brake bias

[SkiRideDrive]

So I was thinking about the fact that the 818 is going to have quite a bit more rear weigh bias than the wrx from the factory (assuming FF's 60% rear weight bias report is with driver - if not it may be a bit closer to 50/50 as a driver can make a significant impact on such a light car).

I was curious if anyone knows of an inexpensive way to make the stock brake system have adjustable bias.

Thanks

[StatGSR]

Google "brake bias adjuster" there are many many cheap ways to adjust bias. Pad selection is another way to adjust bias...

[apexanimal]

h6 upgrade

[Evan78]

Proportioning valves are used all the time. They're cheap.

Edit: should have said "adjustable proportioning valves"

[jimgood]

Well, that was easy. NEXT!

[clintavo]

Might not be quite as easy as that. I track a 1st gen MR2 SC that had a horrible stock front brake bias. The rears would barely clean off rotor rust. After gutting the stock proportioning valve (later I put in the Summit one) it DROPS ANCHOR.

But for the 818, an inexpensive proportioning valve (that simply adjusts restriction of flow to the rears) won't make up for the area of the rear brakes' pistons being significantly smaller than those of the front. With the weight shifted from 60/40? WRX to 45/55(?), something more might be needed for optimal braking.

Perhaps higher friction rear pads?
Or a dual master cylinder, one for the front, and one for the rear?

[Evan78]

SkiRideDrive asked for an inexpensive way to add adjustable bias to the stock system, but you're right, optimal results will probably require additional measures.

FFR has stated the target or expected 818 weight distribution to be 42/58. On a WRX, the stock system will get front fade before rear, but I assume that if you adjust the bias rearward on the 818, the rears are going to fade before the fronts. So, the stock system installed on the 818 with modified bias might be great for a limited number of hard stops, it probably won't be ideal for heavy duty use.

It's been discussed here before, so a little searching may turn up some useful information.

[305mouse]

You could always run 02-05 front calipers that were 2 pot and 06-07 rear calipers that are 2 pot.

[Evan78]

Is there any difference in the force applied? I know 02-05 had sliding calipers and 2006 got the fixed 4pot/2pot calipers, but I don't know of any difference in bias or brake performance.

[StatGSR]

^ the old 2 pot sliders actually apply more force but the 4 pots provide better feel.

[emironov]

I've been thinking this problem through for a while, and to do it right there will not be an easy solution. I do also want to try and keep abs, though it will be interesting to see how the computer reacts with much less weight. The easiest solution that I have been able to come up with is this:

Just reversing the brake lines. Run what was the fronts to the rears, and the rear lines to the front. The factory proportioning valve is setup for a car that is around 60/40 front weight bias, and the 818 will be close to reversed. This will increase the percentage applied to the rear calipers, and decrease the fronts. I am also planning on using an Alcon 340mm 4-pot front brake setup, as that is what is on my donor right now. Rears will be 2-pot Brembos.

The extra surface area of the Alcons should help even out the pressure reduction to the fronts. The rear pressure increase should make the rears more suited to a mid-engine car. The donor is an 05 STi, and the ABS is independent per wheel, so at least in theory it should keep working.

However in the end it will take a bit of testing to make sure that the fronts will lock up before the rears, then I can test the ABS.

[Evan78]

I'd like to have ABS available as well, it would be great to get the oem system working. I know aftermarket solutions exist, but have never looked into them.

I'm guessing that the factory lines won't be reused, but I understand your point, reverse the oem proportioning valve. I'm not sure there's any need for that if you just use an adjustable proportioning valve. As cheap as they are, I don't see a reason not to unless it affects a racing classification or something like that.

Despite the rear weight bias of the 818, more of the braking is going to be done by the front than the rear. The difference between front and rear is going to be less than a front engined car, but there will still be a front bias.

[PhyrraM]

Outside of fabricating brake lines, I don't see any great technical reason not to incorperate the stock WRX ABS.

The car is already based on a WRX harness so the wiring is there. The stock hubs are being reused in their OEM locations (front/rear) so the wheel speed sensors will be available. IIRC, the control unit is a part of the ABS pump/distribution block assembly, so that needs to be mounted and plumbed. The last item is a "G" sensor mounted somewhere (can't believe I don't know where).

Also, for a street car the ABS will mask most brake balance issues. For a race car, driven at the traction limits, 'natural' brake balance is much more important.

[Evan78]

If the balance is off enough for the ABS to kick in on a regular basis, that would make me a bit uneasy. I find a pulsing pedal pretty distracting.

[Mechie3]

Factory abs left a bit to be desired. Small bumps in the road would sometimes activate abs.

[PhyrraM]

Factory abs left a bit to be desired. Small bumps in the road would sometimes activate abs.

Yeah, train tracks were sometimes downright scary in the right situation. IIRC, there was a firmware update that dealt with it.

In any case, my point is that for a 'cruiser' reuse of the factory ABS should be both possible and maintain the factory safety-net. Tracked cars have usually disabled the Subaru ABS and the 818 will likely be the same.

[Evan78]

Factory abs left a bit to be desired. Small bumps in the road would sometimes activate abs.I know that was true for at least some 2002 models, since that's what I had, but I believe there is a technical service bulletin (TSB) that calls for reprogramming the ABS to react differently. I never bothered doing it though, so I don't know how much it changed. My 2005 Legacy GT doesn't seem to do it, although I don't drive it as hard as I drove my WRX.

[Evan78]

I'd still take the 2002 ABS over nothing at all. You can even install an on/off switch for it if you want to be able to disable it easily.

[RM1SepEx]

:) The ABS will be gone... it's a crutch I don't need :)

[Evan78]

I'd rather keep that safety net, especially for anyone else that drives it and any bad weather situations. Not sure "crutch" is an accurate characterization.

[StatGSR]

^ you plan on driving in the snow with this? even in the snow the subaru abs wont stop the car it was designed for if its running crappy tires.

I'm still in the bandwagon that thinks the stock abs would be terrible in an a car it wasn't even remotely designed for. maybe one of those "ABS Kits" that come with adjustable maps may be more appropriate. idk, I'm more than content without having abs, my track integra doesn't have abs, my winter beater subaru doesn't have abs, i think i will manage.

[Evan78]

No, I don't have plans to drive in the snow. Rain is what I was referring to. I've owned cars with and without ABS and currently have a Miata without and a Subaru with. I haven't crashed yet, but there should not even be a dispute about what is safer statistically. Of course you can be just fine without, but you increase your odds of staying just fine by having a well performing ABS system. I have no idea if the OEM system will work well in the 818 or not, but I'm sure others will answer that long before I have to make my own decision.

[PhyrraM]

Most ABS up to the 2000s is simply based on wheel speed variations. There is no extra logic or "car specific" programming. In fact if you start looking at manufactures part numbers, many manufactures used the same control modules across multiple model lines until the 2000s. These "dumb" systems can be "lifted" from the donor and dropped into the kit with virtually no impact on how they work/perform.

When manufactures started adding features like traction control and, especially, stability control that's when they start to become vehicle specific. I would not use the ABS from any vehicle that also has those other features.

The WRXs (and STIs) from the donor years ('02-'07) do not have traction or stability controls. They do however have "G" sensors and the STIs were advertized as having some type of "sport" ABS. I would use an early WRX ('02-'04ish) system without concern (I would also balance the brakes traditionally too- leaving the ABS as the safety-net it is supposed to be). I would prolly not use an STI "Sport" ABS system without further research. I'm *guessing* that Subaru uses the "G" sensor to reduce ABS effectiveness when there are lateral loads (cornering) and gain full ABS when there is mainly straight line motion. If that assumption proves true, then that would be good behavoir for the 818 also.

Any Subaru ABS from a '90s donor should also be useable without issues.

[RM1SepEx]

It is a simple fact that a good driver can outbrake ABS... We teach that to teens in the Tire Rack Street Survival program. We teach them both ABS and non-ABS stops.

My 818 will be a fair weather car and part time autocrosser, I won't need ABS and threshold brakeing is a skill EVERYONE should develop. The top is only for when you unexpectedly get caught in the rain.

ABS is a technological crutch dumbing down drivers. I'm not a fan of the varied stability control schemes either... we need to develop better skills not just rely on technology...

I'm a long time autocrosser with experience in mid engined cars, FMods, and karts up to and including a RM1 DD2 two speed shifter geared for 115-120 MPH
I ALWAYS disable ABS and stability schemes to autocross

I had so much fun last year in my 91 Miata all winter... no ABS, snow tires, tons of fun! You can put it anywhere you want and it was almost always on that edge of adhesion. Great practice for your control skills. Excellent chassis balance.

[Evan78]

It is a simple fact that a good driver can outbrake ABS... We teach that to teens in the Tire Rack Street Survival program. We teach them both ABS and non-ABS stops.In all conditions? What do you suggest for bad drivers? ABS or no ABS? What percentage of the population is good enough to outbrake ABS?


The top is only for when you unexpectedly get caught in the rain.I think that's up to the owner of the car. People have varying priorities and tolerances.


ABS is a technological crutch dumbing down drivers. I'm not a fan of the varied stability control schemes either... we need to develop better skills not just rely on technology...

I'm a long time autocrosser with experience in mid engined cars, FMods, and karts up to and including a RM1 DD2 two speed shifter geared for 115-120 MPH
I ALWAYS disable ABS and stability schemes to autocrossDo you disable ABS and stability control while driving on the street? What about for your spouse, kids, parents, grand parents, etc, etc? Would you really prefer we go back to the days of no driving aids, even when you are in a Miata or 818 sharing the road with 5000 lb SUV's? I think it is far too easy to obtain a license in the U.S., but I think we'll progress most when taking advantage of ALL available options.

[Niburu]

please tell me you're not in favor of full AI cars
the thing of nightmares

[Evan78]

Are you talking to me?

I'd love to have a car that could drive itself as an option. My daily commute is 30-40 minutes each way with very few moments of interest. If I could be doing something other than holding the wheel and throttle steady for that time, I would definitively cough up some money for the privilege. People with enough wealth use chauffeurs all the time, I'd love to have my own electronic version if it was affordable and reliable.

Are you against people having that option? What part is giving you nightmares?

[Niburu]

highways full of cars like that give me nightmare, if it comes to pass manual driving will not be an option
safety advocates and government busybodies will see to that
it'll be the end of driving a car with your own abilities except on closed courses

So yes I am totally against people having that option.

[Evan78]

Depends on how much priority we place on that freedom. I would expect even a highway full of autonomous cars to be able to react to something unpredictable like a car with a mechanical failure, a foreign object entering the roadway, etc. A person driving their own car would have to be accounted for in a similar manner. I don't think it'll be decided by safety advocates or government busybodies, but by the whims of the group with the best lobbyists and politicians on their payroll.

[Evan78]

I guess your fear is kind of like living in a big city and using public transportation to get around. If our cars could drive themselves and we didn't have the option of taking the controls ourselves, it would be like having your own subway car that you get in and let someone/something else handle all the details.

[Xusia]

Talking STRICTLY about the street (because the track is whole other thing!)...


It is a simple fact that a good driver can outbrake ABS... We teach that to teens in the Tire Rack Street Survival program. We teach them both ABS and non-ABS stops.

I think a more accurate description would be a "well trained" driver, and I would add that even a well trained driver needs regular practice to "beat" ABS. I'm all for better driver training (who wouldn't be?!?), but the fact is that most drivers 1)Don't care enough; and 2)Don't have a safe way/place to practice. Yes, yes, an enterprising individual can probably find a place if they really tried, but I go back to point #1 that most drivers don't care.

So what are we to do?? Take away their license? While not an unappealing option, I think we all know that just isn't going to happen. Not in THIS country, anyway. So the next best option is something like ABS that acts as a safety net (NOT a crutch) in panic situations.


My 818 will be a fair weather car and part time autocrosser, I won't need ABS and threshold brakeing is a skill EVERYONE should develop. The top is only for when you unexpectedly get caught in the rain.

For you. My intended use is different, as I'm sure others' intended uses are as well.


ABS is a technological crutch dumbing down drivers. I'm not a fan of the varied stability control schemes either... we need to develop better skills not just rely on technology...

While I don't disagree (and I don't think you are wrong), a lifetime of dealing with computers users (I'm in IT) has taught me trying to force appropriate & adequate training just isn't a reality. Such thinking is a fight against human nature, and can't be won. People care mostly about convenience (first) and cost (second). To the masses, all other considerations generally fall far behind those, including safety. Why do think they are always tying to make computers and software easier to use and more intuitive? Training would probably be cheaper to develop - if people would use it! (but they don't - in fact, most don't even look at the instructions or manual, hence the now famous "quick start" guides).

So we are back to the question of what are we to do?...


I'm a long time autocrosser with experience in mid engined cars, FMods, and karts up to and including a RM1 DD2 two speed shifter geared for 115-120 MPH
I ALWAYS disable ABS and stability schemes to autocross

For the track or autocross, I would too. Those are controlled conditions for which you are trained and preparred mentally. A panic stop to avoid an accident is something altogether different.


I had so much fun last year in my 91 Miata all winter... no ABS, snow tires, tons of fun! You can put it anywhere you want and it was almost always on that edge of adhesion. Great practice for your control skills. Excellent chassis balance.

That sounds like fun! I wish everyone was a conscientious and well trained in driving as you! (and I'm being serious)

In closing I would add all "electronic packages" including ABS are getting better all the time (tires too!). The cost of sensors is dwindling, and processors are capable of processing enormous amounts of data from more and more sensors in just milliseconds. To say nothing of the comprehensive algorithms that being developed as a result of massive real world data collection. The point is that in the early days of ABS, it was probably fairly easy for any decent driver to "beat" ABS, but as time goes on, that is changing. We are already at the point where even very good drivers need multiple attempts in controlled conditions to beat ABS.

Case in point, in a recent issue of a motorcycle magazine I read (Sport Rider, IIRC) they were comparing ABS systems and one of the tests they conducted was to see how well those systems performed compared to an expert rider (keep in mind motorcycle ABS systems are not as sophisticated as automobile ABS systems). I know the rider they used - he really is an expert (former racer; not just some schmuck who thinks he's good), and rides for a living; probably close to everyday. It took him something like 8-12 tries to beat the ABS. Based on that, I'm pretty sure *I* couldn't do it unless I got lucky - and I have had the benefit of significantly more training than most riders I know, including Keith Code's California Superbike School (not as much practice as I'd like, though), so where does that leave the average rider?...

It leaves them in need of ABS, just like most drivers.

[Evan78]

Even on track many prefer to keep ABS active to insure they don't flat spot expensive tires.

[RM1SepEx]

In all conditions? What do you suggest for bad drivers? ABS or no ABS? What percentage of the population is good enough to outbrake ABS?

I think that's up to the owner of the car. People have varying priorities and tolerances.

Do you disable ABS and stability control while driving on the street? What about for your spouse, kids, parents, grand parents, etc, etc? Would you really prefer we go back to the days of no driving aids, even when you are in a Miata or 818 sharing the road with 5000 lb SUV's? I think it is far too easy to obtain a license in the U.S., but I think we'll progress most when taking advantage of ALL available options.

about 50% of the drivers on the road are under trained and don't drive safely, they need every aid known to man! :rolleyes::mad::eek:

I lost my license years ago due to my MS, I'm numb from the chest down and have been so for 21 years... It took quite a while to get to where I am, I'm guessing a 90-95 percentile driver. Exercising those skills regularly is the only way to improve. I have the advantage of being in a low population state where you have the seasons and places to explore the edge safely. I use almost every activity that I do as physical therapy to keep my skills sharp, can't afford to do otherwise...

My kids and family all participate in advanced driving programs and autocross. It is a requirement to drive my vehicles and make my wife and I comfortable.

My point is that my 818 will be a vehicle to explore and experience that "edge" of control. I live for a good adrenaline rush, thazt's why I autocross a couple go karts... Any two stroke with front brakes will work to push your driving skills... My 15 year old daughter out paxed me for the first time last Sunday... slower kart only 1 second behind my FTD run. She only has a permit but can out drive about 75% of our regular club drivers. She has been practicing with the correct tools. Her first car is a 91 Miata... No ABS

[Evan78]

I agree, the 818 will be a great car to push to the edge of control and even beyond, in a controlled environment, not on the street.

[RM1SepEx]

of course not on the street...

My point is that here in Maine we have regularly scheduled low traction events (winter), nice curvy roads with elevation changes, a low amount of traffic (NO traffic jams), we enjoy an active schedule of HPDE (High Performance Driving Events) including track days and autocrosses (20 + events a year including autocross with no wheel to wheel racing included.)

Our biggist driving skills problem is that a driver's license doesn't mean that the driver has the skills required to control a car in EMERGENCY situations! So when either by a fault of their own or someone else they push the limits of the car they don't know how to react. Many over react causing tree strikes and roll overs. Teens and young adults die more often from car crashes than any other cause! 70% of the time when one dies, two or more die in that same crash! All due to inexperience!

Drivers need to experience and practice manuevers in a safe environment to "calibrate" their bodies to how it feels and practice the body's muscle control and "feel" the sensations and adrenaline rush. That's where autocross, Street Survival, HPDE etc... come in. You learn these techniques best w/o a new car's stability control systems taking over "dumbing down" the experience.

Once you develop these shkills they just get applied without thinking when needed. Isn't real learning a great thing. I had such a great time "one the edge" with that Miata last winter. It is truely an easy to control car. Once you are comfortable with one you can really almost "dance" on the edge.

[Evan78]

Maybe I made a mistake by assuming that the majority of 818 owners intend to drive the car on the street. Unless specified otherwise, I go into each conversation with that assumption. I'd rather have it available and disable it when desired rather than want it and not have it.

All of your thoughts on driving training are valid, but hardly seem relevant to the decision of whether to install ABS or not.

On the other hand, if a given person is going to be driving an ABS equipped car on a daily basis, shouldn't they be receive a significant amount of training on an ABS equipped car?

[prematureapex]

h6 upgrade

+1...

[RM1SepEx]

Maybe I made a mistake by assuming that the majority of 818 owners intend to drive the car on the street. Unless specified otherwise, I go into each conversation with that assumption. I'd rather have it available and disable it when desired rather than want it and not have it.

All of your thoughts on driving training are valid, but hardly seem relevant to the decision of whether to install ABS or not.

On the other hand, if a given person is going to be driving an ABS equipped car on a daily basis, shouldn't they be receive a significant amount of training on an ABS equipped car?

yes if you desire ABS and have a car with it enabled you need to practice w ABS

I think that you will find most 818's will NOT be daily drivers, especially the initial roadster offering... whole different market for other versions...

[PhyrraM]

I also tend to think that most 818s will be street cars (not neccisarily daily drivers), not track cars.

[RM1SepEx]

:) The ABS will be gone... it's a crutch I don't need :)

Wow I'm amazed at the responces to my original post above... I don't want or need ABS... anyone else can do what they want.
I love driving and being in control of my personal situation. I've been driving for over 30 years and have 100% confidence in my driving skills. I know my limits and capabilities, driving in nasty winter weather even with a RWD vehicle. I want to be in front of those underskilled drivers on the road. I drive a motorcycle too and have a "you need to drive OFFENSIVELY" attitude on the road. That means drive knowing that at any time the other driver may do something stupid, that you don't expect and you need to be able to react and avoid. You need to be able to control your vehicle up to its limits. With a bike, be able to control standing it up on the front wheel, turn at the limits of adhesion etc... with a car brake and turn to the limits turning and braking.

These exercises make you better able to survive the crazy world of dumbed down drivers that don't know what ABS feels lkike. Most drivers upon first feeling ABS let up on the pedal, thinking something is wrong with the car.

You need to practice and become part of the car... drive a curvy road on a clear day in a BMW or Miata... it's great to be alive and enjoying driving

[Xusia]

I'm confused. You said you lost your license, but you are talking about driving on the street. You also said you are numb from the chest down. I could see driving a car with hand controls, but how in world are you riding a motorcycle?

[RM1SepEx]

My hands are as numb as my feet due to MS plaques (sclerosis = scars or plaques) in the myelin, the nerve's insulation of sorts. so hand controls wouldn't help. Tho I did design and fabricate a set for the local indoor karting track's disabled patrons! My brain gets signals slower and with "noise" in the signals to use an electrical analogy.

I had to relearn/recalibrate my brain to deal with those signals. In 1991 I couldn't walk, write my name, use a fork, use a paper cup etc... needless to say my neurologist took my license. Between PT and my own rehabilitation efforts I relearned how to do all those things with my sensory impairment. It took a couple years before I was able to pass the requirements to get the license back and drive again. I learned to walk again at the same time my son did (he's 20 now and taking BioMedical Engineering at RIT) I was diagnosed with MS the same day my wife found out she was pregnant!

My progress is measured in slow steps, It took me 14 years to gain the balance confidence to take up riding a MC again. Finger dexterity and control = 19 years to be able to pick up a dime off the table. I've been autocrossing for 17 years now... I'm top five PAX competitive within our 150 member club. Driving a family sedan, V6 Fiero, an FMod, and a kart too. Notice the progression in difficulty to drive fast... Mid engine has the highest capabilities AND the sharpest "edge" of control.

My simple soln to my health issues... practice what you have difficulty doing!

As far as how numb am I? How do you answer that? Every keystroke on my notebook while I'm drinking my coffee this AM makes my fingers and hands "ring" vibrate like a bell. Feels weird but its what I need to deal with to function. I can't wear gloves to work on my cars, I can't discern the sensations well enough. This means I beat up my hands etc.. I don't realize that I have cut myself untill I see blood. My feet, toes, shins take tons of abuse, I'm continually walking into things and hurting myself, again no realization until I see blood.

I'm hyper viligant (ADD perhaps! ) and I practice continually... I "need" an 818 to step up the capabilities of my ongoing PT! LOL

[flynntuna]

God bless you man! Thats an inspiring story, stories like yours is what makes america great.

[Evan78]

Yes, quite inspirational. It sounds like you've accomplished quite a bit despite the obstacles in your path and lead a fuller life than many of us that have a lot less in our way.


Wow I'm amazed at the responces to my original post above... I don't want or need ABS... anyone else can do what they want.If any of my responses sound confrontational or argumentative, it would be due to any statements I disagree with regarding the technical advantages/disadvantages of ABS. I agree that you should be able to drive without it if that's your preference, but I think everyone should be as informed as possible when making that type of decision, so a healthy discussion of the pros and cons is good for everyone here.

[RM1SepEx]

No offense taken

ABS systems don't take weight into consideration... they use sensors to detect pending lock up and pulse brake line pressure to avoid lock up. They allow anyone to stop without lockup and also allow the Ability to Brake and Steer (ABS) at the same time. Tires can only exert so much force, in total, in all directions. Newer ABS systems do it better, faster, and with less pedal vibration. I remember 1st generation Chrysler ABS... OMG the car is shaking abart with grinding crunching sounds.

By definition it is possible to continually apply brake pressure and stop quicker. Anyone can do it with some practice... One day at a HPDE will get you there... Many noted that they turn ABS off for track events. I want that performance and personal control all the time, street or track.

Drivers without practice and experience will stop faster and with better control with ABS. I just described at least 90-95% of the population. 50 or 60% should NEVER drive without ABS... (50% shouldn't be allowed to drive at all! :rolleyes:) Many don't take the responsibility of driving seriously.

As noted no one will be driving my 818 w/o such driving experience... EVER... My wife, son and soon to be 16 year old daughter have the necessary skills! (she's been autocrossing karts since she was 8) So it won't be on my 818, I don't need it. Just like I don't need air conditioning or a permanent roof... I'm not leaving Maine and my 818 is a fair weather toy. An emergency keep the interior dry top fits my needs perfectly.

We didn't have a discussion of the pros and cons of ABS... we had a reaction to my statement that I consider ABS a crutch for inexperienced drivers.

My MS diagnosis was the best thing that ever happened to me. When you experience the depths you appreciate life and get to focus on what is important. My wife and I are both Mechanical Engineers and both worked long hours chasing the almighty $. MS changed that and made me focus on what was important, family. My degree makes me uniquely qualified to deal with a disease that throws curve balls at you every day. 3 months after I was diagnosed 4 teens were run over and killed by an 18 wheeler on the local interstate... talk about perspective! My disease and problems aren't so bad.

Now I play with my toys and fix mechanical stuff... so far this summer I rebuilt a crashed VFR800, completed a Miata 1.8 engine swap project I bought 1/2 done, built my wife a chicken tractor for 6 laying hens... upgraded my daughter's kart to a KT100 can motor, got my old 69 Sonett project running. 20 years after the original owner rebuilt it! Just a couple items to button up and it will be done too! Just in time for the 818 to get rolling!

[Xusia]

Truly inspirational. I'm glad you've persevered and overcome - that's beyond awesome in my book!

[Niburu]

I guess your fear is kind of like living in a big city and using public transportation to get around. If our cars could drive themselves and we didn't have the option of taking the controls ourselves, it would be like having your own subway car that you get in and let someone/something else handle all the details.
no I rather like public transportation as it mves people about a congested city like Manhattan rather efficiently
but that is public transportation
for my private transportation I want the government hands off the steering wheel
and really would prefer not to be tracked either
now the roads we drive on being publicly owned I fully agree we need rules and regs for

If all the cars are automated and all the roads are merely programmed in routes it sorta sucks the fun out of life in my book.
It's kinda like when they banned smoking in bars, because you know drinking is sooooo healthy for you.

[RM1SepEx]

Yeah but now the drunk that kills you doesn't smell like an ashtray! :-)

Driving is one of life's great pleasures... I want to enjoy it with a direct, indivdual connection to the pavement... That's why I love my old Miatas, E30 BMW and pickup trucks... No fancy traction or stability controls etc.. I want to be held responsible and not just be herded or shuttled around. As that happens we lose some of our freedom and control of our own destiny.

And I have a prepaid phone too w/no GPS tracking. No one has any business in what I do. My older cars have no "black box" to reconstruct where I've been or what I've done either. I have very little trust in the government and what it would do with that information.

If you live in a congested area where public transportation makes sense... go for it... I live in a nice comfortable rural area and I like doing things for myself!

Sunny out today... fire up a bike or choose one of 5 top down autos and go for a drive... 80 miles round trip on a curvy road isn't too far for an ice cream!

[Evan78]

It's kinda like when they banned smoking in bars, because you know drinking is sooooo healthy for you.The important difference between drinking and smoking is that the people around you don't have to share your drink with you.