Stacked Injection

[astglenn]

Pinging folks with stacked injection systems. How have they been, once tuned? How is the throttle response? Is it worth the $$?

I run a well tuned, high winding 306 with Powerjection lll. I don't want to go backwards in drive-ability or performance. I have owned enough down draft Webbers to know that is not the answer to get the look, at the headache level that Webbers can be, plus I would need to do a cam change.

Tell me about your Stacks please? Also the management system. I believe that the more modern systems are non-batch fired and adaptive tune.

What say you?

[oldguy668]

Glenn, get with Wayne Presley. He's the most knowledgeable we have on the topic.

[Martin]

I'm keen to know opinions on this as well. Specifically, how often they need to be adjusted once they are tuned - or is it a tune it right once, it's good to go with normal maintenance.

[Don DePontee]

I did the swap to stacks on FFR-2224 which I built for Boyd McMillan and never looked back. The stacks came from Wayne Presley (Very Cool Parts) along with a Red Line fuel management system. After the swap the small block 427W came alive with instant throttle response and better gas milage. I was so impressed with this system from Wayne (Very Cool Parts) that I bought it for the FFR I'm building for myself with the exception of the management system as I opted for the Electromotive Tec III which is a full engine management system for the ignition and fuel, this eliminates the distributor and uses a crank fired system.
Here are the before and after photos and as you can see in the after photo the Wow factor has been increased 10 fold.
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s173/CobraDon/FFR-2224/24%20Stack%20Injection%20Conversion/DSCN6597.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s173/CobraDon/FFR-2224/24%20Stack%20Injection%20Conversion/DSCN6983.jpg
Don

[riptide motorsport]

pricey but sure is pretty!!!!

[quicksand]

All the tuning is done on your laptop hooked up to a Redline (in most cases) fuel management computer...wayne will load a fuel map to get ya started....Once you dial it in your done

[astglenn]

Don: You build obscenely beautiful cars. Having you and Borden in the same neighborhood is painful. When you going to drag up to the office? Me and David been having too much fun.

So you found the system very easy to live with. That is what I needed to know. I will ping the Great One.

Thank you to all for the posts.

[aeickstaedt]

Call Wayne Pressley, very happy with stacks and red line engine managment on a car i built for a neighbor.

[RooRocks]

I have the system from VCP and while it looks great I cannot in my right mind suggest Wayne as a vendor. While others may find him vey helpful he was anything but for me. I have paid for items 6+ months ago and I still have not received them and when I PM Wayne about them he either doesn't respond or tells me they will be in soon. The last time I messaged him was over a month ago and he told me a couple days and now I can't even get him to respond to my messages. While I am not sure if it is all his fault or Redlines fault but he sent me directions for one system and I received a different one and when I contact him about it he is either very short or ignores my questions all together. Also the system is not a bolt on system, I had to have many pieces fabricated. I have kept quiet about my experience with Wayne but I just can't do it anymore.

[Tom Komline]

I have the VCP system with Redline Fuel Management. I don't have access to a dyno so I had to tune it by the "seat of the pants" method. It took a while to tune, but it runs fine and looks great.

[Lex]

I just cant see the $$$$$$$$$$$$

[David]

Glenn, lets talk... David

[astglenn]

I am also considering placing a 2nd powerjection 3 for the Dual Quad / but injected set up. I have a call into retrotek to see about the possibilities.

[Wayne Presley]

I am also considering placing a 2nd powerjection 3 for the Dual Quad / but injected set up. I have a call into retrotek to see about the possibilities.

You would just need the second throttle body with injectors and mini harness to hook into your PJ III injector leads.

[astglenn]

You would just need the second throttle body with injectors and mini harness to hook into your PJ III injector leads.

This would not be as cool as stacks, but pretty cool none the less. Have you run this combo yet Wayne? I wonder if they will fit on the F-28? There may be more modern IM's out there now. I still have a leisure suit in the closet. I tend to remain behind the curve a tad.

[Bob Cowan]

I've been running a stack system for 5-6 years. At first it was a real pain to tune. I struggled with it for a long time. I never went anywhere without the laptop, and then at nearly every stop I would adjust something - trying to get it the way I wanted it.

Finally, I found a shop near me with a dyno, and a tuner who knew my system. They had it for about 3 hours, and it was perfect. And I mean perfect. It is so smooth and easy to drive, you just can't believe it. It is a real joy to drive in any situation. I couldn't be happier.

It does limit my power a little bit. I'm making about 600hp or so. And that's street and track friendly power. The engine and heads have more power in them, I'm sure. But the individual runners and lack of a common plenum limit the power to about what I have now.

Head selection is critical. It is very easy to get too big with IR intakes. I tried a set of Brodix heads with 2.08 heads. I Immediatly lost bucket loads of power because the valves were bigger than the stacks, and I lost intake velocity. I went back to a 2.02 valve Dart head, and the power came right back.

You should also use a cam with a very wide LSA. Most cams use 110*. And that works. But there's a lot of overlap, and that causes reversion up through the TB. You'll see fuel staining of the velocity stack and inside the filter. I switched to a 114* LSA, and that resolved.

All EFI systems have two major systems: the mechanical parts (TB's, intake, filters, etc), and the computer. The mechanical parts are pretty easy to select, as most companies sell them as a set of matching parts. But, proper installation and adjustment is critical. All 4 TB's need to open and close at exactly the same rate. Exactly.

The computer selection is not as critical. Look for the features you want and would use. Some systems have controls for boost, second injecter sets, auto trans control, etc. If you're not going to use those features, don't pay the extra bux. Some computers also control ignition via a crank trigger. If your smog rules and budget allow it, do that (from a performance and tuning standpoint). Most of the good computers now are self tuning, with a wide band sensor. IMO, that's the way to go.

The important step in selecting the computer is finding a local dyno shop that you can trust. Talk to them about what systems they work with, and what systems they have trouble with. Let them provide you with a 2-3 suggestions. Then go back and research those systems and see what fits your needs and budget the best.

[Wayne Presley]

This would not be as cool as stacks, but pretty cool none the less. Have you run this combo yet Wayne? I wonder if they will fit on the F-28? There may be more modern IM's out there now. I still have a leisure suit in the closet. I tend to remain behind the curve a tad.

Edelbrock makes a dual quad manifold for $335, I have an email in for the pricing for the extra throttle body and injectors.

[Lex]

2 Powerjection III throttle body's won't fit on an Edelbrock dual quad manifold. Holleys wont even fit an Edelbrock manifold unless you mounted them sideways. The Blue Thunder intake that I run has the widest spacing but the throttle body can't be over 8 5/8" long. Small or big block the spacing for the carbs are the same. Holley's with a secondary metering block won't even work.

[Wayne Presley]

2 Powerjection III throttle body's won't fit on an Edelbrock dual quad manifold. Holleys wont even fit an Edelbrock manifold unless you mounted them sideways. The Blue Thunder intake that I run has the widest spacing but the throttle body can't be over 8 5/8" long. Small or big block the spacing for the carbs are the same. Holley's with a secondary metering block won't even work.


Good thing I'm a Blue Thunder dealer.

[astglenn]

Good thing I'm a Blue Thunder dealer.

Thanks for looking out for this! Lex has been super helpful. I ran the F-28 years ago. I just pulled a picture of it because of my early onset alzhimers, CRS syndrom. Sure enough. There are two AFB's.

Wayne: I can assume then that the Blue Thunder will clear the two 705 TB's?

[Someday I Suppose]

Dual Powerjection throttle bodys would be pretty trick for sure. :-) Wayne, as a dealer of Blue Thunder, anythought of putting it together as a complete kit?

[Wayne Presley]

Dual Powerjection throttle bodys would be pretty trick for sure. :-) Wayne, as a dealer of Blue Thunder, anythought of putting it together as a complete kit?

All I would need would be an order for one...You seem like you are volunteering :D

[Someday I Suppose]

All I would need would be an order for one...You seem like you are volunteering :D

Grins, nope resisting for now, but temptation for sure... I need to get on the road and driving first, then once I convince myself the edelbrock dual quad set-up isn't working... hmmmmm....

[efnfast]

Do you have any experience tuning them, or does a shop around you? If no, then I'd run away from them if you want top performance.

It's like ITBs - sure, they look cool, but you're going to loose a bucketload of power unless they're properly tuned, and not many people can do a quality tuning job.

[Wayne Presley]

Do you have any experience tuning them, or does a shop around you? If no, then I'd run away from them if you want top performance.

It's like ITBs - sure, they look cool, but you're going to loose a bucketload of power unless they're properly tuned, and not many people can do a quality tuning job.

I would tend to disagree, getting them to run on top is very easy and since the 50mm throttle bodies flow 419 CFM per runner they are not the restriction until you get over 650 FWHP. I've had a 306 make 360 RWHP, 331 make 407 RWHP and a 408 make 468 RWHP all with stacks.

[geoffav]

Do you have any experience tuning them, or does a shop around you? If no, then I'd run away from them if you want top performance.

It's like ITBs - sure, they look cool, but you're going to loose a bucketload of power unless they're properly tuned, and not many people can do a quality tuning job.

I've seen Wayne get them running perfect in short order when no other problems with the engine/car exist. Your advice in bold above is something I considered. I can be at VCP in 10 minutes so I have less concern about my tune than any other aspect of my hot rod. Time is my enemy recently and I wish this was not being typed from work. :mad:

[astglenn]

I am going to go the inexpensive route and go for the dual quad / PJ lll. I understand the system and have been running it for over a year now. For now, it will scratch the multi induction itch and should work pretty well. I'd rather have stacks, but cost is a little hard to choke down. No pun intended.

Retrotek is 6-8 weeks out for a throttle body. Unless Mr. Presley happens to have one kicking around the shop? Don't you use one a a paper weight to hold down the stack of spare 100's you keep on the desk?

[efnfast]

I would tend to disagree, getting them to run on top is very easy and since the 50mm throttle bodies flow 419 CFM per runner they are not the restriction until you get over 650 FWHP. I've had a 306 make 360 RWHP, 331 make 407 RWHP and a 408 make 468 RWHP all with stacks.

To be fair though, you have a lot of experience w/ them - for the average builder, tuning a single carb is tricky enough. ITBs and stacks are going to be a nightmare for the average guy going it alone (especially since some people still seem to think a/f info is over-rated and doing everything by sight/feel is the way to go, lol)

[Wayne Presley]

To be fair though, you have a lot of experience w/ them - for the average builder, tuning a single carb is tricky enough. ITBs and stacks are going to be a nightmare for the average guy going it alone (especially since some people still seem to think a/f info is over-rated and doing everything by sight/feel is the way to go, lol)

Ah but the average who buys their stacks from me gets the ECU preloaded with a tune that I've set up and tuned on a similar motor. I also am available for phone tech support and can also remote in to their computer to read the real time data.

[efnfast]

Ah but the average who buys their stacks from me gets the ECU preloaded with a tune that I've set up and tuned on a similar motor. I also am available for phone tech support and can also remote in to their computer to read the real time data.

Cool - but you may want to respond to post #9 in this thread - I don't think he likes you very much, lol

[astglenn]

No kidding. As a vendor, it likely makes sense to respond to that kind of negative publicity. It must be a misunderstanding of some type.

[letsgosteelers]

x2 agree....I noticed alot of responses but none to the one that seems to be NOT working as advertised

[astglenn]

IVAN Man O Steel! Whaaaaaasup?

[RooRocks]

Cool - but you may want to respond to post #9 in this thread - I don't think he likes you very much, lol

I like Wayne plenty, I think he is a very knowledgeable guy and a key part of this hobby. But that does not mean I have to like how my transaction went, whether it be Wayne's fault or Redlines. The issue I had was that the system was not as described or as easy to assemble as you are lead to believe. Now this could be because of the new mold Wayne told me about but I was told this after I already had the system. If you do get the system throw the directions away, they are useless. I don't know if this is Wayne's fault or Redlines but I had three sets of directions and all three sets gave conflicting ways to install and wire. When I contacted Wayne about it he informed me how to wire it and I did but after I couldn't get anything to run I contacted Redline and they told me what I just said, throw the directions away. They told me how to wire it correctly and said they have made changes and the directions were not accurate. My frustration came through support from Wayne, but since he was informing me how to wire it per the instructions maybe Wayne has not had dealt with the new system yet. The system is built and designed very well but the people at Redline have no business writing the directions. Again this could have been because I had a newer system because I had wires not even listed in manual and the manual had wires I didn't even have. There were other things I didn't appreciate that were changed and I was not notified about and Wayne's website had the old system which looks better IMO and not the new one which lead to my frustration as well. I was expecting one thing and then something drastically different showed up in my eyes.

The other issue is tuning, I have lots of money wasted at multiple shops trying to get it tunned right. I understand Wayne says it's easy but he has done it so many times he has the experience. Maybe Wayne forgot to pre-load my computer but I have already been to three tuners and I have lost out on my patience. If you are going to get the system put aside another $1,500 and ship your car to Wayne for proper tuning, it'll be cheaper in the long run.

It's business though, not personal at all. If you run a business you knwo you'll never make everyone happy, it's impossible. I may just be that one A**hole.

[Racer 28]

RooRocks, this isn't a good way to start out on this forum bashing a Vendors products and help. Wayne's has a pretty good record of helping anyone who contacts him whether they have his stack system or not. You should call him and work this out or work it out in email, this is between you and him and there's no need to put it on the forum. I'm sure he would be more then willing to help you out with what ever you need...

[RooRocks]

RooRocks, this isn't a good way to start out on this forum bashing a Vendors products and help. Wayne's has a pretty good record of helping anyone who contacts him whether they have his stack system or not. You should call him and work this out or work it out in email, this is between you and him and there's no need to put it on the forum. I'm sure he would be more then willing to help you out with what ever you need...

This is the exact reason I kept my mouth shut. One thing you learn fast on forums is to never say anything bad about someone that has been around longer or has more 'e-friends'. It's always good to know when forum members are so closed minded that they need to instantly go into defense mode instead of looking at the dealings from the other persons perspective. Forget the fact that I have been told on multiple occasions that something shipped when it didn't, was charged more than I was quoted and was given something different than what was advertised. No, lets bash the new guy who posted an honest opinion about his dealing with a vendor we all for some reason need to defend at all cost.

I already said I had nothing against Wayne and that I consider him a valuable source for this hobby and that some of my problems were not all his fault, some may have been Redlines. But to tell me to keep my mouth shut when you obviously have no idea, or willingness to learn, what happened speaks volumes about your mindset. Do you think I haven't emailed, PMed or called Wayne? Did you not catch the part where I said he wouldn't respond to all my questions or my PMs? Of course not, why would I think you did when the first thing you do is tell me to shut my mouth and go on the defense.

No one is perfect, I already established that. But I still have a very sour taste in my mouth. But it isn't like you would care or even try to understand.

[astglenn]

RooRocks:

How can we assist you to get your issues retired? If your goal is to get yourself up and running, lets work toward that end. I would really like to kill the negative content and work toward some positive goals here. If we can't, then I am going to ask a Mod to remove my entire thread. I will help you. Many will, not the least of which is likely Wayne.

[RooRocks]

Just venting here guys, it's nothing personal.

Issues are worked out as far as I am concerned. When I get some free time I am going to see if I can ship the car to Wayne since he truly is the best tuner for this system. I have read from others the power increase they got after having Wayne tune the system and they were phenomenal.

[geoffav]

This is the exact reason I kept my mouth shut. One thing you learn fast on forums is to never say anything bad about someone that has been around longer or has more 'e-friends'. It's always good to know when forum members are so closed minded that they need to instantly go into defense mode instead of looking at the dealings from the other persons perspective. Forget the fact that I have been told on multiple occasions that something shipped when it didn't, was charged more than I was quoted and was given something different than what was advertised. No, lets bash the new guy who posted an honest opinion about his dealing with a vendor we all for some reason need to defend at all cost.

I already said I had nothing against Wayne and that I consider him a valuable source for this hobby and that some of my problems were not all his fault, some may have been Redlines. But to tell me to keep my mouth shut when you obviously have no idea, or willingness to learn, what happened speaks volumes about your mindset. Do you think I haven't emailed, PMed or called Wayne? Did you not catch the part where I said he wouldn't respond to all my questions or my PMs? Of course not, why would I think you did when the first thing you do is tell me to shut my mouth and go on the defense.

No one is perfect, I already established that. But I still have a very sour taste in my mouth. But it isn't like you would care or even try to understand.

Any vendor can have a deal go bad for a variety of reasons. In this case you had the best chance for a good outcome because of the integrity of the vendor. Good luck to both sides but sometimes there won't be resolution that makes everyone happy. By comparison, I have always had a positive outcome with not just VCP but every other vendor which I have used. All of them serve the FF builder community and proved to be great vendors.

[Wayne Presley]

Just venting here guys, it's nothing personal.

Issues are worked out as far as I am concerned. When I get some free time I am going to see if I can ship the car to Wayne since he truly is the best tuner for this system. I have read from others the power increase they got after having Wayne tune the system and they were phenomenal.

It's cheaper for me to fly out than ship cars around, been 4 years since I've been to SoCal. Combine a trip in a day early for the Huntington Beach/Knotts show.

[geoffav]

RooRocks:

How can we assist you to get your issues retired? If your goal is to get yourself up and running, lets work toward that end. I would really like to kill the negative content and work toward some positive goals here. If we can't, then I am going to ask a Mod to remove my entire thread. I will help you. Many will, not the least of which is likely Wayne.

Bravo, count me in. I'm not sure how I could help but I'm ready. You never know when Wayne might be close enough to make a detour. He does travel much more than most tuners I know.

[RooRocks]

Any vendor can have a deal go bad for a variety of reasons. In this case you had the best chance for a good outcome because of the integrity of the vendor. Good luck to both sides but sometimes there won't be resolution that makes everyone happy. By comparison, I have always had a positive outcome with not just VCP but every other vendor which I have used. All of them serve the FF builder community and proved to be great vendors.

I completely understand that and hold nothing personal against Wayne. Things come up, things are forgotten and I am sure Wayne gets way more phone calls and messages everyday than he has time. Like I said, I may just be that one A**hole.

[RooRocks]

It's cheaper for me to fly out than ship cars around, been 4 years since I've been to SoCal. Combine a trip in a day early for the Huntington Beach/Knotts show.

I'd be more than happy to put you up and pay for your flights, I should be in town the weekend of that show.

[astglenn]

I have a house in Huntington that I will be at for the show as well. I will be there a week in advance. I am happy to assist in any way possible. Well we can drink and stagger two blocks to and from the beach. No problem!

[astglenn]

I'd be more than happy to put you up and pay for your flights, I should be in town the weekend of that show.

I salute your willingness to drop the gun and move forward. This is sensible and positive. Good deal.

[Racer 28]

Well said Astglenn...

[Erik W. Treves]

now that's a Very Cool solution!! Need somebody to help with tie down on the dyno ? :D

[geoffav]

now that's a Very Cool solution!! Need somebody to help with tie down on the dyno ? :D

What does that leave for me, keeping the beer cooler full. Well at least I'm qualified.

Plus another example of how to pimp the company name. haha


Oooops. edit

Plus another Very Cool example of how to pimp the company name. ;)

[astglenn]

What does that leave for me, keeping the beer cooler full. Well at least I'm qualified.

Plus another example of how to pimp the company name. haha


Oooops. edit

Plus another Very Cool example of how to pimp the company name. ;)

No! You and me keep the cooler empty. That is our part of this thing.

[geoffav]

No! You and me keep the cooler empty. That is our part of this thing.


Well, wait let me think??????? Yep, I'm qualified at that too. :cool:

[Wayne Presley]

Geez I go to lunch and check on my 93yo grandmother, log back on and we're having a party in sunny SoCal!

[Dave Smith]

I want to add my 10 cents to this discussion because I feel that this is one of those subjects that gets short air-time. First of all, I am reading professional communication here and there is no doubt that this forum is going to have to address subjects that don't always have an easy answer. Still, the charter of this forum is COMMUNITY first in all things. Wayne is a top notch guy and can handle his business on his own. I have some appreciation for Roo's position as my own experience with these systems (not Waynes tho) has been less than desirable.

These are complex systems and the trade-offs that people should know up front is that they don't always work perfectly, at least compared to something like an oem Fi set-up.. Still they do work better than webers (personal experience), and I dont know of anything that looks as COOL! The various systems have definitely come a long way since we used them. I think for show and cool, nothing beats Waynes stuff. If I was at the track or building a car that needed to be bulletproof and relaible, or if my tuning skills were, well my tuning skills (VERY limited) I might go with a less pricey set-up.

RooRocks, let me know if there is anything I can help with.
Wayne, Thanks for your candor here and support!

Dave Smith

[Dave Smith]

In the time it took me to hunt-n-peck at the keys, you guys solved the whole thing. HB show will be a blast and sounds like there's a roo-ster brother who will be driving a well-tuned engine soon.
Dave