Body panels = bad idea

[dbjr63]

Hi all,
Am I the only one that thinks the body panel idea is a bad one? I have a large amount of experience with body panels from NASCAR short track racing. In my experiences the fiberglass\rubber\plastic\sheet metal panels seems never line up and look good (gaps). Also with the change in temperature they grow in heat and shrink in the cold. Any kind of contact can easily change the alignment of the panels, think of hitting a curb with the front nose. Also over time the panel’s pop rivets will loosen up or stretch the holes and shift and make the body look terribly cheap.
For people buying the 818R (racing), I think panels are a good idea and cheap to replace if any of you SCCA guys\women actually make contact with each other.  Remember racing is a contact sport, or at least in NASCAR short tracks it is.
But for the people buying the 818S (street version) I think people will be disappointed in how the body looks after putting together and hate it after they have some miles and wear and tear on it.
Disclaimer: I have not pre order an 818 and do not plan to into the winter of 2014, I am holding out hope for an 818 couple with a molded body (GTM style) so I can drive this as a daily driver for 9 months of the year (Boston MA).
Link to the body I use to hang every off season
http://www.fivestarbodies.com/store/index.php?p=catalog&parent=2&pg=1

Thoughts?

[Mechie3]

I'm not terribly concerned about it. Cheapness is partly in the construction. If the mfg expects you to replace panels after every season or race, they won't make them as nice to cut costs for the buyer. If they expect it to last, they can make it a higher quality part. A one piece body can loosen up and wrinkle over time just like siding on a house that is put on too tight. That same nose that gets disjointed on a bump could fracture a 1 piece molded body and cause you to replace the entire thing.

[Turboguy]

Hi all,
Am I the only one that thinks the body panel idea is a bad one?

Pretty much - yes.

[dbjr63]

I'm not terribly concerned about it. Cheapness is partly in the construction. If the mfg expects you to replace panels after every season or race, they won't make them as nice to cut costs for the buyer. If they expect it to last, they can make it a higher quality part. A one piece body can loosen up and wrinkle over time just like siding on a house that is put on too tight. That same nose that gets disjointed on a bump could fracture a 1 piece molded body and cause you to replace the entire thing.

i just thought other Factory Five cars body have a track record of holding up and the 818 will be the first to use the "panel" body method.

[Mike N]

I think this is more a case of implementing it well rather than the actual approach. Just about all production cars use urethane bumper covers attached to steel fenders etc and the alignment is typically very good. The common trick seems to be to not 'hard' attach the panels to each other but to 'pin' them together in a way that maintains the panel to panel alignment but with a small amount of movement allowed at the frame attachment points. If engineered correctly I think the individual panel approach will work extremely well.

[AZPete]

I see your point but based on my experience with Factory Five I have confidence the body panels will be fine. I trust FFR.
Pete

[PhyrraM]

Yes, this is FFRs first stab at individual panels.

Yes, I think there will be some teething problems with early kits.

Yes, I think the FFR team will learn fast, correct any issues, and be very close to OEM levels of fit in a year or so.

Yes, I think in the long run this is the proper choice for FFR to reduce it's cost of production, and indirectly, the costs of kits. The separate panels is also laying groundwork for the later body styles to be produced economically.

[bromikl]

The alternative to plastic would be... ?

Fiberglass, which has all the issues you mentioned - but worse. (Also the need for paint.)

Or steel, which you will only get on a production vehicle. (Also adds weight and expense, plus painting.)

[Samiam1017]

Dbjr63. You can't compare a five star racing panel to a street car panel. Be it a reproduction fiberglass, carbon, or plastic. Five star body's are disposable panels made to fit a variety of chassis and made to be cheap and light.

[Mechie3]

The alternative to plastic would be... ?


Carbon fiber. :D

I actually want to try my hand at making molds and CF bits when my 818 arrives. It'd be a fun way to build a new skillset.


Five star body's are disposable panels made to fit a variety of chassis and made to be cheap and light.

That's what I thought, but had no experience with them.

[Turboguy]

Hi all,
Am I the only one that thinks the body panel idea is a bad one?


You do realize that pretty much every vehicle manufactured in the entire world each year utilizes individual body panels, right?



We're not talking rocket science here.

[carbon fiber]

they're both ok if done properly. this is nothing new. saturn made the "plastic" body car years ago. they've both got good and bad assets. the multi-pc. body can be done without extra help, and would be easier to repair, and to make cf panels. (although they would be harder to get the cf to align if doing exposed cf) the one pc./2 pc. body looks better (imho), and would be easier to get aligned to the chassis(one pc. vs multiple pcs.) there are multiple types of materials being used to make cars today, plastic/urethane, fiberglass, carbon fiber, metals, etc. i think the future of automotive chassis/body mfg. will go to thermoformed/chopped cf. (like being used by lamborghini on the sesto elemento concept). stiff, light,and it removes the cost of the weaving process.

[Oppenheimer]

The example of urathane bumper to steel fender mounting on production cars is a very good one, as is the Saturn (and others) plastic paneled body panels. They've got that down, and it works. Another example that could prove the case is motorcycle body panels. Modern bikes already use the technology FFR is going to apply to cars, individual color molded plastic panels.

Bikes often add vinyl graphics overlays. which would also work on 818.

Most bikes the mounting fasteners are exposed (visible screw heads, etc). But on some bikes they do use hidden fasteners (which is what FFR will presumably use for 818).

In the past I've had bikes with horrible panel mounting (difficult to align, difficult to remove for service, etc, breaking mounting tabs), but more recent examples have been of high quality and easy to work with and with good alignment.

I think if FFR does it right (and I'm sure they will), it will be fine, and will offer significant benefits over single large panel (no paint option, lower manufacturing & shipping costs, easy to replace a single damaged panel, plus many more).

The only real downside is its more work for FFR to engineer it and work out all the kinks. That they are willing to rise to the challenge, while working out a whole bunch of other firsts, says a lot about what type of company they are.

[Xusia]

I love the idea of CF. And would happily pay more to get it! :)

[BrandonDrums]

I love the idea of CF. And would happily pay more to get it! :)

Am I wrong in remembering that FFR offered carbon fiber bodies for some of their other models as an upgrade? If anyone knows more about it, were there significant weight savings over the fiberglass versions?

CF is cool but for body paneling it doesn't have much to offer over fiberglass from what I understand. CF is great because of it's structural strength but as paneling I think it's actually heavier than plastic and not much lighter than fiberglass....and harder to work with.

I'd rather have certain parts of the chassis be CF to save some real weight and keep the body fiberglass to save cost.

[carbon fiber]

i love exposed cf bodies on cars like pagani, koenisegg, bugatti. but yes, there's not too much difference in weight, and the fg is much more flexible. cf tends to crack easier and doesn't spread the load of an impact as well. it likes to shatter and fragment. it works to combine cf as the first 2-3 cosmetic layers and fg for the remaining layers. woven fg back layers will make it lighter because there's less layers/resin for the same strength vs. chopped/stranded fg, and keeps it closer to all cf weight. making a cf part that has cosmetic quality has to be resin infused or autoclaved. thats were it gets expensive to produce over a wet layup.

[Xusia]

FFR offered CF bodies for the Mk I Roadster. At that time, they claimed they weighed significantly less. I don't know much more. For me it's more the look than any weight savings...

[RM1SepEx]

CF is much lighter almost 1/2 in most apps
If they use plastic similar to Fiero panels they held up wonderfully even with slight dings that deflect the panel with no damage!
almost all vehicles use smaller panels

[Mechie3]

Some vehicles actually look odd without panels, like they're toys.

[CHOTIS BILL]

When I was making bodies for my DSR out of FG they would weigh about 55 pounds. I made one using 2 layers of CF and one inner layer of Kevlar and it weighed 35 pounds.
YMMV

Bill Lomenick

[skullandbones]

The new vettes with their exotic materials is probably an extreme example but it is the direction body technology is going. When I picked up a complete front fender of the vette and it felt like holding a wrist watch or maybe a quail egg, it's pretty counter intuitive. So FFR is heading in the right direction but somewhere in between the fiberglass and exotic stuff. After all, they are tasked with a tremendous quality vs. cost balancing act. WEK.

[Samiam1017]

Comparing the weight of a new corvette fender to a quail egg is something we will probably never ever ever hear again in our life's. so I joy it!

[Jeff Kleiner]

FFR offered CF bodies for the Mk I Roadster. At that time, they claimed they weighed significantly less. I don't know much more. For me it's more the look than any weight savings...

Correct, back in the day FFR offered a CF body option. It was more of a science experiment than anything IMHO; The $3,000+ option saved ~ 30 pounds; a vinylester fiberglass Mk1 body shell weighed in at about 110 pounds vs. approximately for the carbon fiber version. If memory serves they built somewhere around 30 of them with one being the infamous X car that Dave flipped and then went on to win King of the Hill with at RunN'Gun in '98. Regarding the look---the CF roadster bodies were rough with a capital "R"!

Jeff

[ehansen007]

FFR offered CF bodies for the Mk I Roadster. At that time, they claimed they weighed significantly less. I don't know much more. For me it's more the look than any weight savings...

Yes, and with that they had little success with making any money at it while being satisfied with the outcome. Carbon fiber is fine in sheets and relatively flat surfaces but where you separate the amateurs from the pros is with complex large forms and not having air bubbles, etc. Even when they got it right they felt that the CF was so thin and rigid, it almost felt cheap. So Yes, it would look cool but I think it could be done properly by certain firms but generally you have to have plans to order more than one since setting up the molds is expensive. I would imagine some might start with the hood and decklid like most imports do and go from there. I would love to see someone do it but while CF is light, it's also very brittle! Seeing that stuff fly off of F1 cars with the slightest bump is proof! If it's just the look, they have some decent wraps that kinda look real but they aren't cheap either. I can't wait to see some of the variations of this car when it comes out.

[Xusia]

It's not brittle, per se, it's inflexible. So when subjected to forces that exceed it's tolerance, yeah it breaks (rather than deforms). Oh wait... That's the technical DEFINITION of brittle!

But in all seriousness, I think this will be less of an issue with the 818 because the body would be composed of multiple panels, with the seams providing some stress relief. FFR is already setting up mold for the plastic panels. Could those be used for CF panels as well?? If so, the cost difference would just the difference in materials and time.

[RM1SepEx]

I think you will find that the processes are different enough that the molding equipment for thermoformed panels is not compatable with CF panel MFG

[carbon fiber]

in reference to the comment on weight, you get little weight savings per cost with cf. most major reductions in weight come with thin race bodies, not something you'd want to run on the street. as far as cf/thermoform comment, there are differences in plastic thermoform and what lamborghini is using to make cf tub/main body shells. but, it's still material being formed under heat and pressure. i'm not sure what term they use, but still similar principle. as far as the cf parts made by ffr, they are doing wet layups, with vinyl ester resins and some with compression molds. not the proper way to do it. epoxy resins and vacuum infusion or prepeg cf with the autoclave process is the only way to get the proper resin to cf ratio and nice cosmetic look that is desired.