Five point harness

[skullandbones]

I've started installing the harnesses and I can't believe I never even took them out of the boxes to get a better look at them. They are really a nice peice of hardware (just sat on the shelf all this time). So I have a question about install and then another about how people use them.

First: where do you mount the crotch belt? My first thought was to mount to the 2 inch tube where the cockpit drops off into the foot box for stength.

Second: How many people don't install this peice at all if you are not racing? Also, (be honest) how many of you use the seat belt portion sometimes without the shoulder harness straps? It's pretty comfortable without but I feel like someone has straped me into a straight jacket when I put the shoulder harnesses on. I can see how important they are for any kind of racing. So don't assume I am ignorant about that point. BTW, I am a strong advocate of seat belt and safety restraints ever since my last accident at 17 when I hit a bridge embuttment at about 60 mph in an out of control spin. When you are thrown into the other side of the car with your face pressed against the window and you survive the incident, it is a life changing moment! I think the harnesses are sort of a "badge of honor" so I will probably be wearing them most of the time but I am curious about different people's behavior with these things. Thanks in advance. WEK

[J.D.]

From a legal perspective, most states require that if you install a safety device in a vehicle you must then maintain and use that device for the life of the vehicle. So if by model year you are only required to have a lap belt, you may install a lap belt and be legal. If you later install a 5 point harness you are then required to use all five points or be subject to a seat belt fine. You also may not remove the 5 point harness and return to the lap belt.

I am not a lawyer, and this is only my understanding of the law.

That said I plan to use the lap and shoulder belts, with the shoulder belts just loose enough to give a good range of motion.

[edwardb]

Finishing up my first season with my Mk3, about 1700 miles. I have the full Simpson setup in both seats, and use them at all times. For me not an option. I've taken people on rides and at first sometimes they didn't want to use the belts, but I insist. The sub belt is important to keep you from submarining under the other belts. So an important part of the system.

I think it's important to remember these cars have no safety devices other than a decent tube frame, roll bar and this harness. No airbags, and nothing about the steering wheel or dash is specifically designed for safety factors. You really don't want to be planting your face into either.

Additionally, if you have a seat belt law in your state (don't all now?) then a lap and shoulder belt are required.

Having said that, I don't wear them so tight that I'm pinned in the seat. You need to find the right balance to give the proper restraint, but still not unduly uncomfortable. After a season, the belts are just part of the experience (which is a blast BTW) and I don't even think about them any more.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Believe me, you'll want the 5th point. Without it when you snug the shoulder straps the lap belt comes up. Then the shoulders are loose again so you tighten those more and it is a viscious circle...that ends with you contorted and hunched over! With the sub strap snugged it keeps the lap belt in place on your hips as the shoulders are tightened. Much more effective, comfortable AND safer 'cause the belt will be on your hips where it belongs rather than across your belly should the worst happen.

I added tabs to the X frame in front of the seats for an attachment point.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/100_0386.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/100_0930.jpg

Regarding using the lap portion only; years ago my good buddy John Phillips summed it up best by saying that when he looked around inside the cockpit he didn't see anything that he wanted to hit himself in the face with! Unfortunately there have been a few incidents reported on the forums of people being injured when involved in street accidents while wearing only the lap belts. One in particular that sticks in my mind was of a guys wife who was in the passenger seat and suffered some pretty serious facial injuries when a car pulled out in front of them. For me and anyone in the car it's all the belts, all the time.

Jeff

[Gale K]

Agree with Jeff: all belts all the time. The sub belt on my Kirkey race seats is bolted to a 1.25" square tube that is bolted under the front of the seat attached to the Sparco sliders. So, it slides with the seat. If it pulls out in the event of an accident, there are so many more things wrong at that point than that...

The accident Jeff is talking about would have been less severe (IMHO) had they had shoulder belts on. Not knocking them (and it is very unfortunate they were in the wreck, and I hate it), but just making a personal observation that I'd rather hit the shoulder belts than the steering wheel/windshield/whatever.

[skullandbones]

I knew some interesting stories would come out of this. Keep it coming!!

Jeff when you mentioned the loose belts flying around during an accident the image of the guy in the high speed roll (Cobra roadster replica) over came to mind. He had a GoPro camera running and his St Christopher metal kept floating around in front of the camera during the slo mo sequence. Those heavy metal end peices would be like flying nun chuks (ouch!). Thanks for the pics. Since I didn't really plan for the connection point, I will have to do a retrofit of some kind. I do have a small steel crossmember under my seat. I may be able to float a mounting flange off that. Thanks again, WEK.

[FFRSpec72]

If you have a five point harness you should have it tight as submarining can happen and if that happens then that crotch strap can cause damage, quite a few racers

[skullandbones]

I found some brackets (small 1/16 in steel with one hole and two bends about 1.5 by 1.5 in) I had them in the "don't know what this is for" drawer. Thankfully there isn't a lot of stuff in there. But after talking about this, it made me wonder if these were meant to be attached to the front edge of the underside of the seats and attached with some wood screws (to attach the skinny belt to between your legs). Well, I will use them anyway but I will thru bolt them to the steel crossmember that I installed under the seats to attach to the sliders. So that turned out pretty well. If these brackets below somewhere else on the roadster, I can't figure it out. WEK.

[Jeff Kleiner]

FFR does not provide anything for mounting the sub strap. The belt attaches to the chassis, not the seat. I don't know what you found but 1/16" is not beefy enough. Those tabs I made are .190", same as the mounts for the lap and shoulder belts.

Jeff

[FMJ]

Jeff,

Did you make the tabs or find them somewhere?

-Fred

[CraigS]

To expand on what Jeff said a little. MY thinking is you wear a lap belt only, or you wear all 5 belts. For most of us submarining under the lap belt isn't much of an issue since we sit pretty upright. But w/o the sub belt, the lap belt is pulled up by the shoulder belts. The lap belt is supposed to grab your hips. If it rides upward it will be grabbing your belly and can cause severe internal organ injuries.

[DARKPT]

The submarine belt should be mounted behind where it comes up through the seat. The flat steel piece under the floor that you drilled through to mount the seat is the best location for it.

[Mustang Man]

As stated by darkpt, the anti-sub strap should come up through the seat directly in front of the body (the "boys")...

Having the anti-sub strap six inches in front of you (wrapping over the front of the seat) only means you're going to slide six inches forward under the belt before your boys get smashed by the belt.

I wear a Schroth ASM four-point restraint DAILY in my Fox Mustang for the last 17 years. When I get into a regular three-point belt car I feel like I am going to move around too much due to the belt freedom, so getting into the Roadster is second nature. I did upgrade the Simpsons to Schroth ASM belts as well in the Roadster, this way I don't have to worry about using/properly mounting an anti-sub strap.

If the belts were designed around an anti-sub strap, install it properly and use it (all five, six, or seven points of attachment). You'll get used to wearing them, I promise! :D

Mark

[ATOLightning]

As stated by darkpt, the anti-sub strap should come up through the seat directly in front of the body (the "boys")...

Having the anti-sub strap six inches in front of you (wrapping over the front of the seat) only means you're going to slide six inches forward under the belt before your boys get smashed by the belt.

I wear a Schroth ASM four-point restraint DAILY in my Fox Mustang for the last 17 years. When I get into a regular three-point belt car I feel like I am going to move around too much due to the belt freedom, so getting into the Roadster is second nature. I did upgrade the Simpsons to Schroth ASM belts as well in the Roadster, this way I don't have to worry about using/properly mounting an anti-sub strap.

If the belts were designed around an anti-sub strap, install it properly and use it (all five, six, or seven points of attachment). You'll get used to wearing them, I promise! :D

Mark

I plan to go with the Schroth belts, too. I not only like the 4 pt ASM-style belt but the more OEM-style push button latches as well.

Either way, I will be using all the belts all the time...it's just not worth it

[AZPete]

Bill, all five all the time. You'll soon get used to it, just as I think you are now used to the lap belts in your DD.
Pete

watch for a PM.

[skullandbones]

I am getting the message loud and clear: "all five all the time"! I am in the process of fabbing tabs out of 1/8 steel angle. I have one drilled and almost on. I will be putting the seat in temporarily to gokart this weekend and then take it back out to finish the insulation and carpet. I will do a couple of pics of the "crotch strap". BTW, I got a diagram from Simpson on the correct orientation. The problem is, I don't have racing seats so it is hard to get the strap as far back as recommended. I believe the bracket will be strong enough as the strap is somewhat smaller than the other belts and I believe that indicates that it is meant as a secondary restraint, that is, meant to hold the harness latch below your belly button during a crash by opposing the shoulder straps. If you have the lap belt straps correctly tightened as instructed in the Simpson diagram, then "submarining" will not occur. I would hate to depend on that little strap to stop the "boys" in the case of an accident. If it was designed for that, they should have sewn a catcher's mit to the strap! I'll get back to ya. WEK.

[Jeff Kleiner]

...it is meant to hold the harness latch below your belly button during a crash by opposing the shoulder straps. If you have the lap belt straps correctly tightened as instructed in the Simpson diagram, then "submarining" will not occur. I would hate to depend on that little strap to stop the "boys" in the case of an accident.

I rarely disagree with Mark but your assessment is correct. It's purpose is to keep the lap belt in place, not serve as a stop for any part of the body. Mark is absolutely correct that ideally it should be mounted to be somewhat in line with the shoulder straps however that is not always possible. In those cases I feel that it is still much better than not having it at all.

Jeff

[Mustang Man]

No, the anti-sub is not "designed" to stop you, I didn't mean to imply that and sorry for the confusion. But it will hurt like hell when your boys end up inside you because your body slammed into it! LOL

Properly mounted and used, the body does not impact or press against the anti-sub, it's sole purpose is to keep the lap belt in the proper location so that the lap belt (and shoulder restraints) can do its job.

The Simpsons, and other style latch-link "race" belts are very safe when used properly, but for street use they can be confusing to passengers, and in an emergency I don't want to rely on an EMT or fireman (or good samaritan) having the knowledge of how to unbuckle them. Having a DOT style red pushbutton that says "PRESS" or the like, which is what my Schroths have, is just another little piece of mind. Any passenger can easily buckle my cam locks because you click them in one at a time and you don't have to hold it all together while you work the duckbill into place. To get out, just push the button (and don't THROW the belts over your shoulder!) :-(

Mark

[skullandbones]

test

[skullandbones]

Here are some pics I did of the task. I used one of the 3/4 inch tubes to attach the tab. I think it is as centered and far back as possible taking into consideration the belt adjustment, the seat slider, and the location of the attachment point.

After I re-adjusted the shoulder straps a little, I can see what you guys were talking about as far as creature comfort is concerned. It will require some more tweeking to make the routine a little easier.

I learned some things like: 1. unattached harness components can act as missles during a crash.

2. The slinging of a harness strap could put some serious dings in a nice paint job.

3. There is a lot more science to this aspect of the project than is manifested in what you see.

4. Harness is much easier to get out of than get in (not even close).

5. You could get a ticket if you are using just part of the harness (lap belt) when you are stopped.

6. FFR is dead serious about this being a race car.

7. All five all the time!!!!

Thanks a lot from everyone,

WEK.

[FFRSpec72]

Also please check the angle of the shoulder straps as these should not be greater than 20 degrees (up or down) from the top of the shoulders, otherwise can cause some injury if in a accident. See http://www.sfifoundation.com/SeatbeltGuide06-05-12.pdf

[skullandbones]

You're right! I have a rather long torso so my shoulders are above the seat back quite a bit. I may have to install some sort of tube off of the back cockpit wall that sits higher than the slots where the shoulder harnesses come out from their attachment point. I think I have seen a device like that. Actually, wasn't sure what it was for but now it makes more sense. What have you guys done if this occured. I don't think changing brands would help this situation. I'll bet if you had a head and neck restraint device that would probably be included as well. Thanks, WEK.

[CraigS]

The other problem I see w/ the FFR attachment points is the one at the trans tunnel. In your pic notice how the outboard belt goes from the buckle more downward toward the floor than the other side. The inboard belt angles closer to horizontal to a mount further rearward which means that side of the belt is more apt to ride upward when loaded. I fabbed another mount location for both of my inner belts for this reason.

[skullandbones]

The design of the seat helps mitigate the issue you speak of (Craig S.) a little but I do see you point. Did you mount your seats pretty square. Mine are skewed out drivers to the left and passengers to the right. So do you have a pic of where you moved yours? If you are racing I bet it gets pretty hairy with the head restraints and all the regulations. It seems a little strick to limit the lifetime of the belts to two years. Hell, mine were expired before I even got it on the road. Well, mine are mounted now and I want to get some seat time on them to see what works best. Thanks, WEK.