Question on lights that has always bothered me.

[PhyrraM]

Now that it's all but confirmed that the headlights are from a 2002-2006 Toyota Camry I figure it's a good time to ask a question that has always bugged me - even long before the 818 was concieved.

There are a few options on "bolt-in" light styles straight from the Toyota catalog (SE, LE, yearly changes) with plenty more in the aftermarket. But the most commonly asked question is going to be about projectors and HIDs.

There are TONS of folks who install HID bulbs and conversion kits in housing designed for regular halogen bulbs. I know that many of these aftermarket HID kits claim that they are bolt in and 100% compatable.

Now, whether we are talking a "regular" reflector type of light or a projector type of light, the assembly and reflector are designed to give a proper beam with a halogen lamp that uses a filament. A filament that emits light from a line about 1/4" long. An HID bulb emits light from a POINT, not a line.

I cannot figure out how ANY HID kit can give a proper beam pattern in an assembly designed for a halogen bulb. I'm not talking about OEM HIDs, which I'm sure are properly designed to disperse the light from a point. I'm also not talking about aftermarket HID that include a proper housing/lens assembly. I'm talking about the kits that claim to be effective while only replacing the bulb and adding a ballast.

Thoughts?

[Mechie3]

They don't work. They get close but not close enough imo. Mostly they refer to changing the bulb base and making it mechanically fit.

[Benji]

NONE of them do/can and you look like an idiot driving down the street like that, you can spot them a mile off.

[Rasmus]

No HID kit can be placed in a halogen reflector and work properly. It just scatters the light in front of the car blinding on coming traffic.

To get HID to work correctly you have to install the projector also. That is, the lens.

http://images.gasgoo.com/MiMwMDRfMDA0Izg4NDY1MzEwMA--/auto-part-hid-projector-lens-lamp-light-with-angel-eyes.jpg
Yes!

http://plasmagarage.com/images/9007_Bi-Xenon_HID_bulb.jpg
No.

[PhyrraM]

See...? That's what my brain has always told me. Some things just don't make sense, right? It's just that there are SO many folks doing it (wrong) and then glowing about thier results it makes you wonder and question your logic.

Another pet peeve of mine is folks using JDM lights as a fashion accessory without any consideration for the result. It's pretty rampant in the Subaru community. Actually I'd guess it's rampant in every import based community - other than German cars, who's lights (from mainland Europe) we can use.

[Benji]

Note that projectors does NOT = xenons, there are HALOGEN projectors as well and these also are incorrect and look stupid.

You *must* have a XENON projector, not a halogen projector. All xenons are projectors, not all projectors are xenon ;)

[Mechie3]

04/05 STI came factory with non projector HID lamps. I always take people results with a grain of salt unless I know their background. Someone who only ever drove suvs with all season tires thinks a stock subaru with all seasons handles amazing. As someone who autocrosses a small formula car with slicks, I think the steering is loose, in understeers, and has no grip. Its all about perspective.

[RM1SepEx]

Good analogy Mechie3... I autocross a bunch (17 years 10-15 a year) and as a Mechanical Engineer tend to take it a bit far as to how/why they handle... I ran an old Red Devil FMod for several years, before that a V6 Fiero... I'm currently addicted to my DD2 kart, our club runs them with the shifters... My body gets its adrenaline rush big time and I'm sore for 2-3 days after. (I'm no longer a spring chicken being born in the late 50's)

Newbies in WRX/STI are spouting the Subaru "handling" prowess big time until they get beat by a 20 year old stock Miata... Then they drive one and a WRX becomes what I refer to as a "refrigerator" a capable driving appliance. (Put them in low traction conditions, wow what beasts!) There is a reason SCCA classes them with lower HP BMWs that handle better. We shouldn't expect any more than that out of a warmed over econobox like the Impreza, Subaru does a great job of it.

Stock light outputs should be just fine on the street, you have to balance your ability to see vs the oncoming car's ability to go unblinded. Combo unengineered lighting solutions are WORSE than stock, lighting needs to be properly directed/aimed not just brighter.

If you need 250,000 candle power to drive the streets you need your eyes checked or are driving waaaay too fast.

[Benji]

See...? That's what my brain has always told me. Some things just don't make sense, right? It's just that there are SO many folks doing it (wrong) and then glowing about thier results it makes you wonder and question your logic.

Yep and as commented in the other thread, this is why there is a 140 page thread on so many people doing it wrong:

http://www.hidplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?37924-the-hid-fail-gallery

Friends don't let friends install xenons in halogen reflectors/projectors.

[Mechie3]

I took my stock 06WRX headlights with halogen projectors, swapped in TSX HID projectors, and loved it. Decided I never wanted another car without (proper) HID again. The benefit to me of a halogen projector is that the swap is much easier to do. Usually it only involves trimming and drilling new mounting holes. With reflectors the swap requires adding shields and making mounts so that it looks pretty and is sturdy.

[Benji]

Yeah, once you've driven a properly equipped or properly retrofitted xenon headlight car, it'll become obvious to those who incorrectly retrofit.

I went from a car that had bi-xenons to a car with halogen reflectors and I miss it!

[Xusia]

I don't drive enough at night to care about changing the stock lighting on my own cars, but it's interesting nonetheless and I'm learning a lot! :)

[crash]

LED is the way of the future.

Come see the FFR PDG GTM at SEMA that is outfitted with the newest HIDs and LEDs to battle this year in the 25 Hours of Thunderhill race. We have had poor results in previous years with "other" types of lights, but last year we switched over to true HIDs and this year we are mixing HIDs and LEDs for some SERIOUS lighting. All told, more than $4000 worth of lights are on this GTM! We take corners at over 100 MPH and as such need not only good lights out in front of us, but pointing to the apexes as well. These Baja Designs lights, we believe, will be just the ticket.

Many different auxilary lighting configurations are available from Baja Designs and we will be showcasing their newest two "bulb" LED lights in the apex/cornering light positions. These appear to put out EXTREME amounts of light for their size and should retrofit to any FFR while being inconspicuous during the day. They only draw 21 watts of power per unit when lit. Baja designs has both on and off road designed lights, and we are very proud to have them as a feature sponsor of the Mendeola Transaxles Baja Designs FFR PDG GTM.

But to answer the OPs original question, yes, in almost all cases a retrofit using the original reflectors will come out bad. Totally different light bulb design.

[wooward]

04/05 STI came factory with non projector HID lamps. I always take people results with a grain of salt unless I know their background. Someone who only ever drove suvs with all season tires thinks a stock subaru with all seasons handles amazing. As someone who autocrosses a small formula car with slicks, I think the steering is loose, in understeers, and has no grip. Its all about perspective.

Yep, my 04 STI does have non-projector HID Headlights. The headlights are height adjustable in the car via a switch to I believe 3 positions. The light output is ok but its not the same as my TSX projector retrofits in my 05 RSX-S. Light output is amazing with HID projectors.

[Neptune's Snorkel]

Note that projectors does NOT = xenons, there are HALOGEN projectors as well and these also are incorrect and look stupid.

You *must* have a XENON projector, not a halogen projector. All xenons are projectors, not all projectors are xenon ;)

Well, that's not completely true.

D2R = HIDs (Xenons in this case) with reflectors
D2S = HIDs (Xenons in this case) with projectors

They make halogens in both reflectors and projectors. Same with HIDs. If you want an example of a reflector based HID, look at the JZS161 (1998+ Lexus GS).
Reflectors kinda suck, though, so they're being phased out (look at Hyundai, for example).

Edited to take out attitude, lol.

[Benji]

Well, that's not completely true.

Interesting, I did not know that! Thank you for that bit of information.

And Crash, yes LED's are the future. I didn't think they would be but they are on factory cars now so they must be good enough and yes I would imagine that xenons would be way too fragile for racing.

Going to look up Baja Designs now :)

[flynntuna]

$15000 budget , just a suggestion:rolleyes:

[Neptune's Snorkel]

If you're not interested in doing a retrofit or paying $1000+ to have a system built, consider finding a set of (rare or unique) Toyota/Lexus headlights that are factory upgrades. In the few minutes I was researching, it appears that the chassis codes differ based on engine, but the luxury (LE) Camry is MCV30. There is a Lexus
with the same chassis code, which is EXTREMELY LIKELY to have OEM Xenons, but they might not be the exact same physical shape. I haven't checked yet. Make sure to check JDM (Japanese Domestic Market) headlights, too. Some have smoked/blacked out housings (cooler than plastic chrome, lol) and other
style differences, and many with factory xenons. But, remember to verify that the headlights are a direct swap (body wise, not wiring wise) to the USDM (American domestic market) or they won't fit the 818 (atleast without fiberglass and bodywork AT THE LEAST). If you can't find the answers you're looking for, consider joining the Toyota Nation forums and ask in the 5th Gen Camry section. I'm sure those guys know EXACTLY what choices there are and the advantages and disadvantages of each.

I hope this info helps. It would be cool to see 818's with a wide variety of headlights, instead of everybody pimping the same lame plastic chrome USDM halogens :P
Retrofitting is the bee's knees, though.

[Benji]

Even if there were JDM versions, unfortunately they probably wouldn't be appropriate for the US if the aim is wrong.

I wonder if there was ever a Lexus in the US that did though...

flynntuna, note that $4000 is what Crash spent on their race car and that is likely because they have multiple (ie. more than two) lights going on for extreme lighting, have a look at the Baja Designs site, some of the Squadron units are reasonable if you were just getting two and were feeling a little spendy with certain parts of the 818.

[PhyrraM]

The Lexus equivalent to the Camry is the ES series. I would *guess* the same year range (2002-2006). I zone in on 2003-2005, just to be certain. I would first check the eBay aftermarket crap and see if the ads list both the Camry and the Lexus ES for the same lights. If they do, your 90% certain that the Lexus OEM HIDs will work. I'm guessing, based on preliminary nose shots on Google, they they won't interchange.

I'll try to zone in on it later.

[Benji]

Yep, had a look at a few pics, looks like a no go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_ES

[PhyrraM]

The Lexus ES330 lights are not the same shape. Kinda sucks because, they all have factory halogen projectors for the low beam with HID being optional. All the high-beams are reflector halogens.

[wooward]

Even if there were JDM versions, unfortunately they probably wouldn't be appropriate for the US if the aim is wrong.

To clarify, both LHD and RHD projectors illuminate the passenger side more vertically then the driver side. This is to illuminate road signs on the passenger side and to not blind on coming traffic on the drivers side. So if the headlight you get is JDM, it's probably RHD and won't work here in the US. You can see the difference in the pic.

12021

[Neptune's Snorkel]

Quite a good point, Benji!! Not only would the cutoff shields angle up in the wrong direction, but the squirrel finders would be on the wrong side, too. These would result in blinding oncoming traffic AND not being able to adequately illuminate street signs.

Phyrram, it sounds like you're a parts compatibility sleuth, :D Very cool!!
Though, check the 2001-2002 ES300, not the 2003+ ES330...

[Mechie3]

The benefit of the jdm lights (if they have projectors) is that its much easier to swap in a lhd projector. As the mounting base and shroud is already in place.

[VTX]

If you do a projector retrofit yourself it can be done for about $300-400 with good quality components. Maybe a little less. I had a professional installer do mine and it was about $900 to retrofit the lenses into the light housings (including the cost of the kit). I did all the wiring myself, which was easy.

If I were to do it again I'd probably retrofit the lenses into the housings myself and save a bit of money. I don't think it's all that difficult and there are a lot of how to guides out there.