Possible to build an MK4 for 25k or less?

[warrenjflick]

My grandfather, my uncle, and I are thinking about getting a MK4 kit(base kit + donor car). I was wondering if its possible to build one for 25k or less. Also what tools are necessary to build the MK4. Some info on us: My grand father used to be a mechanic, my uncle loves D.I.Y., and I have no building experience. One last thing how reliable are these kits, I realize it varies from car to car, but on average how often do you have to replace parts.

PS This is going to be my first car.

Thanks,
Warren

[MK4]

Lots of question grasshoper!!

First thing first. You customise the kit to your liking. So you are in control of how much you spend. The base kit is 13 000$ to that you need to add all the driving gears ( donor or not) this will play big Time in your final budget. The 2 biggest decision that Will impact the final price are the choice of running gears and the paint. As far has tooling goes, you CAN build this with basic mechanics tools, there are no real need to invest a ton of $ in tooling. As for your last question, reliability it varies a lot. It depends of your attention to details, of the quality of the running gear and how you use (or abuse) the car.

Its a great building experience, the pride and joy of the finish product is Nice!

Lots to think about!

Cheers

Mk4

[Jeff Kleiner]

I think you can do it for $25K if you use a good later 4.6 donor that will only require replacement of wear items such as brakes, clutch, etc., stick tight to the donor build recipe, shop wisely and plan to do the body & paint yourself or have a very good friend in the paint business who owes you a big favor! A well done donor build can be every bit as reliable as the Mustang that spawned it.

Good luck,
Jeff

[Racer 28]

If you can find a started build for sale for a good price, it will be much easier to stay under that 25K number.

[Cobradavid]

PS This is going to be my first car.


Does this mean you are a new driver? If that's the case, make sure you (and your parents) know what you are getting into. Yes, it is an awesome looking car. But the roadster is a high power-to-weight ratio car with a short wheelbase. The car can quickly get out of hand. Basically, it is a street legal race car. Is that the appropriate first car for a new driver? It can be, but most of the time it isn't.

Regardless, here's a very good deal on a partially built kit:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?7157-Mark-IV-Base-kit-partially-started

David

[riptide motorsport]

abo****ly for so reason it wont let me spell abso-lut-ly

[warrenjflick]

Thanks for all the responses guy it's been a great help. Also if I use the 4.6L engine isn't the foot box going to be smaller?

[warrenjflick]

Does this mean you are a new driver? If that's the case, make sure you (and your parents) know what you are getting into. Yes, it is an awesome looking car. But the roadster is a high power-to-weight ratio car with a short wheelbase. The car can quickly get out of hand. Basically, it is a street legal race car. Is that the appropriate first car for a new driver? It can be, but most of the time it isn't.

Regardless, here's a very good deal on a partially built kit:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?7157-Mark-IV-Base-kit-partially-started

David

Yes this does mean I'm a new driver but I'm taking the BMW Teen Driving course which involves learning about control and defensive driving.

Thanks for your concern.

[Dan Babb]

If you are under 25, make sure you can fet insurance before ou buy one. It may be hard to get auto insurance for a young driver.

If you do paint and bodywork yourself, you can be close to your budget target.

[MK4]

I used thé 4,6 and footbox is correct. It is à huge engine, and not the pretiest! But is is reliable starts up all the Time on mater the humidity level:p

Mk4

[emac]

If this is your first car....I guess it means it may be your only car. I would think the Roadster would be a tough only car, especially doing a budget build. Wipers, heater, top, etc add to the cost. I guess a lot of staying in budget would depend on the donor cost.

[lbperry]

The paint tends to be the big budget killer. Since I didn't feel I could afford a professional paint job I took three autobody courses at the local community college. I learned to do all the prep and the instructor got into the project enough that he laid down the base/clear for me. Of course since I'm over 60 I didn't have to pay any tuition, just a few fees and the cost of materials. Maybe you can talk your grandad into going back to school.
Doing it with your grandad and uncle will make it a great family project that you all can be proud of for the rest of your life.
Good Luck,

[WIS89]

Warren-

Congratulations on considering what may be the greatest fun, and best experience you may ever have with your family! I cannot imagine how exciting this will be for each of you!!

I do believe that you can meet your budget objective with some of the caveats mentioned above. A good donor will be very important; this is where you can leverage your Granddad's experience and contacts. I am sure he must still retain some contacts that can put you on the trail of some options worth considering. I also think his experience will allow you all to rebuild rather than acquire new, countless parts you will need.

Additionally, paint and body work is always a huge budget item. However, there are ways around this as well, some of which are mentioned above. There is no reason why you all couldn't take some body work and paint classes at the local community college, as mentioned above.

Also, I would give serious consideration to one or more of you attending the Build School in Michigan. I think this will allow you to seriously consider whether or not you have the ability to build YOUR car under or at your price point. The money spent here would more than pay for itself as you identify areas where cost savings can be met. I urge you to consider this.

As mentioned above, you will need to seriously look into insurance. This is going to be a significant matter for you if I have assumed your age correctly. Even if the car is registered to an adult with you listed as a driver will still be a financial consideration. There may be some unacceptable provisions placed upon you.

As far as being your only car, take a look at a hard top, and an HVAC system with defrost, and wipers. The top won't be inexpensive, but I drove an MGB for years with a hardtop in winter with no issues. However, you WILL need something covering you and your noggin, and any potential young lady (or many young ladies) who chooses to join you in your ridiculously awesome car!!

I think I have bored you enough with my thoughts! I wish you luck and hope you all decide to take this journey together. I do not believe you won't regret it. In fact, I think you will likely create memories that you will carry with you the rest of your life!! All my best in your decision, and your build!!

Regards,

Steve

[dallas_]

As mentioned above, you will need to seriously look into insurance. This is going to be a significant matter for you if I have assumed your age correctly. Even if the car is registered to an adult with you listed as a driver will still be a financial consideration. There may be some unacceptable provisions placed upon you.


The budget will be a challenge, but can be done.

x3 on insurance. My sons and I built our car but I was unable to find insurance that would allow them to drive it until they reached 25. They are seriously bummed.

[warrenjflick]

Thanks for tips. Sadly though Michigan is really far away ( live in Atlanta, GA) so that would be really expensive. And yes I have considered the hard top and I will be buying that option. And do the donor mustangs have HVAC in them? And does factory five sell kits to install wipers? Thanks especially for the tip on the insurance that could be a deciding factor but I'm sure money can solve that problem. I do have a summer job though I earn about 500 bucks a week there so that could help with any extra expenses. Again thanks for all your responses. I got about 1k saved for tools because at my house all we have are screwdrivers and hammers, but my grandfather's garage is cavernous and completely chocked full of tools and parts, most of them ford parts. To quote him "Ain't notin but a Ford". He also has an old Model T in the back but nobody gets to go near it, partly because there's some much crap in the way. However he lives about 4 hours away. I also recently bought the manual on the website just to see what I was getting into and found some helpful information.

PS My house, my uncle's house, and my grandfather's house are all at the top of really step hills you think we'll be able to get the frame and stuff. In other words can a couple people lift the kit up the hill.

Thanks,
Warren

[jimgood]

PS My house, my uncle's house, and my grandfather's house are all at the top of really step hills you think we'll be able to get the frame and stuff. In other words can a couple people lift the kit up the hill.

Thanks,
Warren
If you're concerned about the delivery truck not being able to get into the driveway(s), rent a flatbed trailer. I think 12' will be enough but others can confirm. You can back it right up to the delivery truck, offload everything then back it up the driveway.

You might even be able to just use a pickup truck. If you put a couple of 4 x 4 across the bed rails, the frame can rest on that. Just be sure to strap it down so I can't slide in any direction.

Either way, you're still going to need people to help lift the frame off the truck/trailer.

[tirod]

Kit = 13,000
Donor = 3,000
Paint = 150

You can't control the price of the kit much, it is what it is. The donor is everything after that - pick it carefully for the best combination of engine, transmission, and rear end. Keeping it under 25K means using mostly donor parts, but it doesn't have to be Mustang - a Lincoln, T-bird, even Explorer could be used, or parts of all three. Getting it in one donor is cheaper, tho.

Paint is subject of some discussion, especially when vendors and professionals see pricing far below their costs for sandpaper alone. The issue in a nutshell is preparation - if you do the labor, you save $3-5k. The hazard is that it might look like you did the labor. The best preventative is to remember whatever you do, the paint is only a top coat - right or wrong, whatever is underneath will still be seen. And the major hazard people have in prep is allowing their fingers to touch sandpaper without a pad or block in between. Since we can't cut them off, we have to shield the bodywork from getting fingers messing it up. Never let your fingers be the pad - use something in between.

Paint itself is the next major expense, at $3-500 a gallon, it's not cheap, and then add that up to 40% of it is just blown into the air. I'm so cheap the idea of $250 of paint never hitting the bodywork makes me cringe. The process we use is largely a micro version of painting en masse - guns, airlines, etc are all set up to do hundreds of jobs, and the expenses of the equipment is significant - $800 for a compressor and tank large enough to power a sander or gun, the equipment, lines, tools, and guns themselves are minimum $250 -$800 again - at the cheap HF prices. That's another $1600 for just one job done at home. That's the price of a pallet motor, power adder, or really serious brakes - just for what, metallic tints in sunlight? Despite what you hear, stripes do not make you actually go 10mph faster.

You don't have to paint a fiberglass body that way - it wasn't common practice until paint guns became the standard, and other large fiberglass projects aren't, either. Search is your friend, a bit of googling will turn up lots of alternative info. Just remember, no matter how the paint is applied, the best looking jobs are sanded between coats. And the least cash intensive method of painting is, too. It's the institutional demand to spray paint that causes most of the expense, in high overhead to apply smooth coats in the least amount of time. It's all about eliminating sanding as a labor expense. Sand it. It will save you thousands.

A few years back, there was a magazine article on testing three roadsters built by technical colleges and the costs were outlined. They all came in under $25,000, some far less. If I remember correctly, it came down to two cars being nearly dead even across the board, one school used a power adder, the other installed serious aftermarket brakes. That meant one had superior dragstrip performance, but the other could road handle and dive much deeper into the corners.

Add both, and it still will cost less than the car show trailer queens lined up on Main Street. The originals didn't even race with aluminum valve covers. Think about it.

[ClemsonS197]

Thanks especially for the tip on the insurance that could be a deciding factor but I'm sure money can solve that problem.

Money will likely not solve that problem. Much like renting a car. Only age can solve the problem.

Also, I sent you a PM if you're interested in stopping by.

[MPTech]

If you want to stay on a 25k budget, build by the book and don't be tempted by the upgrades and mods (ask me how I know).
The base kit / donor is a good economical way to build, if you stick to it.
Read as much as you can here and on the other site, but be aware of your goals and budget. There are some upgrades that are free / inexpensive, as part of the donor build (ie: Power Steering / Power Brakes) that are highly recommended).

Create a Build Plan so you have a roadmap. Here's mine. And Good Luck with your build!
MPTech Build Plan (http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/264052-mptech-build-plan-revision-9-counting.html)

[WIS89]

Warren-

Mark (MPTech) has been very generous in sharing his build plan with folks in the past. I feel comfortable in suggesting that if you PM him, he will likely be happy to share his plan with you in a Word or Excel document format. I have used his plan as a basis for my own build plan, although I am farther away than you in my actual build! By the way Mark, any pics of your build?

Earlier you asked about getting up a steep hill to your various houses where you may build. I saw some suggestions above, and I just want to share my thoughts on a trailer. It is easy to load/unload, and strap everything down. you can borrow one, or rent one cheaply from U-Haul and others. I feel strongly that this is the best option.

I also wanted to point you to a build resource that you may want to consider as you move forward. I know you said you bought the build manual, which I think is awesome, but take a look here: http://mk4build.com/. Another terrific resource to give you some ideas. Likewise a father/son duo recently finished a build book that does a really good job of walking you through the build (their build). The book is titled "How to Build Cobra Kit Cars + Buying Used" by author D. Brian Smith (no relation to Dave that I know of). I bought the book recently from Amazon, and it is reasonably priced, and a very nicely laid out and organized book with lots of pictures (good for me!!) . It is another modestly priced resource you can utilize for your build. Also, I believe that Brian frequents the forum, and might be able to address any questions you may have.

I also wanted to share a thought or two about upgrades and modifications. Take a look around the countless builds and threads on the forum concerning upgrades and mods. You will see countless ideas. Some of them may resonate with you, while others you may not see anything you like. If you plan ahead on these items, you can make good choices budget-wise, and help you from straying too far financially. You WILL make changes as you build. However, the more things you do upfront, the better prepared you will be as you build.

Again, good luck moving forward!! I wish you great success, and I hope you are able to enjoy the experience you will have with your family as you build this awesome beast!!

Regards,

Steve

[MPTech]

Thanks for the kind words Steve :cool:
Warren, PM me your email address if you want a Word version, I'd be more than happy to share it with you.
I think the plan forces you to sit down, make decisions, and document what your goal is. Will that change as you continue to design? ABSOLUTELY. Will it change as you build? PROBABLY. And will it change after you're done? Let's hope so, we're never DONE.

Here's some of my latest activities:
Finished installing my Mustang switches (waiting on a bezel nut for the Wiper switch) and Breeze indicators (installed my turn signals and high beam indicators last night). My dash layout is almost complete, now I need to finish my wiring. :rolleyes:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a78/MPTech/P8190013.jpg

Last week's project:
Built a fan shroud with Rich GRSC's help and guidance. Fab'd a lower radiator mount and installed my radiator and hoses (didn't get a picture of the hoses yet).

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a78/MPTech/P8110017.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a78/MPTech/P8110008.jpg

[Jeff Kleiner]

...Paint = 150...




Do tell. I mean in plain, simple english. I read the 5 paragraphs that you followed that statement with but never did find anything detailing exactly how you propose accomplishing that. I'm quite curious...

Jeff

[dallas_]

Do tell. I mean in plain, simple english. I'm quite curious...


x2. I'm guessing roll on Rustoleum. But I don't know how you get the bodywork in any kind of shape for paint for those dollars. I'm all ears.

[MPTech]

Walmart $3.77


11384 x 40

:cool:

(I thought the same thing when I read it. maybe $1,500 ???)

[warrenjflick]

Again guys thanks for all the great help I cannot thank you enough. I have seen many of you mention insurance so this may be all for not depending what the people at State Farm™ say. I hope that they'll insure me so I don't have to get some big old S.U.V. as my first car but that may be the situation.

Thanks,
Warren

[MPTech]

I think the insurance is going to be a deal-breaker.

I know my 24 year-old son is none too happy about it either.
Mine's not driveable yet, but I plan it to be before he turns 25.

[warrenjflick]

Guys thanks for all of the great help and suggestions, but sadly I will not be able to get insured. Therefore I can't do the build, so bummer.

Thanks,
Warren

[WIS89]

Warren-

I am so sorry!! However, a dream delayed isn't the worst thing that can happen. If you want it bad enough, and the money is available, you can still make it happen. I know it's a long time to wait, but I will tell you that many of us here have waited longer; I have!!

So, start your build plan, look at as many examples of roadsters as you can so you can add to your plan as time goes on, add or subtract modifications, etc. By the time you are ready, you will have a great plan together, and the pent-up excitement to see you through the build.

Best of luck to you as you go forward, and I hope you can make your dream a reality.

Regards,

Steve

[Sapper 3]

Warren,
Don't give up on a dream! I planned my build for 13years. When it came time to execute I had a rolling chassis in 2 months, 1st start in 3 months and an unpainted, but licensed, tagged and safety inspected dream come true in 8 months. Hang in there, save your money and make a plan.

[neilmathieu]

I agree with you, emac. I believe that it is very « optimist » to build under 35K. There are so many last minutes mandatory items to add for running full legal.

[tcarlson]

Maybe you could buy a running donor and use it for a little while before building. Make sure to show the insurance folks you are a responsible driver, by keeping your DMV record clean. Another thing to try might be a family policy. Insurance for under 25 males is pretty tough. Start calling every company you can find, and I'm sure you'll be able to find one. Another thought ... maybe you can go through a defensive driving school to show the insurance carrier you are a responsible driver. And then take a road course one for even more fun! When you really want to hang it all out, hit the race track with all the safety equipment nearby.

One thing that stuck in my mind is the scene in Back to the Furture 3, when Marty is being called a "chicken"... There is a good idea there. Basically what I'm saying is be safe and have as much fun as you can. :)

Here's the link to the YouTube video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd_b-ecraF8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

T