WTF 1.5 g cornering !!!

[Gus]

Just caught that in another thread. Just wandering with that kind of cornering wouldn't you want to have dry sump system or at the very least somthing like accusump. I'm far from being an expert but it seems to me such cornering force would cause oil starvation pretty quickly on a track. What do you guys think?

[Mike N]

Don't know how the Subaru oil system is designed but I agree that logically if you drove around and around in a circle you would fill up the outside cylinder head with oil leaving none in the sump.

[StatGSR]

well running a little too much oil can help, i run about .5 to 1 quart over on my integra, though im planning on getting a baffled pad and looking into accusumps for the next couple years of track days.

[Desertrunner]

Subaru Engines can hold a lot of oil in the heads at hi corners forces, not sure baffles in the sump will do much as the oil has to get back from the head to be helped by the baffle. Over fill is the cheapest and simplist answer.
Tony

[Hammink Performance]

Tony is right,
we've got a car called the Saker over here, which corners at 1,7G's, but is capable of doing 2,2G's, and I know someone who developes engines for them.
Gerrit is his name and he is also on this forum, and knows a lot about these engine, he builds them as well, I will forward tis thread to him.

[longislandwrx]

Now i'm thinking about it too. An accusump setup would be not be bad idea on this car.

1 x 24-026 -Accusump 2QT Accumulator
1 x 24-271 -Accusump EPC Electric Actuation Valve 20-25psi
1 x 24-728 -Accusump Subaru WRX / STI installation kit
1 x 24-200 -Accusump Mounting bracket set

seems to be about $500 in parts. not bad for an insurance policy.

[PhyrraM]

The oil return from each head is basically a horizontal plane about 6-8" long. (I've got photos in one of my old posts the last time this was discussed). That seems like it could hold quite a bit of oil - imagine filling a head with oil with the motor rolled over 50-60 degrees on an engine stand. (45 degrees would approximate 1.0G)

A dry sump system would need to "suck" from each head - in addition to the pan area.

[Mechie3]

"Mick the Ginge" on NASIOC had a very well built dry sump system. It also include a 5qt (?) reservoir in the rear of his WRX wagon. I'll try and find it.

[RM1SepEx]

I noticed that the engine had an amazing amount of baffling already... I would think that they designed it that way because of the horizontal design of the engine. A V or L engine is more vertical so the oil drains faster.

[Niburu]

Where is this 1.5G number that's being bandied about coming from?
Is it speculation on the forum's part or did FFR testing of the 818 generate it?

[Erik W. Treves]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?8994-The-competition/page2

[longislandwrx]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?8994-The-competition&p=88994&viewfull=1#post88994

[Niburu]

thank you gentlemen

[PhyrraM]

I've always wondered about the OEM baffling in the pan also. The OEM Subaru pan is already fairly deep and narrow, so uncovering the pickup seems unlikely, even if it had less baffling. The danger is the cylinder head holding all the oil under cornering, in which case any amount of baffling won't help.

I'm thinking that the OEM baffling might be to help de-aerate the oil?

[Mechie3]

The 2.5 and the 2.0 pans are different too. I believe the 2.5 pan is deeper with a smaller "diameter" at the bottom that the pickup sits in.

[RM1SepEx]

I've always wondered about the OEM baffling in the pan also. The OEM Subaru pan is already fairly deep and narrow, so uncovering the pickup seems unlikely, even if it had less baffling. The danger is the cylinder head holding all the oil under cornering, in which case any amount of baffling won't help.

I'm thinking that the OEM baffling might be to help de-aerate the oil?

yes it would help de-aerate the oil too... sustained Gees could easily "hold" oil in a head but I'm pretty confident that just adding extra oil would suffice to prevent starvation under all but the most extreme conditions. With my road and occasional autocross use it won't be an issue. If you race, I'd prepare for the worst to protect an expensive engine!

[Evan78]

Do accusump users have any way of knowing when it is being used? It would be interesting to hear from Subaru owners that have them installed if they know that it's actually doing anything.

[flynntuna]

A quick google search for subaru oil pans, came up with a couple after market pans. One buy Moroso with 5qt. capacity. Overkill?

[CHOTIS BILL]

I have found that turn 2 and turn 9 at Willow Springs is a good test for such things.

Bill Lomenick

[longislandwrx]

Do accusump users have any way of knowing when it is being used? It would be interesting to hear from Subaru owners that have them installed if they know that it's actually doing anything.

When the oil pressure is less than 25psi at the sensor it is being used.

turn on ignition... sensor sees less than 25 and starts preoiling your system. with the unit I mentioned before (24-271) it is easy to wire a 12v led indicator light after the pressure sensor which will come on when the system is active. Which is anytime it drops below that 25lbs.

[PhyrraM]

The 2.5 and the 2.0 pans are different too. I believe the 2.5 pan is deeper with a smaller "diameter" at the bottom that the pickup sits in.

The new pan was introduced for cars with twin scoll turbos. The traditional pan (used on all EJs up to that point) interfered with the new 'bulkier' exhaust piping. The 2.5 liter cars just inhereted the new design.

[Evan78]

When the oil pressure is less than 25psi at the sensor it is being used.

turn on ignition... sensor sees less than 25 and starts preoiling your system. with the unit I mentioned before (24-271) it is easy to wire a 12v led indicator light after the pressure sensor which will come on when the system is active. Which is anytime it drops below that 25lbs.Cool, thanks.

[Rasmus]

"Mick the Ginge" on NASIOC had a very well built dry sump system.

Mick changed his mind on the drysump system he installed (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1272571).


Back in 2007 as part of one of my builds I did a custom oil dry sump setup on my engine, details of that build are here: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1272571

A couple of pictures of the oil dry sump pump and tank.

http://www.mickandsarah.com/PGallery/Final-Car-Pics-02-10-2008/images/img_1120.jpg

http://www.mickandsarah.com/PGallery/Final-Car-Pics-02-10-2008/images/img_1122.jpg

Anyway it's been working very well, I'm hapy with it and I have got used to the maintenance (12-16 quart oil changes), warm up routine (20-30 minutes) and the extra weight of the setup. (ignoring the $$$$$$ that I put into building this setup)

So the question is, what would I do differently if I had to do it all over again?

Answer: I would not do a dry sump system.

I've mentioned this in other threads and thought I would note down my thoughts in a thread of it's own.

If I had to do it all over again I would install the follow which IMO is going to satisfy 95% of the builds.

#1 - Larger Oil Pan with integrated pickup
#2 - Larger or modified stock location oil pump
#3 - Accusump :- Optional but recommended for AutoX and Track use
#4 - Oil Cooler :- Optional but recommended for Track use

With these parts IMO you have a pretty bullet proof setup, so let me explain.

#1 - Larger Oil Pan with integrated pickup
More oil is better and there are now multiple options on the market that are tried and tested. I am not going to comment on which one I think is better, just look for one that has a larger oil capacity (Duh), integrated oil pickup and some sort of baffling. This is going to help with high G oil starvation and potential problem that have been seen with the stock pickup cracking.

#2 - Larger or modified stock location oil pump
Built engines with larger than stock bearing clearances need more flow and oil pressure. Again you now have so many options for stock location oil pumps. The 11mm and 12mm dealer supplied as well as the aftermarket modified versions of these. Combined with the larger oil pan and pickup you will have a great oil supply. Note: You need an oil pressure and oil temp guauge to know what pressure you are running at what RPM. Rule of thumb, 10psi oil pressure needed for 1000 rpm. I like to add 5psi to this. So at 7000 rpm you want 75 psi min at the max operating temp. Either shim or change oil to get this.

#3 - Accusump :- Optional but recommended for AutoX and Track use
If you plan to do alot of AutoX or track time which will high G stress the car I still recommend an Accusump.

http://www.mickandsarah.com/PGallery/Car-Build-Continued/images/img_2690.jpg

Even with a larger oil pan with pickup and baffles and higher flow oil pump you may still be able to starve the oil pump or suck up some air which will reduce your oil pressure. An Accusump is a good backup system for if this happens. It's a simple oil accumulator which backs up your engine oiling system. The oil pump pressurizes it and when the oil pressure drops off the accusump keeps the pressure stable for a little amount of time. So if you suck up an air bubble the Accusump will keep the oil pressure stable until the oil pump picks up again. An Accusump will also help with oiling during initial start up. Oh and you get to run yet another 2-3 quarts of oil as it's stored in the accusump itself.

You can plumb the Accusump into either the front or rear oil galley on top of the block. Or "T" it in (with no backfill check valve) to your oil cooler. Or I think it could be plumbed into a port on an oil sandwich adapter.

#4 - Oil Cooler :- Optional but recommended for Track use
As oil gets hot we all know it gets thinner. Track use especially in hot areas will stress the cooling system and an oil cooler can help manage oil temps. Remember the oil goes to more places than the coolant so it does the lions share of engine cooling. Again, many options on the market now. Look for ones that have at least dash 10 input/output otherwise the oil cooler may actually cause a restriction. I personally like the sandwich adapters that include a temperature controlled valve which bypasses the oil cooler while the oil is cool.

So that's it, Mick's recommendation on a oiling system. I'm sure I have forgotten a couple of items and not everyone is going to agree with me... but it's only my view and recommendation so you don't have to listen to me :)

Here's a link to that thread (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=30211398).

[Mechie3]

Didn't remember that part. It's been a few years. Thanks for that tidbit. I do remember them being quite expensive.

[Gus]

Thank you all for the great feedback !

[Rasmus]

To counter any oil starvation issues I plan on:

1. Installing a larger capacity oil pan, better designed oil pick up, and a windage tray. Killer B's set up caught my eye (http://photos.killerbmotorsport.com/GalleryThumbnails.aspx?gallery=244532).
2. Installing an oil accumulator. Accusump or Moroso. Tapped right into the oil galley on the block.
3. Run an oil cooler with mechanical thermostat. Thermostat so the oil can heat up faster.

I'd only run a larger oil pump or modified pump if my engine builder thought it was necessary. Running too large an oil pump can lead to overheating the oil and aeration. Apparently the bypass valve causes this.

[Mechie3]

Regarding the oil galley plugs, do you know off hand if they are before or after the crank in the oiling flow path?

[Rasmus]

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t278/RasmusHansen/Factory%20Five%20Racing%20818R/OilGalley.png
I've identified 6 easy ways to access the oil galley on an EJ. Along with the threading. I, personally, plan to use the one I circled. It's upstream from both heads, the mains (thus the rods and wristpins), and all the other access points I identified. That means if the oil accumulator takes over and does it's job, it won't have to reverse the flow in any of the oil galleys.

[longislandwrx]

I've identified 6 easy ways to access the oil galley on an EJ. Along with the threading. I, personally, plan to use the one I circled. It's upstream from both heads, the mains (rods and wristpins), and all the other access points I identified. That means if the oil accumulator takes over and does it's job, it won't have to reverse the flow in any of the oil galleys.

great post.



1. Installing a larger capacity oil pan, better designed oil pick up, and a windage tray. Killer B's set up caught my eye (http://photos.killerbmotorsport.com/GalleryThumbnails.aspx?gallery=244532).


The killer b pan is one of the only (if not the only) high capacity pan that fits with equal length headers. It should be at the top of anyones list running headers.

Prepare yourself mentally for expensive oil changes. going from 5qts synthetic to 9 quarts with a 2qt accumulator and oil cooler strats getting pricey. I went from buying oil at Autozone/Pepboys to Costco, and then to Walmart which seems to have the best pricing on oil.

[spaceywilly]

While you are at it, the oil pickup is known for cracking, causing oil starvation. KillerB makes a replacement. Pretty cheap insurance

http://www.killerbmotorsport.com/index_files/UltimateOiPickup.htm

[Rasmus]

Prepare yourself mentally for expensive oil changes.
To save money I may have to invest in two of these:
http://www.clarketooling.co.uk/tools/Oil_Drum_Dolly2.jpg

[longislandwrx]

oil by the drum... bam.

[fateo66]

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t278/RasmusHansen/Factory%20Five%20Racing%20818R/OilGalley.png
I've identified 6 easy ways to access the oil galley on an EJ. Along with the threading. I, personally, plan to use the one I circled. It's upstream from both heads, the mains (thus the rods and wristpins), and all the other access points I identified. That means if the oil accumulator takes over and does it's job, it won't have to reverse the flow in any of the oil galleys.

The M18 in the very front left is the port closes to the pump on the block, which is where I currently have my accusump plumbed into in my other car. Another option could be to plumb the oil line into the left port on the bottom of the oil pump itself (when you are looking at it face on.)

Also the OEM oil pressure sensor plug threads into another M18 port, so if anyone is looking for a good way to mount an aftermarket oil pressure sensor for an oil accumulator or gauge I would recommend going to your local junk yard and picking up a few.

[Rasmus]

Another option could be to plumb the oil line into the left port on the bottom of the oil pump itself (when you are looking at it face on.)

So...

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t278/RasmusHansen/Factory%20Five%20Racing%20818R/4ec87668-2e81-4a4d-8d20-0262b33221b0.png
here on the oil pump itself? I like that idea. As long as it doesn't interfere with the headers.

[fateo66]

Correct!

here is a Subaru PDF that should help you out.

15584

[Mechie3]

It doesn't interfere directly with the headers, but it might be close. I took one of those plugs off once to prime the pump on a brand new motor and could get to it with an adapter. I don't recall 100% how much clearance there was.

[RM1SepEx]

Prepare yourself mentally for expensive oil changes. going from 5qts synthetic to 9 quarts with a 2qt accumulator and oil cooler strats getting pricey. I went from buying oil at Autozone/Pepboys to Costco, and then to Walmart which seems to have the best pricing on oil.

And based on your Subaru experience what oil do you reccommend?

[Rasmus]

And based on your Subaru experience what oil do you reccommend?
15w-40. If you're really heating it up like at a trackday you may wish to explore 50 weight oil. 20w-50 for example.

I run Rotella T 15w-40 in my daily. I used to run 5w-30 but the motor would consume oil and start running low, changed to 40 weight and the problem went away.

[Flamshackle]

I have a larger capacity sump, oil cooler and thermostat for bypass when cold. For the 818 I will do the accusump as well I think.

[longislandwrx]

I've always run Mobile 1 5w-30 in my DD WRX. There's alot of debate over if its a good oil for a turbo car or not. All I can speak for is my own experience in that anytime I pull a valve cover off, or drop the oil pan, the motor looks brand new and has not had any issues yet at 90k miles. Still pulls very strong.

I also really like the valvoline 20-50 race oil, and used it in my rx7. I would be tempted to use it again for the track if I went that route..

[Mechie3]

I had the opposite experience with Mobil 1 in my car. It would be down a quart after a few thousand miles and an autocross. Arguing what oil is best is almost fruitless though. If it works for you, it works for you. I live Rotella T6. Haven't had any problems with that on my last engine.

[JeromeS13]

+1 for Rotella, Valvoline Premium Blue, or Delo 15w40.

[longislandwrx]

The motul guys will say motul is the best, the rotella guys will say the same. Just have an oil pan full of cool, clean, quality oil and you will be fine.

[timmy318]

The motul guys will say motul is the best, the rotella guys will say the same. Just have an oil pan full of cool, clean, quality oil and you will be fine.

Exactly!

[metalmaker12]

+1 on cool clean quality oil

[Mechie3]

Here is an interesting thread where a guy datalogged engine rpm vs oil pressure on track.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=35458621

And a pic from that thread.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b33/HvRRZ/AccusumpOilCooler1.jpg

[metalmaker12]

Royal Purple or AMSOIL which are Group IV oils, and through Scientific research are the best for the WRX/STI and other turbo cars. Motul a group V oil is also good. Mobil 1 is a III oil. But I have used many others and had good results too.

[longislandwrx]

Royal Purple or AMSOIL which are Group IV oils, and through Scientific research are the best for the WRX/STI and other turbo cars. Motul a group V oil is also good. Mobil 1 is a III oil. But I have used many others and had good results too.

can you explain what the oil groups are and their benefits? I know group V is an "esther based synthetic" and IV is a "Polyalphaolefin " but why is a IV better for the Scoob? Wikipedia only briefly touches on the groups

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_lubricants#Synthetic_Base_Stocks

[metalmaker12]

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html Heres a great link:p

It has to due with the heat the oil can reach in extreme cases and what the additives do as the break down. Some additives can clog up filters more than others due to this and cause minor oil starvation and other isssues. I would have to spend a lot of time on this. In short RP and AMSOIL are more race oils, but if you use the consumer type lines they carry it is great for street cars too. They hold up against extreme driving situations the best.

Another great street oil is Castrol SynTec European Formula 0W-30, which is a great street car oil, it has great properties and holds up very well in all its test