818 Pre-Orders Update

[Dave Smith]

I met with two pre-order customers today and spent a good amount of time showing them the 818R and the 818S (the S model was just photographed at the studio and we will post those photos shortly). I tried to give them as much information as possible and will be sending an e-mail to everyone who has a pre-order for the 818 placed soon.

https://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/erikt818.jpg

Pre-order customer Erik Treves tries on the 818R for size.

[timmy318]

:D Great news!

[wallace18]

Looking forward to it!

[Mechie3]

The 818R looks huge with people in it. Probably because they're so low and there's no windshield breaking up the total front to back length.

Emails are good. My phone auto updates and notifies me so I don't have to "F5" my way through the day. :)

[Dave Smith]

The dust has really settled after SEMA and the cars are heading all over the country. The Flame 33 hot rod is heading to Michigan to begin a show circuit with Championship Autoshows, Three FFR roadsters are heading to Hot Rod Magazine for testing/articles, and the red 818S is already completely dissassembled (in the process of being). We will have some very strong answers on production dates and such from me shortly and I just want to express my gratitude to all the folks who placed pre-orders and let everyone know that we are working very hard to ensure this is the best and most well-considered, well executed launch FFR has ever had. I'll post a gallery of the street car photo studio images shortly.

The car does look bigger and wider and lower without the windshiled. Erik is also sitting in the race aluminum Kirkey roadrace seat which is simply huge compared to the big padded OEn street car seat from the subie. We're planning on using the subie donor seats, but its not for sure since they don't deliver as much space as the race seat or even the gtm seat (the rolling chassis at SEMA had the GTM seats in it).

[metalmaker12]

Dave, Nice to hear there will be updates soon.
I shook your hand monday while I was holding my two year old daughter. I did want to talk 818, but we wear both busy.You taking pics of those sweet gtms and me chasing her around. I went on the tour and talked to some tech's about the 818. Next time I want to ask you some questions etc. You guys have a cool shop and build a awesome product, I was impressed. I weld and inspect Submarine welds all day, and the welds on the frames look pretty good so your welders get my approval along with the whole operation. Nice work guys.
I am on the pre-order list and can not wait for updates so bring it!! Thanks and happy turkey day

Chris Marciano

[riptide motorsport]

Man that sure does look sweet!

[Erik W. Treves]

Yeah it may look "big"....but you have to know I am 5'5" and 145lbs sitting in a Kirkey seat bolted to the floor...I could never drive it that way...I did the samething in the Cobra and was looking right at the dash...lol...being short sucks... I had to mount the Kirkey seat up a good 5 inches just to have the same height as the stock seats...and no I don't need blocks on the pedals...lol... The good news is if you are bigger than me (most everybody is :D) you should fit just fine!! There is a huge, HUGE amount of room to make this thing fit most everybody!

[Mechie3]

I think it's more the angle than anything. Puts a weird perspective on it.

[flynntuna]

I'm 6', it looks like the stock seats will need major surgery or go with after market seats.

[clintavo]

Thanks for the updates, Dave. Hearing directly from you, and others that have visited the factory, gives me the patience not to pull the trigger on a Toyobaru.

[Flamshackle]

This is bad news for wookies like me. if this guy is 5.5 and his head is higher than the rollover hoop then at 6.4 Ill be peering over the windshield.

Any word for us wookies Dave Smith?

[longislandwrx]

Thanks for the update Dave, can't wait to get my call.

[dbjr63]

This is bad news for wookies like me. if this guy is 5.5 and his head is higher than the rollover hoop then at 6.4 Ill be peering over the windshield.

Any word for us wookies Dave Smith?

This photo makes me scared, if that guy is 5'5. I will not need a windshield because at 6'3 my head will be over it.

[Mechie3]

The stock seats are pretty thick. Take a look at Erik in the 818R with an aftermarket seat. He's practically peering through the steering wheel.

[Erik W. Treves]

don't be scared! There was a 6' + guy in the group and he fit in the car with the GTM seats. With the Kirkey seats in the racecar he had a TON of room and his head was below the rollbar...I was swallowed up by the car in that seat...Guys, take a breath it is WAY too early in the game....I think the seats that are in the red car are subi seats...we have Cobra owners in the 6+ range who fit in the Roadster and there is TONS more room in the 818. Granted they have to change the seat to a Kirkey to fit..but they fit... Dave has it right! Not his first rodeo at this.. the 818 looks to me to take all the great stuff from all the other kits and improves on any shortcomings that the other kits might have had....they are doing it totally right in my book...let's all just wait for the final release and the first kits in customer's hands before we say much more..they are still fine tuning some of the final details, so I am excited to see it completely finished. The next few months are going to be awesome!

[Dave Smith]

Guys.

THIS is EXACTLY why we don't do this before the car is done. I SPECIFICALLY said that the red car was thrown together without cockpit attention and the seat was the stock seat, in the wrong spot, mounted with a non-production bracket and the pedals were not set up. The entire staff is laughing their *** off at me saying "I told you so". We did not allow anyone at SEMA to sit in the red car becuase it was not done and I did not want anyone in the red car but guys just jumped in and now the information is released that is wrong. Now photos are posted of the car the way it WILL NOT go to production. Take my word that the car will accomodate wookies. Lesson learned.

[RM1SepEx]

Eric and I talked to Dave and the crew for a long time. He focused on the 818S with Jim for a while when I walked around with Dave... You know how open Dave is, take photos, what I say share away. (there may be a thing or two that he may ask you to hold back) take it easy folks... remember it is just a mock up for how it looks... they need to do some engineering work on the seat mounts etc...

Factory five has almost 20 years of experience building component cars, they will work through all of the issues. individuals will indeed make adjustments to their cars to fit the way they like. Another gentleman was walking around with us too. He had to be 6'5" I think one of the photos i posted in the visit thread might have caught him sitting in the 818R... They have a detailed plan developed using advanced project planning tools and they are focused on working through each and every item towards completion. He said June... we need to wait.

step back, we need to view at the forest level, not at the trees. The detailed engineering is not done yet. The car isn't ready for public comsumption. Dave WILL NOT release it to mfg. until it is.

a few months ago Dave decided to bring 3 cars to sema vs one... His crew tasked with a very agressive challenge. All the photos measuring etc... DOES NO ONE ANY GOOD it justs creates more distraction to the team. They have done this over and over again with each successive new car and model of each existing car. They need to work the details and Dave wants to release this car more fully developed than any in the past. He has to do that to make money at his price point and he needs that price point for volume sales world wide. With the volumes that could come from the 818 he can't afford customer service issues. Their workload and project timing is so tight that Jim didn't want to lose the days that the 818S was out for the photos. When it got there within 1m hour they were ripping it apart.

I can guarantee you that they are using detailed body sized dummies within their CAD renderings to maximize the size that will fit in this car. This car has the largest cockpit of any of their cars. BTW I'm 5'8" I fit in anything... the GTM in the showroom makes me feel like Goldilocks in papa bear's chair. I'm sure that I could mount a seat and pedals to "fit" that car.

The 818R has an aluminum seat bolted to the floor, the 818S has the stock seat with some undeveloped bracket holding it it place... Somehwere in the middle is what will work for each of us. Tho there is a wookie out here that NEEDS the aluminum sheet seat bolted directly to the floor... ;-) My wife needs to be able to drive mine too and she is 5' tall...

Edit: Takes me too long to think through and type a post. Sorry Dave for sitting in the Red car, my bad... I jumped in like a lemming after seeing Eric and his dad...

I've tried to explain in my post here and on the visit thread. just be patient Dave and the crew won't let us down. Dave's excitement is unbelievable and they crew will make it happen.

[Mechie3]

Now photos are posted of the car the way it WILL NOT go to production. .

There must be a lot of people on the forums in marketing. I'm an engineer and we butt heads with marketing all the time. They'll request a functional prototype, we deliver a 1 off in house made part, they look at and say

"we're selling this?". "

No no no no...Imagine this being injection molded, and this being nicely curved, color matched here, nice label here."

"so...this is what we're selling? This looks like crap"

:facepalm:

The marketing guys I've worked with have no imagination to bridge prototype to final.


In another thread it said you were looking for (can't remember the exact wording) feedback on ways we intend to use the car (stock seatbelt vs harness) and not things like "OMG needs a roof"! (yeah, that got old really quick). What types of things are you looking for feedback on besides seat belts?

[Nuul]

Guys.

THIS is EXACTLY why we don't do this before the car is done. I SPECIFICALLY said that the red car was thrown together without cockpit attention and the seat was the stock seat, in the wrong spot, mounted with a non-production bracket and the pedals were not set up. The entire staff is laughing their *** off at me saying "I told you so".

Honestly, I wouldn't sweat it too much; the serious buyers know what's up.

[skullandbones]

The 818 will have more room than the roadster which are owned and driven by very big guys. However, you must have faith. When I first placed my seats and tried to arrange it so I would have room, it didn't work. Even after reading and following "manual guidelines" it didn't look good (BTW: that's what the manual is just guidelines). Remember you are building it from scratch. So now after much massaging and minor mods, I fit in a 90 in wheelbase car. The 818 has five or six extra inches and the prototype roll bar may have to be raised before it's over (production version). Come on guys. The wookie issue is not really an issue. The seat may not be a plug and play for you like with me in the roadster but it will work with a little time spent "adjusting". WEK.

[wallace18]

Thanks again to all for this info. Just when I think I can't get any more excited another tidbit comes and stokes my fire.

Was it at all mentioned about Gelcoat vs plastic panels? I am getting a sense that color plastic panels only.

[RM1SepEx]

Thanks again to all for this info. Just when I think I can't get any more excited another tidbit comes and stokes my fire.

Was it at all mentioned about Gelcoat vs plastic panels? I am getting a sense that color plastic panels only.

Dave indicated that they are working diligently on the plastic panels and they are also working molds for fiberglass with gel coat. remember plastic panels and fiberglass molded have different constraints, you can't trim the edge of a fiberglass panel it needs some sort of finishing. The car will be tweaked as required to make the plastic ones work... patience...

[AZPete]

As a previous FFR customer I can assure others that Dave and the guys will exceed the expectations of most and deliver more than they promise. Remember they have 20 years of experience and have sold over 7,000 roadster kits, plus they have designed three other successful cars. I'll gladly place my expectations and money in their hands. Now, I'm anxiously awaiting confirmation of my pre-order and then I'll order a pallet or start buying individual parts.
Pete

[Dave Smith]

Guys,

I was in the 818 reseource meeting with the crew all morning and we are looking very good on the production plans and remaining R&D issues. Let me clear a few things up.

Erik Traves is a GREAT guy. Solid, FFR experience, Great skills, FABRICATED his own Caterham (!) and I, as President of FFR report to him as the customer and a guy who has one of ther first 818's on order. I said it was OK to post photos and I just didnt want people sitting in the red car. I should have given a quick look and then closed the R&D doors and let the guys get back to work.

The challenge of this project is that information on the internet is communicated multiple times and the excitement of the project can be the tail that wags the dog. I have been VERY strrict about the management, directions, goals, and effort behind this car. There really hasn't been a stone left unturned and the team, led by Jim, has done a very professional job of following the original design goals. Do I expect you guys to believe us or do anything other than evaluate the product based on it's own merits? No, I do not. I know my job and that of every person here at FFR is dependant fully on your firsthand evaluation of the product (not the in-process development prototype that was not set up for seat testing).

The reason though, that we don't give more of an inside look at the development (I can point to others who have allowed the entire process to be amatuerishly cobbled together online and the result is that the entire project gets completely run off the rails chasing "feedback" without any sense of design goals and clarity of purpose or engineering of any type) is probably BEST shown by what just happened yesterday.

The 818S was driven off the truck from the photo studio. A group of customers was with me and I showed them much more of the cars than we have done up to now. I was specific about the red car and actually, during the tour, did not want anyone sitting in the car. I recall actually closing the door as one of the guys excitedly tried to sit in the car and was opening the door. I didn't want to offend anyone, but the red car was NOT ready for people to sit in and evaluate. It had been built for a car show with stock seats that were mounted to a simple custom bracket that raised the already puffy OEM seat a good 4 inches! We did not position the steering or pedal box at all, and at SEMA, did not allow people to sit in the car for that exact reason. The original design goal, I can assure you, was to design a car that would provide more space than the other FFR cars. I called it "wookie capable".

What I got, was a picture of a guy who is 5'5" tall NOT fitting very well in the car posted to the forum. Imagine if I had to take the time to explain these types of developmental things when Jim and the engineers already had designed sufficient space yet the cars that were built for SEMA were not built for that purpose at all and the efforts to set-up the cockpit were not taken because there were other considerations and priorities. I asked the guys to build two cars for SEMA, a 818 street car and an 818R Race car. What we have shown is a VERY close version of the actual production cars (perhaps our very best prototypes ever).

We have done a GREAT job incorporating feedback and outside expertise into the project in an organized way, but if we start allowing the project to be directed from the outside, we fail because the outside world isnt using the same playbook and doesn't understand all the vectors that have to be brought together at various times thruought the design and build process. One example of this is the nose design. IF we are successful at our design goals on the mold making and design side, we will be enabled to make variant body panel shapes and multiple bodies. If we spend all our energies up front on this and refine a body that is already damn good looking, we'll undermine both goals of production start-up AND profitability which enabes further changes! The guys who would have us spend tons more time on a nose change are unaware of the position in the pert chart matrix of the job and how interconnected that is to 1000 other job/task lines that wre either branched and enabled or delayed and then prevented. It's fun stuff, but no decision is without an affect to the pert chart.

I think that I will stick to my original plan, and that is to ciommunicate directly with customers who have pre-orders placed at regular intervals (3-5 weeks) as we approach production in the mid point of the coming year. I was supposed to be writing this today and still may get this out to you pre-order guys!

My number one priority IS the successfull conclusion of the design and the successful launch of this very important project.

I am INFINITELY grateful for the feedback of the community and it was perhaps a mistake to show too much too soon of the cars. We'll be heading to the track soon with an outside development team with the blue 818R and the red car in pictures no longer exists and was torn down literally within hours of those photos. We will not miss our goals and I hope you guys can see that the professionalism and strict adherence to plan has been a religion here with this car. Behind the scenes ALOT of people are counting on us to do this right. We also have corp partners whose reputations are at stake that we have to be mindful of... All this combines to mean that this will be the best FFR to date and a high water mark for the crew. It is fully our own design, and as good as it already is (10 years ago I would've shipped it right now!) it has to set records for us in almost every category.

Lastly, I dont sleep. I mean it. I dont sleep, I cant sleep, I am having the most fun of my entire life. I have a GREAT team here of the best people, I have corporate partners (Jeremy from Solidworks is here today with $25K worth of hardware and un-obtanium software helping us) that are exceptional!, I have a design that makes me want to jump in and drop the hammer, I have everything I ever wanted and cannot imagine this is anything resembling work. I only lack hours and time. There isnt enough time in the day and sleep seems to be such a waste! Hang on tight, this is going to be a fun car!

and big guys will fit in it.

[Mechie3]

Honestly Dave, a lot of companies give NO look at all. Whether it be NDA's, fear of people copying, patent issues, etc, everyone is in the dark until the final reveal. I think there's enough people on here involved in engineering of some sort to understand prototyping and the sweeping changes that can be made. There also seems to be enough other people that don't work in a similar environment that think prototype simply means the first production run.

I'm still grateful you showed as much as you did already and understand major changes can still occur within the original scope of an open top roadster.

[Xusia]

I too am grateful for the peek. I honestly wouldn't sweat too much about any comments on this forum. In the end you will deliver an outstanding product, and any concerns based on the prototypes won't even be a memory!

[David Hodgkins]

I was at SEMA and tried to sneak into the red car before the show, which had it's door handles covered with tape. I was stopped by Dave and he explained the issues to me that he spelled out above. After seeing the 818R layout I remain confident that I'll fit in the car and I'm bigger than all you guys (NOT something I'm proud of BTW).

Dave has said that the car has room and I believe him. I fit in my roadster with a few very simple bolt-in mods and when I look at the 818 design there really is no comparison. When I first tried out the roadsters I must have sat in 20 of them and couldn't work the pedals in any of them. In many, I couldn't even close the door! Now, I let big guys sit in my car at every show I attend to let them know that they can fit in a roadster. I'm sure that the original roadster design goal didn't include guys like me. I'm not expecting a ton of room by any means but just looking at the 818R tells me they have designed a bigger amount of space than the roadster has. And if I can make the roadster fit, this car will be a no-brainer. I'm prepared to put my money on the line and can't wait until I'm turning wrenches on this thing.

:)

[Flamshackle]

Guys... and big guys will fit in it.

Thanks Dave and sorry for not thinking it through :o

PS I was just a little paranoid after trying to fit into a Murtaya and discovering I was staring OVER the top of the windshield.

Looking forward to this next year. LOVE the look of it!

[flynntuna]

This conversation on this forum is a two edge sword. On one hand a wealth of important and useful information is posted providing a exceptional source to further a members needs to build a car. On the other, inaccurate or otherwise incomplete info. can lead to members like myself and others to post comments not thinking of the rammifications. FFR is doing a fantastic job, and the members of this forum are among the best around.

[ATOLightning]

I met with two pre-order customers today and spent a good amount of time showing them the 818R and the 818S (the S model was just photographed at the studio and we will post those photos shortly). I tried to give them as much information as possible and will be sending an e-mail to everyone who has a pre-order for the 818 placed soon.

https://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/erikt818.jpg

Pre-order customer Erik Treves tries on the 818R for size.

We've all heard the comment about how you don't sit in a roadster, you wear it...This looks like the 818 ate our friend Erik:cool:

[fact5racer]

As RM1SepEx quoted:

"I can guarantee you that they are using detailed body sized dummies "

Hey, as FFR's "inhouse" test pilot, I take that personally!!

[mydream]

Guys.

THIS is EXACTLY why we don't do this before the car is done. I SPECIFICALLY said that the red car was thrown together without cockpit attention and the seat was the stock seat, in the wrong spot, mounted with a non-production bracket and the pedals were not set up. The entire staff is laughing their *** off at me saying "I told you so". We did not allow anyone at SEMA to sit in the red car becuase it was not done and I did not want anyone in the red car but guys just jumped in and now the information is released that is wrong. Now photos are posted of the car the way it WILL NOT go to production. Take my word that the car will accomodate wookies. Lesson learned.

Dave, STOP justifying yourself man!!!
Do what you need to do, and WHEN you and the team are ready to release the car, then release it.
I understand that you wanted to please other by showing the car off but it seem it's turning against you. People need to understand (and I'm sure all previous F5's owners do..) that you are building an affordable performance car from scratch and there are many challenges.
The public has now seen the "idea of the car" now take the time and go ahead and finish it. I'm very exited about it and can't wait to sit in one and surely own one. My name is NOT on the list but could be. I'm just sitting back and waiting for the real show to start. Like mentioned before, you are not at your first rodeo, you and the team have my full confidence.

For others to know, I'm 6 feet 215LBS I own a MK3 roadster with Kirkey seats and I'm very comfortable in the car. I did add padding for my bum "butt" that's it.(they are race car seats after all..) Mine are not mounted directly to floor as they would of been too low.
So if the 818 has more room, the bigger boyz will fit.
If I wanted a Cadillac, I would of bought a Cadillac.

Keep up the good work, the team has done a fantastic job.


T.

[blueoval_bowtie_guy]

Dave has said that the car has room and I believe him.
:)

That is one something I think the vast majority of FactoryFive customers would agree with: you can believe what Dave says.

[MiniVanMan]

This is a good moment for a sports quote.


If a coach starts listening to the fans, he winds up sitting next to them.

Keep doing what you're doing Dave, and team. I'm sure many, if not most, of us understand when to shut up, sit down, and let the professionals do what they do.

Oh, and I can't believe I'm the only one that would LOVE to see that pert chart. I know it's not going to happen, but that thing's gotta be intense.

[Ray]

This is bad news for wookies like me. if this guy is 5.5 and his head is higher than the rollover hoop then at 6.4 Ill be peering over the windshield.

Any word for us wookies Dave Smith?

If David Hodgkins is interested enough to order one, and he is "wookie sized" there shouldn't be any trouble for + size drivers.....

Ray

[bstuke]

I have corporate partners (Jeremy from Solidworks is here today with $25K worth of hardware and un-obtanium software helping us)

So now the guys have Z800/Z820 Workstations? Those things rock the house!

[RM1SepEx]

As RM1SepEx quoted:

"I can guarantee you that they are using detailed body sized dummies "

Hey, as FFR's "inhouse" test pilot, I take that personally!!

Funny, you know what I mean... They are using very advanced software tools and I'm sure that they are placing software generated "dummies" from say 5th to 95th percentile size within the virtual cockpit.

Bottom line the cockpit is the largest in the F5 stable and it will fit most individuals. As you get farther towards the extreme end of the arthropodmetric range, expect to be more "creative" finding solutions. Nothing new here!

The F5 team is doing a bang up job here, can't wait to get mine!

[metalmaker12]

Why are we still on the wookie, your going to fit omg. I think I am going on a vacation from this forum.

[bstuke]

Check = cashed!

Now to find a good donor.