My Monday on the Dyno From Hell

[oldguy668]

So, let's set the stage for this little tale of woe. I asked for recommendations for a dyno tuner to get my Coyote running right. There were a few issues that Ford said a tune would address, so I was anxious to get it done. I spoke to a few people on both forums and asked around town, and zeroed in on a shop about 25 miles from home. I made a date for 1PM on Monday, August 13th, and I arrived at 12:45. I waited 15 minutes before somebody decided to let me know that the dyno was down due to an electrical storm Saturday night. I never got an explanation for why no one could call me and tell me that so I wouldn't have wasted 3 hours traveling and waiting. They re-booked me for yesterday, again at 1 PM, and again, I arrived at 12:45. There was a car on the dyno when I got there, and the shop owner told me they were wrapping up and I was next. The guy whose car it was, however, had other plans. I guess he wasn't too pleased with the fact that his car got less HP after the tune than when he brought it in. That and the fact that it wouldn't idle and stunk like hell got him a little edgy, and he insisted they fix it before taking it off the dyno. Soooo, 3 1/2 hours later, they rolled me on and got started. The other guy is going back Saturday for another whack at it.


Anyway, they ordered the tune from SCT, uploaded it, and.....NO START! After my telling them at least 5 times that the ECU was NOT a production version, the ordered the tune for a stock 2010 5.0 Mustang. An hour later, SCT sent the proper file and they made one pull on the dyno at 391 RWHP :) . They then started screwing with it for another 2 hours, sometimes getting rid of the off-throttle stalling and sometimes getting rid of the gigantic flat spot at 3,000 RPM, but never both. At around 7PM, I was informed that "something had happened" and that the car was in "limp" mode, and they couldn't get the SCT tool to reconnect with the ECU. So, I now have a $30,000 brick that will run only at 1800 RPM, and not too well at that.


To top it off, the owner took off at 6PM and never came back, leaving his guys to flounder around on their own. I had to get a flatbed to come and get me home. To top it off, the second-in-command had the unmitigated gall to ask me if I could pay for the SCT tool ($375) immediately rather than when I came back for the rest of the job (fat friggin chance). I stumbled into the house at 9PM, so pissed I couldn't think straight.




I just sent an email to Ford Racing to see if I can get it reflashed, so we will await their response.

[David Hodgkins]

That SUCKS! Sorry for your troubles Joe! But hey, that's all part of the joy of the build...

..right?

Hang in there man.

:)

[bansheekev]

The SCT programmer should have the original tune stored in it shouldn't it?

[ClemsonS197]

The SCT programmer should have the original tune stored in it shouldn't it?

Just said the same thing on the other forum.

When you upload a new tune, the original is always stored on the programmer so you can also go back to square 1. That is unless, the jerkoffs figured out how to override that safety feature too.

I have an ECM from a 2012 production car (automatic) if you want it to monkey around with.

[Jonathan D]

Wow, I can almost feel my blood pressure go up reading this, hope things go better tomorrow

[oldguy668]

Ford is on the 3rd or 4th generation code for the Coyote ECU, so hopefully they'll reflash mine and I won't need an aftermarket tune.

[oldguy668]

Just said the same thing on the other forum.

When you upload a new tune, the original is always stored on the programmer so you can also go back to square 1. That is unless, the jerkoffs figured out how to override that safety feature too.

I have an ECM from a 2012 production car (automatic) if you want it to monkey around with.

That's the irritating part. They tried to convince me that there was no risk since the stock tune is still in the SCT and can be restored at any time. But, when the SCT tool reads "unknown vehicle" all the time and you can't get the stock tune back, the safety net disappears. A production ECU will be looking for all sorts of data that does not get produced in the Coyote (PATS, evap, 2nd pair of O2's, etc.), not to mention the return vs returnless fuel system. But, thanks for the offer.

[Jester]

Sorry to hear about the advantures

I don't beleive there that many areas that can cause such a fault/failure to occur. If you have not already done so, you may want to walk through and verify proper functionality of each of the following and confirm after each test that the problem has not been resolved (process of elimination):

Electrical:
Use an ODBC2 reader to confirm any faulure codes
Confirm proper wiring as per FFR installation instructions - Double check wiring / splices required for PCM etc trace all such wiring connections / splices - check each splice for proper contact
Double check all electrical connections to ECU and PCM and harnesses (unplug each and check for debris etc (filings etc can cause a short) re connect to re-establish proper contact)
Double check that proper grounds have been made to frame
O2 sensors functioning properly and installed properly and in the proper location. I read somewhere that if you alter the length of the O2 sensor wires, this would lead to problems?? I installed the O2 sensors without changing the length of the sensor wires
Mass air sensor - test and verify functioning properly - if you can exchange with someone and try again

Mechanical
Proper set-up of vapor lines and block-offs
Verify the calibration on your fuel pressure regulator?
No vapor lock in fuel system or restrictions in fuel lines?
Proper fitment/clearance of oil sump to oil pan
Proper cooling system set-up / hoses etc

If all of the above has been confirmed and functioning properly - the could be a faulty ECU??

Please keep us posted of the progress

I have started my coyote a number of times and let run for extended periods, and go-cart around the block - no such issues yet. Set-up very similar to FFR install guidelines.

Good Luck!

[oldguy668]

Sorry to hear about the advantures

I don't beleive there that many areas that can cause such a fault/failure to occur. If you have not already done so, you may want to walk through and verify proper functionality of each of the following and confirm after each test that the problem has not been resolved (process of elimination):

Electrical:
Use an ODBC2 reader to confirm any faulure codes
Confirm proper wiring as per FFR installation instructions - Double check wiring / splices required for PCM etc trace all such wiring connections / splices - check each splice for proper contact
Double check all electrical connections to ECU and PCM and harnesses (unplug each and check for debris etc (filings etc can cause a short) re connect to re-establish proper contact)
Double check that proper grounds have been made to frame
O2 sensors functioning properly and installed properly and in the proper location. I read somewhere that if you alter the length of the O2 sensor wires, this would lead to problems?? I installed the O2 sensors without changing the length of the sensor wires
Mass air sensor - test and verify functioning properly - if you can exchange with someone and try again

Mechanical
Proper set-up of vapor lines and block-offs
Verify the calibration on your fuel pressure regulator?
No vapor lock in fuel system or restrictions in fuel lines?
Proper fitment/clearance of oil sump to oil pan
Proper cooling system set-up / hoses etc

If all of the above has been confirmed and functioning properly - the could be a faulty ECU??

Please keep us posted of the progress

I have started my coyote a number of times and let run for extended periods, and go-cart around the block - no such issues yet. Set-up very similar to FFR install guidelines.

Good Luck!

Note that the car has 300 miles on it, the tech made 12 adjustments to the tune before the ECU and tuner lost contact. The tuner is now refusing to recognize the ECU, not the other way around. I pulled the battery for the night and we'll see what tomorrow's reboot does.

[vnmsss]

Following this closely, and looking forward to today's update.....Not that it helps with your frustrations from yesterday, but I feel confident that your original tune will be restored today......Coupe of questions.....What make of ECU are you using (sorry if this info is available somewhere, but I just don't know the answer), and if it's not a stock ECU, where did the intial tune in your ECU come from?

Best wishes!

Karen

[WIS89]

Joe-

So sorry to read about your troubles. Good luck today! I hope you get the tune right, and your dyno numbers knock it out of the park!!!

Regards,

Steve

[ClemsonS197]

Following this closely, and looking forward to today's update.....Not that it helps with your frustrations from yesterday, but I feel confident that your original tune will be restored today......Coupe of questions.....What make of ECU are you using (sorry if this info is available somewhere, but I just don't know the answer), and if it's not a stock ECU, where did the intial tune in your ECU come from?

Best wishes!

Karen

Karen,

He's using the ECU that is provided with the controls pack sold by Ford Racing. When Ford released the new 5.0L motor (aka - Coyote) they offered a stand lone controls pack since the motor is very technologically advanced using drive-by-wire and variable cams. The controls pack allows you remove the guess work out of the engine electronics. However, it comes with the massive stock air box used in the 2011+ Mustang GTs. There is zero room for that in our cars, so a conical filter system is used instead. This changes the airflow across the MAF sensor and if giving him problems. The Mustangs that use the Spanish Oak Processor (2005+ Mustangs) are very, very sensitive to airflow changes through the engine. With a change in air filter, and less restrictive exhaust, I think most, if not all, of us Coyote builders will need a dyno tune.

http://www.highflowfuel.com/images/F14396338.jpg

[oldguy668]

Clemson is exactly right. The ECU that comes with the engine is optimized for the stock air box and headers. Changing those is what triggers the need for the tune. Ford offered to reflash my ECU last year because there have been several code upgrades. I have a message in to them now to see if the offer is still open.

[dallas_]

And people say my webers are too complicated. :)

[vnmsss]

Thanks for the info on the ECU....Last year, when we were looking at building the Competition Coupes, we gave serious consideration to installing Coyote motors in the cars as the base for the class. After considerable discussion, and looking at the stage of development for the Coyote, and the associated costs to have spares and do all of the required dyno tuning, we made the conscious decision to stick with the 302-based (331CID) motor we ran in the previous car.....Would still love to build a Comp Coupe with a Coyote, and will be following your progress along the way....:>)) I know there will be bumps/hiccups along the way, but am encouraged that you're taking this path, and know in the end, you're gonna have an awesome car!!! Thanks again for your courage, and hang tough...It will all work out!!!

Karen

[skullandbones]

Sorry you're having so much trouble but when it is all over you will be an expert and most likely will get a lot of inquiries about your experiences with this project. Tell you the truth, I'm not really looking forward to it. It's sort of like learning a new language! See ya. WEK.

[oldguy668]

You think it's like a new language? How do you think I feel. I never saw a carburetor with a damn OBD2 port.

[Avalanche325]

I am sorry to hear that you had so much trouble.

They were not professional the first day. The second day they were busy screwing someone elses car up when you arrived. Reverse gear test time.

The good thing is that they didn't do something that caused you to burn a piston or blow a head off of the car.

[ipsale]

Joe,

Late last week my coyote saw the dyno as well. I went down to Dez Racing in Seekonk for the work. I can't tell you why you lost your tune but I did notice there was no mention of the speed sensor. In our set-ups the ECU has no ability to sense the fact that we are moving. My coyote just like everyone elses idled fine and went up and down through the rpm range great as long as I wasn't moving. As soon as I would get out on the road I had the stall condition, a terrible dead spot at 2,000 rpm, backfiring on deceleration under 2,000 rpm and general hard deceleration when you take your foot off the gas.

During my first trip to DEZ we tried to tune out the dead spot and the stall condition but couldn't. In fact we couldnt do any tuning beacause the ECU wasnt sensing speed. A call to Ford Racing and they provided the information we needed to get a speed sensor to put between the transmition and the 50 pin conector at the ECU (in pin 14). I went back to DEZ a second time and once that was installed and we calibrated the speed read out in the ECU using the dyno (it was about 3x actual speed when we started) we were good to go. The stall condition is gone, the dead spot is gone, it no longer backfires and the hard deceleration is better. The dyno confirmed 399 rwhp, 379 ft/# of touque and 149 mph rear wheel speed in 4th gear at 7000 rpm.

My plan is to go down to Dez one more time to tweak the tune to take out more of the hard deceleration.

I know this doesn't help your current ECU issues but maybe it is a starting point after you get them squared away.

Rob

[oldguy668]

That's very interesting info on the speed sensor. Ford is sending an upgraded ECU so I guess I should address that issue when i install it. Thanks

[oldguy668]

Rob, can you shed a little more light on the speed sensor details? The FFR Speedhut speedometer uses the available speed sensor mount in the transmission, so how did you go about getting a second speed sensor installed? How does it wire in? There are 2 50-pin connectors on the ECU, although only 1 is shown on the instruction sheet.

[ClemsonS197]

Rob, can you shed a little more light on the speed sensor details? The FFR Speedhut speedometer uses the available speed sensor mount in the transmission, so how did you go about getting a second speed sensor installed? How does it wire in? There are 2 50-pin connectors on the ECU, although only 1 is shown on the instruction sheet.

x2. I'm using an Autometer GPS speedo so my output wire on my T3650 are unused.

[Olli]

Joe,

If the signal from the speed sensor can't be shared between the speedo and the ECU for some reason you can send your speedo in to Speedhut and have it converted to GPS.

Olli

[oldguy668]

That's good to know, Olli, because I think that's what I might have to do. Ford has a patch for the no-speed-signal issue (that costs $200, BTW)

11395

The part number is M-4209-ADPT-AC, and I think it is what Rob used. I just don't know if the signal can be shared or if I have to dedicate the sensor to the ECU.

[Jester]

Thanks for this post Oldguy - I know other Coyote guys will be owe you one for trouble shooting this - you will be famous.

I checked with Factory Five this morning and asked about the requirement of a trans speed sensor to feed to the ECU for the Coyote and it was confirmed that the speed sensor wires coming off the trans are to be split with one set of wires to go to the speedo as per usual and the other set to feed the ECU (as per their Coyote - TKO set up). Now I need to determine where to connect the speed sensor wires into the ECU.

I will look into this when I get a chance this weekend to be sure the ECU gets the proper signal.

Thanks for sharing and keep us updated with your progress.

Good Luck!

[ClemsonS197]

Joe,

If the signal from the speed sensor can't be shared between the speedo and the ECU for some reason you can send your speedo in to Speedhut and have it converted to GPS.

Olli

And for anyone else reading, if you're using Autometer electronic gauges, the Autometer GPS will work without modification.


The part number is M-4209-ADPT-AC, and I think it is what Rob used. I just don't know if the signal can be shared or if I have to dedicate the sensor to the ECU.

Awesome. The special parts needed just keep coming. Post up when you find the where/how to connect it. I still don't have a body on so it will be a lot easier to do it now.

[Jester]

FFR indicated the speed sensor signal off the TKO600 in their set up is split and and is shared with both the speedo and ECU

[bansheekev]

So based on your feedback from Factory Five, are they saying to simply wire the speedo sensor from the transmission to both the speedo and the ECU (i.e. put both feeds on the same wires)? There was previous questions about needing seperate speed sensors for the speedo and ECU. If I read this correct that is not needed.

Please enlighten me, my head is spinning...

Thanks
Kevin


Thanks for this post Oldguy - I know other Coyote guys will be owe you one for trouble shooting this - you will be famous.

I checked with Factory Five this morning and asked about the requirement of a trans speed sensor to feed to the ECU for the Coyote and it was confirmed that the speed sensor wires coming off the trans are to be split with one set of wires to go to the speedo as per usual and the other set to feed the ECU (as per their Coyote - TKO set up). Now I need to determine where to connect the speed sensor wires into the ECU.

I will look into this when I get a chance this weekend to be sure the ECU gets the proper signal.

Thanks for sharing and keep us updated with your progress.

Good Luck!

[oldguy668]

Ford says that the adapter I listed above is required to translate the signal from the transmission output to a form the ECU will understand. It is not a matter of hooking the trans output to the ECU.

[bansheekev]

Add another item to the shopping list for the Coyote. List keeps getting bigger... No mention of it from FFR. I wonder what they did on their Roadster and 33? Live with the bad tune? Or, maybe Ford Racing came in and did it for them and nobody ever realized what they did? Who knows...


Ford says that the adapter I listed above is required to translate the signal from the transmission output to a form the ECU will understand. It is not a matter of hooking the trans output to the ECU.

[JeepFlyer]

And for anyone else reading, if you're using Autometer electronic gauges, the Autometer GPS will work without modification.

Can you elaborate on what you mean? Are you saying you can just run the wire from your trans to your ECU because the GPS speedo won't need it? I talked to Jim about the VSS about 3 weeks ago when I toured the factory and he said the new ECU was programmed not to need a speedo input, but I don't think he knew that from experience, more just heresay and rumors. He told me they had problems when they fit the coyote in theirs, and that was later fixed with a new/reprogrammed ECU upgrade.

[oldguy668]

Okay, here's what we have so far. Jesper has confirmed that the Ford Speed Dial Adapter M-4209-ADPT-AC is required to interface the transmission pulse generator to the ECU 50-pin connector (pins 14 and 38) The instructions from Ford (Jesper assisted in writing the instructions) are on my desk, but they are NOT on Ford's website. I'll post them as soon as I figure out how to post a PDF.

The net result is that the adapter ($135-$200, shop around) tells the ECU that the car is moving and it should cure the off-throttle stalling that we are all experiencing. However, Ford says that the backfiring and 2500 RPM flat spot (3-5 seconds when nothing happens) can only be addressed with a recalibration, due to the different air intakes and exhausts we are using. The speed adapter CAN be wired in parallel with the speedometer so one pulse generator takes car of both functions.

I have received a call from the tuner who "bricked" my ECU and, of course, he is blaming SCT. He suggested that I drive to the shop, get the tuner, load the stock tune back into my car, then take it up to finish the job. I told him I'd get back to him in a couple of days.:mad:

Finally, I'm going to ask Dave Hodgkins to set up a Coyote engine forum so we can all share part numbers and tune data until we get all the bugs out.

[ClemsonS197]

Can you elaborate on what you mean? Are you saying you can just run the wire from your trans to your ECU because the GPS speedo won't need it? I talked to Jim about the VSS about 3 weeks ago when I toured the factory and he said the new ECU was programmed not to need a speedo input, but I don't think he knew that from experience, more just heresay and rumors. He told me they had problems when they fit the coyote in theirs, and that was later fixed with a new/reprogrammed ECU upgrade.

Not sure if you quoted the right person, but....

If you're running an Autometer electronic speedometer and you want an easy, accurate speedo, you can buy the Autometer GPS module and connect it directly to your electronic speedo and get accurate MPH. It does not require an input from the trans.

However, it seems that you'll be doing some work on the trans wiring regardless because the Coyote ECU requires something to tell it, it's moving.

[oldguy668]

Jesper and Mad Dog have sent the link to the Coyote Speed Dial Adapter. Get a copy here:

http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Coyote-Speed-Dial-Instructions1.pdf

[Jester]

Thx for this - this is a big help!

Sorry the FFR tech provided the incorrect info earlier re my post.

Thx

[ipsale]

Joe,

It seems that while I was making beer today you were able to get all the information you needed. The speed sensor made all the difference. You might want to try Dez - I know its a bit of a drive for you (as it was for me) but they treated me very well and they have some experience with the coyote. Good luck.

Rob

[oldguy668]

Joe,

It seems that while I was making beer today you were able to get all the information you needed. The speed sensor made all the difference. You might want to try Dez - I know its a bit of a drive for you (as it was for me) but they treated me very well and they have some experience with the coyote. Good luck.

Rob

Rob, I couldn't get all the info. Where did you get the two required pins...they apparently do not come with the adapter.

[riptide motorsport]

Wow...I'm confused! hope it all gets straightened out soon......

[oldguy668]

Here's another article on the idling issue from Auburn Customs.

http://www.auburncustoms.com/coyote-swap-idle-issue-fix/

[Hotrodbob]

Im sorry to see the woes that one must deal with to get it running right and that rip off that the 'tuners"make.

It is largely why I chose to go for a carbureted 347 so I would not have to get ripped off to get it set.

[oldguy668]

Let's not paint all the tuners with the same brush. I think the shop I visited is getting sloppy and is now squandering a great reputation.

[ipsale]

Hi Joe,

When Dez ordered the sensor from Ford Racing he also ordered some pins from them.

Rob

[oldguy668]

Yes, they will give you the pins until they run out. I think they are coming with my reflashed ECU so I'll use them to match up the correct part number at TYCO. I'll get a hundred or so for all the "brothers" here that might need them.

[65 Cobra Dude]

Joe,

I'll take a pair if you get them and thanks for figuring this out and posting. Saved me oodles of time.

Henry

[Someday I Suppose]

Damn Joe, breaking new ground sure is fun!!! Hope you get it all straightened out

_Scott

[oldguy668]

Update to the ECU fiasco. Ford sent me a new one and i sent them the old one. They were as interested in an autopsy as I was in getting my car running. The new ECU is about 30 months newer than what I had, and the engine seems to be exhibiting NONE of the driveability issues that showed up with the old one. I put 50 miles on it today and I'll reserve final judgement until I get 100 more miles on it.

[ClemsonS197]

That's just w/ the ECU swap and no speed sensor?

[Mustang Man]

Awesome news Joe! Glad to hear the revised PCM flash is working out of the box for you! I'd also be interested to hear what the FRPP tuners have to say about what went wrong with the flash of the original PCM.

Mark

[ipsale]

Hey Joe, that's great news! I know you still have some miles to put on it but did your swap also eliminate the "hard" deceleration? Can't wait to hear.

Rob

[ClemsonS197]

Update to the ECU fiasco. Ford sent me a new one and i sent them the old one. They were as interested in an autopsy as I was in getting my car running. The new ECU is about 30 months newer than what I had, and the engine seems to be exhibiting NONE of the driveability issues that showed up with the old one. I put 50 miles on it today and I'll reserve final judgement until I get 100 more miles on it.


Been 2 weeks, any update?

[oldguy668]

I haven't been able to take a long ride yet, but I'm trying to get a 100 miler in this week. The stalling might be an issue, but that hard wall at 2500 RPM seems to be a non-issue right now.