Motor choice, 5.0 or 4.6?

[Gyvven]

Finally got approval to buy a kit... after I sell my other projects. so, I'm starting to plan my build. I plan on using a donor, my question is which motor will best meet my requirements the 5.0 or the 4.6?

I'd like to start with 300hp but be able to bump up to 350-400 later on easily and cheaply.
I'd like to run carbs just to eliminate wires but I think I'll start efi.
Will the stock tranny hold up to the power I want or should I look at getting a better one?
Which donor vehicle would be best? I've heard good things about using a Marquis donor.


I'm not afraid to rebuild a motor and we have several good machine shops around here, I just don't want to dish out the many thousands of dollars for a crate motor... yet.

The car will see a few track days, but mostly it'll be a weekend cruiser.

Thanks,
Gyv

[edwardb]

By 5.0 assume you mean the traditional pushrod Windsor V8. Compared to the newer design overhead cam 4.6 mod motor. Certainly the 5.0 is the more traditional motor for this car, is mechanically simple, easy to work on, tons of aftermarket parts out there for relatively reasonable prices, and is a nice easy fit into the engine compartment. The 4.6 is a much tighter fit, and is quite a bit more complex mechanically to work on. But they run great and give good gas mileage. I'm sure it's been done, but don't recall seeing a mod motor with carbs. But those with way more knowledge and experience than me can line up to add more.

[Gyvven]

Edwardb,

Yes, the 5.0 or 302 Windsor. I know there's tons of support for the 5.0 (if I just get off my but and find it). I haven't touched a 302 for over 25 years when I had a '69 Mustang. Loved the sound of that car. I'm leaning towards this motor, but I want to make sure I'm not passing up something better in the 4.6 despite it's size and complexity.

Any ideas on the most cost effective way to get the 5.0 to 300hp, and then to 350-400? I suppose it's mostly a matter of getting decent heads and such, but its the "such" I'm having trouble identifying.

There is a carb conversion for the 4.6 but I haven't done the research yet to see if there are any trade-offs, like loss of low end torque.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Which donor vehicle would be best? I've heard good things about using a Marquis donor.





Whoever/wherever you heard "good things" from isn't well informed. Virtually nothing is compatible from a donor perspective.

Jeff

[ClemsonS197]

If you want to modify "cheaply and easily," a modular motor isn't what you want.

Sounds like there is really no choice. 302.

[CraigS]

The other choice is a 351. I don't know the list of donors but there are quite a few.This gets you a much stronger block from the start and of course more cubes. Since the headers and intake dist. are different from a 302 it's good to start off this way.As reference my 400hp/351 is just a stock rebuilt shortblock w/ edelbrock heads and intake and a mild cam.

[SCFFR]

x2 on the 351W. When I started on my MkIV, I originally planned on a 302 and my goal was 400 hp. I soon realized that it was possible but only with significant modifications. You can get that 400 hp from a 351W with less work and less stress on the block and components. That said, everyone has their own preferences so I would go with what you feel most comfortable with.

[edwardb]

Any ideas on the most cost effective way to get the 5.0 to 300hp, and then to 350-400? I suppose it's mostly a matter of getting decent heads and such, but its the "such" I'm having trouble identifying.

I think the path here is pretty well proven. Assuming a solid rotating assembly, different heads and cam should get you over 300hp. Ford heads (GT40 etc) give less of a bump than some of the aftermarket varieties (Edelbrock, AFR, Trick Flow, etc.) but can be found pretty reasonably. You can make decent power with the FI setup, but that's also a time to switch a different intake and carb if that's what you want. To get to the 350-400+ range with a 302 is a deeper dive into the rotating assembly. Especially if you do a stroker (331, 347) along with the other changes you're typically over 400hp.

As others said, relatively cheap and easy to get to 400+ with a 351 block. But agreed that's a decision that needs to be made up front because of the taller deck height.

[Gyvven]

Great info guys, thank you.

I guess I should shop for a 351w and acquire a couple of things for it. I might go with the GT40 heads to start, sounds like that might meet my budget as well as my 300hp initial goal. I'll start researching stroker kits and other 351w builds.

Thanks again.

[MPTech]

Need to decide what your goals are.
Donor:
Economical: go with a 302, huge aftermarket, the roadster was MADE for it, piece of cake
Economical Horsepower: 351, also huge aftermarket, more horsepower potential, fits a roadster but a little more customization (deck height and headers)
Modern-Tech: Modular (4.6) or balls-to-the-wall (Coyote), little more challenging to improve on but already very strong, more expensive, lot more customization and a tight squeeze in the engine compartment and sacrifice some footbox area

then there's Crate Motors (nice and new, but you're jumping up a couple levels of costs and a lot more pieces to compile (and wiring harness / computer(s)

and you need to decide EFI vs. carb
and NA vs Turbo vs Blown vs NOS (or in some cases, ALL OF THE ABOVE :eek:)


I'd like to start with 300hp but be able to bump up to 350-400 later on easily and cheaply.
LOL you know HP costs $$$ * 2 :cool:

My original plan was a 4.6 mod motor, they look great in the engine bay, provide good HP, sound good and provide decent MPG
but after hearing what the wiring system was going to cost and the header issues and FB limitations, I decided to go simpler, with a '93 302 with some basic upgrades (cam, heads, intake, and injectors)

I figure this will be a good baseline, and if I really get the urge for more HP, I still have room for additional economical upgrades.

Good Luck, you won't regret it!

[GWL]

Looks like everyone has added some good thoughts pro and con. I went through the same thought process; 4.6 or 5.0L?

I studied, read and thought about my goals and came away with the 5.0L, 302 engine choice.

Major reasons:


Much easier engine to work on

Huge aftermarket and following

Smaller size engine allowing modification to both footboxes, I will explain later.

Less expensive to work on and modify


Originally, I was going to use a used '97 Explorer engine with only 60,000 miles. However, that engine turned out bad. I am, though, going to use the better flowing GT-40p heads, the larger MAF meter and throttle body from that engine on an '89 Ford 302 block. I've had to bore out the block to 306, new pistons, mild Trick Flow cam, new Trick Flow valve springs and all revolving parts balanced. I'll be looking at power in the 300HP range.

On this engine I'll be using Ford Racing Shorty Headers that allow for more expansion of the footboxes on both sides because the engine is narrower than the 4.6 modular engine. These headers are different than others to better work with the GT-40p head. However, I did have some interference with the passenger engine mount which I believe I've solved with two grade 8 washers under the engine mount to lift the engine slightly on that side. I will be using catalytic converters or J pipes to allow for a better fit up with the side pipes. I've got a set of both and will start out with the catalytic converters for a lower decibel exhaust sound. I may experiment with both to gauge the sound difference.

Now, there are many that have chosen the 4.6, for many good reasons, but it just turned out it was not the engine to meet my goals.

George

[Rootbeer Roadster]

Getting 300 HP is easy on a lightly modified 302. I have a used Explorer motor with a stock HO cam and carb conversion. It did 260 rwhp and 285 rwtorque. If you use a 17% drive train loss that gives you 304 HP and 333 torque at the popular flywheel number. Changing the heads and cam would get you to your 350HP number, but not 400HP. You would have to spend $$$$ on either a supercharger or stroker to get there with a 302. If your committed to 400HP you should look at the 351 engine. By the way the car is very fast on the street with 304HP.

Jeff

[Avalanche325]

It is good that you are thinking about this now. It really is the first decision that needs to be made.


Like everything, there are pros and cons:
A 302 will be much cheaper to modify than a 4.6l. 1 cam insead of 2 or 4, etc.
You could probably find a lower milage 4.6 if you want to drop it straight in and go.
A 302 needs some work to get over 300hp, and major work to get over 400. You can approach 500 with a carb if you go 347 and serious aftermarket heads.
A 302 fits better and is easier to work on.
A 4.6 can get better gas milage, LOL. Do you really care in this car?

For a donor car Mustang or a Fox body Capri. Engines of course can come from many sources.

If I had to open the bottom of a 302 up, I would at least stroke it to 331.

[FFRSpec72]

A 302 needs some work to get over 300hp, and major work to get over 400.

Not really, most of us in the challenge series ran 302 with about 320-331 rwhp with just the Trickflow topend, we put a lot of stress (30-40 min of 6K revs) on these engines and they are pretty sound and no issues with engine all season. so you can get up in the 360 rwhp range w/o much engine work.

[skullandbones]

The real downside to the 4.6 besides being so big and the ugly plumbing that pretty much has to stay is that it is not a hot rodder engine. That is, you aren't going to tear it down and upgrade it on your own. Unless they've simplified models recently, I think you would have to just about be a Ford technician to work on one seriously. Even in a Horse Power episode spotlighting the engine, it was stated that they are very techical when doing modifications. Personally, I would like to have the option of making mods if I wanted. The 302 is pretty easy to work on once you figure out some of the Ford idiosyncrocies like the firing orders (two different ones)! I am beginning to like the little engine. It grows on you. If I require more hp after this one, I will go the 351W route. Good luck whatever you decide. WEK.

[GWL]

Not really, most of us in the challenge series ran 302 with about 320-331 rwhp with just the Trickflow topend, we put a lot of stress (30-40 min of 6K revs) on these engines and they are pretty sound and no issues with engine all season. so you can get up in the 360 rwhp range w/o much engine work.

Tony,

Those are impressive numbers with just a Trick Flow top end change and at the rear wheels too. Just what do you mean by top end? Heads, Intake system, cam?? What then gets you to the 360HP range?

Thanks, George

[SStrong]

My nephew built my 302 (306) for less than $5000 and it puts out right at 400hp. He has a 348 that puts out 1850hp (dynoed) and runs 8.0 at 190 in the quarter (Mustang). You can get plenty of power out of a 302. I did get the short block half price ($1200) when the original buyer abandoned it at the engine shop so expect about $2400 worth of machine work.
By the way, his Mustang is street legal. Look up Tony Strong Ford versus Buick. He was running street tires and no wheelie bar at that time. He had to put another parachute and upgrade his wheelie bar after that.
I'll probably be putting my motor in next week. Have to get it here first. I had actually only wanted about 300 hp (I'm old and slow). Wifey may want to race though.
Whatever you decide, it will be scary fast. I've driven a Roadster with a stock 5.0, and it's great.

[Gyvven]

Thanks for all the input, fantastic stuff. I think I'll steer clear of the 4.6, just too many cons I'm not keen on. I like the both the 302 and the 351w mainly for ease of upgrade and lack of wiring if I go carb, but I think I'm leaning towards the 351 because it needs that much less to meet my hp goals. There are a good number of late 90's blocks available locally for a decent price, and older ones are dirt cheap. I'm going to call my machine shop and start discussing options and recommendations with him.

some more questions for you guys that have gone through it.
If I go with the 351w:


Should I order the FF J pipes or go with something else?
Other than the deck height effecting the exhaust are there any other clearance issues or areas that need modification?
Should I go with the older 69-73 block or any block should do?
Roller lifters or not?


If I go with a 302:


Is there a preffered year(s) of block to look for?
Roller Lifters?
I don't know enough about the 302 (or the 351 for that matter) to ask any more questions, so if you have some suggestions...

Assume anything I pick up will get torn down, bored and rebuilt. I'm not planning on a big bore, but if I get the 351w I'll probably look at doing a 408 stroker.

[tirod]

A stroker 408 vs Coyote would be the much harder choice these days.

There's an intermediate step of getting a motor - buying a crate short block, adding your own top end. Doing that, you get a reliable reciprocating assembly done right, and the donkey work of adding the bolt on stuff is up to you. About the hardest part is getting the push rod length correct to center up on the valve stem. It also leaves you with using what you can, and then changing what you want later, with no worry the lower end would be inadequate.

As for the mod motor, one thing left out of the conversation is the cam gears are not keyed or splined to the shafts. You have to use cam holders to hold them, or have a machine shop reset the timing, because you can't line up the dots and throw on a chain. It's dial indicator work. Plus, to remove a cam, you follow the torque sequence in reverse - or it gets bent. And one of the numerous changes in the heads was to install spark plugs that wouldn't seize or get ejected from the motor. They are known to have issues with intake gaskets leaking coolant into the motor, too. It's my perspective a lot of mod motor owners don't actually put them together. It's always about what shop did it for them.

I sell auto parts and mod motors have some unique aftermarket repair parts and tools the Windsor never needed.

[edwardb]

Some more questions for you guys that have gone through it.
If I go with the 351w:


Should I order the FF J pipes or go with something else?
Other than the deck height effecting the exhaust are there any other clearance issues or areas that need modification?
Should I go with the older 69-73 block or any block should do?
Roller lifters or not?


If I go with a 302:


Is there a preffered year(s) of block to look for?
Roller Lifters?
I don't know enough about the 302 (or the 351 for that matter) to ask any more questions, so if you have some suggestions...

Assume anything I pick up will get torn down, bored and rebuilt. I'm not planning on a big bore, but if I get the 351w I'll probably look at doing a 408 stroker.

Wow from 300HP 302 to a 408 stroker in one short thread. Now that's scope creep! Seriously, I can't give you specific recommendations for what year blocks to use. But I can give some general responses.

What are the requirements for where you will title the car? In some cases, the year of the block drives the year it's titled and in turn the emission setup required. Something to consider. I don't think you need J pipes unless you're planning cats, again your choice or if required.

The deck height on the 351 will affect the exhaust headers and also the intake. Depending on the intake manifold and carb you use, can run into height limitations specifically for the air cleaner. It's not a big deal, just have to be aware that the 1.3 inch difference will cause some parts used on a 302 to not work on a 351.

I would strongly recommend only looking at a roller setup. Otherwise you're going to need to use special oil or additives. Why bother? Rollers have been standard for years and they work great. Some of the older blocks aren't set up for rollers, although there are ways to still run in them. Easier is to go with a block made for rollers if you have a choice though. That way you can use a standard cam, lifters, retainer, etc.

[Gyvven]

Scope creep is when your right foot tells you it doesn't want to drive in straight lines.

Did a little searching and found some builds where guys did 393 strokers, which seems like a good economical compromise, 302 pistons with 351 rods. I'd just need to come up with a good setup for heads, manifold and carb. It'll cost money but not many thousands of dollars... I hope.

The plan, for now, is to find a '94+ 351w motor, strip it, clean, bore , balance and put back together. If I find heads (GT40p or AFR 205) and such before it's back together then I'll be that much farther along. Now I need to research transmissions.

[Avalanche325]

Not really, most of us in the challenge series ran 302 with about 320-331 rwhp with just the Trickflow topend, we put a lot of stress (30-40 min of 6K revs) on these engines and they are pretty sound and no issues with engine all season. so you can get up in the 360 rwhp range w/o much engine work.

I would certainly consider changing heads, intake and cam - some work.

Going into the bottom end, stroking etc - major work.

I think we are on the same track.

[CraigS]

A TKO 500 is the obvious choice. It shifts nice and has the standard Mustang ratios. To be able to select 1st and 5th gear ratios step up to a TKO600. RE: engine. Another option to save a few $ for heads are these guys
http://www.hunterstyle.com/thumper/
Read through their website and see what they may be able to do on whatever heads you find on your engine.

[RonnieType65]

I am hoping to use the 4.6 out of my 98 GT as my donor. It makes 250rwhp with very little modifications right now, and I have the SVO Supercharger kit sitting in the garage. This is the kit that sits upside down in the valley of the block, very hard to detect to the untrained eye. Would love to have a 350rwhp roadster.

[Timb]

I am hoping to use the 4.6 out of my 98 GT as my donor. It makes 250rwhp with very little modifications right now, and I have the SVO Supercharger kit sitting in the garage. This is the kit that sits upside down in the valley of the block, very hard to detect to the untrained eye. Would love to have a 350rwhp roadster.

As long as you aren't greedy with boost the SVO is great since it is non intercooled. I had one in a 3800 lb car so in a FFR it will be really lively :)
One thing to consider I tapped one of the runners and installed a F150 lightning intake air temp sender in it which allowed the SCT guys to pull timing as blower temps increased to prevent detonation

[CraigS]

I will add one more thought to this discussion. Appearance. When I open the hood of my wifes 2010 Mustang w/ 4.6 I think it looks great. The current Boss 302 is on my wish list. I really like the looks of a 2013 Vette too. I was looking at pics of one of the Dodge products w/ a Hemi the other day and thought they looked great too. But when I open the hood of my FFR, a carburated Ford small block is the only thing that looks right. Ok, Ok, a big block would be Ok too!

[FFinisher]

Wow, what a bunch of downers on the 4.6

Nobody wants to mention that a stock 4.6 DOHC with NO mods puts out 305/320 horse? and that they run like sewing machines and are reliable as anything out there?
How about a supercharged 4.6? Rated at 390 horse stock, throw a pulley on it and get 430 horse?

Buy a wrecked 03-04 Mach 1, Build your car and drive the snot out of it.

my personal car is stock fuel injected 302 with 30,000 miles on it, but I have built a bunch of 4.6's. If I were to replace my car it would be a supercharged 4.6 DOHC..

My advice?

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it, they (4.6's)are all that..... and a bag of chips.

[Blate]

Lots of good info here...my friend runs a 4.6 for autocross with an automatic...it is built and he keeps up with Zo6's.

Now let me take you a different direction....big block FE :)

[Timb]

I will add one more thought to this discussion. Appearance. When I open the hood of my wifes 2010 Mustang w/ 4.6 I think it looks great. The current Boss 302 is on my wish list. I really like the looks of a 2013 Vette too. I was looking at pics of one of the Dodge products w/ a Hemi the other day and thought they looked great too. But when I open the hood of my FFR, a carburated Ford small block is the only thing that looks right. Ok, Ok, a big block would be Ok too!

I don't know you paint up a 4.6 in old school Ford Blue and they look a lot like a big block. then again I'm probably biased

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_xfbD2QC7xw/T3eAnAhRzLI/AAAAAAAAAK4/-QEzFqJxxkE/s1600/IMG_6139.JPG

[austingoblue]

4.6 - runs like a champ...good gas mileage...low mile donor so only had to dress it up and make it look pretty.13936