So what is it about this Subaru motor that is so appealing?

[bstuke]

Is it the length of time it has been made?

Maybe the wealth of aftermarket parts that are available?

Is it bulletproof to 750HP?

Transmission is rock solid?

What? I am asking because I have always been a Ford guy since my 1967 Cougar, and yes I know the positives and negatives of Ford.

What are the positives and negatives of this flat for motor and transmission?

[RonSchofield]

One important factor is that it can be mounted lower in the vehicle giving a lower center of gravity.

[GUNS]

What Ron said, plus it allows for a single donor vehicle, decent power can be made relatively easily (no need for 750hp in a 1800lb car), huge aftermarket, relatively inexpensive parts, etc.

[NonProfit]

I think it's all about the transaxle.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Darn near bulletproof, good power with lots of aftermarket support for those who want more, the flat 4 configuration naturally makes tons of torque and as a bonus---unlike an inline 4 they actually sound good!

Jeff

[PhyrraM]

Probably the easiest modern motor to work on (when installed in a Subaru).
Accessories are all on top and can be got at straight away.
Timing belt can be changed without removing all the accessories.
Lightweight and very compact, especially longitudinally.
Traditional north-south mounting.

[Jon A]

I don't know anything about Subarus but the low center of gravity is impressive. If you look at the picture of the go-cart FFR is loading onto the truck heading to SEMA it looks like the vast majority of the motor sits below the top of the rear tires. This thing should handle like my old Tamaya R/C cars!! I think it could be an Elise/Exige killer for half the price (of a used Lotus).

-Jon A.

[rjh2pd]

I'm a Subaru guy... Some problems would be ringlands and head gaskets. Also since they have 2 heads instead of one (vs other 4's) so higher labor charges or takes longer if you do it yourself, and harder to get to the heads vs an inline or v. Still great motors

[bstuke]

I think it's all about the transaxle.

Not sure what you mean. One of the things I notice is how small the axle actually is. And how long it is! I wonder what kind of power the axle and connections can handle before twisting occurs from running 10 inch wide Hoosier A6's or R6's.

[bstuke]

I'm a Subaru guy... Some problems would be ringlands and head gaskets. Also since they have 2 heads instead of one (vs other 4's) so higher labor charges or takes longer if you do it yourself, and harder to get to the heads vs an inline or v. Still great motors

I did notice some of the companies you can send your heads to for performance work are specific about a mod for a certain head gasket. What is that all about?

[wallace18]

It is a widely used engine through out the world. The ability to use the stock transaxle is a huge cost benifit. 750HP can be obtained but not reliably. The 300 to 400hp mark is a good area for reliable power. This car is not about huge HP but power to weight and good handleing. They are very differant from a Ford. They are very well built IMO. I have work on all makes of German as well as most Japanise stuff. The Subaru impresses me a lot. Tons of aftermarket stuff to cutomize your own unit. From mild to wild. Your pocket book is the only limit in Subaru as well as any other car (Ford). I think what is so neat about the 818 is you could build one around 15K and then later mod it as time and money permits.

[bstuke]

I think it could be an Elise/Exige killer for half the price (of a used Lotus).

-Jon A.Certainly a hope I have after getting killed in XP by a Lotus that the owner up the HP by around 100. What a rocket.

[bstuke]

It is a widely used engine through out the world. The ability to use the stock transaxle is a huge cost benifit. &%)HP can be obtained but not reliably. The 300 to 400hp mark is a good area for reliable power. This car is not about huge HP but power to weight and good handleing. They are very differant from a Ford. They are very well built IMO. I have work on all makes of German as well as most Japanise stuff. The Subaru impresses me a lot. Tons of aftermarket stuff to cutomize your own unit. From mild to wild. Your pocket book is the only limit in Subaru as well as any other car (Ford). I think what is so neat about the 818 is you could build one around 15K and then later mod it as time and money permits.

It seems you can easily hit 300HP with very few mods, and basically none on the engine. My goal would be 350HP but a wide powerband.

[Mechie3]

Aftermarket: Quite large (NASIOC is one of the largest forums in the world, lots of knowledge)
Transmission: It is very easily converted to run the front axles only, so easy to do a mid engine RWD. Without this, you can't do the single donor
Reliable: As long as you tune it correctly and check your oil they make good power reliably.
Power: Turbo'd motors make power easily
Availability: Many donors to choose from available worldwide.

[bstuke]

Darn near bulletproof, good power with lots of aftermarket support for those who want more, the flat 4 configuration naturally makes tons of torque and as a bonus---unlike an inline 4 they actually sound good!

JeffSure about that Jeff?:rolleyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCwp80ifibA

[ram_g]

Good thread! I think there are several of us "traditional" FFR customers who know nothing about Subarus and are wondering what this new phenomenon is all about and where this new direction is taking FFR. Good to have some "learnings transfer", so to speak...

[bstuke]

Good thread! I think there are several of us "traditional" FFR customers who know nothing about Subarus and are wondering what this new phenomenon is all about and where this new direction is taking FFR. Good to have some "learnings transfer", so to speak...

Exactly my point.. I did build and race motorcycles as well, so familiar with inline fours. This motor seems somewhat intimidating to me, and have heard that from other pushrod buddies. Most likely also why I didn't go 4.6 on my build. Crank triggers, OHV, more advanced ignition...

I have had a few offline conversations with a few of the Subie gearheads and there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum already.

[NonProfit]

Not sure what you mean.

I agree with the folks here who have already stated about reliable power. And this is a platform used the world over. All I was saying that the transaxle is a natural for a mid-engine conversion and I believe it was huge in FFR's decision making process.


I wonder what kind of power the axle and connections can handle before twisting occurs from running 10 inch wide Hoosier A6's or R6's.

Certainly not everyone here will agree with me on this one, but I think this type of project is best suited to remain a moderate-powered, light and nimble roadster. I'm looking for mine to act like a Lotus, not a Charger Daytona.

[bstuke]

I am certainly not a math major but a well balanced 818 with 300RWHP has to be something of a dream.

What is the HP loss on the Subie drivetrain?

[Mechie3]

People usually estimate around 22%, but that's for a full awd setup. We're dropping a center diff, a drive shaft, two axles, and a rear diff from the loss equation.

[shinn497]

No one has mentioned this but the flat four configuration is the most balanced out of any. That is to say it doesn't cause any harmonic vibrations which need to be dampened out with a counter balance or anything....No idea what this does performance wise, but it makes the engine simpler.

[rjh2pd]

I did notice some of the companies you can send your heads to for performance work are specific about a mod for a certain head gasket. What is that all about?

I haven't had to do any head gallery work yet so I'm not completely sure. I know the non turbos had/may still have A single layer head gasket and the aftermarket made multilayer head gasket to help the issue. I think the turbos already came with a multilayer, but I'm not positive.

[Xusia]

On the subject of sound, I'll concede most inline 4s don't have a nice sound, but they CAN sound good when tuned well and use the proper exhaust. In fact, I'll be trying to get my 818 to sound like my current inline 4: A ZX-10R. It sounds like a pissed off Ferrari! I love it!!

[NonProfit]

I'll be trying to get my 818 to sound like my current inline 4: A ZX-10R. It sounds like a pissed off Ferrari! I love it!!

Please post a vid when you get it sounding right.

[Evan78]

The typical Subaru exhaust sound is due to the unequal length runners of the exhaust manifold. If you switch to an aftermarket equal length manifold, you get rid of the Subaru rumble. Some like it, some don't. I like the unique sound, but I don't like inefficiency.

[RM1SepEx]

Back to the original question, Factory 5 spelled it out somewhere, or even better talk to Dave Smith sometime!

All aluminum engine and transaxle
"stock" NA & turbo application
low CG
easy mid engine transaxle conversion (not that common)
Above allows single donor
worldwide market
AMAZING aftermarket (rally driven)

mid engine transaxles are a HUGE cost driver

[bstuke]

Back to the original question, Factory 5 spelled it out somewhere, or even better talk to Dave Smith sometime!

All aluminum engine and transaxle
"stock" NA & turbo application
low CG
easy mid engine transaxle conversion (not that common)
Above allows single donor
worldwide market
AMAZING aftermarket (rally driven)

mid engine transaxles are a HUGE cost driver

Dave is an awesome spokesman, I was simply looking for drill down on all of these wonderful reasons.

[Desertrunner]

Subaru build the toughest engine and gearboxs in the world. My daily drive is a Subaru SVX (sports car) 3.3l the car currently has 680,000ks on it, the first engine lasted to 460,000k and was still running the day I took it out (It still did 210kph). I have driven the car all over outback Australia and it alway gets home. The attached photo is taken in the Simpson desert in Australia were on the last holiday trip the car did 11,000ks of which 9,000 was dirt. We are currently building a 3.3l engine to rev to 10,000rpm as well.
Would never drive any other brand car. I could tell you a million stories about the things I have done to a Subaru and they just get up and ask for more.
Factory Five made a brillant choice using it as the bases for the next car, it really is a stroke of genius.

[Racebrewer]

And, after all that, teenagers over here still manage to destroy them.

When I was hospitalized with a blown appendix, I had a teenie roommate who borrowed a buddy's Subie and rolled it down a mountainside. He walked away with only huge bruises. Sigh. Darwin was thwarted again.........

John

[longislandwrx]

And, after all that, teenagers over here still manage to destroy them.

When I was hospitalized with a blown appendix, I had a teenie roommate who borrowed a buddy's Subie and rolled it down a mountainside. He walked away with only huge bruises. Sigh. Darwin was thwarted again.........

John

even the best drivers make mistakes. i'm glad your roomie was ok and hopefully can learn from that.

[bstuke]

I have a feeling there is going to be a lot of flood damaged WRX's available in the NE soon..

Hang on up there!

[bstuke]

I setup build pages over the weekend.

Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/FactoryFiveRacing818?bookmark_t=page

Non-Facebook:
factoryfive818.wordpress.com

The wordpress page will automatically update the Facebook page as well.

[Gary in NJ]

Is it the length of time it has been made?

Maybe the wealth of aftermarket parts that are available?

Is it bulletproof to 750HP?

None of that stuff. Chicks dig it. That's all you need to know. :cool:

[bstuke]

None of that stuff. Chicks dig it. That's all you need to know. :cool:

Thanks Gary, you obvious got hit in the head today with flying debris..:rolleyes:

Chicks dig the MKII Roadster I have as well..

[Evan78]

Pages look good. You might get some confused questions on Facebook since the page looks like it could be the official FFR 818 page as opposed to "Bob's 818 build".

[Kalstar]

I believe this all started by trying to adapt the Sube trans to use in the GTM. The Porsche units were getting to scares and to expensive and Mendeola was not even thought of yet. When the F5R started playing around with how easy the Impreza trans could be adapted to use mid-engine other ideas might have been hatched. The weak link of the GTM, for sure, is the transaxle. In the 818 that has been solved.

I just would like to point out. The Lotus Elise pound per HP is 10.05, a NA 818 will be 8.95, WRX donor is 6.60. Even in it's most inexpensive form, 0-60 times should be squarely in the mid 4s. (the Elise is 4.7sec)

[bbjones121]

SVX? How many trannys did you go through though or let me ask how big your aftermarket tranny cooler is? At least we won't have to worry about an automatic on the 818. First, an auto won't fit and second it is only 1800lbs so it won't overheat like the SVX did. I loved my SVX. It is the only 6 cylinder with the metal block to back up high boost pressure. It was essentially an EJ with two extra cylinders, not the thinner H6's Subaru makes now-a days.



Subaru build the toughest engine and gearboxs in the world. My daily drive is a Subaru SVX (sports car) 3.3l the car currently has 680,000ks on it, the first engine lasted to 460,000k and was still running the day I took it out (It still did 210kph). I have driven the car all over outback Australia and it alway gets home. The attached photo is taken in the Simpson desert in Australia were on the last holiday trip the car did 11,000ks of which 9,000 was dirt. We are currently building a 3.3l engine to rev to 10,000rpm as well.
Would never drive any other brand car. I could tell you a million stories about the things I have done to a Subaru and they just get up and ask for more.
Factory Five made a brillant choice using it as the bases for the next car, it really is a stroke of genius.

[bbjones121]

For anyone interested or worried about half shaft strength. Here are pictures of my stock CV half shaft (green end) and a New Cardone CV half-shaft I purchased for very reasonable on Amazon. The thing is huge, weighs more, the shaft is larger, the boots are bigger, and even the caps are larger diameter, like they put bigger components in it.

[tommyburger]

I don't know if it is still true but I remember reading a few years back Subaru had the second best hp to liter rating. It was something like Porsche was number one with 115hp per liter and Subaru was 114hp per liter. Both have boxer engines, so i guess there is something to be said about the boxers.

[bstuke]

For anyone interested or worried about half shaft strength. Here are pictures of my stock CV half shaft (green end) and a New Cardone CV half-shaft I purchased for very reasonable on Amazon. The thing is huge, weighs more, the shaft is larger, the boots are bigger, and even the caps are larger diameter, like they put bigger components in it.

Excellent feedback.. You should post part numbers and such.

[Desertrunner]

SVX? How many trannys did you go through though or let me ask how big your aftermarket tranny cooler is? At least we won't have to worry about an automatic on the 818. First, an auto won't fit and second it is only 1800lbs so it won't overheat like the SVX did. I loved my SVX. It is the only 6 cylinder with the metal block to back up high boost pressure. It was essentially an EJ with two extra cylinders, not the thinner H6's Subaru makes now-a days.

I changed to a manual 5 speed transmission at 300,000k and at 400,000 went to a 6 speed with a DCCD unit so when I climb sanddunes I can lock the centre diff.

Bad luck we cant fit the Subaru EG33 6 cyclinder in the the 818 with a bit of boast we would get 450hp at the wheels.
Tony

[wallace18]

For anyone interested or worried about half shaft strength. Here are pictures of my stock CV half shaft (green end) and a New Cardone CV half-shaft I purchased for very reasonable on Amazon. The thing is huge, weighs more, the shaft is larger, the boots are bigger, and even the caps are larger diameter, like they put bigger components in it. The kit is coming with custom axle shafts. Read previous thread possible donor problem.

[bbjones121]

Hopefully they come beefy like the Cardones.

[Desertrunner]

I see in the donar list that the CV joints must be kept,
does that mean that there are new axles for the existing CV joint?
http://www.factoryfive.com/kits/project-818/what-you-need/

[bbjones121]

Then like I said, go on Amazon and get the new cv half shafts by Cardone. Much beefier than stock.


I see in the donar list that the CV joints must be kept,
does that mean that there are new axles for the existing CV joint?
http://www.factoryfive.com/kits/project-818/what-you-need/

[Thorne]

I'm a Subaru guy... Some problems would be ringlands and head gaskets. Also since they have 2 heads instead of one (vs other 4's) so higher labor charges or takes longer if you do it yourself, and harder to get to the heads vs an inline or v. Still great motors

WIth a proper tune the ringlands are not a issue and I've yet to ever see a blown headgasket subaru that was not due to extreme amounts of Detonation. EJ205s have been known to hold power with proper tunes in the high 300whp's.

[Thorne]

It seems you can easily hit 300HP with very few mods, and basically none on the engine. My goal would be 350HP but a wide powerband.

a e85 sti turbo cars make 330ishwhp an 18g on a 2.0 is laggy imho. Here's a dyno of my WRX on vf39+e85 2.0 and 18g + e85 on 2.2e, If you want a big powerband and 350ish hp I would suggest doing a hybrid 205/257 motor. But make sure to modify the heads.
http://www.40roll.com/ips/ej2218gVSvf39.jpg

I have made 360awhp/427awtq on a stage 2 STi with E85.
http://www.40roll.com/ips/thorne03e85and93.jpg
thats e85 vs 93 same exact mods

[bobzdar]

I agree with the folks here who have already stated about reliable power. And this is a platform used the world over. All I was saying that the transaxle is a natural for a mid-engine conversion and I believe it was huge in FFR's decision making process.



Certainly not everyone here will agree with me on this one, but I think this type of project is best suited to remain a moderate-powered, light and nimble roadster. I'm looking for mine to act like a Lotus, not a Charger Daytona.

Uh, A6's and R6's are road racing tires, not drag tires. Wondering whether the transaxle will hold up with sticky road race tires on a road race type car is a very valid concern...

[bbjones121]

http://www.bremarauto.com/products/subaru-2wd-conversion-kit/

There is no reason to worry on a chassis this light.

[Mechie3]

Uh, A6's and R6's are road racing tires, not drag tires. Wondering whether the transaxle will hold up with sticky road race tires on a road race type car is a very valid concern...

A6's are actually autocross tires. ;) (but sticky nonetheless)

[terse]

not familiar with subie motors at all. what would be the best donor if i was trying to hit 400whp streetable?

[Mechie3]

not familiar with subie motors at all. what would be the best donor if i was trying to hit 400whp streetable?

Assuming you are sticking with the FFR supported Turbo 4, the 06/07 WRX is best. 02-05 has the 2.0L motor, 06/07 has the 2.5L. The 06/07 also have the benefit of nicer brakes (4 pots vs sliders). The 06 also has the aluminum front control arms.

That said, 400whp in a street driven 818 is quite a bit. It puts it on par with an Aventador in terms of power/weight IIRC.

[Xusia]

Also, and I don't know the truth here but want to make you aware so you can do research, there have been some questions raised about the long term reliability of the 5mt transmission when handling more than 300hp.

[Mechie3]

A lot of it, IMO, is driving style. My 06 lasted 60k miles with 312hp/450tq. My 02 has 300 some hp (not sure of torque) and has 186k miles on the trans. I don't clutch dump.

[terse]

Thanks for answering!

[bstuke]

Thanks for answering!

Terse, your question is the essence of this thread. Mechie3 and Xusia make some very valid points. I myself am looking for an 06 WRX for the reasons listed. I also feel, based on others opinions, that around 300RWHP is a sweet spot. 450tq, especially down low, would make for an awesome autocross car. Plus the all independent suspension and adjusability with common components is highly desirable.

[bstuke]

A lot of it, IMO, is driving style. My 06 lasted 60k miles with 312hp/450tq. My 02 has 300 some hp (not sure of torque) and has 186k miles on the trans. I don't clutch dump.

Can you talk about how and what you did to get to 312HP/450tq? I am assuming the is at the wheels?

[Mechie3]

Can you talk about how and what you did to get to 312HP/450tq? I am assuming the is at the wheels?

No, at the crank. It dyno'd 243/351 (back calculated chp using 22% efficiency for AWD).

Most important: ECU tune. Done by a local guy (the last time) for $100. First time was at a shop on a dyno for $300. The local guys do it on the road which is sketchy since you run through the rpm band in third gear. I don't like doing that.

Non stock downpipe, midpipe, catback
Intake
silicone turbo inlet
Big TMIC
pnp throttle body
TGV deletes
PnP exhaust manifolds
Grimmspeed Cross pipe
Grimmspeed uppipe
Walbro 255 fuel pump

That's most of it. I had fuel rails (not needed, did it to learn how to setup AN fittings, etc). Boost was set to peak at 21psi. It was also the 2.5L motor.

[rjh2pd]

IIRC the the 05 and newer got an update to the transmission to make them more durable. I don't think the trans will be a problem in this car thought because its not 4 wheel drive anymore... so you wont be able to get total traction off the line at wot. I think the wheels will slip before first gear goes out.

[Darkpiggy's dad]

Don't forget that we're talking about a transaxle for a 3200 lb car driving a 1800 lb car. Where is the comparison? I imagine at 350 hp it might last till the earth melts in the sun.

[Flashburn]

Don't forget that we're talking about a transaxle for a 3200 lb car driving a 1800 lb car. Where is the comparison? I imagine at 350 hp it might last till the earth melts in the sun.


There is no reason to worry on a chassis this light.

I don't understand why people keep saying this. Can you explain this in terms a physicist would understand?

[tmpst]

not familiar with subie motors at all. what would be the best donor if i was trying to hit 400whp streetable?

The best donor engine would be the 2.5 USDM STI from 2008 or later (very minor change prior to 2008, 2003-2007 are 95% as good). That said, you can't use the STI transmission in the 818, so you'd have to get a separate WRX transmission.

Best transmission would be late model WRX transmissions, they got stronger as the year's went on. 2002-2003 are ****. For a 400hp daily driver, anything after 2003 will be fine. For a track car, I'd look for something more recent, at least 2007+ I wouldn't track a 400hp Subaru with any WRX transmission, but obviously the 818 is going to be easier on the transmission than a 3300lbs awd car, I just don't know how much easier...

If you want to get everything from the same donor, I'd get one of the late model 2.5l WRX engines. They'll come with the stronger gearbox, and while the engines aren't as strong as the STI, they're close. To reach 400whp, you're going to need to make a fair amount of mods to the engine though... You're looking at a bigger turbo and sti heads minimum. Any experienced tuner will also recommend forged internals.

I'm also a little curious about the ability to cool a 400hp engine in the 818. To safely reach those kinds of numbers you need a bigger intercooler, in the Impreza, people always go to front mounts. How big of an intercooler will fit in the 818 and how good is the airflow into the 818's engine bay? Will heatsoak be too much of a problem? FFR designed the car for 265 horsepower or less, they might not have designed it with enough airflow for 400hp.

As was pointed out in the "Big Power" thread, 400whp in a 818kg car is *ALOT*. It's going to be a hard car to drive. You'll be dealing with a lot of boost, so a ton of Torque is going to suddenly appear at 4000 RPM, and the car is going to want to go *** first everytime you hit the gas in a corner.

-t

[Mechie3]

The best donor engine would be the 2.5 USDM STI from 2008 or later (very minor change prior to 2008, 2003-2007 are 95% as good).


If you want to get everything from the same donor, I'd get one of the late model 2.5l WRX engines. ... while the engines aren't as strong as the STI, they're close. You're looking at a bigger turbo and sti heads minimum



2008 STI added dual AVCS. There was no STI until 2004.

2.5 WRX engines are just as strong (physically, component wise) as STI engines. They don't make as much power because they have a smaller turbo. The shortblocks are identical minus the dome of the piston. The 2.5L WRX heads are actually a newer design (D25 casting) and better than the STI heads (B25 casting). The D25's are hemispherical with better flow, the STI heads are more of a triangle shape. 2.5 WRX motors have a slightly higher compression. Change the pistons in a 2.5WRX or STI block and they're not identical shortblocks.

Piston comparison info:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1667168

Head Info:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=630797

Cross section cuts of S20 (2.0), D25 (2.5 WRX) and B25 (2.5STI) heads
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1856856

[BrandonDrums]

I'm a Subaru guy... Some problems would be ringlands and head gaskets. Also since they have 2 heads instead of one (vs other 4's) so higher labor charges or takes longer if you do it yourself, and harder to get to the heads vs an inline or v. Still great motors

And rod bearings - high boosting turbo = hot oil. Tight OEM rod-bearing clearance specs mean low oil clearance (.0015'' to be exact on average) Use good oil or get race bearings.


For anyone interested or worried about half shaft strength. Here are pictures of my stock CV half shaft (green end) and a New Cardone CV half-shaft I purchased for very reasonable on Amazon. The thing is huge, weighs more, the shaft is larger, the boots are bigger, and even the caps are larger diameter, like they put bigger components in it.

As another member posted, the 818's axle shafts will be hybrid of the front and the rears-the front outputs will be connected to the rear hubs. Also, you have NOOOOO need to worry about the halfshaft strength. Those never fail, it's always gears, clutches, pistons, rod bearings or turbos. Time attack cars still run stock axle shafts, they are more than adequate to run insane amounts of power.

What makes subarus so appealing is that they are tried and true well balanced, inexpensive but extremely capable. In NA form they are 'bulletproof" b/c of optimal balancing, geometry and great quality control. In turbo form they are extremely potent, especcially for the weight and size of the engine. Even where they fail from being modded (Ring lands, rod bearings etc.) because they are so popular and so simple you can swap blocks or rebuild relatively easily and inexpensively.

Also being a company that seems to support the mod community, they have essentially made all of their cars sharing many major components for nearly 20 years. There are slight variances but in terms of a donor car pool, even though the 818 was designed and built around a GD chassis (02-07) Impreza wrx plaform, you actually could get an impreza from the 90's and most of the donor components will fit on the 818 along with the Forester and many of the Legacy models.

Even further, because of the re-flashable OEM ecu units and the wonderful mod support for these cars, there are free open-source tuning software solutions for Subarus that only require a $100 cable (or if you're savvy you can take a USB OBDII cable for 9 bucks on ebay and mod it) and gain full access to change every engine control parameter. So for folks looking to swap turbos and upgrade fuel etc. etc., a laptop and a cable nets you a full real-time tuning platform. For the 65' roadster guys, most of them have to invest in expensive stand-alone engine management systems to do the same thing.

A savvy individual can buy the 818 kit, a wrecked 02-07 wrx and upgrade the turbo, injectors and fuel pump for less than 15k and have a 1800lb 300+ wheel hp monster with a lower COG than just about anything in production today.

You can't do that with any other FFR car, you can't do that anywhere period ever. This 818 concept and this subaru donor philosophy is going to revolutionize club sporting.

[Mechie3]

Axles can and do break. Typically its higher HP cars at a drag strip with stickier tires. Plenty of YouTube videos of this happening.

[Darkpiggy's dad]

I honestly broke the right side axle in my MG midget while cornering. It was 1974 and the midget was a 62 black with wire wheels and 1100 cc's. Fun to drive, as I recall, it spun frequently.

[bstuke]

I'm also a little curious about the ability to cool a 400hp engine in the 818. To safely reach those kinds of numbers you need a bigger intercooler, in the Impreza, people always go to front mounts. How big of an intercooler will fit in the 818 and how good is the airflow into the 818's engine bay? Will heat soak be too much of a problem? FFR designed the car for 265 horsepower or less, they might not have designed it with enough airflow for 400hp.This is something I am curious about as well. It seems the stock system alone would hold more fluid as the radiator is mounted in the front and the engine is in the back. And like the intercooler, the radiator is stock, and could be replaced with a better aftermarket unit. This was somewhat the challenge with the Roadster as well. When I replaced the stock radiator with the FFR spec unit, a better electric fan, and an adjustable thermostat, my cooling challenges disappeared.

It is amazing to me that the aftermarket companies claim a 15Hp gain with their intercooler. Is that believable?

[bromikl]

I don't understand why people keep saying this. Can you explain this in terms a physicist would understand?

Flashburn, There's the theoretical answer which, as you suspect, the weight of the vehicle shouldn't matter. This is because in the theoretical answer, people generally assume the drive tires never spin.

In the real world, it's going to be very, very hard to put 400 Hp to the ground. The static friction of the wheels to the road is rarely enough to transmit that much power. Unless the car has Formula-1 like down force, and it's moving at a significant speed, AND it's running extremely sticky tires, the tires will break free long before the transmission gears fail.

You could have a 2000 Hp horsepower engine, but if you can't get the drive wheels to hook up, you'll never break your transmission.

(I'm intentionally omitting the possibility of a knucklehead dropping the clutch and f-ing up his shifts, which will break any transmission, regardless of how much power the car has, or the transmission is designed for.)

[rjh2pd]

Flashburn, There's the theoretical answer which, as you suspect, the weight of the vehicle shouldn't matter. This is because in the theoretical answer, people generally assume the drive tires never spin.

In the real world, it's going to be very, very hard to put 400 Hp to the ground. The static friction of the wheels to the road is rarely enough to transmit that much power. Unless the car has Formula-1 like down force, and it's moving at a significant speed, AND it's running extremely sticky tires, the tires will break free long before the transmission gears fail.

You could have a 2000 Hp horsepower engine, but if you can't get the drive wheels to hook up, you'll never break your transmission.

(I'm intentionally omitting the possibility of a knucklehead dropping the clutch and f-ing up his shifts, which will break any transmission, regardless of how much power the car has, or the transmission is designed for.)

Exactly, but even with F1 down force i dont know if you would be able to break it easily. what really breaks them are the jerking, and that comes from off the line acceleration mostly, and you don't make any down force while you aren't moving.

[apexslider]

Also, and I don't know the truth here but want to make you aware so you can do research, there have been some questions raised about the long term reliability of the 5mt transmission when handling more than 300hp.

early 5speeds were nicknamed the glass box, but that's mainly from kids modding then beating the piss out of their cars doing 4wheel burnouts and donuts. The 818 is much lighter and 2wd so some of the 'slip to grip' is gone. Wih that said, I still question the early stock 5sp longevity for track use.

I still think there are a few other issues the turbo ej2xx motors run into when being tracked or modded. Oil pick up tubes are a known weak spot, prone to cracking causing starvation. Pistons, ringland failure. PCV, failure causing excessive blow by (assisting in ringland failure). These are all easy fixes though and tons of after market options. The good thing, once you get a solid ej motor and set up they can last a very long time. Keep'em oiled and clean and you can beat the snot out of them. But the real reason, you can't beat the sound for the price

[bbjones121]

I think it would be good to think of the alternative transmissions we could be getting in the 818 and stop worrying about one of the strongest options out there?



early 5speeds were nicknamed the glass box, but that's mainly from kids modding then beating the piss out of their cars doing 4wheel burnouts and donuts. The 818 is much lighter and 2wd so some of the 'slip to grip' is gone. Wih that said, I still question the early stock 5sp longevity for track use.

I still think there are a few other issues the turbo ej2xx motors run into when being tracked or modded. Oil pick up tubes are a known weak spot, prone to cracking causing starvation. Pistons, ringland failure. PCV, failure causing excessive blow by (assisting in ringland failure). These are all easy fixes though and tons of after market options. The good thing, once you get a solid ej motor and set up they can last a very long time. Keep'em oiled and clean and you can beat the snot out of them. But the real reason, you can't beat the sound for the price

[apexslider]

I think it would be good to think of the alternative transmissions we could be getting in the 818 and stop worrying about one of the strongest options out there?

I was not aware that was the strongest option. I've owned a couple, I would want something else, like the 6sp. But I agree with not worrying about, there are plenty of later 5speeds that are solid tranny's.