Large drivers and the 818R

[Grintch]

I saw somewhere that the intent with the 818 was to be able to fit a "wookie", well Chewbacca will not fit under the main hoop of the 818R. He certainly won't fit the required 2" under it while wearing a helmet. I would be surprised if a 6 foot driver would fit (I'm 6'4", and long through the torso, so when seated am as "tall" as a typical 6'6" driver). It actually reminds me of the look of the early SRF roll cages, before they realized the average American male wouldn't legally fit in them and they added the "tall man" kit. Cutting off the existing main hoop and bracing and making them taller is not fun or cheap. So can we take a hard look at that, and if you want to keep the sexy low line of the SEMA car, at least add a tall man option with a higher hoop?

And while talking about the cage, I don't think it is a great idea to set it up to be single seater only. The track-day market prefers 2 seat cars, and the current cage has a brace running right through where the passenger seat would be.

[veloce2]

have the bar removable?

[Mechie3]

The 1 passenger 818R question has been asked, and partially answered. Jim put it there for now, not sure if it'll be in the production version. The R bar is a bit taller than the S bar. There's pics of people in the seats of the S (non stock seats in the go kart) with their head under the bar. there's also a pic of someone in the R (side view).

[Oppenheimer]

If wookies don't fit with the stock Subie seats, and must go aftermarket to fit, I find that acceptable (being a torso-wookie myself). So far that seems like what we're dealing with (use of lower aftermarket seats will make all the difference).

Of course, there will always be a limit. Will Yao Ming fit? Probably no one will get too upset that he won't. But what will the limit be without major chassis mods? Probably somewhere between 'Tall-ish American male with long torso' and Yao Ming. Its how close to the Yao Ming end of the scale that is the question, which we're all trying to find the answer to.

[VD2021]

Since chances are extremely slim that I will be able to sit in the 818, like I did with the GTM, prior to purchase. I would be extremely happy with someone measuring the distance from the deck to the bottom of roll bar for the "R" and to a point, in line with the top of the roof and roll bar, on the "S". I could actually make a solid determination with the measurement.

[Grintch]

If wookies don't fit with the stock Subie seats, and must go aftermarket to fit, I find that acceptable (being a torso-wookie myself). So far that seems like what we're dealing with (use of lower aftermarket seats will make all the difference).

Of course, there will always be a limit. Will Yao Ming fit? Probably no one will get too upset that he won't. But what will the limit be without major chassis mods? Probably somewhere between 'Tall-ish American male with long torso' and Yao Ming. Its how close to the Yao Ming end of the scale that is the question, which we're all trying to find the answer to.

The only picture I have seen showing main hoop clearance is what appears to be an average sized guy who barely fits under the 2" limit WITHOUT a helmet. And it appears he, WITHOUT a helmet would fail the "broomstick" test (driver must be below a line drawn from the rear hoop to the front hoop). And that is in the SEMA R car which already has a race seat in it. My helmet adds almost 2.5" to my height (a SAH2010 Bell GTX2, which I think is just beyond one of the size jumps and so has the outer shell of the next larger outer shell with extra padding on the inside to make up the difference + the SA2010 helmets seem to be thicker to meet the new regulations).

P.S. Chewbacca is 7'3", which if that is typical for a wookie, means that the rumored/stated design intent to fit a wookie is a fail.

[riptide motorsport]

If your going with the R version, it doesn't seem too dificult nor exspensive to cut and reweld a higher bar.

[Grintch]

If I have to rework the cage to be legal, whats the point in getting the R model?

[riptide motorsport]

Brcause you cant fabricate the car yourself, thats why.

[timmy318]

If I have to rework the cage to be legal, whats the point in getting the R model?

You wouldn't need to rework the whole cage, just extend the rollbar which really isn't that hard. If you don't like doing that then either hire it out to someone or just don't get an 818. Also, the S model isn't designed for racing and won't meet some standards(correct me if I'm wrong though). It can be used to race but isn't ideal for it & that's why FF developed the R model which is a prue breed racer along with the S.

[akjason]

If I have to rework the cage to be legal, whats the point in getting the R model?

I agree. For those saying to just cut and extend the main hoop, is that even allowed by the sanctioning bodies? According to nasa ccr section 15.6.6, it doesn't seem to be. I admit i'm not intimately familiar with the rules, so i may be wrong.


The main roll cage hoop should be as wide as the full width of the interior and must be as close to the roof as possible without violating CCR section #15.6.20 Inspection. One continuous length of roll bar tubing shall be used as the main hoop. The main hoop must consist of not more than four (4) bends maximum, totaling one hundred eighty (180) degrees +/- ten (10) degrees.

[Oppenheimer]

The only picture I have seen showing main hoop clearance is what appears to be an average sized guy who barely fits under the 2" limit WITHOUT a helmet. And it appears he, WITHOUT a helmet would fail the "broomstick" test (driver must be below a line drawn from the rear hoop to the front hoop). And that is in the SEMA R car which already has a race seat in it. My helmet adds almost 2.5" to my height (a SAH2010 Bell GTX2, which I think is just beyond one of the size jumps and so has the outer shell of the next larger outer shell with extra padding on the inside to make up the difference + the SA2010 helmets seem to be thicker to meet the new regulations).

P.S. Chewbacca is 7'3", which if that is typical for a wookie, means that the rumored/stated design intent to fit a wookie is a fail.

The pic I just saw over on the SEMA pics thread shows a 6' 1" 190# guy with not much headroom clearance, using non-Subie seats. But in that same pic you can see there is a LOT of room under the seat to mount it lower. How much lower, I can't tell, and how thin are those seats, I can't tell that either. How torso tall is that guy in pic? Also unknown at this time. But at least there is more room to be gained.

[Grintch]

Looking at the track testing gallery, I see one driver who would appears to pass the 2" under the roll bar/cage rule, but he would not pass the broom stick test (top of helmet must be under a line drawn from the top of the rear hoop to the top of the front hoop). Several others show drivers who would fail both tests (and one is very marginal for being at all under the main hoop, which is required for even the mod autocross classes and the really lax trackday organizations).

Can we start working on the problem now?

[Xusia]

For all we know, the problem is already solved.

How about we wait until the final product is released, before we worry too much about what might be. Or might not be...

[blueafro]

Or for all we know, FFR doesn't realize this will be important to many customers, and discussing the problem may bring it to their attention. Why wait until the product is complete before mentioning that this could be a problem?

[Xusia]

Why wait until the product is complete before mentioning that this could be a problem?


Because they have tons of experience racing
Because they've committed the 818 to being "wookie compatible"
But mostly because that doesn't give them the credit I think they deserve. This isn't their first rodeo...

[blueafro]

If they have the problem under control, no harm in talking about it.

If they don't have the problem under control, no harm in talking about it.

You allude to FFR's earlier efforts as a reason to have confidence, but I think of the headroom and halo bar clearance of the GTM and come to the opposite conclusion. The first serious racing team that campaigned that car moved the driver's seat to the center to gain adequate helmet clearance.

No doubt it will be an easier problem to handle on an open car.

[Xusia]

If they have the problem under control, no harm in talking about it.

If they don't have the problem under control, no harm in talking about it.

True. It just seems like inventing a problem to me, but to each his own! :)

[Grintch]

The prototype in testing obviously has an issue. So I see no basis to assume it has already been fixed.

Fitting large American drivers in small racing cars has been an issue since the first racing car. And it only get worse as the Americans get bigger and rules creep tends to make the cars effectively smaller. My SAH 2010 helmet is a good inch or more taller than my old SA 2000 helmet which required some extensive mods to the seat in my SRF to get me close to being legal [I suspect I am not without scrunching down, and thus wouldn't pass muster with a picky scrutineer].

[Joe Scott]

Hey Guys,

Height of drivers is an obvious thing we have taken into consideration quite some time ago.

[Grintch]

Great. Is there going to be a "tall man" option, or just a taller main hoop & cage for everyone?

[blueafro]

Hey Guys,

Height of drivers is an obvious thing we have taken into consideration quite some time ago.

Good to hear. :)

[EricScottZehnder]

One thing that most people seem concerned about is being 2" under the roll bar. This is understandable but if your feet are at ridiculous angles under the steering rack, barely able to operate the pedals or even think about heel-toe it's not really worth it. Really hoping the information comes in soon about specifically what we're dealing with as large drivers and what it looks like.

Honestly, it seems like the easiest thing for them to do is use a built 818 (prototype or finalized) and just video a very small person, medium, and large person getting in to the car, operating the pedals, showing the leg room, hip room and wheel orientation for them and then getting out. I'm sure they have staffers that fit the bill.

[AZPete]

Eric, see my reply to your thread about the 818 manual. You, and others, can build the 818 to fit . . . seats, pedals, steering column and wheel, and other mods.