SEMA Questions about the 818.

[wallace18]

I thought a new thread with questions we have about pictures from SEMA would be good. I would like to know what company and kit did FFR get to replace the stock airbag steering wheel on the S. I think it looks great. Also what are the outside dimensions of the car? Thanks for any info people can give from SEMA. Wish I was there.

[wallace18]

Some good photos from SEMA on what's new at the FFR website.

[Turboguy]

Actually, I'm curious what would be involved in transplanting and making the Subaru air bags functional in the 818.

[Benji]

I would highly recommend you didn't. Ever. Really bad idea.

[skullandbones]

I asked this on another thread but just to make sure: will there be a wind shield wiper cowl to hide wipers or was it decided for the beginning to expose them? Just curious about that decision process occurred. Thank you, WEK.

[timmy318]

I asked this on another thread but just to make sure: will there be a wind shield wiper cowl to hide wipers or was it decided for the beginning to expose them? Just curious about that decision process occurred. Thank you, WEK.

I think that that's one of the little things FFR didn't worry about in prep for SEMA. Dave and Jim both stated that the body is pretty much finished except for some minor things. Don't know what those minor things are but they certainly could include it.

[BryceJ]

What size tires are on the 818S? Both front and rear sizes please.

[skullandbones]

But Dave did say that what may appear to be a minor change in a panel would actually be a pretty big deal. I don't think we know for sure what has been "finished" moldwise or if certain panels can or will have further development and changes. From what Dave has said, the resources are tight in the company (buyout, etc) and extensive further development for the first release would be doubtful. I hope this is !one of those things he doesn't really like. We won't know for some time. Good luck Dave and crew! WEK.

[PhyrraM]

I would hazard a guess that any changes at this point will be to the frame, and very small details (such as brackets or raising the column to better fit the dash). I'm pretty sure that all major fiberglass panels are set in stone as of this time because of the cost of the molds.

However, the eventual switch to a different method of making some of the panels (thermoform?) will provide an opportunity for revisions. This could even happen before release on some of the panels.

[wallace18]

It has been nice to see so many pictures. Is any videos out from SEMA? Also I hope some of our questions would be answered soon. I know I am being impatient but can't help it.

[BipDBo]

12849 12850 12851
I have a question that's been bugging me for some time. Sorry that I've asked it a few times before, but I haven't yet heard an answer. After the air passes into the front intakes and through the radiator, where does it go from there? If you look at the front of the car, there are two intakes that serve the radiator, the main rectangular one, and a thin intake below, just above the lip. I assume that the two small opening on either side of the main intake duct to the front brakes, and that the slots on the corners just open to the wheel wells.

Compare the area of the two main intakes to the area of the two outlet vents on the hood, and the hood vents look extremely insufficient. Most cars, with the engine in the front, pass the air around the engine and down under the car. On the 818, where does the air exit, other than up through the hood vents? Does it also exit through the gaps between the front fenders and the doors?

The outlet area should at least match, if not exceed the inlet area. I'm not seeing that on the 818. As an example, look at the hood louvers on the Venom GT:
12852

Can someone pop the hood and see if they see how the air flows? By the way, some photos with the front and rear hoods open would be nice, if possible.

[Slatt]

I've been curious about the same issue with the size of the hood vents. Of course we want to believe that the bottom of the front area will be sealed...

The only things I can add are that 1) I'm no expert in fluid dynamics, and 2) those vents we see are farther up the hood than we see in most cars, I think that's a low pressure area there and just maybe it will be OK (bernoulli effect, etc).

[shinn497]

You guys answered your own question. The air should escape through the top. Having mismatched opening and exit areas would certainly change the pressure and cause the air to escape out the bottom, but I don't think it will be that much of a problem. In addition there are side vents.

[shinn497]

Actually, I'm curious what would be involved in transplanting and making the Subaru air bags functional in the 818.

I agree with benji. Airbags are designed for a specific weight and model of car. To transplant them would put you at a very dangerous risk of premature activation. This is why it is recommended that you don't install them.

[VD2021]

I asked this on another thread but just to make sure: will there be a wind shield wiper cowl to hide wipers or was it decided for the beginning to expose them? Just curious about that decision process occurred. Thank you, WEK.

If they go with a single motor mech (saythe same as the one included with the GTM) and the mounting position is under the aft edge of the hood, you will likely be able to have it rest under the hood. However the sweep may not cover the leftmost portion of your windsheild view.

[RM1SepEx]

I agree with benji. Airbags are designed for a specific weight and model of car. To transplant them would put you at a very dangerous risk of premature activation. This is why it is recommended that you don't install them.

IMHO this isn't the issue, they use "G" sensors to determine when to activate. They will activate when the car sees the impact required. they are designed to provide delayed impact, lengthening the time that force is distributed, decreasing the "impulse energy" due to the hit.

The safety issue is that they are not designed in the right form factor for use in a dramatically different area and location. The steering wheel airbag is most likely the least affected by transplant into an 818. It slows down a body moving forward and being stopped suppenly as the seat belts stretch and stop forward movement. We can expect it to be about the same distance from our body in driving position.

The other bags have no hope of fitting the volume of the passenger compartment. If they don't rapidly fill the space properly or "over fill" the space INCREASED risk of incury could be expected. Without the extensive testing done by MFG, we will never know.

We do know this... if you build a stiff pasenger compartment, design in areas that can crush during a crash, increasing the time of impact, decreasing the impulse of the hit, passenger injuries will be reduced. That is the theory behind new car designs for passenger safety. The chassis gives itself up to protect the passengers, held in place by a combination of loose seat belts (don't want to wrinkle that dress...) and a multitude of air bags so you can't hit the hard surfaces of the interior.

It is however imperative to hold the participant in position so that they don't get displaced by the impact into one of the crushed areas. That is why race cars, cars that see far greated impacts, don't use airbags for safety, they use stiff passenger "cells", crush zones, and racing harnesses.

IMHO a racing harness of at least 4 point design, should be used with any of the F5 car designs.

[VD2021]

12849 12850 12851
I have a question that's been bugging me for some time. Sorry that I've asked it a few times before, but I haven't yet heard an answer. After the air passes into the front intakes and through the radiator, where does it go from there? If you look at the front of the car, there are two intakes that serve the radiator, the main rectangular one, and a thin intake below, just above the lip. I assume that the two small opening on either side of the main intake duct to the front brakes, and that the slots on the corners just open to the wheel wells.

Compare the area of the two main intakes to the area of the two outlet vents on the hood, and the hood vents look extremely insufficient. Most cars, with the engine in the front, pass the air around the engine and down under the car. On the 818, where does the air exit, other than up through the hood vents? Does it also exit through the gaps between the front fenders and the doors?

The outlet area should at least match, if not exceed the inlet area. I'm not seeing that on the 818. As an example, look at the hood louvers on the Venom GT:
12852

Can someone pop the hood and see if they see how the air flows? By the way, some photos with the front and rear hoods open would be nice, if possible.

This is easy...relatively speaking. There are areas where the years of GTM builds can directly be applied because of some of the similarities of both platforms.

The openings (pictured) are only an example and primarily for show here. The area looks very similar to the Gen1's cutout are. You can continue and make the openings cover the entire area if you choose. Scrap the mech (It cuts the opening's flow area down) and go with actual louvers.

The side air intakes should forgo the mesh also.

Shane (VRaptorSpeedworks) is extremely talented at creating solutions for FFR kits. I believe his best works are the louvers he creates to open up airflow. I sure he'll be creating some solutions for the 818. My build will have Shane's Louvers.

[Mechie3]

IMHO a racing harness of at least 4 point design, should be used with any of the F5 car designs.

There is only 1 4pt harness I can recommend: Scroths ASM harness. It has a loop sewn into the inboard shoulder to prevent submarining. Other 4 pts don't have this (can't, it's patented) and when the upper body moves forward, the lap belt raises up and he passengers hips slip under causing spinal compression. I was in a lower speed accident with Scroth ASM 4 pts and they functioned as advertised. Otherwise, a 5 or 6 pt is needed to prevent the lap belt from rising up.


Scrap the mech (It cuts the opening's flow area down) and go with actual louvers.

The hole punched plate they use looks nice, but has too much mesh to volume ratio IMO. I'd rather use something like what I used on my racecar and what the CTS-V has. It's a woven wire mesh (not the expanded metal gutter guard honda tuners are fans of) that has a classy look to it and a much lower mesh to open air ratio.

[carbon fiber]

the vents are a problem on the gtm, and one of the things i'm addressing while designing a new front end for the gtm. the vents are not only too small, but there is no form of "ducting" the air to the vents to eliminate lift and promote downforce. if you look at the pics of the pdg-gtm race car, they have the gen 1 openings and there is no "ramp" or duct directing air out at back. part of that air has to be catching under the hood and creating lift. there is an aluminum bulkhead with a rubber seal at the back of the hood, so no air could get out that way. i'm making an interior shape that directs air to the openings and to connect the gap at the front radiator opening/aluminum radiator tray. there has been alot of discussion about this gap creating lift, as the air has alternate escape paths besides going into the radiator. my design is radically different from the gtm or 818, but the principles are the same. provide a clean interior channel or "ductwork" to feed from the radiator opening all the way to the exit openings. this should greatly improve downforce.

[VD2021]

The hole punched plate they use looks nice, but has too much mesh to volume ratio IMO. I'd rather use something like what I used on my racecar and what the CTS-V has. It's a woven wire mesh (not the expanded metal gutter guard honda tuners are fans of) that has a classy look to it and a much lower mesh to open air ratio.

Yeah, there are some other great alternatives. The key is getting rid of the mesh in picture. It is very restrictive.

[BrandonDrums]

12849 12850 12851
I have a question that's been bugging me for some time. Sorry that I've asked it a few times before, but I haven't yet heard an answer. After the air passes into the front intakes and through the radiator, where does it go from there? If you look at the front of the car, there are two intakes that serve the radiator, the main rectangular one, and a thin intake below, just above the lip. I assume that the two small opening on either side of the main intake duct to the front brakes, and that the slots on the corners just open to the wheel wells.

Compare the area of the two main intakes to the area of the two outlet vents on the hood, and the hood vents look extremely insufficient. Most cars, with the engine in the front, pass the air around the engine and down under the car. On the 818, where does the air exit, other than up through the hood vents? Does it also exit through the gaps between the front fenders and the doors?

The outlet area should at least match, if not exceed the inlet area. I'm not seeing that on the 818. As an example, look at the hood louvers on the Venom GT:
12852

Can someone pop the hood and see if they see how the air flows? By the way, some photos with the front and rear hoods open would be nice, if possible.

I think there will be duct work but here's a shot of the under hood area for the radiator. The opening may be bigger than the outlet but remember the radiator itself ultimately determines how much open area there is for air to flow through. I think the outlets in the hood are plenty large to let all the air coming through the radiator out.

Even if it isn't, it's still better than on a wrx where there is no exit-air goes through the radiator and has to find it's way out through the engine bay. At high speed, a stock wrx will blow air out of the hood scoop.

http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af89/BrandondrumsWRX/2012-11-02_0934.png

What I really want to know is how the intercooler duct work is routed. Judging from the shots, it appears that they have air routed backwards through the intercooler and up out of the top of the engine cover.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12826&d=1351657465

[carbon fiber]

i haven't seen any ductwork in the sides of the opening in the body and the radiator tray on the 818, and there's none on the gtm either. another issue is the transaxle sticking out the back. is there going to be framework around it? i wouldn't want to get rear ended and have a subie flat 4 in my a**.

[BipDBo]

the vents are a problem on the gtm, and one of the things i'm addressing while designing a new front end for the gtm. the vents are not only too small, but there is no form of "ducting" the air to the vents to eliminate lift and promote downforce. if you look at the pics of the pdg-gtm race car, they have the gen 1 openings and there is no "ramp" or duct directing air out at back. part of that air has to be catching under the hood and creating lift. there is an aluminum bulkhead with a rubber seal at the back of the hood, so no air could get out that way. i'm making an interior shape that directs air to the openings and to connect the gap at the front radiator opening/aluminum radiator tray. there has been alot of discussion about this gap creating lift, as the air has alternate escape paths besides going into the radiator. my design is radically different from the gtm or 818, but the principles are the same. provide a clean interior channel or "ductwork" to feed from the radiator opening all the way to the exit openings. this should greatly improve downforce.

If they are a problem with the GTM, then they will surely be a problem with the 818, at least as currently designed. One issue with louvers is that, like perforated grills, the useful "free area" is much less than the total area. If the outlet louvers are to match or exceed the inlet opening in area, as they should, then the louvers must be as least twice as large as the inlet. I think that the 818 should just have a simple, large opening like the 65 coupe.
13065

[Niburu]

i is there going to be framework around it? i wouldn't want to get rear ended and have a subie flat 4 in my a**.

if you get rearended hard enough to push the engine through the space frame you're probably already dead from the impact of the semi or train hitting you

[carbon fiber]

the less absorbtion of the impact, the more transferred to the driver. the frame would become the crush zone and would help tremendously. imho. may be the diffence between a totaled car or not, and a life full of backpain or not. what about protecting the drivetrain in a lesser accident?

[BipDBo]

I think there will be duct work but here's a shot of the under hood area for the radiator. The opening may be bigger than the outlet but remember the radiator itself ultimately determines how much open area there is for air to flow through. I think the outlets in the hood are plenty large to let all the air coming through the radiator out.

Even if it isn't, it's still better than on a wrx where there is no exit-air goes through the radiator and has to find it's way out through the engine bay. At high speed, a stock wrx will blow air out of the hood scoop.

On a WRX, just like any front engine car, the air goes around then engine and down under the car. The outlet size, being the gaps around the engine are much larger than the inlet. Unfortunatley, we dont have any good pictures of the 818 with the hood open, behind the radiator. I don't think that the air goes down. I hope that no air goes down. The radiator is sloped and the bottom edge is pretty far back. Other than going up through those small openings, the air can only go back through those narrow slots between the fender and the door or sidways, out through the front wheel wells.

I'm hoping that someone can take a decent picture of the area behind the radiator.

[carbon fiber]

let's also keep in mind with the vents, if your not going to high speeds then it's probably not as big of a deal. that won't be the case for me.

[BipDBo]

if you get rearended hard enough to push the engine through the space frame you're probably already dead from the impact of the semi or train hitting you

Also, since there is very little of the weight of the 818 in front of the driver, in the event of a rear collision, there will not be nearly as much force pushing the engine into the driver. That's true, at least until you get pushed into a car in front of you.

In a front collision, however, that momentum heavy engine behind the driver is a liability. Fortunately, the crash cage looks pretty robust on the 818S and much more so on the 818R. I was concerned about the safety cage a lot, but FFR looks to have done a great job. It looks safer than most convertibles I've seen. The triangular structure on the sides, under the doors and between the seats, through, should do a lot to transmit force from the front of the car to the rear without crushing the center passenger area.

[Mechie3]

Check out this Daytona Ferrari F430 build on NASA Forums. There's a cool section about building a removable rear crash structure. If FFR doesn't address this, it may be good for the DIY or a third party company.

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=32283&sid=23cfdcfd1f137b0b44f793ebd7c103a8

http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn341/jlpierce76/DSC02029.jpg

[Turboguy]

http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn341/jlpierce76/DSC02029.jpg


Adding this to my mod list if FFR doesn't engineer it in from the factory.

[VD2021]

The mesh physically has and covers more surface area than Shane's louver. These louvers have such a minumum relative surface area that the airflow restriction, in this situation, is very close to ~zero.

[BipDBo]

The mesh physically has and covers more surface area than Shane's louver. These louvers have such a minumum relative surface area that the airflow restriction, in this situation, is very close to ~zero.

Louvers do have little resistance, but the airflow does not go through the louvers at a perpinducular angle to the surface of the hood. Air does come through the intake, however, perpincular, to the intake. Air travels through the louver at the angle of the louver blades. Therefore, to get the free area of the louver (assuming that the louver blade thickness is negligable), you need to multiply the total area of the louver by the sine of the angle between the hood surface ond the louver blades. The free area of the louver blades should match or preferably exceed the intake area.

[carbon fiber]

13068the rear framework is important for several reasons. we talked about getting hit from behind, but what about when someone 180's one into a tree. lightweight, high hp/weight ratio, rear engine. there are crush zones in the front, why not in the back? that 430 brace grew even more before it was over.

[Mechie3]

An interesting thought:

We haven't seen the 818R rear end fully exposed, have we (unless it was visible in that frame pic). I doubt they can add the rear brace without adding a lot of cost and eating profits. However, they could add several tabs with bolt holes allowing them to sell (and end users to easily install) a rear subframe as an option.

[VD2021]

The entire louver blade is not on the same plain as a flat mesh would be. We are not dealing with velocities in the range where the angle of the louver blade will have a significant restriction to airflow relative to the open area created by the louvers. It wouldn't be useful to calculate the "flat" surface area of the louvers because the answer would close on ~99% surface area.

[carbon fiber]

13069mechie3, great idea. that way there's no messing with frame fab & messing up the powdercoat.(should come standard, imo) as far as the louvers, they don't hinder airflow. at high speeds there is a need for a lip at the front of the vent to direct surface air up to create a path for the exiting radiator air.

[Mechie3]

Another question: How tall is the top of the door? Wondering just how easy it will be to step over.

[shinn497]

I am about 5'10" and the door came up to my knee. It will be very easy to stop over. Honestly, they don't need door handles. We should just able to jump into them, like a mustache'd british spy.

[Mechie3]

Spy hat ( and mustache) included in the kit price or additional options? I like the classier look of the S interior, but if its that easy to step in, it makes the R more feasible as a DD.

[flynntuna]

I wonder if the windshield will be stronger than the MK4, being that it can be very expensive to use the windshield as a hand hold to get out of the car.

[PhyrraM]

Any framework designed to protect the tranny will not be effective in reducing the forces to the driver.

or, if your prefer the glass half-full:

A framework designed to absorb the G forces will still allow your tranny to get whacked.

[timmy318]

Any framework designed to protect the tranny will not be effective in reducing the forces to the driver.

or, if your prefer the glass half-full:

A framework designed to absorb the G forces will still allow your tranny to get whacked.

Haha, thanks for givenin us the best of both worlds :p

[Mechie3]

Specs on the wheels? Looking for diameter and offset. Local Subaru guy paid $2400 for forge star wheels tires and tpms. Selling it all for $1200 since he sold the car. I'm hoping he separates the tires and tpms and I can snag the wheels only at a steal.

[carbon fiber]

i guess the "crush zones" designed in the front are useless also? wonder why they call them crush zones? maybe you could enlighten us to the physics involved as to why an impact absorbing stucture can't absorb impact. yes, it could be built too soft or too stiff. if designed properly it would do both.

[Xusia]

i guess the "crush zones" designed in the front are useless also? wonder why they call them crush zones? maybe you could enlighten us to the physics involved as to why an impact absorbing stucture can't absorb impact. yes, it could be built too soft or too stiff. if designed properly it would do both.

If you are referring to PhyrraM's statement, I understood it as follows:


Any framework designed to protect the tranny will not be effective in reducing the forces to the driver.

Means if it's strong enough to actually protect the transmission, it won't "crush" (crumple, or whatever) and therefore won't reduce any impact force hitting the vehicle that may reach the driver. Crumple zones absorb impact energy, but if they aren't crumpling, they are transmitting, not absorbing.


A framework designed to absorb the G forces will still allow your tranny to get whacked.

Meaning, if the framework does "crush" it will absorb (and therefore reduce) impact energy, but won't protect the transmission (because it's crushing).

[carbon fiber]

i got that, and i also said that if designed properly it would do both. (not 100 percent of both)there is a happy medium or goldilocks zone if you will, when engineering something that has to perform multiple tasks. i don't see a glass as half full or empty, if it's a 24 oz. glass, that comes out to 12 ozs.:cool:

[carbon fiber]

keep in mind also these structures are not mounted to the transaxle and have a space between them. theoretically if designed properly there would be a range of impact speed where the framework could be crushed, absorb impact, and still not hit the transaxle. 5 mph there may be no crushing at all, 50 mph it could crush(absorb impact) and not hit the transaxle, 105 mph it could crush (absorb impact to a lesser degree because of the higher forces) and make contact with the transaxle. the point is there is a range of speeds where it could do both. modern engineering programs can test these forces in a computer simulation before you even build it. allowing you to find the proper design, tubing diameters, and wall thickness of the tubing to make it work very well in a certain range of speed. for instance if you get hit from behind by a train nothing will help, but a minivan at 50 mph? i'll take the framework please.

[AZPete]

Just curious . . . Where is the gas tank?
Any added rear framework could incorporate fittings for a trailer hitch, eh?

[carbon fiber]

the rear framework does depend on if there is room between the transaxle and the body to work. has anyone seen the amount of space? could be really tight from the pics i've seen with the body off.

[carbon fiber]

looking at the 818r through the mesh at the bottom, the back of the transaxle seems close to the bodywork. 6"?

[flynntuna]

Yes, maybe even less this is why their saying the 6sp won't work.

[NonProfit]

Where is the gas tank?
In the passenger compartment, behind the seats.

And folks...Tolerances are tight enough it bring into question engine/transaxle combinations which are mere inches longer. If your crumple zone has an engine block inside if it, regardless of how the frame is designed, you don't have a crumple zone.

[carbon fiber]

agreed.

[Samiam1017]

Carbon fiber. If you get rear ended by a train abetter GPS is was you need not a crumple zone.

[carbon fiber]

lol! you're right. (was reffering to PhyrraM s comment at the top of the page)

[carbon fiber]

i'm still wondering why it's not built like the gtm at the back.?

[bromikl]

I will proceed as if the car has no crumple zones. Not that it won't have any; but I'm assuming that what there is would not satisfy the NHTSA. And that's fine with me. I will build an 818 knowing that it will never be as safe as a production vehicle, but much safer than a motorcycle. Millions of people take larger risks every day, than driving an 818 on the street.

If your personal safety in a crash is high on your 'needs' list, you should buy a BMW or a Porsche or a Nissan. Something with airbags. Don't try to make a road-legal race car something that it isn't.

[Benji]

That is probably the most sensible mind set when approaching something like the 818. I drive a 99 Miata in Texas, what with all the trucks around I figure I'm pretty much dead if anything hits me.

Drive it as you would ride a motorbike and you should be okay, if you've never ridden a motorbike then I personally recommend going to take some lessons. Once out on the road you begin to realise that one key point: you ARE the crumple zone.

[flynntuna]

Defensive driving will be a understatement, there'll be rubberneckers with cellphones all the time not watching where their going. I'll always be looking for an escape route when these clowns swerve to avoid the accident they are about to cause.

[carbon fiber]

defensive driving won't help a bit when you're sitting at a stoplight with a car in front of you and someone hits you from behind. i had this happen to me in a '85 mustang. i saw it in the coming in the rearview and had nowhere to go. lucky i was far enough behind the car in front of me not to hit him. i got hit by a '66 mustang. i drove away with minor damage and they put the totaled '66 on a rollback. fiberglass bumper under the bodywork with shocks vs. steel bumper mounted directly to the frame. you hear people say they don't make 'em like they used to. that's right they make 'em better! take a look at the prototype gtm with the silver frame, it is similar to the 818 now with the framework ending at the back of the transaxle. it was then redesigned with replaceable crash protection behind the transaxle. i was just wondering if that was going to be the case with the 818. not to continue this debate any further, but imho, it does matter.

[VD2021]

there'll be rubberneckers with cellphones all the time not watching where their going.

I would be too concurned about that with the 818.

[Oppenheimer]

I recently bought an S2000. It amazes me how people don't see the car. Several times I had drivers in the next lane try to change lanes into me. At most every stop light, the car behind will pull within inches of my bumper. Doesn't matter if its a truck, SUV or sedan, man, woman, etc.

Clearly in the stoplight scenario they 'see' the car, but somehow their subconcious (the part of the brain 90% of drivers use to drive) reacts in such a way that they feel like they are leaving the normal stopping distance. The lowness, and smallness of the car tricks their brains that are used to seeing the hulking masses that are everywhere. I think they equate size with distance, thinking if its that small it must just be something larger, that is farther away.

So in the lane change thing, I think they 'see' the car, but it just seems farther away, so they think its safe to change lanes.

An 818, especially a Roadster, will take up about the same space, so will likely have the same issues.

I never had this much trouble on my bike, which of course is even smaller. But when an inattentive driver does see a bike it registers as a bike, and its basically the same basic bike/rider size that it always is, so their size = distance meter gets it close to right. Of course, the issue with bikes is when they don't see you at all. I think its when the thing is regsitered in their brains as a thing they see all the time, only a much different size, it skews their ability to judge its distance.

[Xusia]

I would totally agree. I had 2 MGBs and saw the same kinds of behavior, and like you, it was much worse than on my motorcycle.

[AZPete]

Oppemheimer, you gave a perceptive analysis of why some drivers encroach on small cars. I had the same problems in my FFR roadster and didn't equate it to size/distance perception. People pulled out in front of me, changed lanes in my nose and followed closely so I just drove as motorcyclists advise: "remember you are invisible."
Thanks.
Pete

[flynntuna]

Did anyone who saw the 818s in person notice if there was an engine in it? I was lookng at the studio photos and it looks like the tailpipes aren't connected to a muffler. Just curious, but I could be wrong

[RM1SepEx]

Did anyone who saw the 818s in person notice if there was an engine in it? I was lookng at the studio photos and it looks like the tailpipes aren't connected to a muffler. Just curious, but I could be wrong

They drove it off the truck into the shop after the photo session... Erik and I were there, no hole in the floor to Flynstone it! Sounded very nice...

[FFinisher]

Did anyone who saw the 818s in person notice if there was an engine in it? I was lookng at the studio photos and it looks like the tailpipes aren't connected to a muffler. Just curious, but I could be wrong



Yep I drove it onto the truck at(after) SEMA.