Future 818R Racers/Builders- Spec Series/motor type/power 2 weight ratio?

[C.Plavan]

Hello Future 818R Racers & Builders,

I'm just curious on what is being thrown around for the 818R (if anything) about a Spec Series. I'm one of the preorder guys, and I want to start getting the motors figured out. I have been racing w2w since 1997, I have seen classes come and go. The natural tendency is for us racers is to "Go Faster" which can lead to the Spec Series shoot offs into faster higher HP classes. This then makes the Spec Series turnout much less.

I'm just thinking out loud...

What motors are you guys looking at putting in? I'm reading everything I can on all the motors to get familiar with them. I'm not buying a donor car, I plan on doing everything piece by piece (some aftermarket) for a excellent/safe race car.

I just trying to gauge what other racers like me are thinking or plan on doing.

So what do you want to do????

[BS]

Good question- one I've asked also.
It probably all depends if there will be a separate Spec class for these cars or if the 818 will have to be placed in one of the other existing classes such as SP or simply into the TT classes.
I haven't heard anything about a separate NASA spec class, but it is still early so I'm taking a wait and see attitude at the moment.

Bob

[C.Plavan]

I guess we will just have to do that and wait. I'm curious what Motor is everyone considering?

[Mechie3]

2.5l turbo with stock wrx td04.

[Turboguy]

http://f1ad.narod.ru/Articles/Teams/BMS/1991_JuddGV10.jpg


:D

[WIS89]

http://f1ad.narod.ru/Articles/Teams/BMS/1991_JuddGV10.jpg


:D

VERY VERY sexy!! Wow!!

Where can I find one, and what ridiculous amount of money do I need to set aside to own one?

Regards,

Steve

[C.Plavan]

VERY VERY sexy!! Wow!!

Where can I find one, and what ridiculous amount of money do I need to set aside to own one?

Regards,

Steve

Lets try to keep this on topic..... I'm tired of threads getting HIJACKED.

[riptide motorsport]

WOW........Relax Francis!:o

[FFRSpec72]

After running the challenge series I'm not into spending lots of $$$ for the fancy parts, stock parts pretty much for me, most likely a NA engine, stock suspension and brakes, will spend $$$ in balance, weight reduction and safety (extra intrusion protection).

[Samiam1017]

I wouldn't expect a spec class to be around for years if ever

[metalmaker12]

13580JDM Version 8 EJ207 VF37, Sti Intercooler, Jdm Ecu, custom intake, Stock exhaust manifold, open source tune, 325-350whp, 8600 rev limit. This is on an 818S

The 818R weighed in at around 1550 lbs, so at that weight and 350whp the 818 will have a .226 power to weight ratio
At 1800lbs and 350whp it will have a .194, it is going to move. I figure a sub 4 sec 0-60, like 3.3-3.5

Saleen s7 .254
Porsche Carrera GT .198
Ferrari 599 GTB .166
MB SLR .164

I like my company,,, so with 400whp at 1500 a .267 can happen,,, wow

[mrvwcastner]

I want to do a well balanced NA motor that hopefully breaks 200 horse would like to hit 250. I'm tired of tuning & braking boosted motors. I have not set game plan yet. I want as much high quality aftermarket chassis components as possible mainly for tune ability and piece of mind that it is straight & safe. Of course unsprung weight highly important as well. I really want to offset the seat to center of cockpit as well. Moving the seat will obviously add quite a bit of time & money but I've always wanted a center mounted seat track car. I would like to get plates on it as well for some road use, but not any want to DD it.

[jimgood]

I would love a 400 hp 1550 lb race car...for $15 grand.

But, unless you are doing all the labor yourself, that's not going to happen. Show of hands...how many of you racer wanabes have the money, knowledge and skills to do that? And what percentage of the racing population in your part of the world do you represent? So, how many cars do you think that will yield in your class at the tracks to which you are willing to travel?

Then there's the reliability factor. High performance engines produce more heat and wear faster. Show of hands...how many of you racer wannabes have the money to shell out, not only for the buy-in, safety equipment and consumables, but for an engine refresh at least once a year?

The Challenge Series started off great but, as racers improved their driving skills, they started craving more speed and, when they couldn't move the series in the direction they wanted, they left. Car counts went down. When the new specs were released last year and go-fast parts were bolted onto otherwise stock engines, reliability went down. Costs went up. The series is becoming even less attractive.

So, when you consider a series for the 818, keep all that in mind. It's that or you'll be racing in "unlimited" classes against very high dollar machinery.

[jlahl3160]

I believe any engine one puts in will be a thrill... Take a look at this chart that compares power to weight of various cars you may have known to what the potential is for a 818 with an NA engine... then with boost. I was amazed how quick a NA looks like it will be.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?8066-To-Turbo-or-not-to-Turbo-that-is-the-Question-or-how-much-is-too-much

I for one will be thinking about lower power ... less repair (body shop that is) - after seeing all the wrecks in Copart, a car as fast as Corvette is, for me, is fast enough... at least for now. There is always the opportunity to build a second one.

John

[jimgood]

I agree with you, John. I'd rather race in a field of entertaining and reliable cars than spend time twiddling with turbo dohickies and futzing with engine management trying to keep engine knock at bay. That's why Spec Miata and Spec E30 have been so successful. The 818 with an NA motor should be considerably quicker than those cars.

[bstuke]

I would venture 02 to 05 on the spec. 4 years worth of parts, and solid stock components.

[metalmaker12]

I would venture 02 to 05 on the spec. 4 years worth of parts, and solid stock components.

400 whp is not hard to achieve on a sti power plant, I have reached and surpassed with simple upgrades. Injectors and a slightly bigger turbo with a mild tune can get 400 whp. There is a lot of resource on the ej motors. Na is cool if you can get 200 plus wheel horespower, but will be in the same reliability arena. I don't mean to bash any dreams, but na in an ej is a waste of time due the the fact that these motors are very reliable good power turbo motors. The brz is a good example of this and should have a turbo engine.

They are in fact the most reliable turbo engines in my opinion, the rally cars did have turbos guys lol, and they jumped over things and went sideways on dirt and gravel

[FFRSpec72]

I wouldn't expect a spec class to be around for years if ever

Not true, as in most leagues if you have interest you can start a class, in our NW league we need 6 cars minimum, we can stipulate the rules, its a provisional class for 1-2 years (depending on participation) and if we get a minimum of 3 cars average per race (14-15 races per season) then we can move this to a championship points class.

I would be pushing for a NA class with no less than 8:1 ratio on HP/TQ to weight, minimum weight required, dyno at start season, aero mods allowed, brake mods allowed.

[bstuke]

Oops, when I say 02-05 I do mean turbo.

The idea is cost effective racing. STI powerplants and such would push the 818R spec racer out of that realm. Check out some of the Challenge car threads in the old forum for discussion on changes to the spec car and some of the conversations and discussions. Keep in mind the challenge car broke many records at tracks, and that with a stock HO motor.

Keeping it simple and cost effective will be the key to success.

[jimgood]

400 whp is not hard to achieve on a sti power plant, I have reached and surpassed with simple upgrades. Injectors and a slightly bigger turbo with a mild tune can get 400 whp. There is a lot of resource on the ej motors. Na is cool if you can get 200 plus wheel horespower, but will be in the same reliability arena. I don't mean to bash any dreams, but na in an ej is a waste of time due the the fact that these motors are very reliable good power turbo motors. The brz is a good example of this and should have a turbo engine.

They are in fact the most reliable turbo engines in my opinion, the rally cars did have turbos guys lol, and they jumped over things and went sideways on dirt and gravel
Sure. No single donor. Cha-ching. Bigger turbo. Cha-ching. Programmable ECU. Cha-ching. Dyno time for tuning. Cha-ching.

Then there's the problem of regulating remapping after the official dyno run. It's too easy to remap the ECU then sandbag until you really need the extra 3 lbs of boost you programmed in.

[Mechie3]

06/07 wrx get you close to still power levels. Stock ecu can be reprogrammed easily so make a rule that all cads use the same physical style ecu and they are mixed and matched before a race or held by the officials and programmed then put in the car just before the race.

[metalmaker12]

No cha-ching
single 02-05 wrx donor 3-5k
new timing belt kit, plugs, fluids 600
STI vf43 turbo 500-1k
sti intercooler if you want 2-300
open source tune on stock ecu on dyno 350-400
thats not crazy money in the current car world

I just think these turbos motors are proven. Miatas, and E30s are not really turbo engines like the EJ's. Your not adding on something, it is how they are engineered, once there tuned right they run solid. Taking the grunt away from what was meant is not what makes a subaru a subaru. You will see turbos in the racing series, and if your in a Na setup, they will be way ahead of you, and keep going lap after lap etc. In every form of subaru racing a turbo was used (with the exception of the race brz). I think once some of you get into the subaru scene more you will see how reliable these engines are. What makes it even greater is the 818 is so light allowing us to run them on stock settings which will really make them last.

[Turboguy]

http://f1ad.narod.ru/Articles/Teams/BMS/1991_JuddGV10.jpg


:D

VERY VERY sexy!! Wow!!

Where can I find one, and what ridiculous amount of money do I need to set aside to own one?

My posting was more tongue-in-cheek than anything else. Nevertheless, here's a listing for a Judd "GV" 3.5 liter Formula 1 V-10 that was for sale:

http://www.race-cars.com/engsales/other/1195308252/1195308252ss.htm


Asking price is 50,000 Euros (about $70,000USD). The 680HP rating is QUITE conservative. Actual HP would, I expect, be closer to 800.

[jimgood]

No cha-ching
single 02-05 wrx donor 3-5k
new timing belt kit, plugs, fluids 600
STI vf43 turbo 500-1k
sti intercooler if you want 2-300
open source tune on stock ecu on dyno 350-400
thats not crazy money in the current car world

I just think these turbos motors are proven. Miatas, and E30s are not really turbo engines like the EJ's. Your not adding on something, it is how they are engineered, once there tuned right they run solid. Taking the grunt away from what was meant is not what makes a subaru a subaru. You will see turbos in the racing series, and if your in a Na setup, they will be way ahead of you, and keep going lap after lap etc. In every form of subaru racing a turbo was used (with the exception of the race brz). I think once some of you get into the subaru scene more you will see how reliable these engines are. What makes it even greater is the 818 is so light allowing us to run them on stock settings which will really make them last.
Well, you did say
400 whp is not hard to achieve on a sti power plant, ...
To me that means the 2.5 from an STi car.

I ran an '02 WRX for 5 years. I beat the snot out of that car doing track days and rallyXs. I put 140k miles on it before it lost compression in one cylinder and I basically sold it for scrap. So I know about their reliability. But we're talking about buying donor cars and using their parts to build a race car. Racing is expensive enough. First, it's hard to find a low mileage donor. Second, it's hard to find a donor that hasn't had the snot beaten out of it by someone like me. It's rare that you know what you're getting for sure.

At least in the original Challenge Series, you could buy a remanufactured OTS long block for a tick under $2k. Try that with a Subaru motor.

[longislandwrx]

The 818R weighed in at around 1550 lbs,


where did this number come from?

[RM1SepEx]

1550 w/o body...

[Samiam1017]

Spec72. Don't get me wrong I think it would be great fun, I would even start racing again for that. But racing in a class with just three cars isn't. I think sticking it in another class that it would be competitive in and maybe 5 years down the road maybe then petition for a spec class or maybe even two different 818 classes one na and one turbo.

[Kalstar]

I believe that is with the body, 1550lbs is what I was told at SEMA. When asked why the difference in weight....I was told the stock interior (carpet, 2 heavy factory seats, windshield and misc other stuff) was nearly 200lbs heavier than the 818r set up.

[longislandwrx]

Thats great news... With the rest of my mods should be able to hit 1500 that's 2-Eleven territory.

[metalmaker12]

with the body, kalstar was told and FFR techs I asked

[metalmaker12]

You can get a brand new wrx short block for 1,600-2k, yea a long block will run you, but If you rebuild your heads, grab a short block using yours as a core you will have a solid engine for a lot of racing for like 3k.
I

[FFRSpec72]

Spec72. Don't get me wrong I think it would be great fun, I would even start racing again for that. But racing in a class with just three cars isn't. I think sticking it in another class that it would be competitive in and maybe 5 years down the road maybe then petition for a spec class or maybe even two different 818 classes one na and one turbo.

So what happens here in NW will be that we will setup a provisional class, see how many cars we can get, if we keep this to a few simple rules, like 8:1 then se should be able to attract other types cars also. much like the ST class runs here, they have a 10:1 rule and must be a production car and no tube frame race cars, so we would follow rules like this. I run in a spec class now, the numbers are always up and down, but if its a more open class this is where we get different cars and more cars. I doubt that many will see track time next year since folks will be building but will be trying to set something up with ICSCC and NASA here in the NW.

[C.Plavan]

I'm leaning towards a stock STI motor. Dependable 300Hp- @ around 1775 pounds (me and gas included) sounds like WAY TOO MUCH FUN!

[metalmaker12]

I know, it is going to rock. I have a Jdm Sti ej207 which will put down 300-350whp with a safe tune.

I

[Torqueroll]

1360613607

I put two Hyabusa motors together for mine, a tiny v8... I was all set to get my kit but then I woke up!!!

[metalmaker12]

that is sickkkkkkkkkkkkk torqueroll. wow, way cool. very impressed

[Samiam1017]

1360613607

I put two Hyabusa motors together for mine, a tiny v8... I was all set to get my kit but then I woke up!!!

Is that the same v8 they us in the radical sports racer? Is that some kind of bottom end kit to build that. What's the specs. Trans? It's pretty wild

[Rasmus]

ej22t shortblock

STi Heads and ECU

Legacy GT 5 speed manual.

Turbo: unsure.

[metalmaker12]

the ej22t closed deck is the best subaru block ever made, good choice. Jdm spec c heads or a custom port job would be killer.

[Wayne Presley]

Guys the car with no body weighed 1550, the 818s cars will weigh 1800 ish when complete. Figure the 818R will lose 40 lbs with the windshield and another 50 lbs going with one racing seat instead of 2 WRX seats. Then add 40 lbs back with the extra steel for the roll cage/side intrusion bars.

And here is a lotus 211 on the scales

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/20121017_101900.jpg

[metalmaker12]

Two of us on this forum were told by FFR techs recently that 1550lbs was the total weight of the 818r. I was also told the 818 s will weigh in about 50 lbs shy of 1800, or about 200 hundred lbs more than the r

[FFRSpec72]

And here is a lotus 211 on the scales


Sure hope the 818R scales out better than the Lotus, I expected better from Lotus

[Rasmus]

Two of us on this forum were told by FFR techs recently that 1550lbs was the total weight of the 818r.
I want this to be true. I'd make it so much easier for what I want to do with it if it already comes under the minimum weight for the class I plan (1750 lb w/ driver). Good times getting to run ballast.

[Desertrunner]

the ej22t closed deck is the best subaru block ever made, good choice. Jdm spec c heads or a custom port job would be killer.

Yes and the EG33 is even better.

[longislandwrx]

13645

[BipDBo]

Here's to hoping that the 1550# rumor is true!

How is a car weighed for its official specified curb weight? I've heard of dry weight, but is this the same thing as curb weight? I assume that dry weight means it has an empty gas tank, but does it mean that the car is sitting on the scale with no fluids at all; no coolant, oil, power steering, brake, wiper juice, etc?

In most cars that would not make much of a difference, but it would in the 818. Just the amount of coolant in the 818 would be significant, especially considering the long pipe routing.It seems to me that the most applicable measurement for a track car would be the weight of the car including all fluids and neccessary parts needed to race (except the driver), and a half tank (average state) of gas.

[Rasmus]

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_weight):


By definition, dry weight does not include any of the following:

Gasoline, diesel or any other fuel
Engine oil
Coolant
Brake fluid
Power steering fluid
Transmission fluid
Washer fluid



Curb weight is the total weight of a vehicle with standard equipment, all necessary operating consumables (e.g., motor oil and coolant), a full tank of fuel, while not loaded with either passengers or cargo.

[metalmaker12]

we were told the complete 818r weighed 1550 by FFR Techs and the 818s will weigh 1750

[mrvwcastner]

Gas weighs about 6lbs per gallon & water about 7.5lbs per gallon oil is about 1.9lbs. So if car is 1550 dry lets guess just over 1600 curb weight. If that is correct I will be super happy, but really surprised.

[open road racer]

I want to do a 2.5l, maybe with my 2.0l WRX heads

VF22 or VF39 at first and then a GT30R

[Turboguy]

wow - 1550 lbs?


Surely that's light enough that someone will try and run a 'busa in one.

[Xusia]

I already gave serious consideration to the new ZX-14R engine, but ruled it out because even given some turbo lag (which I am hoping is minimal), I think the EJ engines will be better overall.