Symth Performance G3R vs. FFR WRX

[Doc_FFR]

Smyth Performance G3R vs. FFR WRX

Someone had to start the comparison.

I was an avid follower of the Smyth project since its inception. I love mid engined cars and Mark’s use of a donor car and “green” diesel seemed very attractive. Several things killed my enthusiasm, however:

1) The initial body sketches looked cool, but the final product doesn’t look nearly as good (IMHO)
2) The Volkswagen Jetta isn’t a very reliable car to start with
3) Mark said his fans shouldn’t expect the final product to handle like an FFR

Now for the FFR WRX

If the kit costs $10,000 and the final product is supposed to be only $15,000 then you’ll have to find a donor for less than $5,000 (See what I did there? :))
A quick search of auto trader shows ONE (wrecked) WRX in the entire USA that goes for less than five grand.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searchresults.jsp?doors=&systime=&position=top&model=IMPWRX&search_lang=en&start_year=1981&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&search_type=both&distance=0&min_price=&drive=&rdm=1297519771239&marketZipError=false&advanced=&fuel=&keywords_display=&sownerid=63544189&lastBeginningStartYear=1981&end_year=2012&showZipError=n&make2=&certified=&engine=&car_year=2003&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&body_code=0&transmission=&ct=u&default_sort=newsortbyprice_DESC&max_mileage=&address=30047&color=&sort_type=priceASC&rdpage=thumb&max_price=5000&awsp=false&make=SUB&seller_type=b&num_records=25#288249284
So how is that going to work?

I'm guessing you may end up using some of the interior bits of the WRX in the completion of the FFR WRX. Dash, steering wheel, seats, etc. I've very interested in this project but I'm trying to keep my expectations low as I was burned once before...

So what's everyone thinking about the two mid engined, RWD, removable top, donor car Smith choices?

[keys2heaven]

Yeah, I see the fancy math there Doc. You and I saw the same ad. Looks like slim pickens for a tuner donor in that price range.

[RedJoker]

This should be a lively thread. As Beta #3 of the G3F, I can say agree with #1, i'm not sure about #2 and I understand #3. Now, I have a FFR roadster but I want to build something that I can drive everyday. This is where the two cars will diverge. This is why people have both a sports car and sedan to drive to work.

Also, the G3F is way ahead in the game. Timing is always the great unknown in product launches. Some great products didn't make it because they were simply late too the game and others fail because they were simply too early. I won't even venture a guess here.

I will reiterate, though, that I view these cars are different enough to compliment each other. I am extremely interested to have a car that handles like my roadster but has something over my head and is relatively cheap. I would love to have both in my garage.

[UpstateCobraGuy]

Here are two in the Albany, NY area

http://albany.craigslist.org/cto/2189925806.html

http://albany.craigslist.org/cto/2201570769.html

Pat

[csx2000_4000]

I douted the 15K without even looking for a donor. Anybody thats built a FFR knows how things add up that you change, don't like or just don't have.

[Olli]

I still want to know how FFR plans on making the WRX drivetrain mid-engine.

Olli

[Hoosier]

Neither will be AWD :(

[Doc_FFR]

Also, the G3F is way ahead in the game. Timing is always the great unknown in product launches. Some great products didn't make it because they were simply late too the game and others fail because they were simply too early. I won't even venture a guess here.

I'm thinking more HD DVD vs. Blue-Ray with one eventually getting phased out completely. I just hope Mark hasn't put too much money into the thing.

[RedJoker]

I'm thinking more HD DVD vs. Blue-Ray with one eventually getting phased out completely. I just hope Mark hasn't put too much money into the thing.

I dunno... I can see two different target audiences for these. I haven't heard yet, will the FFR be a daily driver?

As a track car, absolutely I would go with Factory Five but I already have one of those, I need a daily driver.

No doubt it will be interesting. :cool:

[D2W]

I watched Mark's progress from day one and can say it was an incredible ride but I have become dissappointed along the way. Some of that was the design, and some of that was me wanting more of a performance oriented car. I gotta say now I understand why Dave wasn't thrilled about Mark's project, (I actually thought this was the reason all along), and I understand why Mark is working toward a greener, high mileage daily driver. I believe there is room for both cars as this section of the market is wide open and these two cars appear to be at opposite ends. I love the price point, so pick an awesome looking body with a removeable top Dave and I'll be in line.
DP

[mrmustang]

I still want to know how FFR plans on making the WRX drivetrain mid-engine.

Olli

X2 here Olli, X2.........18 FFR's, maybe, just maybe #19 will be the new WRX based kit,but only time will tell.

Bill S.

[Dave Smith]

I guess this was inevitable. You guys may notice that I have not written anything about what my brother is doing. I think for now I will continue that. I will only say that the project that he is working on is light years away from anything we would do. I would not make a car that way.

Ollie: RWD
Donor: I think we paid $5,500 bucks for our WRX, clean, low mileage. Keep in mind the Subaru parts bin is not limited to the WRX, but includes the other models down the line.
Cost: Paint is huge and trying to make paint-free gel-coated panels is so key but it's also tolerances that hand-made parts cannot (save for a very few guys out there) really be made to fit. With our corp partners at solidworks we can do this (i think).
Performance vs. daily driver. FFR's are as close to daily drivers as kit cars have ever gotten. I could give you over 1,000 names of people who have more than 25,000 miles on their FFR's. I don't buy the argument that anyone really wants to build a daily driver kit car. a Special car is one you want to use all the time, but, daily driver? Hmmm.
More later on this and I really would prefer to not compare anything FFR does with that effort for now.

Dave Smith
FFR001

[canuck1]

For what it's worth (not much, trust me), I think Mark's G3F may fill a niche, but I'm not sure if it's large enought to support enough sales to make it a profitable venture.

I have thought it might be a cool build to do with my now 14 year old son (he's been a great help on the roadster). If the safety factor is high enough, I thought it might make a nice first car for him. fun to build, work on and affordable to drive.

Unfortunately this is an ultra-competitive market segment, so making it work will be a challenge only someone with Mark's brain could achieve! :D

I need to learn more about the WRX car before a fair comparison can be made.

Sean

[D2W]

Dave to say I'm excited about your project is a huge understatement. Light, economical, fun, and fast. Put a great looking body on it with a top that is ready to go and you will have a winner. Can't wait to see your progress.
DP

[Someday I Suppose]

Last week I caught the episoide of Horse Power where they put the Coyote into the 33. One of the interesting things for me was the inverview with Dave where he talked about his resistance to doing a 33 because Factory Five was always about cars that handled great, and Jim convinced him he could be a 33 that handled like a sports car. I guess that resonates with me in this next car. I think it is less about a WRX donor then it is about building a killer 4cyl turbo mid engine sports car, and the Sube power plant is probably the best choice to fit the bill.

I'm very much looking forward to seeing how it all comes together, the idea of paint free fel coat panels alone has my interest.


-Scott

[FFRWRX]

I too was very much interested in the Smyth car and have followed it since day 1 (haven't posted anything about it though). Also, I was pretty excited about it until I saw the latest pictures, then I thought...well...it looks good, but it just looks like a fairly ordinary car. Don't know what I expected, but I suppose I expected something a little more exotic. If I'm going to build a car I don't want it being "ordinary" looking. Oh, I did build one of the first FFR cars way back in '96 (and way up in Canada!).

As for the Smyth car having the jump on FFR, that's true, but you have one person against a fully up and running company with a very good track record and a very comprehensive set of resources. I do hope Mark makes a go of it with all the time and money he has in it, but I think he is in for a bit of a struggle now. I have 2 project cars on the go now, so the timing should be good to have those done and be ready for a new project just as the new FFR car is ready for me!

Rick

[steno]

To be honest, I'd build a car that was much more like the original smyth concept cars than what it ended up to be.

[redsharK]

The turbo talons, eclipses and lasers that are commonly referred to as DSM's are much more plentiful and cost effective then the wonderful WRX.
Plenty of decent running DSM's can be found for well under $5000. huge following and 400hp can be reliably made from the stock long block with a 16g turbo.

red

[Doc_FFR]

I guess this was inevitable. You guys may notice that I have not written anything about what my brother is doing. I think for now I will continue that. I will only say that the project that he is working on is light years away from anything we would do. I would not make a car that way.

I started this thread, although I think it would have been started anyhow. I do feel like I should apologize Mark if this has caused any unpleasantness. For what it's worth, I know you're going to make a great product and I'm looking for to seeing more about it soon.

[Rich Drake]

The point that seems to have been missed in the Smyth/FFR debate (if you want to call it that) is MARKETING. Give two identical products to two different people to market and you will see entirely different results. We are car guys and we'll argue all day about the merits of one design versus the other - and no one would be wrong. The reason I (and what, 5000 other people?) bought a Factory Five was DAVE SMITH. Unless Mark brings someone in who can generate excitement like Dave can, I don't see the Smyth car getting much beyond the current following. This is not meant to disparage Mark - who is very talented - but to make a point about the business side of these cars.

[Rob J]

Subaru WRX underpinning excite me a tad bit more than Jetta TDI underpinnings. Just saying...

It's kind of like would you rather go to Sizzler, or Ruth Chris.

[Evan78]

You can purchase early WRX's in good running condition with a clean body for $6-$7k. Sell what you don't need and be close to $5k. Or you could probably purchase all the parts and spend less than $5k. I'd go for a 2.5L anyway that became available 2004-2006 depending on the model (STi, WRX, Legacy, etc).

[GAThunder019]

This link shows the Design 'Mule' for the G3F:
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3850096/2011-smyth-g3f

Interesting to see it taking shape... (o;

[Roadster]

Hey olli. Mid engine and a "donor" concept! Extra parts in the kit? LOL

[Benji]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet but, whilst it may 'only' be rear wheel drive, if it does actually manage to meet the target weight and target price, this is going to be a killer blow to the Murtaya....

Under cutting the weight by some 200Kg and a THIRD of the price (give the current exchange rate), if it looks anything like the sketched picture or the K1-Attack the only point 'negative' against the Murtaya will be that it's 'only' rear wheel drive.....

[Evan78]

I don't see it being 1/3 the price of the Murtaya. Their site (http://www.murtayasportscars.co.uk/models.html) is pretty sparse on details, but I see they're cheapest kit is 13,000 gbp, which is $21k. So the kit would be double the price, or if you assume the cost of the donor parts to be equivalent, the percentage difference narrows. If the donor is $5k, the FF would be $15k and Murtaya $26k. Big difference, but not 3X as far as I see. I would think shipping and import costs would be some factor too since FF is in the US and Murtaya is in UK.

[Flyinglow]

I still want to know how FFR plans on making the WRX drivetrain mid-engine.

Olli

Nothing too special about doing this. Many VW vans, bugs and a few ghia's have been transplanting with scooby engines, using mainly ej20. Curious more on which powerplant as in can a 2.5 be used and how big of a turbo as far as room. Is top intercooler still going to be needed or does chasis design allow for something different? I can see a lot of fun at a low cost if a 2.5 with just a little bigger turbo and a cobb tune is slapped in.

[Evan78]

I still want to know how FFR plans on making the WRX drivetrain mid-engine.

OlliA friend of mine that knows Subarus a whole lot better than I do said you just pull the center diff from the trans and block the hole for the tailshaft. You'd then just be driving the front wheels.

Now take that configuration (engine in front of trans) and put it behind the passenger compartment instead of in front and you've got a mid-rear RWD setup.

[labmonkee]

Owning a MKV gti, I can see the appeal of using VW hardware, but the two cars discussed are completely different ideologically, approached in completely different styles. As such I don't think a comparison can be made (despite the similarities on the surface).
I also loved the idea of owning a WRX, but went with a GTI for interior build quality. A FFR with WRX running gear is an interesting addition to the FFR stable. Big turbo, lightweight, well balanced - an affordable lotus with superior performance!

I agree with Mark - build a great car, that you never want to get out of - and there's your daily driver.

P.s. Mark when are you going to make a RHD option box on the roadster order form for us overseas fans :)

[Benji]

I don't see it being 1/3 the price of the Murtaya. Their site (http://www.murtayasportscars.co.uk/models.html) is pretty sparse on details, but I see they're cheapest kit is 13,000 gbp, which is $21k. So the kit would be double the price, or if you assume the cost of the donor parts to be equivalent, the percentage difference narrows. If the donor is $5k, the FF would be $15k and Murtaya $26k. Big difference, but not 3X as far as I see. I would think shipping and import costs would be some factor too since FF is in the US and Murtaya is in UK.

Sure, 13k PLUS VAT which currently sits at 20%, so now you are at £15.6k or $23.1k and you haven't even started looking at the doner yet and good luck finding a DECENT doner for $5k, £5k maybe will get you a decent 'classic' shape Impreza so now you are already knocking on the door of $30k, then you've got to think about paint and various other paraphernalia and if you what that 2004-2006 WRX or STI, you can easily kiss good bye to being below $45k (complete).

Like I said, this very much depends on how realistic FFR's goals are with 1800lbs and $15,000 complete....

[Evan78]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I was assuming you were referring to the FF car being a threat to Murtaya's overseas sales since they don't even have a US distributer, do they? I've only heard of a couple in the U.S. Where do most of the Murtaya buyers live? I was assuming in the UK or Europe. I don't know anything about what people in other countries have to pay for importing U.S. goods.

I was also assuming that the donor parts would be roughly equivalent. Aside from a driveshaft, diff, and a couple half-shafts, wouldn't the Murtaya require about the same parts?

[Benji]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I was assuming you were referring to the FF car being a threat to Murtaya's overseas sales since they don't even have a US distributer, do they? I've only heard of a couple in the U.S. Where do most of the Murtaya buyers live? I was assuming in the UK or Europe. I don't know anything about what people in other countries have to pay for importing U.S. goods.

I was also assuming that the donor parts would be roughly equivalent. Aside from a driveshaft, diff, and a couple half-shafts, wouldn't the Murtaya require about the same parts?

It's not an arguement at all just discussions :)

I'm sorry, I haven't exactly clarified exactly what I was getting at, which was just an interesting comparison, you are completely right that what I am saying is completely null and void if you were to consider the FFR car as a competitor to the Murtaya in the UK (where most of its customer base is I would imagine) or the Murtaya as a competitor to the FFR car in the US.

Import tax/etc going in either direction just gets silly although there is/was an 'official' US importer of the Murtaya (http://www.murtayausa.com/) but as you can see this site is currently 'down', maybe permanently?

As for the required parts from the donor I think you are spot on.

[Evan78]

The Murtaya looks great on paper, except for the price and lack of U.S. support. I've been following Michael Palotas' blog (http://murtaya.com/Diary.shtml) for a couple years and it's the best source of U.S. related info I've seen. I was hoping this FFR was going to be 4wd, but some cheaper, smaller, lighter version of the GTM would be pretty awesome. I was thinking some LS powered Locost might be my next car, but this FFR car might take the place of that dream.

[PhyrraM]

First, I admit I've never driven the Murtaya.

However, because it maintains the Symetrical AWD, that means that the motor is still hung out in front of the front wheel centerline. Subaru has done an excellent job of avoiding understeer because of this, but only on it's most sporty models. And even then, under power they still lean towards understeer. I would be concerned about how to fight the natural tendency towards understeer when you lose about 1000 pounds, mostly from the rear end, not over the motor.

I think by keeping the new FFR car mid-engined and RWD, you win the understeer battle by not having to fighting it.

[RedJoker]

I'm interested to see more about this car. I had a stock '04 STI and the amount of understeer absolutely drove me nuts. It had more understeer than any of the other cars I've autocrossed. In conversations with other STI hotshoes, I got some tips on what to do to reduce it but they admitted that, out of the box, it was incredibly annoying. With FFR's adjustments, that will hopefully be a thing of the past. :)

[Benji]

The Murtaya looks great on paper, except for the price and lack of U.S. support. I've been following Michael Palotas' blog (http://murtaya.com/Diary.shtml) for a couple years and it's the best source of U.S. related info I've seen. I was hoping this FFR was going to be 4wd, but some cheaper, smaller, lighter version of the GTM would be pretty awesome. I was thinking some LS powered Locost might be my next car, but this FFR car might take the place of that dream.

He's the first person I thought of when I saw the announcement, had the FFR car been AWD I think he would be sick to the bone, that being said I still feel really sorry for him for the way he has been treated.

If FFR can keep to the $9900 kit price and provide even just a GOOD looking car with good handling I think they eat away huge chunks of the budget kit car market. If they can provide a GREAT looking car with GREAT handling at that price then....

I wonder who will be the first to find room to slip an LS lump in there, I don't know how long the Impreza block is but with 2 less cylinders length wise it's off to a good start...

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

If FFR pulls this off, and comes up with an attractive shape (you can put me down for another vote for something in K-1 Attack looks department) I see no way they can lose on this.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j88/vacextar/k1attackr22.jpg

You can see more Attack photos on my website in my sig if you are not familiar with this car.

With a good-looking hard-top that real people can fit in, I think it's exactly what the kit car world has been waiting for. Aggressive styling, performance to match the look, inexpensive kit, inexpensive donor, inexpensive to complete (no $10k paint job needed) tons of performance upgrades already available, hopefully simple to assemble!.......IMO, this could be what the Attack should have been in the first place. I'm very excited about this. I wish this was available yesterday, but at the same time, I hope FFR takes their time on this one to get it right. If they do, I can see this being something that turns the whole kit car industry on it's ear, and could easily out-sell the roadsters.

If I can realistically build something that looks like the Attack, has performance/handling of something like an Elise or Exige, and do it for under $20k parts/materials cost, (just a fraction more than the cost of just the LS7 engine for a GTM build :cool:)........ I can see building a ton of turn-keys for a ton of happy customers!

Note to FFR: Please do not make this car look "happy". Does the Attack look happy? (ok....maybe happy to eat you for dinner?) The pencil sketch reminds me a bit of the Mazda Furai.....no complaints!

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j88/vacextar/112_0712_07zmazda_furai_conceptfront_view.jpg

[Evan78]

First, I admit I've never driven the Murtaya.

However, because it maintains the Symetrical AWD, that means that the motor is still hung out in front of the front wheel centerline. Subaru has done an excellent job of avoiding understeer because of this, but only on it's most sporty models. And even then, under power they still lean towards understeer. I would be concerned about how to fight the natural tendency towards understeer when you lose about 1000 pounds, mostly from the rear end, not over the motor.

I think by keeping the new FFR car mid-engined and RWD, you win the understeer battle by not having to fighting it.I've never driven a Murtaya either, but I've owned a few turbo Subarus and have some track and auto-x experience and I can tell you that they can be made to be pretty neutral cars. Just like virtually every other car, they have a tendency to understeer when stock, you just make the typical suspension adjustments to dial out the understeer. I'm sure you're correct that it's probably a lot easier to eliminate understeer in the setup FFR is using. I would think the new challenge would be to keep the rear end stable. What I love about a 4wd car is how easy it is to correct mistakes and make the car do what you want.

[Benji]

Yep, exactly what Shane said.

At this price I can see there being plenty of 'his and hers', plenty of daily drivers and plenty of people having 'road' and 'race' versions!

Please oh please can we see a K1 Attack lookalike!

[Evan78]

I wonder who will be the first to find room to slip an LS lump in there, I don't know how long the Impreza block is but with 2 less cylinders length wise it's off to a good start...
It sure would be nice if they can make it easy to use an LS and a Subaru or Porsche trans. I wonder what the weight difference is between an aluminum LS and a turbo Subaru setup.

[labmonkee]

+1 for shane's comments. The attack looks mean. The devil will be in the head + tail lights. These can make or break a car. It is the thing I don't like on the mutaya. I hate when they add bugeye HID's to a standard light housing - design the lights at the same time, don't try to make the fit in as an afterthought. The attack vs mutaya is a good illustration of this.

[Evan78]

I would expect the lights to be somewhat similar to the GTM, at least in basic construction.

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

I would expect the lights to be somewhat similar to the GTM, at least in basic construction.

I hope not. That would require a headlight bucket and plexi/lexan lens, which heads more toward complicated and away from simple. I like simple. The Attack uses the exact same Hella projector and high-beam units as the GTM, but they are installed into a small "pod" that attaches to the body. Since there is no seperate lens/cover needed, you just pop the headlights into the pod, attach the pod to the body and you're done. On the GTM, you have the issue of sealing the lens to the body, and then sealing the back of the headlight to the headlight bucket. If you do not do this, your headlight buckets will constantly have either dust or water in them, and require you to be able to remove the lens, clean the bucket out and re-install the lens. That gets old really fast. If FFR is going to keep this car at the price point they've indicated, they're going to have to do whatever they can to simplify EVERYTHING.

IMO, even though the Attack headlights are much simpler, they are also more attractive than the GTM. You don't always have to compromise appearance to gain simplicity. No reason they can't design the hood so that the headlight "pod/bucket" is actually part of the outside form of the hood (think of melding the Attack pods with the form around the lights on the Mazda Furai), and then bond a fg sub-structure to the back side of the hood (like the GTM has bonded to the back of it's hood). There would be no seperate headlight structure, housing, bucket or lens needed......you just pop the Hella units into the back of the hood and you're done! If look at how the lights are built into the Furai, there is no reason this can't be made to look very nice and still be very simple.

I think this same thinking is going to have to continue thru the rest of the car, and they are going to have to stay focused on keeping the whole thing simple, inexpensive and "buildable".....and not fall into the trap of trying to please everyone by adding more and more "options" to this car that will make the car more expensive, complicated, heavy and time consuming to build.....roll-up windows, complicated doors, 20 different engine/trans combos, etc. I would also agree with the idea of making the car more of a targa-top with removable roof panel than a roadster with removable hard-top. This would allow the roll bar to be integral to the frame, and the removable targe top could be a very, very simple 1-piece fg part with a couple of simple latches to install/remove.

[Imp]

I also look forward to hearing the details on this new exciting development.

As someone said, donors for $5k can be had. For those that don't know, there's a vast wealth of knowledge on these cars/engines/tuning on the internet (NASIOC/IWSTI, etc...). The EJ series of Subaru engines have been in existence since the 90's. Just like the roadster, sure, you can get the oldest most basic engine for the least amount of money, or you can just order up a crate engine, and watch the costs skyrocket. Same can be said for Subarus. Parts/Donors are plentiful and can be as inexpensive as you want it to be (with the tradeoff in performance).

Here's my question for the FFR WRX developers: when you say Mid Engine... is that in front of the driver or behind? It could mean either.

Having had many Subarus in my life (from old early 80's, to the 2.5RS, WRX Wagon and Turbo Baja) I am completely going to follow this with interest. Those cars are some of the easiest to work on... comes from the rallying roots where everything has to be accessible to fix quickly on the stages.

--kC

[Benji]

Shane is on the money again, to keep to this price they're going to have to keep things simple, lets hope this means less less parts, easier to build :)

Whilst mid engined can mean front or rear, I would imagine for simplicities sake it's using the Subaru gearbox converted to be in a mid rear configuration.

[Evan78]

Here's my question for the FFR WRX developers: when you say Mid Engine... is that in front of the driver or behind? It could mean either.
That's a good question, I'd like to know too. I somehow had it in my head that it was mid-rear setup, but now that I've reread the announcement, I realize that they only say mid-engine, rear wheel drive.

You must be kC from nasioc, right?

[Flyinglow]

One thing I hope is this has a fluid look to it, not sharp edges in the design like the rally lancias have. The look of the attack is very nice, and something similar would be nice or that of an exige.

[oldguy668]

I sure hope the shape isn't something that over 40 fat guys will generally be excluded. Why not something similar to this, scary fast but good for a trip to Home Depot...

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRNoCDXOOwiYHRUTCuKl0lcUNqimCoZ0 Oasc8_MbU-QKKaxjf4u

[jmimac351]

Dave, this is a very interesting concept. It being RWD (not AWD) is a plus in my book. I owned a '02 WRX and thought it was a great car. It lacked some top end from what I assumed were drivetrain losses from the AWD based on the hp it supposedly had.

Can you tell us about the suspension geometry? Will there be pickup points for adjustable swaybars? If you are targeting an Exige then it's gotta be right on... OEM-ish in feel. I'm picturing putting a cage in something like this, dialing up the boost, and kicking the Miata to the curb.

[Benji]

I'm not entirely sure how (using the Impreza boxer engine and the gearbox) it could ever be mid-front? Maybe I've missed something?

[Brad]

I'm not entirely sure how (using the Impreza boxer engine and the gearbox) it could ever be mid-front? Maybe I've missed something?

Assumingly not using the front diff at all, and diverting power 100% to the rear diff. I'm sure it can be done by fudging with the center diff somehow (Much like the STI DCCD, but full rear, and permanent).

[Benji]

Assumingly not using the front diff at all, and diverting power 100% to the rear diff. I'm sure it can be done by fudging with the center diff somehow (Much like the STI DCCD, but full rear, and permanent).

I guess if you kept the engine in front (but behind the front wheels) and put 100% of the power out through the rear of the box sort of like a Skyline GTS, I guess it's technically Mid-engined, rear wheel drive.

I wouldn't know which would be the simplist and most preferred method but I'm guessing mid-rear.

As far as I understand how DCCD works, it DOESN'T adjust how much power is sent to the rear, it only ever adjust how much the rear is allowed to slip in relation to the front wheels or the other way round.

[Evan78]

PPG makes a conversion spool for RWD:
http://www.ppgearbox.com.au/page.asp?parentid=3&parent2id=14&parent3id=31&productid=72

I believe there's alternatives to the PPG piece, but I've never had a strong desire to ditch my 4wd so I haven't paid too much attention.

I recently came across a kit from Bremar Auto that converts to FWD, or RWD if you put the trans in the rear:
http://www.bremarauto.com/products/subaru-2wd-conversion-kit/

[Benji]

Yep, I guess those would be the key in either application, I guess we'll know immediately when the chassis is shown.

It would be a shame to keep the engine up front and NOT keep the AWD though...

[PhyrraM]

Locking the center diff will provide even distribution of power to either output. It's the exact same procedure to make it 'FWD' for a rear/mid engine as it is to make it 'RWD' for a front/mid engine, the only variable would be which drive output you choose to 'disconnect'.

Considering that FFR seems to concentrate on the chassis and body, I would fathom a guess that they are planning on using somebodies 'off the shelf' FWD conversion and working on the price through quantity.

Also now would be a good time to make FFR aware, if they are not, that the STI 6-speed would need different parts than the WRX 5 speeds. I, personally, don't see a need for the expense and weight of the 6speed with a target weight of 1800 pounds.

[PhyrraM]

..........It would be a shame to keep the engine up front and NOT keep the AWD though...

That would keep the engine in front of the front wheels. With a target weight of 1800lbs, I think that would play hell with the balance of the car. Now, if it was a dedicated dragger........

[Benji]

That would keep the engine in front of the front wheels. With a target weight of 1800lbs, I think that would play hell with the balance of the car. Now, if it was a dedicated dragger........

I hear ya, though it seems to work okay in the Murtaya which is supposed to be 925Kg (but in reality it's more like 1000kg+), ideally the 5sp box will be used as I hear it is lighter but weaker although, with that being said you are taking off potentially some 600Kg from the weight the gearbox will 'see' and also you are converting it to RWD so it should be significantly stronger then in it's OEM application.

No need for the 6sp with it's extra weight unless you were going for insane power, I wonder why the Ultima/GTM/SL-C/other mid-rear cars that need a transaxle aren't using this box converted to 'FWD', I wonder what power the 5sp and 6sp boxes can handle in this format in a car weighing 1000Kg or less....

[Hiryu]

The Murtaya looks great on paper, except for the price and lack of U.S. support. I've been following Michael Palotas' blog (http://murtaya.com/Diary.shtml) for a couple years and it's the best source of U.S. related info I've seen.

Wow...I heard news of this potentially great new car and came here, but I wasn't expecting to see my name...scary the information you can find on the Internet :eek:


Now for the FFR WRX

If the kit costs $10,000 and the final product is supposed to be only $15,000 then you’ll have to find a donor for less than $5,000 (See what I did there? :))


It probably shouldn't count, but I got my WRX for $4500; runs great and has 160k on it (stage 2). OK, I'll admit I bought it from my dad (and even forced him to take another $500 over his price; I really wanted to keep a great car in the family). :) But yeah, depending on how much of the WRX will be needed, you can sell off a lot of the extra parts (at least that was also the claim by the original Murtaya builders, too--but they also had access to a lot of grey-market WRX's from Japan, etc.).


I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I was assuming you were referring to the FF car being a threat to Murtaya's overseas sales since they don't even have a US distributer, do they? I've only heard of a couple in the U.S. Where do most of the Murtaya buyers live? I was assuming in the UK or Europe. I don't know anything about what people in other countries have to pay for importing U.S. goods.

There are two Murtayas in the US, and two in Canada (both owned by the same guy, though only one is builst, as far as I know). The vast majority of Murtayas are in the the UK/Europe, with some in New Zealand, Australia, and maybe a few in the Middle East. But yeah, since the original Murtaya company (Adrenaline Motorsports) got replaced by the new one (Murtaya Sports Cars), there hasn't been any Murtayas (kit or turn-key) sent to the US; the US distributor is also basically non-existent (though he is trying to sell the US demo Murtaya).


Import tax/etc going in either direction just gets silly although there is/was an 'official' US importer of the Murtaya (http://www.murtayausa.com/) but as you can see this site is currently 'down', maybe permanently?

Pretty sure Murtaya USA won't be doing much business in the near future (especially since the guy running it lives and currently resides in Ireland...but I won't get into that).


First, I admit I've never driven the Murtaya.

However, because it maintains the Symetrical AWD, that means that the motor is still hung out in front of the front wheel centerline. Subaru has done an excellent job of avoiding understeer because of this, but only on it's most sporty models. And even then, under power they still lean towards understeer. I would be concerned about how to fight the natural tendency towards understeer when you lose about 1000 pounds, mostly from the rear end, not over the motor.

I think by keeping the new FFR car mid-engined and RWD, you win the understeer battle by not having to fighting it.

The Murtaya design was able to dial out a bit of the inherent understeer (not as much as they might have bragged about), and owners who have taken theirs to the track (as well as the new Murtaya company) have found that they can dial out 'all' understeer by adding a rear sway bar (which the standard road Murtaya doesn't have). Though I haven't had personal experience to verify this (I've only driven the prototype Murtaya on back roads, and my Murtaya...well, I've only driven mine out of the shop long enough to find out the clutch was slipping and...well, I won't get into that, either).



But enough of the Murtaya--I'm very excited for this new roadster, too--I can't wait to hear more. In fact, I'd love to render some designs once they give out more dimensions...Though it sounds like the K1 look is already the favorite.

I also hope they can keep the price down; these things can get expensive quickly...Then again, I might be jaded from my experience with such things in the past--though if there is a company that can pull this off successfully, I'm betting it will be FF (another positive about this car, in my opinion). If they hit the price point and these are road legal, I don't know why they wouldn't sell like hotcakes.

If I ever get/finish off the Murtaya, I hope one of these will be next...

Mike

[Benji]

Welcome Mike, I was wondering how long it would be before you turned up :)

As a question for anyone, is there an application that would be easy to learn and allow me to attempt to design a concept for this new car?

[Evan78]

Wow...I heard news of this potentially great new car and came here, but I wasn't expecting to see my name...scary the information you can find on the Internet :eek:
I almost replied to your latest email update to let you know your name came up. Glad you made it over here.


(though he is trying to sell the US demo Murtaya).Any idea how much he's asking for it? Not interested, just curious.

[Imp]

That's a good question, I'd like to know too. I somehow had it in my head that it was mid-rear setup, but now that I've reread the announcement, I realize that they only say mid-engine, rear wheel drive.

You must be kC from nasioc, right?

Guilty as charged.

Thought about this last night a bit more and dreams of FFR danced around in my head.

One of the really nice things about this is most of EJ series of engines are interchangable with most mounting points almost the same.

I would even consider dropping in the 165hp EJ Phase II 2.5 for it to start out.
a) cheaper
b) lighter
c) no boost (or lag)
d) plentiful
e) better gas mileage
f) better chance at passing emissions (if needed in more strict states for kit cars)
g) quieter
h) no need for intercooler and related plumbing/ductwork (lighter?)

165 hp in an 1800lb package? Still would be a hoot with a .091 hp/weight ratio, with the 'stock' WRX engine at 227 hp and a .126 hp/weight... which of course would go higher with ECU tuning and free-er flowing exhaust, etc...

--kC

[Mark Smith]

The ultimate win/win/win:)

I expect great cars from smyth , LM and factory five. As a 50% owner of ffr and a major owner of LM I hope all these wonderful concepts are hits. I feel good when a buyer walks in to any of these three companies and trusts us with their dream. different companies with the same promise.

Whichever cars the market decides to buy I just hope they go through LM, smyth or ffr. What a huge market the car business encompasses...the diesel guys are different from the wrx guys and the gtm guys are different from the rally fighter guys...we love them all.

The wonderful thing about loving what you do as a car designer/builder is that you are happy even making one(or 36 betas... ). So if you want a g3f you better get one now...it looks like Dave may be making me rich with the income from the wrx car and I can go back to designing diesel go fast boats;)

In all seriousness I amreally excited to see what the car specs are over the next year and I cant wait to see the first designs.

mark smith

[Hiryu]

Welcome Mike, I was wondering how long it would be before you turned up :)

As a question for anyone, is there an application that would be easy to learn and allow me to attempt to design a concept for this new car?

Thanks for the warm welcome--As for some modeling/3D rendering software, Blender 3D is a great application, AND it's free (comparable applications can cost over $10k), BUT it's not the most intuitive interface while you're learning it. There are plenty of tutorials and it's very efficient once you get used to it, but until then, it can even be a bit frustrating. You can find it here:
http://www.blender.org/download/get-blender

There's also Maya and 3DStudioMax, but those aren't free. I think you can download student versions, and if you can live with watermarks on your renderings, you could probably use those.



I almost replied to your latest email update to let you know your name came up. Glad you made it over here.

Any idea how much he's asking for it? Not interested, just curious.

I'll PM ya--I'm not sure how much he wants exactly, but I do remember some prices he was thinking when I was over there over a year ago...He was comparing it to an Elise/Exige with more power and traction at a better price, if that helps.



The ultimate win/win:)

I expect great cars from smyth , LM and factory five. As a 50% owner of ffr and a major owner of LM I hope all these wonderful concepts are hits.

Whichever cars the market decides to buy I just hope they go through LM smyth And ffr. What a huge market the car business encompases...the diesel guys are different from the wrx guys and the gtm guys are different from the rally fighter guys...we love them all.

The wonderful thing about loving what you do as a car designer/builder is that you are happy even making one(or 36 betas... ). So if you want a g3f you better get one now...it looks like Dave may be making me rich with the income from the wrx car and I can go back to designing diesel go fast boats;)

In all seriousness I amreally excited to see what the car specs are over the next year and I cant wait to see the first designs.

mark smith

Dang--You're the man. How fun is it to be part of LM, FFR, and Smyth? I was just thinking about submitting some designs to LM for fun, too. I'm glad we've got companies to make these relatively rare and specialized cars for people looking for something outside mainstream vehicles (I'm also glad we've got people like you for supporting such companies :) ). Very exciting-


Mike

[Mark Smith]

if you havent built a car in this life...do it...it is one of the great experiences.

Lm helps you build it in a week at their factory...FFR lets you build it from the frame up...Smyth is the ultimate tuner vw...one or more of these great companies will take care of you, the builder. For those that will never build a car...you can always be like everyone else and buy a ferrari or porsche to be cool:)

mark

[jim1729]

x2 on the suggestion that the new FFR car appearance should trend toward the Mazda Furai. That is a truly beautiful car. It's almost criminal that they aren't going to put it on the road.

I'd also like to suggest the removable hard top be somehow integrated into the shape of the car when not in use, so you don't have to run home at the first sign of rain. I already have a motorcycle and will soon have a Mk4 (not to mention a couple other sports cars). I don't think I'll get much use out of another vehicle with such an obvious limitation.

Jim

[Mark Smith]

x3 on mazda furai style...absolutely cool

[Johnny Suede]

Make it look good with a top on! I feel like i'm gambling everytime I drive my roadster to work. Will it rain? will it rain? will it rain?

I just notced Jim's post, we are on the same page :)

[Evan78]

That's funny, ever lost that bet?

[Dave Smith]

I'd like to move the discussion over to the other design post. The feedback is priceless and I also would rather not start another G3F post (which the title suggests). While I certainly can understand the comparisons, we (Factory Five) have zero ownership or interest in the G3R (no offense Mark). I wanted to explain closing the post and would ask other moderators the same courtesy. Thanks.

Dave Smith
FFR001