Design Consulting

[Vman7]

I have been thinking about this for a long time. Friends and professional acquaintances keep telling I should stop giving away my ideas without getting paid for them. I am starting to think along those lines.

It becomes real time consuming, even in some cases a lot of shading, lighting just right, getting the shine to look just right, creating things from scratch, like tail lights you can't find on the internet etc. Would be a different story if I had really good photos with the right angles and distance and lighting and/or CAD screen shots. CAD screen shots in high res. with some measurements would be the ultimate, that way I could be real accurate with the designs, and I mean like within a 1/16" to 1/8", but that is dreaming....lol

So at this point I am mostly going over my options. I do most of my mod.s, logos etc., here because I enjoy doing it:), but when I have a lot of outside work from here doing graphics that I can get paid for, then doing the stuff for here can get overwhelming and get put off for along time, even months on end or not even done at all.

So not sure what I am going to do just yet, I enjoy doing the design mod.s, but wish I could spend more time doing the mod.s instead spending so much time fixing photos before I even get to doing the design mod.s.

Basicly I have to make a blank of what ever view I need to use, ie: no wing, diffuser, tail lights, vents etc. Think of it like working on a car from scratch. That way I can add, take away etc. Once I get certain parts designed I can move them, change them, add to them etc., just makes it once you have a blank to move more effectively, therefor being able to do more options without spending time getting the blank just right.

The bottom line is to spend more time doing the designs mod.s NOT creating the blank.

David

[riptide motorsport]

I agree.....you should be compensated for your efforts.


I have been thinking about this for a long time. Friends and professional acquaintances keep telling I should stop giving away my ideas without getting paid for them. I am starting to think along those lines.

It becomes real time consuming, even in some cases a lot of shading, lighting just right, getting the shine to look just right, creating things from scratch, like tail lights you can't find on the internet etc. Would be a different story if I had really good photos with the right angles and distance and lighting and/or CAD screen shots. CAD screen shots in high res. with some measurements would be the ultimate, that way I could be real accurate with the designs, and I mean like within a 1/16" to 1/8", but that is dreaming....lol

So at this point I am mostly going over my options. I do most of my mod.s, logos etc., here because I enjoy doing it:), but when I have a lot of outside work from here doing graphics that I can get paid for, then doing the stuff for here can get overwhelming and get put off for along time, even months on end or not even done at all.

So not sure what I am going to do just yet, I enjoy doing the design mod.s, but wish I could spend more time doing the mod.s instead spending so much time fixing photos before I even get to doing the design mod.s.

Basicly I have to make a blank of what ever view I need to use, ie: no wing, diffuser, tail lights, vents etc. Think of it like working on a car from scratch. That way I can add, take away etc. Once I get certain parts designed I can move them, change them, add to them etc., just makes it once you have a blank to move more effectively, therefor being able to do more options without spending time getting the blank just right.

The bottom line is to spend more time doing the designs mod.s NOT creating the blank.

David

[PaulW]

Do it!

My son lives in Edmonton and he is into building bagged mini-trucks (I know my failure as a father). He also has been doing renderings for years for projects so that people can pre-design what they think they want the final truck to look like. He did it for free for the longest time because he enjoyed it and was fearful that if he started charging for the work people wouldn't use him. He finally decided to start a small business and charge. He has never been busier. It seems that when you attach a cost to what you do people value it even more. He currently has at least a 30-60 day backlog as it is still part time.

He called me the other day to say that the large club he belongs to is going to SEMA next year and they want his truck for display purposes and they want a display of his renderings as well. To say the least he is pumped.

[Vman7]

Thanks guys! :)

Well I think I am just going to do some consulting, mostly depends on how much work need to be done in the design, small stuff like a tail light change, no big deal, as long as I have a good picture to work with.

I am only going to do work on Factory Five cars, so don't ask about anything else please. Also don't ask if you are not really serious, I am getting way to many ppl just asking about ideas with really not plans on carrying it out.

As far as doing ideas for the 818, not sure what I am going to do just yet, might just wait.

I just don't want to spend the time anymore cleaning up pictures to make blanks etc., and not being able to get the right pictures or even some print view pictures from CAD drawings. I am even considering not even having anything to do with FFR stuff anymore and just start doing custom body designs etc., based on FFR designs.

I am just not spending enough time with customers who need graphics done for logos, web sites etc.

David

[WIS89]

David-

Have you considered talking with someone who already does this type of work? It might be insightful to discuss (assuming he is willing) the pros and cons of this type of work, the scope of people's expectations, etc.

I was thinking of Murray Pfaff. He has been doing some amazing design work for years. He does Factory Five cars, but also some pretty amazing other designs as well. He recently finished a stunning design/build that has won numerous awards. He is a true craftsman! I don't know if he'd be willing to mentor or guide you and share some of his thoughts or not. However, he would be an awesome guy to reach out to. His designs are awesome, his work is top shelf, and he's a super guy.

Here is his website (http://pfaffdesigns.com/). No matter which direction you proceed, I wish you good luck. I hope you find it rewarding and prosperous!

Regards,

Steve

[Vman7]

Steve, thanks for the advice :) I have checked out his site before, Murray does outsanding work! Interesting is he is out of Royal Oak, MI., I went to Athens High which is in Troy, MI, just north of Royal oak.

I might contact him in the near future, once I really figure out just what direct I am going to go.

David


David-

Have you considered talking with someone who already does this type of work? It might be insightful to discuss (assuming he is willing) the pros and cons of this type of work, the scope of people's expectations, etc.

I was thinking of Murray Pfaff. He has been doing some amazing design work for years. He does Factory Five cars, but also some pretty amazing other designs as well. He recently finished a stunning design/build that has won numerous awards. He is a true craftsman! I don't know if he'd be willing to mentor or guide you and share some of his thoughts or not. However, he would be an awesome guy to reach out to. His designs are awesome, his work is top shelf, and he's a super guy.

Here is his website (http://pfaffdesigns.com/). No matter which direction you proceed, I wish you good luck. I hope you find it rewarding and prosperous!

Regards,

Steve

[Vman7]

Ok here is the plan for right now.

If you haven't noticed, I took down all my design pictures, logo designs, graphics etc., from here. Mostly due to the fact I would like to do something where ppl can just go and look at all the stuff without having to go through all the comments etc.

So here is what I am thinking. Get all the designs together in groups like 818, GTM etc. and do photo albums, clean up some stuff on some designs, new design ideas etc. Then do threads in 818, '33, Coupe and GTM. That would read something like, Vman's 818 Design mod.s, with links to the albums. This is where ppl can then take pics from the albums and post them and talk about them or what ever they have on their mind.

I plan on putting up updated designs such as the 818.

Then if someone would like some custom work done, I would do the design consulting. Fees would be based on how complex the design would be. I wouldn't charge a lot. Remember I enjoy doing this :) The Design consulting is more to keep the people who aren't really serious at bay.

David

[Red Tag]

Are you just doing renderings or do you have CAD capabilities? I have full CNC capabilities, including 3d laser scanning, but I need to get my hands on my 818, so I can make accessories that I want for my car. If you have CAD capabilities, I would be interested in getting Solidworks or Inventor files from you, so I can cut the molds, and make parts for my own car.

[David Hodgkins]

Let me see if I have this right:

You took down ALL of your renderings, so now all the threads you posted them in now have broken image links? That effectively destroys portions or whole threads on this site, a few of which are the most viewed here. And now you want to be paid for any more renderings?

Tearing down all those pics does a real disservice to the rest of the members here. Secondly, if you plan on moving forward as a business here, you must be a contributing vendor. Moving forward, you not be allowed to advertise for business here unless you are.

You should have thought about what you did/are doing, and it's impact on this site.

[Vman7]

Are you just doing renderings or do you have CAD capabilities? I have full CNC capabilities, including 3d laser scanning, but I need to get my hands on my 818, so I can make accessories that I want for my car. If you have CAD capabilities, I would be interested in getting Solidworks or Inventor files from you, so I can cut the molds, and make parts for my own car.

For right now just doing renderings, some are pretty accurate. I could do CAD if I would learn some CAD program, but not sure how that would help in the CNC part since they wouldn't be accurate without having access to FFR CAD drawings, hench no accurate measurements. The renderings I do of say the rear I can somewhat get pretty accurate if I have a reference point like tail lights.

[Vman7]

Let me see if I have this right:

You took down ALL of your renderings, so now all the threads you posted them in now have broken image links? That effectively destroys portions or whole threads on this site, a few of which are the most viewed here. And now you want to be paid for any more renderings?

Tearing down all those pics does a real disservice to the rest of the members here. Secondly, if you plan on moving forward as a business here, you must be a contributing vendor. Moving forward, you not be allowed to advertise for business here unless you are.

You should have thought about what you did/are doing, and it's impact on this site.

I was afraid this might happen, ppl not understanding what I am doing...

All the renderings I took down are going to still be here only in Albums. Only custom side work will have some kind of fee. Which would be through pm or email, in relation to threads post on the renderings etc.

David, so should I try and put back all the those pictures then? I was trying to keep it from getting so confusing with there being so many variations in the renderings, nobody really knows which ones are the finished rendering, which gets people asking me, hey do this or do that etc.

David let ask you this, since I really don't want to, and can't afford it, how do I handle all the people that keep asking me to do stuff for them that are willing to pay?

David

[Vman7]

hmmm....well I was going to say something more, but I don't think I will. I have put my foot up my butt enough for today.....lol I guess it might be wise for me not to post anything on this site for a while, other wise I might not be able to disengage my foot from my butt, since it will be so far up it........

[ehansen007]

Yeah, don't worry about it too much Vman. I understand what you were trying to do but no one really wants to see someone do some cool photoshop and then take it down to make money on just the design. Putting them up there was some free publicity so it should stay there as it helped build your confidence that it's something that could be successful at going forward. Typically with the custom car crowd, no one wants to pay for the idea, they'd rather just pay for the part once it's built or come up with their own and execute. And that's the great thing about these cars is that they give people a lot of creative ideas to go off and make their own parts to sell; like say.... a trailer hitch! ;). So if I were you, I would either post up and share your ideas as marketing so you can build your own parts, or just be happy you're helping others who might not have the vision, but have the means to take a design and turn into something functional. Just my opinion.

e

[Evan78]

I understand your position to reduce the amount of time you spend responding to request for free work, but I'm not clear on your organizational goals. It seems to me that you're unhappy with the organization (or lack thereof) of the conversations that you've participated in. I think you should leave that stuff intact and start following whatever new method you decide on. Perhaps adding a signature with whatever instructions you want people to see and/or a link to some central thread you start with instructions to people making requests.

I am curious, what do you mean by "mod.s"? You use it often, so it doesn't appear to be a typo. Is it short for something?

[Vman7]

Well I guess people aren't getting what I am trying to say and do, and or I am not explaining it right, probably a bit of both.

Evan, "mod.s" is just short for Modifications, in my case mostly aesthetics.

Let's see if I can get this right this time....lol

1st off my intent was not to market myself for getting paid for doing designs. It was to hopefully make it easier for people to have access to the designs by putting them all in one place, without having to go through all the long threads. By creating Albums here on this site and having links to them.

2nd Since I get a lot of requests through pm and email for custom work design just for that persons car. I was thinking of some kind of fee depending on how complex the work is, not a large fee though.

3rd The designs that were up here, are and still will be free, has nothing to do with marketing myself or trying to get money of any kind. I do them because I enjoy doing them. People can do what they like with them. All I ask is give credit where credit is due, if you decide to use them for whatever reason.

4th This is what I get for trying to listen to people outside of these forums.......lol

David

[Benji]

I really don't see what all the fuss is about? Vman is free to do with whatever he likes with the design/modification pics *he* has made.

I personally don't like any of his design entries (for the 818) but his modification pics have been great and regardless of anyone's opinion, he has a talent.

Whether or not he can make money with his current talent is another thing but he absolutely has the right to try and find out, all power to him. Usually people get butt hurt when they were getting something for free and then they start getting charged for it, I don't get why though?

Vman, good luck buddy.

[Vman7]

Since this thread has caused a controversy, and due to myself somewhat. I have decided I have to concentrate more on my logo and graphics customers I have outside of this forum.

So here is what is going to happen.

1) Due a few albums on 818 stuff, for people to be inspired for ideas, to use etc. (going to see if I can upload the full size versions, since they will show more detail), people can pull pictures from albums to use in their own threads and discuss whatever they have in mind.

2) There will be no Vantage put back up, no coupe, targa, soft top designs put back up, only stuff to do with rear, front and side views of FFR's current 818 model.

3) The Vantage Design, coupe, targa and Soft Top designs where out long enough for FFR to use for free for the future. Well that window of opportunity has passed as far as I am concerned. So if they are going to happen (which I highy doubt) it would be by some 3rd party who is serious about doing them.

4) No more new designs Period!

5) Not going to dicuss 818 stuff anymore, that part of my life is over, end of story.

6) Not going to do Design Consulting here or be a vendor here (which is something I was considering to do down the road)

Not going to discuss this anymore, not going to debate about it anymore. If I get banned, then so be it. I just don't care anymore. I have way to many other things in my life that that are more important then this forum.

David

[riptide motorsport]

Respectfully david...........................you'll change your mind ...................again!

[Vman7]

LOL @ Riptide........oh you know me to well.....lol

I reread my last post, and I realized I wasn't specific enough on the "No more new designs Period!" comment, my mind was on the 818 and the Vantage. I should have said "No more 818 designs Period!" I apologize for that, I was wrong in saying that.

I do plan on doing new designs for the GTM, Coupe and '33.

I have a lot of stuff in mind for the GTM, from new rear ideas, front, and a few complete body redues that will still fit on the frame.

David

[crash]

I realy don't see what was trying to be accomplished here. Why take the stuff you had posted down? Why take your toys and go home? This site is VERY reasonable as far as vendor costs, why are you apparently so up tight about that? I'm just not getting any of this. As a vendor that has built an inventory of parts over the years, they have ALL been based upon input and refinements suggested by people on the two forums. Why would you think that removing the work from this site that got you to this point would be helpful to your endeavors? I guess one of the things I don't understand is that I realize that there is a HUGE difference between an idea, and actually executing that idea. We talk about ideas all the time on here. Some things I judge have merit, and some I judge to be a losing proposition. Even though pretty much all the products www.myraceshop.com sells are a direct result of ideas from these forums, I would never consider removing stuff, including part numbers and sources for those parts that are listed on the forum threads. I simply make sure that I offer the combined parts for less money than the individual could go buy them for, and I do this through volume.

What's my point? Maybe you should try and market more than just the ideas. maybe you should turn your ideas into hardware and then sell those components. People will buy them, but you just have to make sure they are cost effective for you in the likely quantities that will be bought by FFR builders. So you have some rear end ideas? Great, post them up for people to see. If they are liked, I guarantee you that people will be calling you asking where they can get those tail lights, or bumpers, or whatever. Don't want to make the parts and would rather just sell your "ideas"? Good luck with that. Not sayin you can't make a go of that, but I KNOW that if you actually offer the finished, or semi-finished product, then you will be able to sustain a small side business. Don't want to go to the effort to actually build something? Well, as I said, good luck with that.

[Vman7]

I realy don't see what was trying to be accomplished here. Why take the stuff you had posted down? Why take your toys and go home? This site is VERY reasonable as far as vendor costs, why are you apparently so up tight about that? I'm just not getting any of this. As a vendor that has built an inventory of parts over the years, they have ALL been based upon input and refinements suggested by people on the two forums. Why would you think that removing the work from this site that got you to this point would be helpful to your endeavors? I guess one of the things I don't understand is that I realize that there is a HUGE difference between an idea, and actually executing that idea. We talk about ideas all the time on here. Some things I judge have merit, and some I judge to be a losing proposition. Even though pretty much all the products www.myraceshop.com sells are a direct result of ideas from these forums, I would never consider removing stuff, including part numbers and sources for those parts that are listed on the forum threads. I simply make sure that I offer the combined parts for less money than the individual could go buy them for, and I do this through volume.

What's my point? Maybe you should try and market more than just the ideas. maybe you should turn your ideas into hardware and then sell those components. People will buy them, but you just have to make sure they are cost effective for you in the likely quantities that will be bought by FFR builders. So you have some rear end ideas? Great, post them up for people to see. If they are liked, I guarantee you that people will be calling you asking where they can get those tail lights, or bumpers, or whatever. Don't want to make the parts and would rather just sell your "ideas"? Good luck with that. Not sayin you can't make a go of that, but I KNOW that if you actually offer the finished, or semi-finished product, then you will be able to sustain a small side business. Don't want to go to the effort to actually build something? Well, as I said, good luck with that.

I get where you are coming from, I really do. Some good ideas there.
But here is the problem, MONEY! I just don't have it, and yes $9.99 a month to be a vendor is cheap, but when you have been out of work as long as I have been, every penny counts, literally. Yes I would love to do some marketing and be vendor somewhere. But as of right now, can't afford it.

Here is the assumption: I have the money. I have a place to do custom parts. I have a car (818 for example) to make sure the parts fit, comform to the body. Since I don't have a garage, I would have to rent a place, on the average for roughly a 2 stall garage size place here in orlando, is about $2000 a month. Have to buy a 818 kit, that's $10,000, have to buy equipment to make the parts, in this case to do moldes etc. Then if I can sell the parts, and lets say the biggest part goes for about $500.

Let's do the math: $2000 rent, $10,000 818, Equipment lets say around $5000 = $17,000 initial investment, roughly. Ok now lets say on the good side I sell at least $500 a month of parts, it would take 34 month just to break even. Not to mention every month I would have to pay rent of $2000, which would have to come out of my pocket, and where does that money come from. So from a business stand point just doesn't make sense.

The better thing to do would be to work with somebody that already has a business and is willing to pick up the designs and work with them, until thing could get to a point of either work for them or become a business partner with them, and maybe in time break off into my own business once some capital is earned.

As far as the take the pictures down, I hope not to have to explain this again, and didn't not want to do this but I guess I am going have to. All the trouble started with post #9. I wish people would really READ MY POSTS. At first I said I was considering the consulting work, but that got twisted. Then taking the pictures down to put them in a EASY, ONE LOCATION FOR EASY ACCESS, for people to find without having to go though all the thread just to find the pictures. I know because do searches here all the time to find pictures, takes along time to go through all the threads.

Bottom line: I was trying to get things more organized for people to have access to the pictures etc.

Ok so for what David H. said
"You took down ALL of your renderings, so now all the threads you posted them in now have broken image links? That effectively destroys portions or whole threads on this site, a few of which are the most viewed here." and "Tearing down all those pics does a real disservice to the rest of the members here."

First off there are very few other threads then mine that have my pictures linked to them. Second the most viewed, yes and no, depends on the thread, and even so, doesn't matter since most of the pictures that were viewed were of the Vantage Design Project, the old ones are mute since that design is dead, and even the current Vantage design is going to be changed (well was going to be) so that makes that mute. Why talk about something that is not go to be around anymore or has changed, it just makes it confusing for people to try and keep up with what is all going on. So by taking the pictures out of the old threads it keeps people from bringing up an old subject that is dead, and keep people focused on the new thread with the new updates, which in return for the most part will keep down the confusion. Again keep all the pictures in one place allows easy access for people.

Now before people respond to this, Please, please read everything carefully, before commenting and end up taking what I have posted out of context.

Thanks, David :)

[timmy318]

Thanks for providing my reading for tonight! Really hope you do change your mind about doing some more mods for the 818! Hope everything works out and that sometime (hopefully soon), some of us will see your creations come to life!

[Vman7]

Thanks for providing my reading for tonight! Really hope you do change your mind about doing some more mods for the 818! Hope everything works out and that sometime (hopefully soon), some of us will see your creations come to life!

lol @ the reading for tonight line..... Thanks timmy :) Right now I plan on concentrating my efforts on the GTM.

[crash]

I do understand where you were coming from as many of us have suggested things as far as organization of the forums to try and make things a little easier for users, and particularly new users, but REMOVING pictures from threads and then placing them into a folder, instead of just placing a COPY in the folder really makes no sense to me. If you want people to pay you for your "work" then you will have to show them your examples, and people are much more likely, IMHO, to stumble accorss them when they are in threads where people are ohing and ahing over them.

Glad you understand the intracacies of actually producing something, as many people do not. Just to produce the couple GTM specific items that www.myraceshop.com does, takes a termendous amount of time and capital to accomplish. Truthfully, if I wasn't building the parts for my builds anyway, I would never have done it. As it is, I will likely never pay for the costs of the items to be developed, but it does help a little in easing the total costs spent to make these things work.

Please don't take my posts too negatively. Sometimes speaking my mind means people hear things they don't like to hear, but hopefully the situation is better for it in the end.

[Vman7]

I do understand where you were coming from as many of us have suggested things as far as organization of the forums to try and make things a little easier for users, and particularly new users, but REMOVING pictures from threads and then placing them into a folder, instead of just placing a COPY in the folder really makes no sense to me. If you want people to pay you for your "work" then you will have to show them your examples, and people are much more likely, IMHO, to stumble accorss them when they are in threads where people are ohing and ahing over them.

Glad you understand the intracacies of actually producing something, as many people do not. Just to produce the couple GTM specific items that www.myraceshop.com does, takes a termendous amount of time and capital to accomplish. Truthfully, if I wasn't building the parts for my builds anyway, I would never have done it. As it is, I will likely never pay for the costs of the items to be developed, but it does help a little in easing the total costs spent to make these things work.

Please don't take my posts too negatively. Sometimes speaking my mind means people hear things they don't like to hear, but hopefully the situation is better for it in the end.

I actually took your post above as a postive note:)

As far as the thread stuff, taking the pictures out. I know it was kind of a gamble doing that. The main idea was to keep people up to date on the current overall designs of the 818 I come up with. Taking the pictures out mostly effected the 818 pictures, not the other FFR cars since there really wasn't any true threads on them, so those will be ok, but I get where some are coming from on the 818 stuff. I probably should have done something like the copy you were talking about.

The pay for my work part is just a thought, way too early for doing that in any form or fashion right now, that is something down the road I am considering doing. For people here that wouldn't even happen at the least until after FFR sells some 818s, so at least I would say no earlier then sept/oct of 2013. But not even sure if I really want to do that, mostly just testing the water on the Design Consulting idea, to really find out what I am getting into.

Once things move along, it will be better, just going to have to trust me on that :)

David