is my favorite. There are vents in the deck in this region which tie into this concept.

15646

Cheers!

[Vman7]

All kinds of good ideas here :) I like metalmaker's idea of putting some kind of scoop between the humps, which would probably be the easiest.

Scoops, airboxes, front mount, fans all are great ideas. Airboxes could be run off the top fender opening or the side vents or both. Of course this would be for the roadster version, A coupe version would change things some.

[Kalstar]

Not sure if the 818 will be different then the GTM but in the GTM the lower vents let in nearly no air and the 818 vents are even smaller. On my GTM I went wide body and increased the vent openings to dump more air in to the engine bay. The more research I do the more I think a sealed unit like what Metalmaker is doing would be the best option, though it would change the outward appearance and create additional bodywork/paintwork. My thoughts are to increase airflow somehow into and "out of" the engine bay and in return reducing temps. Maybe run a few CPU USB fans below the intercooler to pull/push air away and hence though the intercooler. The fans are very inexpensive (less then $15.00 each) and a single inverter wired into the thermostat relay should run as many fans as needed. Thoughts?

[rjh2pd]

just wondering why you wouldn't run a small radiator fan or something instead of the usb fans? I like the idea though

[Flamshackle]

just wondering why you wouldn't run a small radiator fan or something instead of the usb fans?

Yes, USB fans are really not a good idea.

[Kalstar]

Yes, USB fans are really not a good idea.

Why not? The are inexpensive, waterproof, nearly silent, move a lot of CFM and can be easily hidden. Not looking to disagree with you, just looking for an education.

This is what I plan to use, there are cheaper alternatives.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/80mm-25mm-New-Case-Fan-12V-Waterproof-IP55-43CFM-4-Screws-3pin-Ball-Brgs-311a-/170774399004?pt=US_Computer_Case_Fans&hash=item27c2f2881c

Good short read.
http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=856098

[Xusia]

I don't know much about cars - Subaru's even less - but I do know quite a bit about computer hardware. I'm all about saving money and coming up with innovative/inventive solutions - no reason to spend more money than necessary! A few thoughts on this subject:

A fan is a fan. If it moves enough air, it will probably do the job
The fan listed above does state it's waterproof, so it should hold up to any moisture to which it is subjected
Case fans typically are not subjected to much shock, so this could be an issue
Typical life for a case fan is actually not very long - a few years at best. Of course, this is running continuously. I don't know what effect a lot of starting/stopping would have on their life, but I think it's safe to say they will NOT last as long as a purpose built radiator fan.
The fan listed above is a case fan, NOT a USB fan - the difference is voltage, current draw, and CFM. Case fans are 12v. USB delivers 5v. Therefore CFM will be significantly lower if powered by USB. That said, the car's electrical system delivers 12v, so I assume you would just use that. I just pointing out this difference so that others are aware.



I'm sure I'll think of some other things...

[Mechie3]

Total dead area of a series of fans vs one larger fan. Several fans in a matrix could have more dead space than a single large fan.

Single fan is easier to make a shroud for.

Actual pulling power. Some fans flow high CFM's until there is back pressure, then they flow very little.

Don't forget, the back of the intercooler (in stock form) is covered by the Y pipe with little direct access to the fins of the IC themselves. IMO, the best thing (besides a top mounted snorkel, which may play with the cosmetics) is something like the exige. Make a shroud that fits onto the top of the IC with ports for hoses. Seal this to the top face of the TMIC and connect the ports to side intakes with hoses. This creates positive pressure on the top and creates flow.

I like the idea of the center snorkel (like the intake on an F1/indycar/atom) but with the two large seat humps, not sure how it will look. It will need to be pretty tall on any car with a windshield as flow over the windshield will be turbulet and most likely miss most of the opening if it isn't as tall as the top of the roll cage. At that point you've pretty much made a targa car aesthetically.

[Xusia]

Additional good points. I had thought about the dead space issue, but by the time I got my other thoughts typed out I couldn't recall it.

Another issue is one of weight. Computer case fans are not designed with light weight in mind, and IMO are actually rather heavy. An array of them could weight more than a purpose built fan.