The OFFICIAL H-6 into an FFR 818 thread......

[Turboguy]

Hey guys-


Rather than hi-jacking or derailing other threads, why don't we use this new thread to pose our questions, and share our knowledge regarding installing a flat-6 into FFR's new 818.





I'll start the ball rolling -- does anyone have dimensions for the EG33 engine that powered the SVX?



Also, is the new 3.6L H-6 based on the same block as Subaru's new 3.0L H6?

[Turboguy]

For those looking to whet their H-6 appetite, here's a sound clip of a Porsche 911 powered by a EG33 flat-6 out of a late 90's Subaru SVX:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4cVMmJKyLg


Music!

[flynntuna]

It's been said that the 6cyl won't fit , but that is with the fuel tank between the engine and the seats. relocating the gas tank to the front should give plenty of room.

[bbjones121]

I don't think it is worth trying to fit the H6 into this car. Way overkill. If you want torque, stroke the 2.5, if you want horsepower, get a larger turbo. Everyone knows how to tune the H4, you could probably get one online for the 818. There would be absolutely no reason to go through the trouble of fitting the H6 into the 818. Just because it could probably be done, doesn't make it a smart thing to do.

[Turboguy]

It's been said that the 6cyl won't fit, but that is with the fuel tank between the engine and the seats...

I've read in many places that the new EZ30 is only 0.75" longer than the 2.5L turbo four in the 'rex. I do not know the dimensions of the older EG33.




I don't think it is worth trying to fit the H6 into this car. Way overkill. Blah, blah, blah


Thank you for the input, but this thread isn't about should we or shouldn't we - it's more about "is this possible" and "what options would work". Those of us intrigued by going this route have our reasons why we're here ;)

WRX motors can do lots things -- but can they sound like a flat-6? :D




NOW- back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Here is a clip of a newer EZ30 that was transplanted into a Porsche 914:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAfQMPtz2-k

[mug23]

Stroking the 2.5 motor will cost almost as much as the 818 kit itself and you still need to get the correct turbo size for that motor and that will run the cost up even more. Fitting the H6 will cost much less and still get the torque and almost instant throttle response. Building the H6 up to rev up to 8.5K rpm will sure provide that sexy exhaust tone that the 4 cannot provide.

[Canadian818]

I had the same trouble in my twin turbo thread, lots of people saying it was pointless. But thats the internet for ya, for every 9 worthless posters there's one willing to help.

I have no interest in doing the H6, however i'll help brainstorm.

What are the factory output numbers on the H6's?
How many variations are there of subaru H6's? Just the EZ30 and EG33? If so, what vehicals did they come in?
Was either H6 ever mounted to a manual transmission? If not, will any subaru trannies work?


Until someone has a 818 to measure off of, we won't know for sure. But i'm confident that it can be made to fit. There might be enough room to move the entire assembly back an inch and run the driveshafts at more of an angle or custom shafts. While undesireable, it might be possible to move up an inch for clearance. Gas tanks are easy enough to modify or relocate so i wouldn't worry to much about that. No doubt there will be compromises though.

It boggles my mind how people can't wrap their head around modifying a kit car. EXAMPLE: The STI transmission isn't supported....so what! Someone with enough determination will find a way to make it 2wd, and someone else will find away to make it look pretty hanging out past the bumper. And if we're supportive in their endevour, they might even share the info with us! Imagine!

[JRach]

EG33- Front of the crank pulley to the back of the bellhousing is 24" :) (which is 6" longer than the ej205/ej255/ej257)

[Matty_STi]

The new large displacement h6 (EZ3.6D) come with offset connecting rods, probably be crazy expensive to get custom offset/asymmetrical forged rods made. The other EZ series engines have one exhaust port per cylinder, again not so great. Micah (homemadewrx and of 3MI fame) says the EG is the way to go for high HP in the H6. If we are talking in the 200-350whp then yeah any h6 is fine, but if higher rpms or big hp numbers are the game then the EJ H4s or EG H6's are the way to do it. Keep in mind you want to run an H6 to 8k-9k you are going to need to do some serious valvetrain work and also crank, piston and rod work, which will get reaaaaaallly expensive really fast as the market for those parts is so small, in other words you are looking at one off custom pieces and all the woes that come with trying to get the tolerances right for all those pieces especially if you don't pay out the nose up front.

I love the idea of high HP high revving H6 but man that seems like a lot of work. But like I have said before I am probably (depends on final cost versus a built ej257) going to drop a built EG33 in my sti, may also try to do a variable vane holset turbo that I have hybrided with EFR parts, and looking for 600-700 at the wheels with minimal lag daily driver (though I am not remise at playing with the ez30r, dunno it's winter and I have time to look at dollars and cents). I may end up putting an H6 in my 818, or, blergh, too many options!!!

Just my 2 cents.

Matt

[Matty_STi]

I had the same trouble in my twin turbo thread, lots of people saying it was pointless. But thats the internet for ya, for every 9 worthless posters there's one willing to help.

I have no interest in doing the H6, however i'll help brainstorm.

What are the factory output numbers on the H6's?
How many variations are there of subaru H6's? Just the EZ30 and EG33? If so, what vehicals did they come in?
Was either H6 ever mounted to a manual transmission? If not, will any subaru trannies work?


Until someone has a 818 to measure off of, we won't know for sure. But i'm confident that it can be made to fit. There might be enough room to move the entire assembly back an inch and run the driveshafts at more of an angle or custom shafts. While undesireable, it might be possible to move up an inch for clearance. Gas tanks are easy enough to modify or relocate so i wouldn't worry to much about that. No doubt there will be compromises though.

It boggles my mind how people can't wrap their head around modifying a kit car. EXAMPLE: The STI transmission isn't supported....so what! Someone with enough determination will find a way to make it 2wd, and someone else will find away to make it look pretty hanging out past the bumper. And if we're supportive in their endevour, they might even share the info with us! Imagine!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Subaru_engines -> helpful link for those looking.

Trannys should all be fairly easy to mate with different engines. Don't often hear of people having issues. The STi tranny isn't easy enough to make into a 2wd tranny (because of more complicated internals, dccd). There also is the problem that the tranny weighs more. I am sure if you contacted quaife or ppg (gearbox folks not the paint folks) or KAPS they could do something to help, possibly even cosworth. Gonna pay through the nose with any of those options. Could always give em a shout and see what they say, or call up or email andrewtech http://www.andrewtechautomotive.com/

[Desertrunner]

Hi guys,
we all talk SVX here,

which should help you with the back ground on the EG,

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=62

If you check out some of the projects we are working on you will see the dry sump for the EG33.
also I will ask my mate Bazza to jump in he might be able to give you a clearer understanding of the plus and minus of the different engines.

Tony

[Matty_STi]

whoops double post..



I guess I will add. H6's are heavier, by like 100lbs or so.. this is supposed to be a light weight car. You could always stroke out the 257 to 2.7L

[bbjones121]

Sorry, don't get me wrong, I owned a 1993 Anniversary SVX. I loved it, the way it holds the road at high speed, the few style changes you could do to make it look exotic, and the fact that you could have the windows down in the rain... Once my second tranny was going out from overheating, I decided it was time to move on. I almost purchased a Toyota or Honda until I test drove a used 2006 Legacy GT. I was always in love with Subaru's, the engineers actually design for maintenance, which you don't get very often.

If you are going to go H6, I would definitely get the SVX 3.3. The EG is a much stronger engine than the newer EZ 6 engines. If I remember correctly, it was a prototype/experiment into the 6 cylinder world. They had twin turbos and 5/6spds built and ready to sell in 93 or 94, but due to low sales in 92, ended up scrapping them. I only wish there was a way to get a hold of one of those prototype twin turbos, but I read that they were destroyed.

I think that the only reason Perrin probably made the H6 turbo was to prove they could. It probably had severe longevity issues.

Tuning these cars once they are built will be the trick and there are much more H4 tuners around, but I am sure they would love to jump on the opportunity to be the first to tune an H6 in the 818.

[bbjones121]

Hi guys,
we all talk SVX here,

which should help you with the back ground on the EG,

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=62


I use to be on subaru-svx.net a lot.

[bbjones121]

Here is a good sight for SVX parts:
http://svx-motorsport-accessories.stores.yahoo.net/index.html

[Movieman]

I don't think it is worth trying to fit the H6 into this car. Way overkill. If you want torque, stroke the 2.5, if you want horsepower, get a larger turbo. Everyone knows how to tune the H4, you could probably get one online for the 818. There would be absolutely no reason to go through the trouble of fitting the H6 into the 818. Just because it could probably be done, doesn't make it a smart thing to do.

Things like this get done because in one mans mind he says "What if" and goes from there.
It is what drives innovation and also proves the mistakes we can make but in the end we all learn from that one mans drive and vision.
I remember back in 1977 having this little 2600cc V6 1973 Mercury capri, liking the body lines but just wishing it had some more "stones"
142HP at the flywheel, 107HP at the rear wheels..
Dropping in a V8 was out of the question, doable but with a lot of $$ and fabrication.
Turbo's were very new then, just the Turbo 911 Porsche if I remember and that was $25,000.00 back then..BIG money.
Short version, $1700.00 later 15 lbs of boost, 275HP at the rear wheels on a chassis dyno and a little sleeper of a beast.
If I'd listened to my friends I wouldn't have done it.
Sometimes you just have to listen to your heart.

[skullandbones]

^^ I agree you should not stiffle innovation. Some ideas are good and should be tried and some should stay in your head. A small group of young hot rodders (me included) decided to get together and build a drag car for exhibition. Well, the great idea was a detuned Allison engine in an Anglia. Oh well, there turned out to be so many reasons that wouldn't work, we eventually gave up! But compared to that, the H6 doesn't seem to be so bad of an idea (not making fun). We're talking pretty small deminsions to overcome and there are a lot of potential benefits. The only bad thing is the $ and availability for a big build. I think those rods would be big bucks and the labor unless you could do it yourself or had a very good friend who is a machinist would be substantial. But a mildly built one might even be practical with mostly OEM stuff (as practical as this hobby gets). IMO, WEK.

[NonProfit]

OK, I'm a wet blanket but i'm here to help you...

Factory Five got some high praise because the Hot Rod takes four different motors and either a standard or automatic tras.

Yet the physical dimensions of the H-6, the STIs 6-speed and the Subie automatic, although within a few inches, remain are unapproved. Certainly in the development process, it seems a trivial matter to extend the chassis, nudge the firewall forward, or even flare the rear body panels to ensure the needed clearance. But they did not do this, even after receiving accolades for this same line of thinking with the 33.

So, I wonder if it's not about size but weight. A Porsche 912 handles much better than a 911 from the same era, as the six adds an extra 300lbs over the back axle which adversely affects handling.

Am I nuts?

[Mechie3]

I had the same trouble in my twin turbo thread, lots of people saying it was pointless. It boggles my mind how people can't wrap their head around modifying a kit car.

It's not that we (me included) couldn't wrap our minds around it, it's that a lot of us aren't new to Subarus and have been modifying them, racing them, and building engines for years and have seen these things come and go many times. For the goals you stated, a TT would have been money spent for no benefit other than being different.


Trannys should all be fairly easy to mate with different engines.

They should bolt right up without much issue. EG's will work fine with stock ECU, newer ones don't play nice with manuals out of the box.


I guess I will add. H6's are heavier, by like 100lbs or so.. this is supposed to be a light weight car.

Depending on the model, some were only 50lbs heavier IIRC. The EG33 used a timing belt, the newer EZ's use a timing chaing (part of the reason it's shorter front to back and more compact).


If you are going to go H6, I would definitely get the SVX 3.3. The EG is a much stronger engine than the newer EZ 6 engines. If I remember correctly, it was a prototype/experiment into the 6 cylinder world.


The EG33 was not their first H6. They had previously made the ER27 in the late 80's which was based on the EA82. The EG33 itself was based on the EJ22 with 2 addition cylinders on the back.


^^ I agree you should not stiffle innovation... The only bad thing is the $ and availability for a big build. I think those rods would be big bucks and the labor unless you could do it yourself or had a very good friend who is a machinist would be substantial.

Agree. I'm not trying to stifle innovation with my comments. I'm an engineer for a living. Most of my job starts at one point: What is the problem? Lots of money is spent by companies solving problems, but a lot of companies don't properly identify problems and thus solve symptoms, but don't find root cause. If someone says "I must go TT or must go H6 to get my hp goal", they've predefined a solution to a problem without identifying the problem. If they state "i want 300 hp", there are much easier, much cheaper, less time consuming options that work just as well. Now, if the problem statement was "I want to sound like a porsche 911", then yes, the H4 will not work. If the problem statement is "I want to be different", then yes, the H6 or TT will do that.

I like innovation, I like seeing new things done. I do believe, though, that all innovation must be done with a historical perspective, seeing what has already been done, why it worked, why it failed, how to improve, how much it cost, etc.

For Fun:

Here is an EG33 in a porsche:
http://www.precisionchassisworks.com/subaru-eg33-powered-porsche-911sc.html

Here is Nasioc's H6 resource thread lots of info there (grantd, some of it focuses on fitting into impreza chassis, but much more info there as well):
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1323800

Perrin H6 STI build thread (much more involved than their blog):
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1187722

Not H6 related, but a Subaru motor into a Beetle (will need to create an account to see this) which might also give some insight into swapability, etc.
http://indianaimpreza.com/showthread.php?t=21155&highlight=beetle

[PhyrraM]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12717&d=1351656276

Crossbar about an inch in front of the EJ crank pulley.

EG33 (SVX 3.3) is likely a serious "no-go" at 4" longer.

The newer EZ (3.0/3.6) series will likely ft with a bend or dimple in the crossbar.

I, personally, would not totally remove the bar on non-showcar without fully exploring the implications on structural integrity. There are a lot of CAD hours on the chassis, so not much is likely to be 'extra'.

[slopoke]

Does anyone have photos of the EG33, EZ30, and the EZ36 that they can post so they can be compared to one another?

[Mechie3]

For the ez36 woth offset rods, you can see how they compare dimensionally to BRZ/FRS/FA20 rods that are offset. Companies are already making forged rods for those applications.

[Xusia]

OK, I'm a wet blanket but i'm here to help you...

Factory Five got some high praise because the Hot Rod takes four different motors and either a standard or automatic tras.

Yet the physical dimensions of the H-6, the STIs 6-speed and the Subie automatic, although within a few inches, remain are unapproved. Certainly in the development process, it seems a trivial matter to extend the chassis, nudge the firewall forward, or even flare the rear body panels to ensure the needed clearance. But they did not do this, even after receiving accolades for this same line of thinking with the 33.

So, I wonder if it's not about size but weight. A Porsche 912 handles much better than a 911 from the same era, as the six adds an extra 300lbs over the back axle which adversely affects handling.

Am I nuts?

I don't think your reasoning or logic is nuts. From the outside, it seems perfectly sound! In reasoning through the same thing, I came to the conclusion its really about the project's stated design goals, most notably $9900 and a single donor. While I have no way of knowing, I'd bet one of the primary goals for the 33 Rod was to allow a large degree of customization, since that is part and parcel to such a vehicle. We already know there are other issues with STi beside the transmisison size. Not that they can't be overcome, but would doing so jeopardize the $9900 price or the project as a whole (running out of time and/or money to actually deliver a project - remember, at some point, all projects have to pay off for them or they can't stay in business). We also know the EZ H6's have issues with manual transmissions (at least in the US), and the EG's are older which means that while they are a great engine, they probably aren't a viable long term platform upon which to base a product I assume they hope to sell for years.

So if I sum all that up, I think it makes sense from a business perspective to keep the design costs low (even if that limits donor options) in order to meet the design goals and get the product launched successfully and ON TIME. Afterward, you can fold in other things. <-- and if you look at both FFR's history with the other models, AND what Dave has stated, I think you'll agree there is a good chance support for the STi transmission (and possibly even as a single donor) and use of the EX series H6 (perhaps even with an automatic) are likely to come at some future point.

Therefore, I don't fault them for these omissions, even though I personally wish they were included. :)

[PhyrraM]

The 95" wheelbase was chosen very early in the design. This is currently the most limiting factor, but being that it is one of the first chosen "hard" criteria makes it almost unmovable at later stages.

Also consider that the the original location for the fuel tank was proposed to be under the seats. The community was very scared that FFR couldn't make the car look "right" if the seats were that "high", so FFR moved it. (I'll make the point that the same community also said that Jim's version of the 818 would never be able to look "HoF" or even good.) If we were just able to leave the FFR team alone, that fuel tank location with a 95" wheelbase would have left tons of room for the H6s.


Edit: that sounded like an "I told you so". It wasn't meant to, just more of an "Ah-ha".

[bobzdar]

It's not that we (me included) couldn't wrap our minds around it, it's that a lot of us aren't new to Subarus and have been modifying them, racing them, and building engines for years and have seen these things come and go many times. For the goals you stated, a TT would have been money spent for no benefit other than being different.

Well, there's throttle response and predictability as well. Having driven both turbocharged and high revving NA motors, I vastly prefer the NA motor, especially in a competition environment (road course). Yes, you can get there with a turbo 4, but I'd much rather do it with an NA motor. If the NA 6 fits and makes significantly more power than an NA 4, that's the direction I would go. In a heartbeat. Despite what people say, I have yet to drive a turbo motor that has no turbo lag, especially at part throttle with light throttle modulations. You can work around that, but for a fun track car, I'd rather have a proper NA motor and give up a little weight and power to be able to drive the thing properly. Were I actually racing, give me the power and I'll drive around the lag and throttle response issues, but that's a different deal and would depend on the rules. So for me, if I want to really drive the car at the limit, it has to have a decently sensitive throttle. I have some trouble with this on my f355 as it has ITB's and it's sometimes tough to get light throttle tip-in after coming off the brakes. The engine vacuum holds the throttle blades shut and you have to push harder than normal to break the vacuum so it's tough to give it just a little throttle mid-corner. Turbo lag is worse, as you can give it a little throttle, but then it's not quite a enough so you give it a little more, but then the boost comes on and it's too much so you end up getting all herky jerky on corner exit or just holding it and sliding around the turn. That can make for an entertaining ride, but not so good for lap times or tires and may be a little tricky to keep on track in a very light, mid engined car.

[STeeL25T]

I have spare EG33 block and heads in my garage I can go measure if that would help anyone. They aren't bolted together, though.

For those asking for pictures, here's my block engine after getting hot tanked, milled, balanced etc. and put back together with Eagle rods and custom CP 8.5:1 pistons.



This is my built motor for those asking for pics of the engine.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/388593_10150401845783596_38671792_n.jpg

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/487335_10150618907278596_1661672152_n.jpg

You can also bolt that intake manifold on backwards if you need the throttle bodies in the front. Don't know if that would help on this swap or not.

[Xusia]

This is exactly what I'm talking about: Drive-ability. I've dealt with nearly the exact same issues with high powered motorcycles (though not caused by a turbo), and I don't care for it. Predictable and smooth throttle response is far more important to me than all out HP (and, at least for me, more fun too!).

Another benefit I thought of in regards to using the H6 is that the lack of an inter-cooler would leave more space available for a trunk. I'm actually pretty excited by that!

[Mechie3]

Well, there's throttle response and predictability as well. Having driven both turbocharged and high revving NA motors, I vastly prefer the NA motor, especially in a competition environment (road course). Yes, you can get there with a turbo 4, but I'd much rather do it with an NA motor.

They key, though, to my statement was "for the [power] goals stated". IIRC, 300hp was the original stated goal. My 2.5L with a stock wrx turbo had a flat powerband of 312hp from 3200 to 5500 rpms and lots of low end torque. Though I haven't road raced, my closest comparison for lag is autocross. There were 1 or 2 really small courses that made this a problem on 1 or 2 corners. In general, the turbo was small enough and the motor big enough I didn't have problems.

My current DD is a 2.0L wrx with a VF39 (STI Turbo, I bought it that way). The lag kills me. It came witha super loud exhaust (since changed) that was obnoxious. It was embarassing for a minivan to keep up with me on an on ramp up to 4k rpms. Once I hit 4k, goodbye, but up until then I was glad for the window tinting hiding me. lol

My current autocross car uses a CVT so the motor is always at 8800 rpms and I can certainly appreciate instant response. It's hard to compare directly to my wrx since the autocross car weights only 725lbs (with me in it). It's also a short wheelbase (72") so when power does come on it tends to kick out the back end.

If the newer H6's are only .7" longer, you could always reweld the engine and trans mounts back set slightly. The axles could certainly handle that much off axis shift.

[BrandonDrums]

The shot PhyrraM posted makes it looks like there could be really really low clearance between the front of the 4cyl and the chassis judging by the latest shots. I did find this pic which shows the engine bay from the front - It's hard to tell but it looks like there could be a bit more space up there. I wish we could find a full-on side shot of the engine bay showing the clearance between the engine and firewall bars.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12891&d=1351732667

If it turns out there isn't enough room as is to shoehorn a 6cyl in there, judging by the shot below I think the easiest thing is pulling the engine and tranny mounts back an inch and stick with the EZ30/30R/36R which is closer to just 1'' longer than the EJ 4's.

Here, you can see there's enough room to slide the whole engine/transmission back about an inch without having the half shafts risk striking the crossbar but you might need to lower the trans a tad by getting a thinner trans mounting bushing or raising the engine mounts some to ensure there's room for the axle to angle up when the suspension compresses. The trans mount tab actually looks like it's long enough as-is to just drill new holes and reinforce it a bit to move the tranny back an inch, I need to find a better shot of the engine mounting points to see what type of play there is.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12894&d=1351732671

[Desertrunner]

Well, there's throttle response and predictability as well. Having driven both turbocharged and high revving NA motors, I vastly prefer the NA motor, especially in a competition environment (road course). Yes, you can get there with a turbo 4, but I'd much rather do it with an NA motor. If the NA 6 fits and makes significantly more power than an NA 4, that's the direction I would go. In a heartbeat. Despite what people say, I have yet to drive a turbo motor that has no turbo lag, especially at part throttle with light throttle modulations. You can work around that, but for a fun track car, I'd rather have a proper NA motor and give up a little weight and power to be able to drive the thing properly. Were I actually racing, give me the power and I'll drive around the lag and throttle response issues, but that's a different deal and would depend on the rules. So for me, if I want to really drive the car at the limit, it has to have a decently sensitive throttle. I have some trouble with this on my f355 as it has ITB's and it's sometimes tough to get light throttle tip-in after coming off the brakes. The engine vacuum holds the throttle blades shut and you have to push harder than normal to break the vacuum so it's tough to give it just a little throttle mid-corner. Turbo lag is worse, as you can give it a little throttle, but then it's not quite a enough so you give it a little more, but then the boost comes on and it's too much so you end up getting all herky jerky on corner exit or just holding it and sliding around the turn. That can make for an entertaining ride, but not so good for lap times or tires and may be a little tricky to keep on track in a very light, mid engined car.

I totally agree, I also beleive that if you can get your NA engine to develop power through a torque band, 5K to 10k then you aren't changing gear every 5 secs. When you watch a video of the turbo car on a track from inside it just seems to behave different to a NA high rev car. NA cars seems to corner neater and hold there line better.

We are spending a heap of money and time to get a SVX engine to run at 10,000rpm at which it should develop close to 400hp engine. So I ask which would you rather a 400hp NA or a 400hp turbo.

Great topic guys.

Tony

[Xusia]

So I ask which would you rather a 400hp NA or a 400hp turbo.

HP being equal, I can't think of a single reason that's important to me that would cause me to want the turbo...

[Mechie3]

Depends on the size of the motor with the turbo and what the power bands look like. As much as I like turbo cars I hate power bands where you get nothing until 4k rpms.

[bbjones121]

HP being equal, I can't think of a single reason that's important to me that would cause me to want the turbo...

I can think of two very big reasons to go turbo. Altitude and gas mileage.

[Xusia]

I can think of two very big reasons to go turbo. Altitude and gas mileage.


HP being equal, I can't think of a single reason that's important to me that would cause me to want the turbo...

I live basically at sea level and as I mentioned in another post, anything is improvement over the 13mpg I get in my truck. Any fuel economy loss (compared to a turbo) is a small price to pay for the throttle response and torque curve I want.

[PhyrraM]

Personally, I think a bone stock 256HP/247TQ 3.6 liter H6 mixed with a manual transmission with the tallest final drive I can figure out how to get in a Subaru (currently 3.7:1 in a 1990-1994 Legacy FWD 5speed) is the perfect combo for a street driven 818.

[Xusia]

You think as I do!!! :)

[Thorne]

They key, though, to my statement was "for the [power] goals stated". IIRC, 300hp was the original stated goal. My 2.5L with a stock wrx turbo had a flat powerband of 312hp from 3200 to 5500 rpms and lots of low end torque. Though I haven't road raced, my closest comparison for lag is autocross. There were 1 or 2 really small courses that made this a problem on 1 or 2 corners. In general, the turbo was small enough and the motor big enough I didn't have problems.

My current DD is a 2.0L wrx with a VF39 (STI Turbo, I bought it that way). The lag kills me. It came witha super loud exhaust (since changed) that was obnoxious. It was embarassing for a minivan to keep up with me on an on ramp up to 4k rpms. Once I hit 4k, goodbye, but up until then I was glad for the window tinting hiding me. lol

My current autocross car uses a CVT so the motor is always at 8800 rpms and I can certainly appreciate instant response. It's hard to compare directly to my wrx since the autocross car weights only 725lbs (with me in it). It's also a short wheelbase (72") so when power does come on it tends to kick out the back end.

If the newer H6's are only .7" longer, you could always reweld the engine and trans mounts back set slightly. The axles could certainly handle that much off axis shift.

I previously owned a vf39 2.0.. you are making more tq sooner then a stock wrx. Just saying and if you getting beat because of rpm SHIFT GEARS.

[bbjones121]

I think this comes down to learning how to drive a turbocharged vehicle. I think it is kinda fun to play with the lag, egg people on by staying right with them and then waving goodbye as you control the boost. You learn to push the clutch in slightly, ramp of the RPM's, then bye bye whenever you want. If you ride with someone that knows how to control a turbo car, you would be surprised what it can do. I think that is what makes it fun, it isn't just a lazy push your foot to the floor and go, it takes some major learning.

I think the H6 would sound great in this car, but this car is a tuned sports car, it isn't your muscle car. To me, it needs to have the whooshing sound as the turbo spools, and I personally would want to dump my wastegate straight to atmosphere so you leave people wondering what in the world just happened.

Make a statement, This is a race car!!!!

[el_jefe]

High compression motor + small turbo(s) = quick throttle response. My thought is to put a couple small turbo's on an EZ30, and have boost settings for DD (300hp), track (400hp), and ohmygodimgonnaDIE (500 hp). Add some meth injection for the high hp settings and done.

[Xusia]

I think this comes down to learning how to drive a turbocharged vehicle. I think it is kinda fun to play with the lag, egg people on by staying right with them and then waving goodbye as you control the boost. You learn to push the clutch in slightly, ramp of the RPM's, then bye bye whenever you want. If you ride with someone that knows how to control a turbo car, you would be surprised what it can do. I think that is what makes it fun, it isn't just a lazy push your foot to the floor and go, it takes some major learning.

I think the H6 would sound great in this car, but this car is a tuned sports car, it isn't your muscle car. To me, it needs to have the whooshing sound as the turbo spools, and I personally would want to dump my wastegate straight to atmosphere so you leave people wondering what in the world just happened.

Make a statement, This is a race car!!!!

You like turbos. I get it. I don't. Different strokes for different folks. We CAN peacefully coexist, can't we? :)


I'd like to make a request: That those not interested in the H6 stop trying to preach the merits of the almighty turbo in this thread (which is supposed to be about the viability of the H6 in the 818). Those of us interested in H6 have our reasons for wanting it - whatever they may be. Isn't that enough? The CEO of Subaru himself could show up with a Nobel prize winning engineer and deliver a 4 hour presentation on the merits of turbo charging and why the H6 is not as good, and I'd STILL want an H6 over the turbo H4. That's just me. PLEASE accept me as I am, and not how you'd like me to be! :)


P.S. YES, I'm a bit of a smart @ss, and YES that was meant to be funny, but also to politely make a serious request. Thank you. :)

[Desertrunner]

I always think why talk about a 4 cyclinder with a turbo when you can have a 6 with a turbo

[el_jefe]

See post #39

[bbjones121]

Haha. Good speech. I would probably feel differently if I lived at sea level. I am sorry to speak about NA and forced induction the way I do, but this thread may be misguiding for people that live at altitude and don't fully understand the downfalls of naturally aspirated engines.

[bbjones121]

I always think why talk about a 4 cyclinder with a turbo when you can have a 6 with a turbo
+1 to that. Even a smaller turbo.

[Mechie3]

I previously owned a vf39 2.0.. you are making more tq sooner then a stock wrx.

My previous car was a non stock 06WRX that makes my 2.0VF39 feel super slow. At the drag strip, my stock turbo'd WRX (stage 2.999 ;) ) beat many basic stage 2 STI's (and I'm an autocrosser, not a dragger).

Anyways...back to the H6.

[veloce2]

Why not move the gas tank to the two voids behind the passengers, like a Pantera. Then you can use the space behind the seats. The other option is to have some type of split side tanks that sit under a raised door sill.

[skullandbones]

Why not move the gas tank to the two voids behind the passengers, like a Pantera. Then you can use the space behind the seats. The other option is to have some type of split side tanks that sit under a raised door sill.

If you rearrange the "fuel tank or tanks" and do some modification of the cross member to make room for the balancer moving forward a little, it should work. The cross member can be reinforced without any sophisticated engineering. It's pretty straight forward. Of course, you would have to do a custom fire wall panel but that might be a blessing in disguise, since it would require the panel to be shaped a little so the resonance of the aluminum would be minimized some for that panel at least. IMO, WEK.

[Xusia]

Based on what I've seen in the pictures, I am SURE an EZ H6 will physically. Most likely without any structural modifications. It's only 3/4" longer, and there looks to be at least that much room between the H4 and the frame. I'm more worried about mating it with manual (from an electronics standpoint - it should mate physically with no issues). PhyrraM mentioned in a previous thread after market engine management is probably the best route. So what options exist? Anyone?

[Mechie3]

PhyrraM mentioned in a previous thread after market engine management is probably the best route. So what options exist? Anyone?

I think a Hydra is what Perrin Used. It's listed in their build thread somewhere. Since they used it, there would be maps for it already (at least in boosted form). Only downside is it's a $2k option (if money is an object for you).

[LS1RX7owen]

man, if the H6 is even 3" longer, cant those who want it just hack the rear of the frame off at the firewall and make a 3" long adapter wall to make up for the needed length?

I mean its not that difficult to think of several ways that longer motor can be made to fit, with and without having to also modify the body / rear wheel openings, etc.

[Xusia]

Of course! There are many who are worried about modicaitons to the frame comprising its structural integrity. I'm not worried because I think it will fit without any mods. *IF* I had to, I'd prefer to move the engine mounts back a bit before cutting on the frame.

[Xusia]

I think a Hydra is what Perrin Used. It's listed in their build thread somewhere. Since they used it, there would be maps for it already (at least in boosted form). Only downside is it's a $2k option (if money is an object for you).

Money is an object, and at $2k, it's a no go for me. If it gets too expensive to do the H6, I'll just have to go with a turbo'd H4.

[Mechie3]

+1 for moving mounts back an inch.

I think that's the price for a new Hydra. Don't know if megasquirt can do it or what all ECU's can be modded to run 6's or modded to run without an auto. The guys at open source or romraider might have more info. You can probably also find used hydras and such too.

[PhyrraM]

Don't forget that the purchase price of a stand-alone is only 1/2 of the equation. Most folks will also need it to be professionally tuned. that can be a few hundred $$ to a few thousand $$, depending on availability of base maps and the quality of the tune in all areas of the load/RPM map.

[Benji]

I got a couple of pics today that might be of interest, just waiting on the coach to take us back to the hotel.

[PhyrraM]

I got a couple of pics today that might be of interest, just waiting on the coach to take us back to the hotel.

A picture of the clearance between the cross rail and the crank pulley will tell all.

[Benji]

A picture of the clearance between the cross rail and the crank pulley will tell all.

Along those lines, a 'hand' measurement.

[Xusia]

I've done some research and it looks like just about any aftermarket engine management is going to run $2K. Add in the additional cost of sourcing an H6, and it's not going to fit in my budget -unless I get REALLY lucky and run across a suitable Impreza donor for like $800 (for all the parts OTHER than the engine). Me sad... :(

[mug23]

Well, I was able to source a EG33 with around 130K on the motor which includes wiring but the ECU would be extra for $400 just the engine. I'm going to rebuild the motor of course and I think this is very doable once more info is available.

[PhyrraM]

Just keep in mind that we are dealing with 1" for the EZ series.

We are dealing with 4" for the EG.

[Benji]

I may have to do this one at a time. Note that my hand is a medium sized hand, they aren't great bear paws and they aren't tiny bat claws.

I have the larger files but will probably have to upload them when I'm on a real connection.

1307413075130761307713078

[PhyrraM]

Thanks for the pics. Nice job.

As estimated before, I think the EZ will work, while the EG is simply too long.

[Benji]

Yup, I'm surprised at how far the engine is tilted forwards though, is that how it is in an Impreza?

How much do EZ's cost? As far as I can tell from your info the major problem with an EZ was that there was no ECU in the US with a manual trans, can one from outside the US be imported? What about using something like a MegaSquirt instead?

[slopoke]

this info is direct from wiki .... for what it's worth

EG33: 3318 cc DOHC, 230 hp@5400 used in the 1992–1997 Subaru Alcyone SVX

[edit] Subaru EZ engine





Subaru EZ36
The (Japanese: Subaru EZ series) was introduced in 1999 in the Japanese market, in the Subaru Outback, and in 2000 in the United States market. It is a flat-six, 24-valve, quad cam motor with an aluminium block and heads. The number of exhaust ports per cylinder varies. It is available in EZ30 and EZ36 variants. The later EZ30D used from 2003 to 2009 was heavily updated from the early EZ30D used from 2001 to 2003. It received new cylinder heads with 3 exhaust ports per head and variable intake valve timing. All use dual timing chains and coil-on-plug ignition.
EZ30D: 2999 cc DOHC, 220ps (161 kW) @6000 rpm, 289Nm@4400 rpm. Bore 89.2 mm, Stroke 80 mm. Compression 10.7:1. This version uses one exhaust port per head, a cable throttle, variable intake geometry, cast aluminium intake manifold, and has a 6500 rpm rev limit. It was only available with an automatic transmission. Found in the 2000–2002 Outback H6, Legacy GT30 and Legacy Lancaster 6.
EZ30D: 2999CC DOHC, 245ps (180 kW) @6600 rpm, 297Nm@4200 rpm. Bore 89.2 mm, Stroke 80 mm. Compression 10.7:1. This version had one exhaust port per cylinder, a drive-by-wire throttle, a black plastic intake manifold, VVL and AVCS. It was available in manual and automatic unlike the old EZ30D. Found in the 2003–2009 Legacy 3.0R, Outback 3.0R and 2006–2007 Tribeca.
EZ36D: 3629CC DOHC, 260ps (191 kW) @6000 rpm, 335Nm@4400 rpm. Bore 92 mm, Stroke 91 mm. Compression 10.5:1. Found in the 2010-current Legacy, Outback and 2008-current Tribeca. The EZ36D incorporates possibly the only implementation of an asymmetrical connecting rod in a modern application. The offset connecting rod was designed to allow additional displacement from the same exterior dimensions.[12]

[Mechie3]

I just went out and looked, the alternator runs off the front of the crank pulley. On the EJ25, there's no room to move it backwards unless you move it to where the AC was. You'd have enough room to shift it back and run it off the back of the crank pulley. Machine off the front 1"+ of the pulley and your 4" EG is now only 3" too long. Depending on where the crank pulley and that cross bar lie, the crank pulley might not be in the way.

Another question, is the 4" longer 4" front to back, or is it 4" from the motor mounts to the front of the motor? I don't know where the EG motor mounts were.

[slopoke]

Just keep in mind that we are dealing with 1" for the EZ series.

We are dealing with 4" for the EG.

if the motor mounts are centrally located on the block you would only need half an inch of clearance, but not being a subie guy, I don't know if that's the case. Maybe someone who's a bit more familiar could chime in ...

[Mechie3]

Best I could find. Looks like the mounts are pushed back near the 2nd and 3rd banks of cylinders where the H4 is (IIRC) more on the 2nd.

http://www.ecutune.com/posts/eg33_assembly/DSC_3013.jpg

Can't find a good underside of an H4 motor.

[mug23]

Like I said earlier where i found the $400 EG33 motor, there's a guy near my area who happens to collect SVX's and sells part off Craig's List and he has 4-5 EG motors. I will to go visit him perhaps tomorrow to discuss a little bit more about that motor and see if he may know a little bit more in comparison to EZ motors. I will also try and take as much pictures of the EG motor and report back. I hope he also may have a EZ motor to see if I can take some pictures of that motor too to compare.

Stay tune...

[mug23]

Here's the bottom side of my EJ257 block:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8194/8149400623_54357684d2.jpg

[PhyrraM]

The motor mount locations did not change on the H6 in relation to the H4. This means that all the added length is to the front of the motor. The transmission, bellhousing, rear-of-motor, will all sit in the chassis just as they on the H4.

When you convert a normal Subaru to an H6 you pull the radiator, transfer the H4 clutch and flywheel to the H6, drop the H6 onto the existing mounts, and fab new radiator mounts to push the radiator forward. Simple as that.

The ONLY mechanical concern for an 818 was how much pully clearance to that crossbar. Because the engine now tilts down, there *might* be an issue for the belt driven accesories on top of the motor and the upper crossbar. (Pic#4 above)

[el_jefe]

Based on what I've seen in the pictures, I am SURE an EZ H6 will physically. Most likely without any structural modifications. It's only 3/4" longer, and there looks to be at least that much room between the H4 and the frame. I'm more worried about mating it with manual (from an electronics standpoint - it should mate physically with no issues). PhyrraM mentioned in a previous thread after market engine management is probably the best route. So what options exist? Anyone?

From what I have read, depending on the year with some EZ motors you can "spoof" the factory ECU to think that the auto transmission is still there.

[Benji]

From what I have read, depending on the year with some EZ motors you can "spoof" the factory ECU to think that the auto transmission is still there.

What knock on effect would that have though (if any)?

[Accro]

For those of you worried about the computer and the tranny, I know in some engine swaps that only came with autos (2gr-fe with a manual, for instance) you can just have the gear selector wired to stay in drive, and the computer is happy. I don't know if this will work for the H6, but just a thought

[mug23]

On the H6 with auto trans to manual trans conversion, I heard that you can wire it to make the computer think it's in neutral and that usually work too.

[Turboguy]

On the H6 with auto trans to manual trans conversion, I heard that you can wire it to make the computer think it's in neutral and that usually work too.

I'm not sure this will work properly.


I recall from a Subaru tech article I read that on the EZ series engines the computer limits engine RPM when in neutral or park as part of a protection system for their variable valve system. This might only be with a particular iteration of the EZ motor, however, as I believe they have used 2 different variable valve timing systems. One that just controlled just the intake valves (timing AND lift), and a later system that only controlled the timing but on both intake and exhaust cams.


Actually this point -plus the fact that the factory ECU controls oil pressure solenoids that run these systems- got me thinking about how complicated an aftermarket engine management installation could end up being.

[Mechie3]

I don't know all about Subaru's various variable systems, but here is what I do know:

AVCS (active valve control system): advance or retard timing
AVLS (Active Valve Lift System): change lift

EJ207 (JDM): 2.0 w AVCS intake only
06+ WRX ej255: 2.5 AVCS intake only
04-07 STI ej257: 2.5 AVCS intake only
08+ STI ej257: 2.5 AVCS intake AND exhaust
EZ30 (EZ30d?): 3.0 no AVCS no AVLS (single exhaust port per head)
EZ30R: 3.0, AVCS AND AVLS (three exhaust ports per head)


the original EZ30 might be easier to interface with as it has no AVCS or AVLS. AVCS can also always be deactivated by plugging the holes in the cams. Lots of writeups of how to do this when doing ej207 swaps without a JDM ecu.

[Mechie3]

Other random info I've found (mostly from forums, have not verified it myself)

As of 2-2011, the e3z0D ecu was believed to not have been cracked yet
A guy with a standalone ECU, intake, and exhaust was making 250hp on the EZ30 (about the limit before adding forced induction)
h6 didn't come with a manual from factory until 2004

Not much info about what ECU/EM was used. The H6 resource thread on NASIOC I posted a link to earlier might have some info though.

[Etos]

After talking with Dom about going with an EJ257NA, it's just not feasible for the power levels I want(300WHP). Essentially impossible.

Now I am looking into getting an EZ3X engine and a PPG 5 speed with custom taller gearing and ofcourse stronger gears to deal with more torque at the low end. Dunno if I'll get the EZ30R or EZ36. Probably do some work to the heads and balance/blueprint the shortblock so I can get it to rev higher.

As far as why not just go turbo- it's a much narrower power band that is more finiky to work with. In an AWD car it's ok since you can mash the gas pedal and the AWD can sort out everything, but in a super light RWD rear engine car- I can see the turbo making it very difficult to keep the car where you want it mid corner. For a purely street car a turbo engine is fine, but for a track car I can see the benefits to having a taller geared wide powerband engine.

[Benji]

Not much info about what ECU/EM was used. The H6 resource thread on NASIOC I posted a link to earlier might have some info though.

I would have thought that a MegaSquirt might be the way forwards but I'm not sure, after some Googling I came across this thread on Link's (a standalone EMS/ECU company) forum:

http://www.linkecu.com/forums/G4Forum/159563338

VERY interesting as it looks like they can run an EZ30D AND an EZ30R out of the crate...

I am sure there are more, this was just a quick Google but it all looks promising, you have to pay to play though, it's over $1600...

[controller]

RomRaider/OpenECU supports the EZ30D/R it looks like. There hasn't been definition files written for the US manual ECUs, however the AUS/JAPAN manual ECUs does have definition files. I can't say with certainty, but most likely you you could just flash those roms on the US ECU if they had the same part numbers. Or you could source a EZ30 from a Japanese importer with wiring harness and ECU, then use that as a base to start modifying.

[speedboy]

Here's an interesting setup using a Subaru 6. Nothing to do with the 818, but looks like fun!


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Last-6-Cylinder-Powered-Manxters-200-Miles-New-/121005304313?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item1c2c7a69f9

[StatGSR]

I have been meaning to weigh in on this thread since i saw the car at sema. I absolutely think that a EZ will fit with little to no modification, The crank of the EJ had more than 2 inches of clearance with the fire wall, the only are of concern i has was at the top of the engine because of the tilt forward to the engine, accessory pulleys and belts may be getting a bit snug.

Regarding the EG33. I don't think it will fit well. yes you could move the engine and the transmission back, but my concern was that at current the axles on the 818 already angled forward to go from the transmission to the hubs and i fear the axle angle may get to extreme if you keep pushing the transmission back. Time will have to tell what can be done with that on.

Below is the picture i took of the roller with the TT EJ20 in it.

[Turboguy]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13284&d=1352564844


Anyone have a picture of what may be under the cover on that twin turbo engine? Unless there is something non-movable there (like perhaps a pulley whose belt was left off the go-kart's engine) this picture makes it seem like it should fit in the 818 no problem!



This is the BEST PICTURE YET for those of us aching to use a flat-6. Thanks StatGSR !!!

[Outwest]

I absolutely think the EZ30 will fit with little to no modifications. The engine is really not a whole lot bigger than a EJ series motor. I am currently working on installing a Twin Turbo EZ30R into a 914 Porsche, so I'm sure I'll at least test fit my engine into my 818 when it gets delivered.

[Benji]

This is the BEST PICTURE YET for those of us aching to use a flat-6. Thanks StatGSR !!!

So... didn't see the pics on the previous page then ;)

[Turboguy]

I am currently working on installing a Twin Turbo EZ30R into a 914 Porsche, so I'm sure I'll at least test fit my engine into my 818 when it gets delivered.

Please keep us posted on your project!




So... didn't see the pics on the previous page then ;)

hehehe. oops.


Any chance you could mold your hand into those same positions again and measure it? Then we can put some numbers on those distances!

[el_jefe]

*shrugs* Fitting an ez motor won't be an issue. The main obstacle will be the ecu if you go for a manual transmission, and I'll be concerned about the motor hopping on the factory mounts and smacking the chassis. And as long as I'm mucking with the ecu, I might as well change the fuel maps for boost.

[Xusia]

.../David H., is it possible to move these off topic posts to a new, separate thread? Maybe call it something like "Understanding the merits of turbo engines and NA engines?".../

[David Hodgkins]

Xusia that's exactly what I did:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?8375-Understanding-the-merits-of-turbo-engines-and-NA-engines

I - and I believe everyone here - understands that sometimes someone posts something off topic in a thread. Let's agree that if it can be dealt with faily quickly (ie a response or 3 :)) that it's part of a discussion. The Turbo/non-Turbo diversion had 23 posts and there were another 13 or so posts that were chatter about the thread going OT. No biggie, the OP and others requested that it be move to it's own thread and it has been.

One more thing. If a thread is created for a very specific topic let's agree that we'll try to keep it on topic. But, if a more generic thread is created like my SEMA thread or Dave's feedback thread let's try to recognize the difference and let the thread flow more freely. I'm not going to start jumping in everytime a thread has 5 posts off topic. Let's agree to use some logic to decide what's what.

:)

[Xusia]

I saw that. Agreed on your logic - that makes sense to me.

Again, my apologies for the diversion.

[Turboguy]

Thanks, David -- much appreciated.

[Outwest]

Here is a thread of one of my projects that im installing a twin turbo ez30r into a 914 porche, figure you guys would get a kick out of it.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=85005&st=80

[skullandbones]

Outwest,

Love that exhaust header kit you built. Wouldn't that setup look good in an 818? BTW, do you mind saying what the budget was on the H6, tubos, headers, and all major components? Thanks, WEK.

[Turboguy]

COOL!!

Outwest- Thank you for providing the info and a link to your project blog! I've bookmarked it and will regularly visit. Please feel free to share your experiences with transmissions, and ESPECIALLY engine management as your project progresses with all of us here. Your Subie flat-6 transplant experiences will be very relevant for those of us looking to go down the same road with our 818's.


EXHAUST CONSIDERATIONS:

Does anybody know what type of exhaust design(s) Porsche has used on the 911's flat-6 over the years?
ie do they run an equal or unequal length header? x-pipe, h-pipe or no crossover at all, etc? Porsche's flat-6 has that 'edge' to the sound which is intoxicating, unmistakable, but also readily achieved with the Subie flat-6 transplants I've heard (and posted) sound clips for.


As well as looking SUPER sexy, the old fashioned "bundle of snakes" exhaust that you see on Pantera and GT40 engines always gave those engines a sound more like an engine with a flat-plane crank. I'm wondering what a design like this would do to the already nice sound of a flat 6? The GTM engine bay was a bit cramped, but the 818 appears to have plenty of room to play in. Especially given we won't need to find room for an inter-cooler on top of the engine.

http://www.racingicons.com/gt/1036-012.jpg

[el_jefe]

Sidewinder exhausts are designed to make the exhaust system scavenge correctly, which they can't with standard American crankshaft design. IIRC, most flat 6 motors have a firing order that allows exhaust to pull from the same bank, not from opposite sides.

Although I hesitate to mention it, as it doesn't directly relate to installing the engine into an 818.

[smitch]

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f325/Smitch260/DSCN0878.jpg
Here is a reference photo of a EG33 in my 2001 impreza RS. Please note that the radiator has been relocated under the hood release mount.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f325/Smitch260/87a64676.jpg
Here is another shot of a EJ205 in my 2000 OBS impreza. Note the difference.

No way is the EG33 going to fit with out modifications to the chassis. While the EG33 is fun in the impreza I'm left a little disappointed when comparing it to past turbo swaps. To get more power out of the older EG33 it will cost you quite a bit more money.

Sounds like most of you guys are going for the EG33 for cost savings. I have a feeling once everything is said and done you'll be close to the cost of a stock wrx. The stock wrx cost will have more potential as well.

My two cents, I know I'm going to change peoples minds.

[Turboguy]

Man, that's a tight fit with the EG33. You can really see the difference those extra inches make.


Sounds like most of you guys are going for the EG33 for cost savings. I have a feeling once everything is said and done you'll be close to the cost of a stock wrx. The stock wrx cost will have more potential as well.

My two cents, I know I'm going to change peoples minds.


I don't think most considering a flat-6 are doing it for cost savings -- that has nothing to do with it for me, at least. In fact, going this route will be more expensive than a flat-4 turbo, and possibly by quite a bit.


Personally I am considering it to get a high-powered, normally aspirated engine and the sound that only comes with a flat-6. I'm pretty sure most of the others considering this path have similar hot buttons.



It is looking like the most reasonable options will be the new EZ30 and EZ36 powerplants, as these are less than 1" longer than the WRX motor, but will present engine-management issues as they are currently only mated to (electronic) automatic transmissions in North American donors.

[Desertrunner]

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f325/Smitch260/DSCN0878.jpg
Here is a reference photo of a EG33 in my 2001 impreza RS. Please note that the radiator has been relocated under the hood release mount.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f325/Smitch260/87a64676.jpg
Here is another shot of a EJ205 in my 2000 OBS impreza. Note the difference.

No way is the EG33 going to fit with out modifications to the chassis. While the EG33 is fun in the impreza I'm left a little disappointed when comparing it to past turbo swaps. To get more power out of the older EG33 it will cost you quite a bit more money.

Sounds like most of you guys are going for the EG33 for cost savings. I have a feeling once everything is said and done you'll be close to the cost of a stock wrx. The stock wrx cost will have more potential as well.

My two cents, I know I'm going to change peoples minds.

What ECU & cams did you run with the EG33?
Tony

[Xusia]

Personally I am considering it to get a high-powered, normally aspirated engine and the sound that only comes with a flat-6.

Nailed it.


It is looking like the most reasonable options will be the new EZ30 and EZ36 powerplants, as these are less than 1" longer than the WRX motor, but will present engine-management issues as they are currently only mated to (electronic) automatic transmissions in North American donors.

Yep.

[timmy318]

Probably has already talked about on here but would an EZ36D fit? More to the point, what's the size difference between the three classes of H-6 engines (ER/EG/EZ) if there actually is any.....

[smitch]

What ECU & cams did you run with the EG33?
Tony

Stock ecu, with stock cams (http://www.rs25.com/forums/f145/t142434-smitchs-rs-h-6-swap-rallyx-car.html). I'm looking into the Ecutek chip that supposedly gets rid of the hesitation that comes along with the EG33, 3,500 rpms and adapting it to a manual transmission.



What kind of power are you guys looking to run with the flat 6?
Most people have a hard time getting any more than 300 out of them NA. Like I stated before they spend a lot dollars doing so.

Everyone is always talking about how the flat 6 sounds, I even got some complements on mine. Mine sounds like poop between 1 to 4 in the rpm range. Above 4 grand is where the motor comes on in song. Daily driving mine makes me sick.

Having done four swaps in four different cars all my own, I probably would never do another flat six swap. Something about it is disappointing. Maybe you guys will have better success.

If you do the swap to be unique I guess I can relate. If you're doing the swap because it sounds different... I'm a little lost. If you're doing the flat 6 because you think it will be faster than a wrx motor, I'd do a bit more research.

[MiniVanMan]

Probably has already talked about on here but would an EZ36D fit? More to the point, what's the size difference between the three classes of H-6 engines (ER/EG/EZ) if there actually is any.....

The EZ36D has the exact same dimensions of the EZ30D. The difference is in bore and stroke, and the utilization of offset connecting rods to accommodate the larger displacement, within the same footprint.

[flynntuna]

Since its going to cost more and more than likely frame mods, why not use a Porsche boxter engine and trans? The Porsche comes with a 6sp man. High $ for sure, 255hp -300+hp

[smitch]

Please ignore my below post... if it even gets posted. (All my post get approved by moderators, I'm guessing because I'm new to the forum. I put a link to another site of EG33 build).

If you guys have any other questions about the EG33 I'll try to help.

[rjh2pd]

Since its going to cost more and more than likely frame mods, why not use a Porsche boxter engine and trans? The Porsche comes with a 6sp man. High $ for sure, 255hp -300+hp

The mounting points wont be the same, the half shafts are probably in different locations, and the 6 speed might be too long (same reason sti trans wont work). the sti engines are proven for 300+ horsepower why make so much more work for such little gains? what would the gains be anyway?

[skullandbones]

It is looking like the most reasonable options will be the new EZ30 and EZ36 powerplants, as these are less than 1" longer than the WRX motor, but will present engine-management issues as they are currently only mated to (electronic) automatic transmissions in North American donors.


I apologize if this has been brought up before but this thread is so cut up I had trouble following it. Anyway, the EMS, engine, trans (auto) would basically present a plug and play system as far as the compatibility aspects. Also, I think the paddle shifter option making this somewhat like a straight shifting car would be pretty interesting. I've driven two paddle shifting cars: a Ferrari 360 and a 2011 Camero. It's not a bad way to go. It didn't take anything away from the driving experience for me. Without a clutch, you can use that left foot to balance yourself in the curves. Does anyone else have similar experience? Just wondering how well the H6 would perform with an auto hooked up to it. Thanks, WEK.

[flynntuna]

Very true, but there are some who are exploring the h6 route. Those problems include finding a way to make it fit,mating a 5sp to it, trying to get them to play nice ect.ect.ect. I don't know what the size of the Porsche drivetrain is, but if your going to modify the frame anyway might as well explore the options.

[el_jefe]

Porsche folks are swapping in Subaru motors. That says it all for me.

[Xusia]

Using the H6 with the auto is something I had not considered. Even with paddle shifters, I'm not sure it would actually drive like he true sports car I really want. Gonna have to think about that!

[Desertrunner]

Stock ecu, with stock cams (http://www.rs25.com/forums/f145/t142434-smitchs-rs-h-6-swap-rallyx-car.html). I'm looking into the Ecutek chip that supposedly gets rid of the hesitation that comes along with the EG33, 3,500 rpms and adapting it to a manual transmission.


A bit of background on the EG33 might help this discussion at this time.
As most know the EG33 was developed to power the Subaru SVX sports car, which at the time was to be a top end excetive car. In the process theyant the car to have all the bells and wistle you would expect when you pay the kind of money they cost.
What I was told a number of years back was that when Subaru developed the car the orignal engine was to develop 300hp. The catch was that when they cranked it up they kept blowing transmissions. The only manual unit aviable in the late 80s/early 90's was the 5 speed. As you would be aware people were distroying those with 4 cyclinders so 6 had no chance. Subaru decided to go to a Auto that had more chance of surviving longerut even then the engine was killing them.
The company wanted to get the car to market so they detuned the engine down to 230hp and sent it out. For those not aware a new SVX in 1992 would blows its transmission in the first 100,000kms and it wasn't untill 1995 that they had a auto that could last any reasonable length of time. It wasn't till the 6 speed that they had a manual that could stand the pain the engine put out.

If you want to make a EG33 fly the first thing is new cams,just get them reground, Bazza may tell you how. Then the engine can breath properly.
Next change the ecu and if possiable larger injector, go to the yellow 550cc ones you can pick them up cheap because they were standard some of the 4 cyclinder Subaru.
You need to mod the water pump intake other wise you will cook the engine.

I have played with NA Subaru's since 1974 and they love revs between 4-8k they fly under that they are dogs.

Hope this is not off topic.

Tony

[Turboguy]

Also, I think the paddle shifter option making this somewhat like a straight shifting car would be pretty interesting. I've driven two paddle shifting cars: a Ferrari 360 and a 2011 Camero.

Although somewhat off topic to this thread, the transmission issue is sure to come up with flat-6 installs -- namely because at present Subaru doesn't make their flat-6 motors available with manual transmissions and the factory ECU appears to require an auto transmission present to run. For some builders, aftermarket engine management just won't be in the cards.


I will say that the 2 paddle shift systems you referenced above are dramatically different. The Ferrari system is their F1-derrived "Cambiocorsa" technology, which is actually a computer controlled automated manual transmission. The computer operates the clutch, manual gearbox, and throttle modulation in this system. The Camaro is simply an automatic transmission with buttons. They are not even remotely close in operation, feel, abilities, or complexity.


Having said that, I have the Cambicorsa system in my Maserati, and after 3 summers driving it I will say it's awesome on the track, but a bit of a bear in city traffic.


Spend 1.5 hours in the parking lot that is highway 401 (Toronto) at rush hour a few times, and you arrive home muttering "just kill me now" as you go in quest of some Chivas.

[Nuul]

Spend 1.5 hours in the parking lot that is highway 401 (Toronto) at rush hour a few times, and you arrive home muttering "just kill me now" as you go in quest of some Chivas.

(Sorry for derailing this thread further everyone)

Aye, the 401 is brutal. I was in Toronto visiting family this weekend and I had to do some driving on it. Your city needs a subway or an EL Train or something; the roads are way over capacity and it's only going to get worse with all the people moving there.

[skullandbones]

I thought I was staying on track with the thread because it allows for a "plug and play" solution that might be attractive to a lot of people who want a spirited but managable daily driver with some off road capability. Some have just nixed the whole idea based on the manual transmission argument. If I was going to do the H6, it would definitely be that way to avoid any electronic issues(KISS).

As far as the paddle shifter goes, I was talking about driving experience. I enjoyed the Ferrari version but was a little tricky to time the shifting correctly to get the best and smoothest response (also, they may have had the shifting tuned down a little if that is possible). On the Camero, it doesn't feel like I'm driving a "slush box" even with normal shifting (I think that is what you are referring to by saying "just pressing buttons") . But with the paddles in play, it is more responsive and that makes it more fun for me. Anyway, that's really two things to think about but a two step solution that would work even if the shifting mechanism is a little expensive. IMO, WEK.

[Ironhydroxide]

Hey guys-


Rather than hi-jacking or derailing other threads, why don't we use this new thread to pose our questions, and share our knowledge regarding installing a flat-6 into FFR's new 818.





I'll start the ball rolling -- does anyone have dimensions for the EG33 engine that powered the SVX?



Also, is the new 3.6L H-6 based on the same block as Subaru's new 3.0L H6?


Dont know if anyone actually answered this question.>>>


Here are answers in picture form...

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx213/ironhydroxide2/RiggedPerformance/IMG_20121203_162517.jpg
EG33 complete w/o intake manifold

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx213/ironhydroxide2/RiggedPerformance/IMG_20121203_162543.jpg
EG33

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx213/ironhydroxide2/RiggedPerformance/IMG_20121203_162650.jpg
EJ20 ej25 etc, same crank length

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx213/ironhydroxide2/RiggedPerformance/IMG_20121203_162729.jpg
Close up EJ20

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx213/ironhydroxide2/RiggedPerformance/IMG_20121203_162800.jpg
ez30D (non variable valve)

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx213/ironhydroxide2/RiggedPerformance/IMG_20121203_162822.jpg
EZ30D (non variable valve) close up

[MiniVanMan]

I'm reading 1 1/16th of an inch difference between the EZ and EJ engines. That inch could make for a maintenance nightmare, but seems very feasible to wedge that thing into the 818. I now have a new thread I'm going to be glued to.

Doesn't matter much though. Nobody's really going to know until they get their hands on the 818 frame.

[Nuul]

I found a post (http://sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=20955)you guys might find interesting. It looks like someone has (somewhat) figured out how to get an EZ30D to work with a manual transmission. Way more effort than I'm willing to do, but for those of you interested:



I'm swapping a 2001 ez30d into my manual 1999 impreza 2.5rs, and am currently finishing up the wiring. This was my first engine swap and first wiring harness merge, so I'm not an expert or anything. I have a buttload of wiring diagrams if anyone needs one. I'm pretty confident about all the wiring I've done except for what's associated with the TCU, cruise control, and AC system.

Here's the EZ30D TCU diagram (without traction control) (https://sites.google.com/site/inabsentia/_/rsrc/1297627680753/home/TCU.png)
I'm trying to wire the transmission control unit such that it thinks it's doing its job and doesn't tell the ECU to spit out a CEL. I'm wiring the TCU such that when the transmission is in neutral and the clutch is not in, the TCU thinks the car is in "D". I'm also planning on emulating the ATF temp sensor with a resistor. I'm a bit stuck as far as wiring the 2 vehicle speed sensors and turbine speed sensor (I guess the later is for the torque converter?). I was thinking of tying all three of the speed sensors to my MT's single VSS and hoping for the best.

I'm ignoring all of the "AT control" connections (the solenoid ones), the dropping resistor, all of the "Combination Meter" connections, and all of the "Inhibitor Switch" connections except for "D" and "N".

Here's the EZ30D cruise control diagram (https://sites.google.com/site/inabsentia/_/rsrc/1297627709299/home/cruise%20control.png)
For the cruise control unit, I'm wiring it pretty much as in the EZ30D's wiring diagram as if it was a manual transmission and ignoring the TCU completely. I'm not sure if this is going to work

Here's the 2.5RS AC sytem diagram (https://sites.google.com/site/inabsentia/_/rsrc/1297627709299/home/cruise%20control.png)
Here's the EZ30D AC system diagram (https://sites.google.com/site/inabsentia/_/rsrc/1297628483255/home/EZ30d%20AC%20system.png)
I'm unsure of what I'm going to do regarding the air conditioning. The EZ30D AC control system is significantly more complicated than the 2.5rs's, and the EZ30D uses an AC control module (which I don't have). The 2.5rs's AC system requires an ECU connection to the "evaporation thermoswitch" and "pressure switch", which in the EZ30D are connected to the AC control module instead. I think I'm going to have to somehow use an Arduino in place of the 2.5rs ECU.

Another difference is that the EZ30D also has 2 main & subfan relays while the 2.5rs has one of each. I think I've got that wired correctly though.

[Xusia]

GREAT find! I'm with you, though: Too much effort for me. And too many chances for things to go wrong.

[MiniVanMan]

GREAT find! I'm with you, though: Too much effort for me. And too many chances for things to go wrong.

The only thing I've learned so far is that I'm NOT the guy to try this first. Way outside of my wheelhouse of ability.

However, I haven't ruled out that somebody out there will find a working/winning combination and process for making this happen.

I'm waiting for some preliminary results, and then go from there.

The waiting game sure is starting to suck.

[Ironhydroxide]

if it's a Non VDC Ecu it shouldn't be that much of an issue.... VDC i think would have a ton of problems with a manual

[Xusia]

Vdc?

[Nuul]

Vdc?

Vehicle Dynamics Control. Subaru's weird name for electronic stability control.

[Turboguy]

After doing some reading on it myself, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that engine management will be relegated to an aftermarket system like the Link G4. I'm curious how easily they interface with with Race-technology dashes, as I'm definitely going to integrate one of those in my 818R:

http://www.motokinetic.com.au/content_files/news/1319783575RTDash2.jpg

I know they're listed as compatible, but I think I need to track down some people running the setup to see how well they actually interface.

[thefoos]

I'll offer my 2 cents since I've owned every engine variant Subaru has put out there between 1996-2004, and I've tuned over 200 turbo Subarus at this point....

I love the EZ motor. There are too many guys staring too long at dyno sheets. Taking a car like the 818 and putting a EZ in it will be awesome. More linear and tractable power band. Smooth. Man is the 6 cylinder smooth. I think the H6 is a perfect choice for someone that wants to stay south of 250whp and have a beautiful flat 6 sound to go with it.

If you want to build a monster, the EZ is a poor choice. Stick with the EJ25. Easy to make 400+whp, which would be crazy stupid on a platform like this...Nay sayers: You do realize this is most likely a 10 second car with a true, non-inflated 400whp, right? Most aren't going to want that much power. A standard weight WRX with 300whp is a mid 12's car in the right hands. 250whp in one of these 818's is going to be a riot.

I understand the "single" donor concerns some may have. But to restate what someone else pointed out, some of us have been in the Subaru community for a long time, and have garages and store rooms full of parts. I personally don't care about the single donor thing. I could almost build a 818 out of my store room...Mixing and matching is fine by me. I imagine I won't be the first to the plate, but I see a EZ30 818 in my future. I might do something really dumb like turbocharging it...

[Turboguy]

Have you by chance seen any EZ30 setups running standalone engine management? Curious what your thoughts are on the options available.

It will probably be an easier install than trying to adapt the OE system. I would like to run traction control and will be using either a Racepak or Race-technology dash, like the one pictured above. I'm thinknig I'll also install the Impreza's ABS but I imagine it has it's own standalone box to run that sub-system.

[Newman]

Have you by chance seen any EZ30 setups running standalone engine management?

Both of these companies are doing H6 installations.www.smallcar.com, www.outfrontmotorsports.com

[Buzz Skyline]

The fastest guy at our rallycross events has an H6 in a 1996 Impreza wagon that was built for a 1.8 liter flat four. Next time I see him, Ill ask how he managed to fit it in. If he can do it, I'm sure we can.

[Wayne Presley]

If the H6 is only 1.5" longer than the EJ205, there is just enough room for the motor although the the water hoses will be interesting...

[StatGSR]

The fastest guy at our rallycross events has an H6 in a 1996 Impreza wagon that was built for a 1.8 liter flat four. Next time I see him, Ill ask how he managed to fit it in. If he can do it, I'm sure we can.

The ez h6 fits easily into any ej Subaru, the eg33 it the one where it gets tricky and requires moving the radiator in front of or under the radiator support. The problem is that with the 818, you run into the frame behind the seats, not a radiator, that's where the issue really is. I still think the ez will be doable with minimal additional effort.

[Xusia]

I still think the ez will be doable with minimal additional effort.

<face palm> But I already BOUGHT my donor!...

[SkiRideDrive]

I can't stop listening to this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdhSlF5oK94

[Xusia]

THAT is the sound I will soon DESPERATELY wish my 818 had... <sigh>

[Wayne Presley]

Does the EZ36 the external dimensions as the EZ30?

[Turboguy]

It does, but it also has those funky offset connecting rods which, I recall, makes it not the best candidate for performance duty.

[Wayne Presley]

It does, but it also has those funky offset connecting rods which, I recall, makes it not the best candidate for performance duty.
But it makes 256 HP stock so a open exhaust and free flowing intake should get you past 270 flywheel HP...

[Turboguy]

Aren't the 3.0's rated at 245HP? Not a huge difference - although their torque numbers are quite a bit different: 247lb-ft vs 215. I think I recall reading there was quite a redline difference between the 2 motors though, with the 3.0 having even more potential still.

[Frank818]

Well, that guy http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?9816-My-WRX-Donor-car-with-EZ30R-6-cylinder-%29 managed 540wtq with it. But as you can see under 3000 it's not much different than the 2.5, if my memory of a 2.5 dyno chart serves me well...

[Flamshackle]

Well, that guy http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?9816-My-WRX-Donor-car-with-EZ30R-6-cylinder-%29 managed 540wtq with it. But as you can see under 3000 it's not much different than the 2.5, if my memory of a 2.5 dyno chart serves me well...

If FFR are a smart company (and they are) they will release a chassis that can support the H6. It's just to exciting an option for a decent costumer base. I personally would rather a turbo 4 but I know so many that would prefer a NA 6 any day of the week.

[StatGSR]

^ im pretty sure they already did? still to early for anybody to confirm if one can just drop one in yet and go, but i suspect that will get flushed out over the news half year or so.

[PhyrraM]

If your in the camp that is replacing the OEM engine controls anyways, I don't see any reason at this point that an EZ series motor would not work.

OEM H6 engine control still need to have the 1)no-AWD and 2)no-automatic things sorted out.

[slopoke]

could an H6 work with a CVT? I'm assuming there would have to be some modifications to the frame to accept the CVT...

[Canadian818]

Does the EJ tranny fit any of the H6's?

[PhyrraM]

Does the EJ tranny fit any of the H6's?

Bolt up. Use the flywheel and clutch set to match the transmission.

[bromikl]

Let's say I use a 6-cyllinder 2004 automatic Outback wagon as my donor. How difficult is the engine management conversion for use with a manual transmission?

[bromikl]

I don't think it is worth trying to fit the H6 into this car. Way overkill. If you want torque, stroke the 2.5, if you want horsepower, get a larger turbo. Everyone knows how to tune the H4, you could probably get one online for the 818. There would be absolutely no reason to go through the trouble of fitting the H6 into the 818. Just because it could probably be done, doesn't make it a smart thing to do.

Seems to me, disassembling an engine, stroking it, rebuilding it, and tuning it to work properly would be more difficult than moving a piece of steel out of the way. But that's just me.

[Turboguy]

Let's say I use a 6-cyllinder 2004 automatic Outback wagon as my donor. How difficult is the engine management conversion for use with a manual transmission?


It sounds like there may be work arounds, but they're pretty involved. An aftermarket ECU like the "link" might be a good replacement. Several standalone makers support full use of the AVCS system, and have base maps available for the EZ30.

[TalMageJ]

Other than the transmission, could one of the cars that use the ez36d(the legacy, tribeca, or outback) be used as a complete donor?

[Hobby Racer]

Nope. the spindles, axles, steering rack and many other bits would not work.