818 to 918

[Rockraven]

What if a small company offered a comprehensive body kit in gelcoat, including lights, glass, vents, trim and hardware, based on the $800,000 Porsche 918? What would you pay for it over and above the $9995 818 kit? $8000? $10,000? Essentially, we're talking about a finished car that looks very much like the pictures for around $25,000. Interested in the feedback.


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[riptide motorsport]

Depends on alot of things........foremost quality.

[Rockraven]

Of course. Assume the best quality possible with a gelcoat body, DOT glass and lights (assuming there's aftermarket light units that are very close) and hardware.

[GUNS]

No. I don't want to look a like car, I personally think it's kind of cheap. I get it if it's a replica of an older design, but not a new design. I much preferer a unique design than a knock off.

[Twinspool]

As Ständer-inducing as the 918 is, it's a Porsche and should remain as such. Let Der Schenckmeister practice his craft in his inimitably American fashion and enjoy it.

Porsche will be copying Factory five in another few years IMHO. At a minimum the P-car board of directors will have a come-to-Jesus meeting about why all the smartest, best looking, most talented drivers are driving "zees verflucht kit-autos!"

[Rockraven]

No. I don't want to look a like car, I personally think it's kind of cheap. I get it if it's a replica of an older design, but not a new design. I much preferer a unique design than a knock off.

I understand what you're saying, and I agree if I was talking about a Lambo, Ferrari or 911 knock off. But this is a car that most will never see outside of pictures, and it wouldn't be an exact replica anyways... just the look, which many people seem to like.

[jkrueger]

That is a nice looking car. Since I don't have $800K to buy one I'd buy a good quality kit.

[StatGSR]

If I wanted a fake car I would have a lambo fiero already....

[Xusia]

I think the 918 is awesome looking, and would love to drive something that looked like it. I also have no issues with a high quality reproduction of a newer car.

All that said, one of the reasons - though not the only one - I'm interested in the 818 is price. Another $8k on top would simply exceed my budget. Also weighing in for me is the impracticality of replacing a perfectly good body provided with the kit by FFR. That's a waste of money; money I don't have to waste.

So the bottom line is that if FFR provided a body option that looked like the 918, I'd definitely consider it, but I wouldn't consider spending an additional $8k on it over and above the kit price. And if your next question is "how much would I spend," the answer is probably not more than $2k. But I don't believe you could deliver a high quality body kit for that price and make any money at it, so it's kinda a no-win situation (with someone like me anyway). :(

[skullandbones]

Here is another situation that FFR would stay away from like the plague. FFR has had success with the roadster and coupe but fought many legal battles. I think that's why they stayed away from the GT40 replica (GTM instead). The 818 is another example of the new direction for FFR. There were no issues with replicating a 33 Ford, either. So it is very unlikely you will see a replica of a car that is in production for the above reasons. WEK.

[Mechie3]

For $2k...maybe. I do like the look of it, but I'd also feel like a scammer/cheat trying to (if not intentionally) make people think I own an $800k car. For double the cost of the kit? No thanks.

[Rockraven]

Here is another situation that FFR would stay away from like the plague. FFR has had success with the roadster and coupe but fought many legal battles. I think that's why they stayed away from the GT40 replica (GTM instead). The 818 is another example of the new direction for FFR. There were no issues with replicating a 33 Ford, either. So it is very unlikely you will see a replica of a car that is in production for the above reasons. WEK.

Agree 100%, and Dave said something about it to this effect. However, a 3rd party body supplier removes this headache from FFR.

[Rockraven]

For $2k...maybe. I do like the look of it, but I'd also feel like a scammer/cheat trying to (if not intentionally) make people think I own an $800k car. For double the cost of the kit? No thanks.

Funny... most people don't have that hangup with a $600,000 Shelby Cobra or $4 million Shelby Daytona.

[Zoolander428]

I would be interested in a more detailed/coupe type body, however as others stated I wouldn't want it to be a copy of another vehicle. An original-ish design with the same or better build quality that FFR will be putting out, and I'd consider it.

Another big IF - is we still haven't seen the final design/car & options. I can't really say I'd be interested in alternative designs until I see the final, original product.

[Niburu]

Funny... most people don't have that hangup with a $600,000 Shelby Cobra or $4 million Shelby Daytona.

most well versed car people are going to automatically assume it's a kit when you see one of those
and when you roll up at an autocross or a road course event you'll still get nods of approval
roll up in a 918 wannabe and I doubt the reaction will be ovrewhelmingly positive

[Jeff Kleiner]

...roll up in a 918 wannabe and I doubt the reaction will be ovrewhelmingly positive

Good chance that many of the uninformed (i.e.; 99.8% of the general population) will ask what year Fiero you started with.

Jeff

[Someday I Suppose]

It removes the headache from FFR and puts in on the shoulders of the 3rd Party Body Supplier. I am guessing it would take Porche about a week to take care of a situation like that.
Agree 100%, and Dave said something about it to this effect. However, a 3rd party body supplier removes this headache from FFR.

[carbon fiber]

imho, it would be better as an original design than an outright copy of something else. that being said, it could still contain traits from other vehicles incorparated into the styling. one of the major problems with the 918 replica would be the interior. the 918 interior is brilliant, and with lots of exposed carbon fiber. i know we were talking about exterior, but eventually you gotta look inside.

[Xusia]

I doubt the reaction will be ovrewhelmingly positive

I gave up caring what others think years ago. This car is for ME.

[PhyrraM]

Funny... most people don't have that hangup with a $600,000 Shelby Cobra or $4 million Shelby Daytona.

Whn folks see a Cobra or Daytona replica, they already know it's a replica. They already accept it as such. They 'judge' the car on it's other merits, not that it's simle a replica of something expensive. The owner/driver knows they know and doesn't try to pass it off as real. The replica Shelby is the norm, and has been for a very long time.

Virtually every other replica is still considered a cheap copy.

In hindsight, it's really amazing what the repli-Cobra industry has achieved. In part because of FFRs take on the industry, and progressing it forward.

[Rockraven]

Interesting feedback, and appreciated. What about Vman's body as designed by him? Again assuming a top quality product, what's it worth over and above the 818 kit price?

[Rockraven]

I gave up caring what others think years ago. This car is for ME.

My attitude exactly.

[metalmaker12]

Once again I like what FFR has so far, sticking with them 100% you gotta trust them more

[LS1RX7owen]

I'd bet there are plenty of people who would jump on that car at that price.
if you made sure it was fast as hell then you could be 100% sure it would sell.
Just like the Hennessey Venom took the Elise dial up to 11, you could do the same here with a nicely turbo'd 818 under a 918's skin.

go for it.
How many would you need to sell to make money? a dozen? 2 dozen? 100 total? I'd be curious.

[Gus]

The design of the 918 amazing, I would probably pay 5k$ for it considering FFR coupe version with power windows might be an extra 1-3k$. The only problem I see is having a hard time convincing myself I'm not a wanabe, à la Fiero-Lambo, driving around this thing...

[oldguy668]

What makes you think that a third party supplier is less likely to get sued? All of the high end manufacturers defend their "trade-dress" like a first-born child. No reputable company is going to intentionally get into an expensive pissing contest with Porsche or Ferrari or any of the others. FFR won their suits because they were able to show that Shelby copied the shape from AC and AC did not defend their rights.

[BipDBo]

It wouldn't work.
(1) The 918 has different proportions than the 818. The 818 has a similar height, but much smaller footprint.
918 818
wheelbase 104" 95"
width 76" 67.5" at front wheels
height 43" 45" approximately, at roll bar
One of the entries, which was very popular, was closely based on the 918, but when overlaid on the template, it was revealed that the driver would need to be an Oompa Loompa. Much of the dissapointment came from people expecting supercar looks on a car that simply does not have supercar proportions. They expected certain entriess to win. Unfortunately, it didn't matter how cool their favorite entry looked. If it wouldn't work, it was invalid.

(2) front intake. The 818 uses a single, senter mounted radiator that wouldn't work with the two inlets on the front of the 918. Dual radiators could be an designed, but it would be expensive.

There was one entry that had a very similar style to the 918 that might actually work, and that was by Vman7. It was very popular, and Dave at one point made a very vague, non-committed hint at its possible future. He listed it among some other popular entries as designs that may be considered for the future.

[carbon fiber]

why was there a design contest in the first place if they were going to use an in house design anyway? am i wrong?

[jimgood]

It wouldn't work.
(1) The 918 has different proportions than the 818. The 818 has a similar height, but much smaller footprint.
918 818
wheelbase 104" 95"
width 76" 67.5" at front wheels
height 43" 45" approximately, at roll bar
One of the entries, which was very popular, was closely based on the 918, but when overlaid on the template, it was revealed that the driver would need to be an Oompa Loompa. Much of the dissapointment came from people expecting supercar looks on a car that simply does not have supercar proportions. They expected certain entriess to win. Unfortunately, it didn't matter how cool their favorite entry looked. If it wouldn't work, it was invalid.

(2) front intake. The 818 uses a single, senter mounted radiator that wouldn't work with the two inlets on the front of the 918. Dual radiators could be an designed, but it would be expensive.

There was one entry that had a very similar style to the 918 that might actually work, and that was by Vman7. It was very popular, and Dave at one point made a very vague, non-committed hint at its possible future. He listed it among some other popular entries as designs that may be considered for the future.
I was wondering as much. I had doubts as to whether one could deliver this theoretical 918 body without screwing up the lines to make it fit the FFR chassis. But good luck with that.

[D2W]

why was there a design contest in the first place if they were going to use an in house design anyway? am i wrong?

My personal feeling it was just to create hype. They received an incredible amount of free press coverage from the contest. They did take styling cues from some of the designs, but you could say the contest designs took cues from other cars. The design contest was fun and we got to see some very talented designers, but I think they had too much invested in their inhouse design to throw it away and start over even though most people did not like the original. For what its worth the redesign was slightly better.

[shinn497]

I say make vman and Olmos's designs. They are more beautiful than the 918 and original. Be proud of your kit car.

[Xusia]

Dave (FFR) has stated repeated how important it is to hit their goals for this project. He has also more or less stated Rodney Olmos' and Vman's body designs wouldn't allow them to do that. If I recall correctly, it wasn't possible to product Rodney's body using the thermoforming process, and there were concerns about how it would translate when built full size.

VMan's simply wouldn't allow them to hit the $15k build price, and may actually still be an option later.

So, can we please stop complaining at seemingly every turn about designs we like that aren't being produced at launch?? Pretty please???

Now, back to the point of this thread: Is there enough demand for a 918 looking-ish body for the 818 kit?...

[Nuul]

If I wanted a fake car I would have a lambo fiero already....

I concur. I seem to be one of the few who really digs the existing body.

[HelluvaEngineer]

why was there a design contest in the first place if they were going to use an in house design anyway? am i wrong?

I was a little late to watching the design contest, but I get the feeling the current version is still better than their original due to the design contest.
I think the current front end can be tweaked with some cutting and egg crate type mesh placed in strategic areas for very little extra cost.

[RM1SepEx]

I concur. I seem to be one of the few who really digs the existing body.

I'm with you Nuul... I'm an engineer and realist. The body chosen will be tweaked a bit for sure but it is "hot" enough and will ave the driving capabilities to match. I feel like the design knocks their design and MFG out of the park!

I'm a wee bit tired of all the complaining...

[skullandbones]

What makes you think that a third party supplier is less likely to get sued? All of the high end manufacturers defend their "trade-dress" like a first-born child. No reputable company is going to intentionally get into an expensive pissing contest with Porsche or Ferrari or any of the others. FFR won their suits because they were able to show that Shelby copied the shape from AC and AC did not defend their rights.

It can't be emphasized enough about what happened to Shelby. The precedent is in place (in the replica car industry) which would force Porsche to act immediately and with all their resources.

If it could somehow magically happen, I would be drawn to this design. It has many features I like like the gull wing doors. But I think the cost would be pretty high. The other issue is that we haven't even seen a version of the coupe that will be released later. It may change your mind about considering the 918 if it has the required HOF that FFR promised. Still this is an interesting conversation as it raises points about what could, might, and won't happen . WEK.

[carbon fiber]

some people call it complaining, others call it constructive critisism. i have to suck it up all the time. the great thing about this forum for ffr is that they have direct feedback from their customers. these people have a right to what they like/don't like. they are mostly wanting to receive a car they like, versus a car that will have to be put under the knife. not a big deal for some of us to do, but a deal breaker for others. the real question is how many people like the current design and who doesn't, and who is willing to do modifications/spend more$ and who won't. p.s. i make my living re-engineering things.

[Rockraven]

some people call it complaining, others call it constructive critisism. i have to suck it up all the time. the great thing about this forum for ffr is that they have direct feedback from their customers. these people have a right to what they like/don't like. they are mostly wanting to receive a car they like, versus a car that will have to be put under the knife. not a big deal for some of us to do, but a deal breaker for others. the real question is how many people like the current design and who doesn't, and who is willing to do modifications/spend more$ and who won't.

Exactly. I don't know how anyone can find complaining in this thread.

[Mechie3]

I gave up caring what others think years ago. This car is for ME.

I car only to the extent that my reputation is affected. I wear clean clothes because I dont want to be known as a slob, and mow my lawn because I don't want to be known as someone who doesn't take care of their things. IMO, driving a replica car (lambo, ferrari, etc) that isn't automatically assumed to be a kit by the general public (cobra, etc) makes you out to be someone attempting to fool others into thinking you have/can afford/are something that you're not. I like to be genuine in what I do.

[JRL]

What if a small company offered a comprehensive body kit in gelcoat, including lights, glass, vents, trim and hardware, based on the $800,000 Porsche 918? What would you pay for it over and above the $9995 818 kit? $8000? $10,000? Essentially, we're talking about a finished car that looks very much like the pictures for around $25,000. Interested in the feedback.

There is a reason that car cost $800,000. To think you can scratch build a non donor car body (as you describe) with a decent interior for $8,000 - $10,000 in the small quantities it would muster is simply unrealistic.

If you want a build it yourself coupe in that price range you need to consider the car RCR is currently developing. It is a very clever adaptation of a very economical and readily available platform.

[agepag]

I am really waiting to see the final product in October before I make my final decsion, but the Superlite GTA looks really promising. From the website "The pricing which will be a complete body package and lighting package, all chassis, suspension components, radiator, fuel tank, shocks and brakes is targeted at $19995….this car has electric production windows, HVAC system, electric mirrors etc and be everyday optional 4-6 cylinder, automatic or manual Kit Car"

[JRL]

The GTA very appealing to me as well. An OEM capsule / cockpit with the RCR suspension - what's not to like?

[JRL]

For those of you that are unfamiliar with the GTA http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/439328-rcr-superlight-gta.html

I think they have changed to name to Apex.

[Xusia]

I car only to the extent that my reputation is affected. I wear clean clothes because I dont want to be known as a slob, and mow my lawn because I don't want to be known as someone who doesn't take care of their things. IMO, driving a replica car (lambo, ferrari, etc) that isn't automatically assumed to be a kit by the general public (cobra, etc) makes you out to be someone attempting to fool others into thinking you have/can afford/are something that you're not. I like to be genuine in what I do.

Those are great qualities! Ones I agree with and I'm glad to see we share those. The difference I see is audience. Those whose opinions I care about (family, friends, neighbors, etc.) know me and know the truth already. They will know that I'm building my own car, they will know why, etc. If the car happens to look like something else, they will know it's true origin and that I'm not a poser trying to pretend I own an $800k car. I anticipate every single one of them will think it's pretty awesome I built my own car, regardless what it looks like, and regardless of whether or not it resembles something else.

The opinions of random people at the local coffee shop, burger joint, track or autocross event, etc., don't matter to me. I couldn't care less if they do think I'm a poser, or an idiot for bringing what they think is an $800k car to an autocross event.

I could have been more clear, but I thought the point was more obvious than it apparently was, so let me rephrase: "I gave up caring what random people think years ago. Those who know me - and who's opinions I care about - already know the truth."


I am really waiting to see the final product in October before I make my final decsion, but the Superlite GTA looks really promising. From the website "The pricing which will be a complete body package and lighting package, all chassis, suspension components, radiator, fuel tank, shocks and brakes is targeted at $19995….this car has electric production windows, HVAC system, electric mirrors etc and be everyday optional 4-6 cylinder, automatic or manual Kit Car"

That car is also based on a Eclipse, if memory serves. Just sayin...

[carbon fiber]

may be in poor taste to provide a link to a competitors products. just sayin'.

[JRL]

may be in poor taste to provide a link to a competitors products. just sayin'.

Why - it is a completely different product. Many folks here want more than what FFR is offering (coupe, AC, windows, daily driver, etc.) and I thought they might want to see something very different and let THEM decide what they want to do.

[carbon fiber]

i understand what you're sayin', it's just kinda like talkin' about your girlfriend in front of your wife.

[JRL]

Furthermore they are not really competitors - entirely different market and entirely different approaches to capture markets. The products offered by each are light years apart.

[Zodiac]

isn't the superlite gta the one they are calling the Apex? here's a link http://www.gt40s.com/forum/rcr-forum-rcr40-slc-p4-mkiv/37704-rcr-visit-july-20-2012-a.html

apparently a 4g63t mid engine based car. sounds great but lack of details like weight and exact cost still. i'm seeing about $20k for the kit and i don't think that even includes the donor cost. still leaning towards the 818 cause of the weight/cost. but i would love to have a 4g63t based car just cause of the reliability of the engine (having one of myself and able to handle much more power) and ccheaper transmission builds and gearing options for lite weight ride. hell if all goes well after i build the 818 maybe i'll do the apex as well hmmmm

[shinn497]

I love the GTA. The styling looks better than the 818 in current form and was really what I was hoping for the 818. I think a lot of people want a car that could be mistaken for an exotic super car. Really if FFR could do that without having to ask for us to see it in person than we wouldn't have these threads anymore.

With that said, it is rally obvious we don't know everything about the 818.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Heck, ya'all can keep the 818 and 918 bodies for someone else. I'm perfectly content to run it just like this and be happy as a clown! :)

http://www.emotorsports.org/images/GRM/DSC_0047.JPG

Despite the fact that I drive a FFR roadster (NOT a Cobra) I really am not---->
attempting to fool others into thinking [I] have/can afford/[am] something that [I'm] not.

Jeff

[Xusia]

THAT... is an awesome pic!

[Mechie3]

Despite the fact that I drive a FFR roadster (NOT a Cobra) I really am not---->

Jeff

The thing with the cobra, is that everyone pretty much assumes if you have one that it is a kit, so no one thinks you are trying to fool others.

[agepag]

isn't the superlite gta the one they are calling the Apex? here's a link http://www.gt40s.com/forum/rcr-forum-rcr40-slc-p4-mkiv/37704-rcr-visit-july-20-2012-a.html

apparently a 4g63t mid engine based car. sounds great but lack of details like weight and exact cost still. i'm seeing about $20k for the kit and i don't think that even includes the donor cost. still leaning towards the 818 cause of the weight/cost. but i would love to have a 4g63t based car just cause of the reliability of the engine (having one of myself and able to handle much more power) and ccheaper transmission builds and gearing options for lite weight ride. hell if all goes well after i build the 818 maybe i'll do the apex as well hmmmm

Yes it is called the Apex. I emailed the company last night and they got back to me within 10 mins of my emails, they are going to start shipping Jan 2013 and there should be new pictures up by the end of the week. I really hope the cost stays around the $20,000 for the complete kit minus the donor.

[agepag]

may be in poor taste to provide a link to a competitors products. just sayin'.

Your right, this the the Factory Five 818 forum, but since people are looking around at different options, body styles etc. I thought this would be a good comparison, my bad. I really think Factory five should have kept this project under wraps abit more, they had the compition and there were so many other designs that people liked better then the one that was chosen, its like they teased everyone with what could have been. Now we have to wait until October to see the final reveal, hopefully pictures do not do the current 818 Justice and it will blow everyone away! For $15,000 you really can't go wrong, Dave makes some killer kit cars and I think in the end this one will be what everyone is hoping for, only time will tell......

[carbon fiber]

i think the 818 will be a winner for ffr either way, and i think there's room for both companies in the market. hats of to both companies for making the term "kit car" respectable. when i was in high school one of my friends dads built a couple of kit cars that were availible at the time and they were nightmares. tons of parts to source or fabricate and not much in the way of quaility. (doors, hoods, etc. hinged to fiberglass instead of the frame / cheap chop glass bodies / the list goes on.) i know what you guys are sayin', and i'm glad we do have options. lookin' forward to seeing these cars come to fruition.

[skullandbones]

Personally, I like the open approach to the forum. I think most people know what they want and have been drawn to the FFR camp because of quality, stability, and honesty that FFR has brought to the industry. So, showing other views gives a more balanced picture for everybody. Having said that, the post was allowed to be published so I don't think anyone feels threatened by it.

BTW, I didn't see any 918 replicas in the link. WEK.

[Evan78]

IMO, driving a replica car (lambo, ferrari, etc) that isn't automatically assumed to be a kit by the general public (cobra, etc) makes you out to be someone attempting to fool others into thinking you have/can afford/are something that you're not. I like to be genuine in what I do.Genuine is great, but your statement sounds like you think of a car as a status symbol first. If I could buy a car that has the attributes I want at a discount price from a different manufacturer, I'd take it in a heartbeat. I don't care if people think I paid much more, that's their problem if they make assumptions about what I can or cannot afford. Perhaps your situation is different and you have to consider people's perceptions of you more than the average Joe, but you shouldn't pass judgement on those that are not constrained by what other people think.

[Oppenheimer]

I see the Superlite Apex as helping FFR, not hurting them. It will bring more notariety to the component car world. As people see one of these cars (Apex or 818), they will do research about the one they saw, and stumble across the existence of the other. Then whichever more closely fits their needs will be the one they choose. Since the two don't exactly crossover, each person will be drawn more to one than the other. So both cars should sell well.

Its kinda like when a bunch of car dealers all setup shop in the same area. It doesn't hurt their business, it helps them.

PS - Interesting its now called Apex, as that was one of the names suggested for the 818 that had some appeal.

[PhyrraM]

From a quick read of parts of the thread:

818 pros:
Superlight Apex is going to be heavier than the 818.
818 has a 100% designed for purpose chassis. (Apex will use bolt on front and rear suspension subframes)
Looks like the 818 has smaller/tidier dimensions.
Price.
Newer 'official' donor pool ('02-'07 vs '95-'99 for the Apex)
818 is 100% bolt together. (Apex will require carefull cutting of, and reuse of, the donor unitbody.)
818 is still no paint as far as we know.

Apex pros:
OEM level interior/fit and finish
HVAC
Glass side windows w/power
Likely easier to register.


Assuming the current info is accurate and doesn't change much it seems the Apex is the daily driver and the 818 is the toy - when compaired to each other.

.....interesting about the name too.

Question? Isn't the 'use the passenger cell intact' method what Dave's brother was working on for a high-mileage VW based car?

[Zodiac]

I know Dave mentioned in a previous post that the 818 will have hvac. The glass windows and roof unfortunately will be future. I can't remember what he mentioned about the interior as far as carpet and what not but i'm sure it'll be good.

But yes the Apex will be requiring more extensive work and seems the interior is basically OEM. I wouldn't necessarily say the 818 is on the toy side and not daily driver though.

[Vman7]

Ok a little confused here........lol In the last few posts ppl are talking about the Apex, are you talking about the actual Apex (no body car) or are you talking about the RCR in development GTA?

[PhyrraM]

Ok a little confused here........lol In the last few posts ppl are talking about the Apex, are you talking about the actual Apex (no body car) or are you talking about the RCR in development GTA?

I'm going off of what is said in this thread above....The in development RCR car based on the '95-'99 Eclipse/Talon supposedly renamed from GTA to Apex.

[Vman7]

I'm going off of what is said in this thread above....The in development RCR car based on the '95-'99 Eclipse/Talon supposedly renamed from GTA to Apex.

I saw that, then when I saw it again, I got confused. I looked all over Superlite Cars (RCR) website and could not see that apex was mentioned anywhere, unless I missed it. Far as I can tell it is still GTA.

Anyhoot......lol When I was thinking of Apex, I was thinking of the no body Ariel Atom.........my mistake

[JRL]

Much of the confusion can be eliminated by reading the two threads over on the GT 40 Forum. I'd provide a link but you know :D

[Xusia]

One MAJOR drawback of the Apex that I see is that it uses the interior cabin of the donor intact. How many 14-18 year old cars do you know that have decent interiors? Most are wiped out or in need of serious reconditioning. That makes donor selection more difficult. Yes, if you can find good examples, the level of fit and finish would be higher, but I can live with a spartan interior that's mostly new and doesn't smell like the last 5 owners...

[shinn497]

but it also leaves room for easier interior upgrades.

[Jeff Kleiner]

One MAJOR drawback of the Apex that I see is that it uses the interior cabin of the donor intact...

I think some of you are missing what is perhaps the most important feature of the Apex, GTA, whatever you want to call it. That being that since it retains the interior/cabin of the donor it also retains the VIN (just like the G3F), eliminating the registration issues that plague builders in many states and Canada.

Jeff

[skullandbones]

Jeff,

Interesting tid bit. I wonder if the builders rip out the OEM interiers and create a nice custom replacement once the registration process is completed. Sounds like a "loop hole" to me. And as in many other cases, follows the letter of the law but not the spirit!!! WEK.

[Xusia]

Yeah, I hadn't thought of that. Good point. Not really an issue for me, but probably relevant - and even important - to some. If it was an issue for me I think I'd be more inclined to go through the registration hassles rather than OEM interior hassles.

[Oppenheimer]

What does the interior have to do with it? Isn't it that it avoids registration issues because it retains the shell, or occupant capsule, which includes the VIN stamp?

If you take a registered production car, and completely replace the interior, its still the same car as far as DMV is concerned. If you add a body kit that radically changes the look, or even go more wild and graft on body parts from other cars, its still the same car. If you replace the frame with a custom one, same car. Replace the entire drivetrain, same car. At what point is not the same car? If the part where the VIN is stamped is removed or replaced, not the same car anymore. I think.

[Xusia]

The Apex (aka Superlite GTA) uses the main body compartment of an Eclipse. Because of that, skullandbones was saying it isn't a completely new car and no additional paperwork is required. It's still an Eclipse as far as DMV is concerned. Contrast that with the 818 which uses a new and completely separate frame, meaning it's a new car.

Where this ties into the discussion is the relative benefits of the approach of using the interior cabin (Apex) vs. a new cabin/interior (818). Not having additional paperwork and/or smog tests to pass is a distinct advantage of using the interior cabin of an existing car.

[07FIREBLADE]

Xusia,

Though wouldn't retaining the interior/cabin restrict people from upgrading so to say the performance of the car to an extent. If it's still the same car and thus needs to be registered and smog as an eclipse. Thus you must keep and retain all of your smog equipment to stay legal within the letter of the law. While the FFR 818; will be a bit more of a hassle to register, but once registered depending on how you go about registering the car you are open to more upgrades. Don't quote me but can't you technically register the car as a year 65 and not have to deal with smog under sb100 in California at least.

I am honestly just going off of memory and am not saying this is anywhere correct. Just my logical approach to this topic. By the current look of both cars I like the GTA or Apex over the current rendering but neither are final. Rodney's is by far my favorite. I'm just leerking and trying to stay in the loop and currently in the planning stages of my build which
Is a few years I'm the making since I'm still in college.

[Niburu]

Xusia,
While the FFR 818; will be a bit more of a hassle to register, but once registered depending on how you go about registering the car you are open to more upgrades. Don't quote me but can't you technically register the car as a year 65 and not have to deal with smog under sb100 in California at least.


I believe that only applies to replica cars.

[Zodiac]

http://www.bipac.net/page.asp?content=tag_title_toolbox&g=SEMAGA

it's been discussed a couple times and for california if you can get an SB100 then you are smog exempt.

"A specially constructed vehicle may be built
from (1) a kit; (2) new or used, or a combination of new and used, parts; or (3) a vehicle reported for
dismantling (junked), as required by Section 5500 or 11520, which, when reconstructed, does not
resemble the original make of the vehicle dismantled. A specially constructed vehicle is not a vehicle
which has been repaired or restored to its original design by replacing parts."

[Xusia]

Let me first say, I'm NOT in favor of keeping the interior cabin. As I stated in posts above, I'd rather have a fresh, clean interior even if that means it's spartan (li.e. less feature rich).


Xusia,

Though wouldn't retaining the interior/cabin restrict people from upgrading so to say the performance of the car to an extent. If it's still the same car and thus needs to be registered and smog as an eclipse.

That's going to depend on the state.


Thus you must keep and retain all of your smog equipment to stay legal within the letter of the law.

Of course. I think that's the same in all 50 states. That said, who does that (except to pass an inspection or whatever)?


While the FFR 818; will be a bit more of a hassle to register, but once registered depending on how you go about registering the car you are open to more upgrades. Don't quote me but can't you technically register the car as a year 65 and not have to deal with smog under sb100 in California at least.

How "open" to upgrades the car is will likely depend on the rules of the registering state, and your personal moral attitude about following those rules. Since I live in Oregon, I admittedly do not know much about registration in other states. In Oregon where I live, there are no inspections or other crud to deal with, so the year listed on the registration is completely irrelevant. In the case of a car like the 818 which uses a new frame, the year is based on the year of the frame as listed on the MSO (IIRC).


I am honestly just going off of memory and am not saying this is anywhere correct. Just my logical approach to this topic. By the current look of both cars I like the GTA or Apex over the current rendering but neither are final. Rodney's is by far my favorite. I'm just leerking and trying to stay in the loop and currently in the planning stages of my build which
Is a few years I'm the making since I'm still in college.

Looks are subjective, but I'm basing my buying decision (that is, I've ALREADY decided to buy this kit - I'm just waiting for roll up windows) on the performance, cost, build quality, etc. Therefore, as long as it's not ugly, I'm in. Compared to the Apex, my PERSONAL opinion is the 818 is a superior vehicle. It also costs less, and should be far easier to complete. Both of these things are more important to me than sheer looks. Meaning, even if I thought the Apex was the better looking car, I still wouldn't buy it over the 818.

I also liked Rodney's design. A lot. But smart money says it will never get produced as an 818 body. As I understand it, the curves and other features aren't compatible with the "template" or the thermo-forming process (which is a key to success of the kit). VMan's has a decent chance of being produced. How much later, if at all, is sheer guess at this point...

[07FIREBLADE]

Everything that you have said is completely understandable. Looks are pure subjective. I'm purely FFR. I like the amount of engineering that goes into them and the community that is affiliated with them as well. I just wished it would look a little more exotic but that is just me and my opinion. I'm honestly waiting for HVAC, power windows and a hard top feature of some sort. This is going to be a DD when I'm not on my bike. I'm currently looking for my donor which is going to be my new DD until these features are available.

Also the 818 is for a trial run. My real heart is where the GTM lies. I've loved this car ever since its introduction way back in 04. I think what FFR is doing with the 818 will only improve there quality of work on their other cars. Hopefully a Gen 3 GTM will be available when I'm ready to build that one.

I understand laws for registration will vary between state to state and countries and so forth. Also what you do with your car is between you and Johnny Law. For me I'm gonna get it register ASAP to get that smog exemption then I'm planning on going balls to the wall with it. But that's just current plans. When it comes time to build things can always change.

Lastly for kicks when I get.pulled over for doing something stupid my registration is going to say FFR as the registration and the cop is gonna be like what's this. With the GTA or Apex their gonna be like.... nice body kit for your eclipse..... Lol

[PhyrraM]

About California SB100...

It's not a 100% garuanteed way to go. There are only so many handed out each year - with Street rods, Cobra replicas, homebuilts and other kits and such all competing for them. A few years ago, if you didn't have the first DMV appointment of the day on Jan 2nd, you were SOL until next year (or register w/smog requirements). You were also competing with finished, registered cars hoping to get one to remove existing requirements. I hear it's a bit easier now, because many cannot afford to work on thier projects anymore.

As far as interior, I just want something that fits well, has a cohesive theme, and has decent soft-ish textures (even if I have to make them 'soft' with a leather wrap). I don't want all flat surfaces or 2D "race-car" aluminum sheet everywhere. I don't want something that has it's components just thrown together. IMHO from pictures, the GTM interior is really bad in this regard. For me, an OEM interior is likely a better place to start, considering the 818 price point. Some of the prototype "new Stratos" interior renderings looked appropriate and acceptable for the 818. Looking forward to what FFR has planned.

I'm not really interested in the Apex, so it hardly matters anyways.

[Xusia]

I with you PhyrraM. If the interior is that bad, my plan is to dress it up a bit like you stated. I also plan to introduce some sound proofing to cut road noise. I don't mind hearing the engine, but I can really do without hearing the tires having a conversation with every pebble on the road...

[flynntuna]

I think I read in a early thread that Dave said the 818 would be a very spartan car. My take on his post is the interior will be simple like the 33 hot rod.

[Zodiac]

haha yea same here. depending how interior goes i may look into dressing it up myself. as well as seeing if i can get a hard top (maybe even removable bolt on top or something) made for it as well. but its a little early to really be thinking about it too much just yet.

[flynntuna]

I'm hoping FFR surprises us in Nov. with the street version having a targa top.

[Xusia]

I *WISH* that would happen as well, but I just don't see it. Not trying to be Debbie Downer, just looking at everything that's been said by FFR to date.

[Samiam1017]

I think the biggest difference between the 818 and the apex will be seen in the insurance. The 818 will require the car to be insured to a stated value (maybe need an appraisal). While the apex is just a old eclipse. And could be insured as one too. Now get hit by some old lady and see who's pissed more the 818 owner that will get the appraised value or the apex owner that gets 1200 bucks for his totaled 25000 custom eclipse.

[Xusia]

I'm pretty sure any car can be insured at stated value. [blatant knock]But those willing to put $20k into an Eclipse may not be that wise![/blatant knock] :D

[Oppenheimer]

The Apex (aka Superlite GTA) uses the main body compartment of an Eclipse. Because of that, skullandbones was saying it isn't a completely new car and no additional paperwork is required. It's still an Eclipse as far as DMV is concerned. Contrast that with the 818 which uses a new and completely separate frame, meaning it's a new car.

Where this ties into the discussion is the relative benefits of the approach of using the interior cabin (Apex) vs. a new cabin/interior (818). Not having additional paperwork and/or smog tests to pass is a distinct advantage of using the interior cabin of an existing car.

Right, we're saying the same thing, that its the main body compartment that makes it the 'same car' to DMV, with all the advantages that brings.

But just because the Apex can use the stock Eclipse interior doesn't mean you have to use it when you build one. Its just like with the FFR Roadster, people would critisize it because it used old worn out Mustang parts. Well, just because you can build yours with an old, unrebuilt drivetrain and rusted unrestored suspension and stuff doesn't mean you have to, nor even that most do. Most at the very least restore, rebuild, paint, etc all the donor parts.

So it doesn't seem to make sense to me to link the benefits of reusing the body shell (DMV registration) with any perceived drawbacks of reusing the old, worn interior that comes with that shell. Most Apex builders are certainly going to restore/upgrade their Eclipse interior as part of their build. It will just add to the overall build time & cost.

It seems more correct to just compare the total build time and cost for each (818 vs Apex vs Smyth) for a complete finished car (to an 'equivalent' level of fit & finish), along with the end results performance wise and looks, and of course the ease of registration. Picking out a single perceived drawback that won't be part of almost any finished builds seems like the same unfair comparison many try to use against FFR donor concept.

[Xusia]

I get what you are saying now. We have tended to think alike, but I think in this case I feel a bit different. OEM interiors typically have a LOT of pieces and are very complicated. Completely refitting an OEM interior is a lot of work compared to dressing up a kit interior, so I don't see those as equal comparison. I see the OEM interior as a definite downside.

[JRL]

A really stupid comment..................1017

[agepag]

I think the biggest difference between the 818 and the apex will be seen in the insurance. The 818 will require the car to be insured to a stated value (maybe need an appraisal). While the apex is just a old eclipse. And could be insured as one too. Now get hit by some old lady and see who's pissed more the 818 owner that will get the appraised value or the apex owner that gets 1200 bucks for his totaled 25000 custom eclipse.


It dosn't really work that way, well maybe in Nepa, but not where im from. Both vehicles will need to be appraised to be properly insured, this I know since im an insurance broker, so the 818 and apex will be valued at what the apprasial comes back at so when the old lady hits your kit car it will be fully covered.

[D2W]

One thing I think most are missing with the GTA(apex) is the fit of the production doors/side windows, and the HVAC system. A kit car from scratch will never have the quality of fit and seal of a production car door. If you want to use your car as a daily driver this would be a big +.

[carbon fiber]

the doors/seals can be worked to fit as well as factory. whether they'll come that way or not is the question.

[PhyrraM]

I agree that anything can be made to fit but, reading through the GTM and Daytona Coupe build threads, starting with a production shell is a huge headstart in many areas of 'daily driverness'.

That being said, IMHO how the car is designed and constructed is not going to be the major deciding factor for most folks. The Mitsu-Subaru divide will be - with each 'side' using various points to defend thier positions. And then, even at that, many of us are looking at the 818, not from the Subaru side - but from the 'next FFR project side' or the 'somebody should have already done the middy Subaru' sides. Those folks are not even interested in the Apex.

Personally, outside of the OEM level (albeit dated) interior and HVAC, I don't see much I like about the Apex.

[Samiam1017]

[QUOTE=agepag;70034]It dosn't really work that way, well maybe in Nepa, but not where im from. Both vehicles will need to be appraised to be properly insured, this I know since im an insurance broker, so the 818 and apex will be valued at what the apprasial comes back at so when the old lady hits your kit car it will be fully covered.[/QUOTE

If its possible to register the car as an eclipse. ( this based on the comments about the use of the vin) then its very possible that the car just gets insured that way. Obviously not the smart thing to do. But I'm sure it will happen.

[QUOTE=JRL;70009]A really stupid comment..................1017[/
What's so stupid about the cooment that it needed a stupid reply?

[Oppenheimer]

I get what you are saying now. We have tended to think alike, but I think in this case I feel a bit different. OEM interiors typically have a LOT of pieces and are very complicated. Completely refitting an OEM interior is a lot of work compared to dressing up a kit interior, so I don't see those as equal comparison. I see the OEM interior as a definite downside.

I was thinking of stuff like vinyl paint, that new 3M faux CF adhesive material, or similar brushed Aluminium look. Replace the seats, steering wheel, refresh/update the vinyl surfaces, update the plastic pieces. I think it could be made to look/feel decent. Maybe I should go google pics of vintage Eclipse interiors first though, not currently remembering how dated they might be.

[Xusia]

Cosmetically, that would probably work. What about smells in the carpet or underneath the carpet? Dirt in places you didn't think it could get? What about working in/behind the dash to make modifications or install anything custom? Not impossible, but pains in the *****!

[bromikl]

If I'm going through the trouble of building a car, I don't want OEM bits in there looking out of place. It's a kit, and custom is good. If FFR had a suggested configuration that isn't OEM, I'd be glad to have that for a starting point. Who know what it might look like in two years?

[Oppenheimer]

Cosmetically, that would probably work. What about smells in the carpet or underneath the carpet? Dirt in places you didn't think it could get? What about working in/behind the dash to make modifications or install anything custom? Not impossible, but pains in the *****!

Last night I was working on a stereo install on my '71 Buick GS (I had cut out the stock plastic radio bezel that was built to accept a 2 post radio, and custom fabed an insert to accept a modern head unit). Laying on my back with hands under dash trying to get this all to fit and make work, I know just what you mean about carpet smell and dirt. And this car is exceptionally clean for its age and miles, not an unrestored 15-20 year old OEM interior that probably hasn't been cleaned in a decade.

[Niburu]

My old 70 Skylark 4 door Hartop (no B-pillar between the windows) is one of the few cars I truelly regret selling.

[dbjr63]

I have been following the 818 for over a year and I have just started following the Apex. I see the pros and cons on how both are built and could be used as a daily driver. I am leaning towards the Apex because of the Eclipse cabin and the styling of the body. I am still holding out hope for a more cutting edge body style on the 818 coupe but I doubt I will see it. I look forward to seeing the 818S at the open house in June and maybe it will change my mind, but again I will only buy an 818 when a coupe is offered. At this stage I am at the “wait and see” stage on the 818 coupe and Apex. But I like the looks of the Apex 10 times more than the rounded 818.

[Oppenheimer]

If looks matter the most to you, then get the one that looks the best to you. If you are buying to use as a high-performance DD, then buy the one that best suits that use (which would currently favor the Apex since its a closed roof with roll up windows).

Where the 818 really shines is bang-for-buck. Its performance will be off the charts (compared to production vehicles), yet it will cost only around $15K to complete (which is less than just the kit costs for Apex). Eventually FFR will build a more weather friendly version of 818.

[SamKor]

I like this design by Jeff Teague and wish someone would have offered a kit for it :17676

[SamKor]

Someone pointed out the GTA/Apex and this China built car (Tong Jian S11 coupe) look similar:

http://www.carscoops.com/2012/04/jac-unwraps-heyue-sc-rwd-coupe-and-rein.html

[flynntuna]

I can't justify to the CFO(my better half) one of these so, an 818 will be so much more fun in ways that money can't buy.

[bnr32jason]

I know the comment was meant to be lighthearted, but I hope you aren't expecting the 818 to replace a Jag or other medium-high end convertible. This is going to be a very "spartan" car, nothing in the way of luxuries, comfort options, etc. Unless you put the time and effort to make it more luxurious, but I have a feeling that might be a futile attempt.

[flynntuna]

I know the comment was meant to be lighthearted, but I hope you aren't expecting the 818 to replace a Jag or other medium-high end convertible. This is going to be a very "spartan" car, nothing in the way of luxuries, comfort options, etc. Unless you put the time and effort to make it more luxurious, but I have a feeling that might be a futile attempt.

Ha ha, nah it's a take on bait and switch, you go in saying your going to buy a 70k Jag and then come back with "I'll settle for an 818" which is what you wanted in the first place. Something I learned from watching I Love Lucy. LOL

[bbjones121]

this is a car that most will never see outside of pictures

After a 9 months I finally see this posting.

...and some of us get to hear and watch six of these go past while sitting in the drive through at Arby's during their high altitude testing last year. Followed them to a local Marriott where they were trying to cover them quickly.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-s6Rpmatt3Oc/UZMZPMIdUKI/AAAAAAAAVcs/j41oTfV1VAQ/w1597-h1198-no/20120918_114208.jpg

[mattster03]

Wow, those car look sick from that angle!

[carbon fiber]

they look sick at all angles! i love the 918. best car they ever built besides the 917 or 962

[Silvertop]

they look sick at all angles! i love the 918. best car they ever built besides the 917 or 962

I've always had a thing for the 904.

[JAubin]

Vid of some details of the 918, lots of impressive carbon on it... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mu_GezgxQ4o#!
Oh and some driving :)

[longislandwrx]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-s6Rpmatt3Oc/UZMZPMIdUKI/AAAAAAAAVcs/j41oTfV1VAQ/w1597-h1198-no/20120918_114208.jpg


Wow 6? that's $5 Million worth of Porsches!

[Movieman]

Funny... most people don't have that hangup with a $600,000 Shelby Cobra or $4 million Shelby Daytona.

There's a good reason for that and it is acceptance. EVERY car guy that exists KNOWS that with very few exceptions EVERY Cob*a roadster and EVERY coupe is a replica.
It's that knowing and accepting of the replica that makes the difference.
Heck, I've loved cars since I was 14 in 1966 and seen in person just one orginal roadster and never seen one of the six coupes..
There's another factor and in reality forgetting value and just looking at quality what David Smith and his crew build is better in every measurable way than the orginals.
Granted FFR has the advantage of 50 years of technological advantage but that doesn't change the fact that for a daily driver you'd much rather have one of his than one of Carrolls orginals especially in regards to the coupe.
It's just plain a better mousetrap than the orginal..






( Now if that doesn't get me a ride in David Smith's coupe nothing will! ) :D

[carbon fiber]

i like the 904 too silvertop. have you seen these cool conversions of a late model boxter to 904, by gullwing america?17731 like what movieman's saying, modern underneath, vintage on top.

[Silvertop]

i like the 904 too silvertop. have you seen these cool conversions of a late model boxter to 904, by gullwing america?17731 like what movieman's saying, modern underneath, vintage on top.

I'll have to check that out....... That could even be a halfway affordable project, if one could find an appropriately compromised Boxster for not too much money. I won't be building it, though. I'm committed to the 818 -- which to my mind is very Porsche-like anyways.

There are some frame-up kits available out there too. Check out Carrera Coachwerks (formerly Thunder Ranch) of San Diego CA, which offers a complete kit using 911 power. Figure on spending 100K or more though. Seems to me the Beck people have something out there too.

[Silvertop]

i like the 904 too silvertop. have you seen these cool conversions of a late model boxter to 904, by gullwing america?17731 like what movieman's saying, modern underneath, vintage on top.

I checked out the Gullwing America 904. A very neat idea -- but also expensive. Looks like it will be in the $90,000 range -- and that doesn't include the Boxster donor..... Too steep for me. But I love the concept.

[bnr32jason]

I'll be building a P3/P4 replica eventually just because I can't afford $12M for one of the few originals. I'll use a Ferrari V12 engine though to try to make it a little more Ferrari but I would never try to pass it off as the real thing.

[Darkpiggy's dad]

Check out some of the P4 masterpieces built by Ray and Aaron Chauvanetz at Mastercraft in Ovilla Texas. They are among the best panel beaters in the world, and wonderful people. Aaron was making whole aluminum P4 bodies when he was just 19 years old. Ray and his sons are amazing. Google them.

[Turboguy]

What if a small company offered a comprehensive body kit in gelcoat, including lights, glass, vents, trim and hardware, based on the $800,000 Porsche 918? What would you pay for it over and above the $9995 818 kit? $8000? $10,000?


I'd be all over that faster than you could check the balance in your Paypal account.

[erachner]

[QUOTE=Rockraven;69259]What if a small company offered a comprehensive body kit in gelcoat, including lights, glass, vents, trim and hardware, based on the $800,000 Porsche 918? What would you pay for it over and above the $9995 818 kit? $8000? $10,000? Essentially, we're talking about a finished car that looks very much like the pictures for around $25,000. Interested in the feedback.

This thread, and especially the idea of custom bodies on FFR frames, moves me to post my extended $0.02 on replicas, derivatives, etc.:

As to replicas – a good replica is nothing to be ashamed of. Take one look at Ken Imhoff’s amazing homemade Countach Replica, and you know instantly that 1. that car doesn’t need to prove anything to anybody, let alone fool them, and 2. any practical-minded enthusiast would probably rather own Imhoff’s replica than the real deal. So it’s got 8 cylinders instead of 12? Who cares? It’s a solid build, made from accessible, serviceable components, and it reflects equal attention to accuracy, performance and quality. I’ve never seen it in person, but I’ll wager it doesn’t squeak and rattle when you drive it down the road.

Speaking for myself, if I was to build any sort of replica, I’d like nothing better than to build it on a mid-engined FFR chassis, because I’m completely persuaded of the quality of FFR as a platform.

But a sincere attempt at resemblance does not an acceptable replica make. Accuracy matters. The car has to accurately and precisely replicate the length, width, wheelbase, track, and height of the original. All the rest, the pillars, the beltline, the doors, everything, has to exactly replicate the measurements of the original, or else it’s not a replica. At best, it’s a derivative masquerading as a replica; at worst, it's the automotive equivalent of a fat man in a miniskirt.

If the 818 or the GTM are suitable replica candidates for some car or another, so much the better, although I’m not aware of any classics whose measurements are compatible without major modifications to either of those frames. (Maybe there are; I just don’t know.)

So, about derivatives – a good derivative is nothing to be ashamed of, either. A good derivative being a car which is clearly inspired by, but proudly distinct from, some other exotic or classic, in addition to being well-designed and properly equipped. Despite the conspicuous Murci/Gallardo derivation of Gagliardi’s designs, I absolutely love the way they look, and if I thought the quality of the base cars was even in the same ballpark as an FFR kit, I might hold them up as a respectable example of what I mean by "derivative." (If it wasn't such a well-known all-around PITA, I might also cite the K1 Attack as a good example, although I'm not sure what I'd say it derives from.)

So, if you can offer a replica of something cool, and can make the case that one could absolutely nail the measurements of the original car on an FFR frame, I, for one, would love to hear more. Just as well, if you’ve got the design chops to offer a striking albeit "inspired" design that’s compatible with an FFR chassis, then again, I would love to hear more.

- Eric

(None of which is to take anything away from FFR. Far as I’m concerned, there is not a single employee or officer at FFR for whom I wouldn’t buy a beer and thank sincerely just for the opportunity to enjoy the product of their work at the price they’re offering it. I want them all to know how much I look forward to showing off my 818 at every opportunity.)