AWD 818 Consideration???

[xzero]

Hello I am new member been lurking for a while and decided to join.

I understand keeping the weight down is a very important consideration. I know the meaning behind 818 standing for the KG that the vehicle should approximately weigh, but I really would like to know if there has ever been a consideration for a AWD design for this vehicle. Clearly there are plenty of pro's to it and some cons as well.

[shinn497]

AWD has never been considered. The engine position has the tranny facing rearward. To have an AWD system, you would have to reverse this, raise the passenger compartment, and pretty much reengineer the whole car. Its practically impossible.

[BipDBo]

There has actually been a pretty long thread on this already, which exhausted the reply of, "No, can't be done." It could be done, but for what reason? It will have at least 60%, of its weight over the rear wheels, which is ideal for RWD. Formula One cars do pretty well with RWD. The 818 is a great design because it is cheap and simple. It is quick because it is light with a low center of gravity. These are the characteristics that define the 818, all of which would be diminished with any attempt at AWD.

Theoretically, I guess it could be done by abandoning the Subaru boxer engine and transaxle for some sort of custom transverse AWD arrangement. You would have to redesign some of the chassis and the gas tank to get the driveshaft through. It would be very complicated, very expensive, heavier, with a higher center of gravity and probably slower.

There is one possible way to make an AWD 818 that I find intriguing. Drive the rear wheels the standard way with the boxer engine. Drive the front wheels with an electric motor powered by a battery or flywheel, which will also provide regenerative braking. It would be categorized as a through-the-road hybrid.
Audi just won the Le Mans with this design.
http://green.autoblog.com/2012/02/29/audi-unleashes-hybrid-awd-powertrain-on-le-mans-with-new-r18-e/
This is also how the Porsche GT3 R hybrid works.
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/15/porsche-911-gt3-r-hybrid-2-0-first-drive-review/
Batteries and EV components are going to be dropping in price considerably in the next few years, so i look forward to seeing some electrified 818s.

[shinn497]

Bipdbo funny you mention the electric AWD because I was just about to mention that. I've been considering trying it myself, but for a different car.

[SkiRideDrive]

Electric fwd certainly wouldn't be easy, but there is the convenience of the wheel assemblies already being designed to be driven on the wrx. The regenerative portion seems like a tall order, but a simple motor battery setup could prove interesting in a short run type event, perhaps pikes peak.

[Rasmus]

if there has ever been a consideration for a AWD design for this vehicle.
No.

[Mechie3]

Here is one thing I've noticed (as a Subaru owner/autocrosser/groupie)

Lots of autocrossers like turbo and AWD. It's easy to see why. Turbo = fast and cheap and easy upgrades, AWD = easy to put the power down.

Lots of Subaru drivers are able to jump into autocross and quickly out drive their competitors in the Novice class and sometimes in non novice classes. They quickly progress up the ranks. Those with FWD or AWD cars tend to struggle much more at first and take more than a handful of events to get a handle on their car. This leads many to tout AWD as a necessity or even the best.

Those that stick with it, though, soon see that those with AWD tend to peak early and plateau rather quickly while those with RWD (and sometimes FWD) continue to grow and improve and learn fewer bad habits in the short term. The RWD and FWD people then end up out driving the AWD Subarus.

I started out with AWD and shot to the top. In my second season, I won PAX in a region that averaged ~90 competitors per event. I also soon learned the limitations of the front heavy Subaru AWD layout. I moved to Indy where I didn't do as well in field heavy with national champs in various platforms and only averaged top 20 in the same Subary I had in CNY. I switched to Fmod and while it took a while to get used to it, I moved back up and am now top 10 PAX. It's simply a better platform.

While I enjoy (well, enjoyed, car got wrecked) turbo AWD for daily driving and winter use, for performance driving I prefer lightweight RWD.

[Etos]

Definitely not possible with the 818 platform using anything but an electric front.

What would be real nice would be for their next car to take the Lancer EVO platform for AWD for a kit car. Even if it was 2200 pounds that would be well worth having as well. EVOS are stupid easy to make a ton of power. Man that would be nice to have AWD at 400hp in a 2200 pound car.

[StatGSR]

Definitely not possible with the 818 platform using anything but an electric front.

What would be real nice would be for their next car to take the Lancer EVO platform for AWD for a kit car. Even if it was 2200 pounds that would be well worth having as well. EVOS are stupid easy to make a ton of power. Man that would be nice to have AWD at 400hp in a 2200 pound car.

or just gut a 2 door impreza and swap the drive train and call it a day...

[Etos]

or just gut a 2 door impreza and swap the drive train and call it a day...

While not a bad idea isn't the same as a tubular framed 2200 car. One thing most people don't consider is the 2 door imprezas(GC) have the rigidity of a wet noodle requiring alot of braces to match the GDs even. All they do is look at how light and small the car is.

A Lancer EVO based kit car with AWD would be amazing.

[Evan78]

Define "consideration". I imagine the possibility crossed the minds of everyone at FFR working on it, but it adds weight, complexity, and cost. AWD is most beneficial when there is enough power to overcome the available traction. I don't see many people driving the 818 in rain, snow, or dirt, but there will certainly be people that develop plenty of power to make traction an issue on pavement.

Personally, I would love it if there was a lightweight AWD car available, especially with a mid-rear engine setup.

[Oppenheimer]

Search on here and you will find reference to a kit made in England that leaves the WRX AWD intact. Unlike the 818, it leaves the drivetrain position as is. Its a simple roadster, if you had to imagine a production car it resembles, Miata might come to mind.

Its not an EVO, but otherwise it sounds like what you are asking about.

[Evan78]

I believe you're referring to the Murtaya.

[Doc_FFR]

I just came to see you get yelled at for bringing this up again. Please continue. ;)

[JBrown88]

If you are set on AWD though, Protean Electric is gearing up to mass produce hub motors (that's motors inside the wheel). That would give you an option of keeping the AWD functionality either with a hybrid (using fwd) or by simply using 4 hub motors of a full EV. That brings up the issue of unsprung mass though, which is a different discussion.

[Jeff Kleiner]

http://communities.ptc.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/38-1286-6326/DeadHorse.gif

Jeff

[wallace18]

Amen to the last post.

[jsquared]

A Lancer EVO based kit car with AWD would be amazing.
You still have the same problem, you can get drive to the front without a major transaxle re-engineer or having it rear-engined (e.g. 911) and figure out a way to reverse the differentials...

RWD in a mid-engined car is about as good as it gets... this coming from an STi owner :D

[Etos]

You still have the same problem, you can get drive to the front without a major transaxle re-engineer or having it rear-engined (e.g. 911) and figure out a way to reverse the differentials...

RWD in a mid-engined car is about as good as it gets... this coming from an STi owner :D

Who said anything about a mid engine setup? I don't see any reason a kit car focused around AWD and a Lancer EVO as a donor wouldn't be possible. I'd take that any day over an 818. Not belittling the 818 in any way, I just like the idea of a sub 2500 pound AWD car with 300-400HP.

[BipDBo]

It would be theoretically possible to go to a rear engine arrangement like this:
http://www.vdi-racing.nl/cross/pagina.php?a=project&pid=52
It's a buggy that has a rear mounted, 400 hp, 2.6 liter naterurally aspirated, hayabusaderived "Hartley" V8. The great thing about the Hartley V8 is that it's insanely light, only 200#! It also produces it's 400 hp at 10,000 rpm and peaks its torque at only 245 ft-lbs. The high rpm and low torque allow it to be handled by transmissions that would normally be fitted to much less powerful engines, but speciafically smaller, lighter transmissions. The bad thing about the Hartley V8 is the $30,000 price.

The transaxle is 6 speed, sequential, and if I remember right, comes from Xtac. It's configurable to spin the wheels either way, so that you can you it for front mounted (like the WRX) or rear mounted like this. It maybe possible for someone who knows much better than I what they're doing to convert a WRX transaxle to spin the wheels the other way so that it can point forward. The problem is a Subaru boxer weighs a bit more than Hartley, so the weight displacement would be shifted even farther back. The front wheels would tend to spin alot.

[shinn497]

If the hartley is lighter, wouldn't that push more weight forward?

[jimgood]

It's obviously not going to be the 818 so that's pointless to discuss.

I've always wanted to just take a stock WRX, measure all the attachment points for the drivetrain and suspension then build a tube frame around those measurements. I'd replace the front struts with an upper control arm and coilover. Move the intercooler to lower the overall engine height. Then I'd stare at it for years because I have zero talent for designing a body and zero desire to mess with fiberglass.

[Benji]

Sadev SC90-24/1702 RAID or Sadev SC90-20/150

[shinn497]

jim good the 818 will come with double A's on the front and multilinks on the back with coilovers. It won't use the struts from the WRX. :D This is standard too, at least I hope. Check the description page if you don't believe me.

[Evan78]

Sadev SC90-24/1702 RAID or Sadev SC90-20/150Cool, any idea on how much those guys cost?

[Benji]

Probably about two or three times the cost of an 818 kit and I doubt it would be suitable with the boxer engine, now a small V6 on the other hand.....

[bugeye_fever]

It's obviously not going to be the 818 so that's pointless to discuss.

I've always wanted to just take a stock WRX, measure all the attachment points for the drivetrain and suspension then build a tube frame around those measurements. I'd replace the front struts with an upper control arm and coilover. Move the intercooler to lower the overall engine height. Then I'd stare at it for years because I have zero talent for designing a body and zero desire to mess with fiberglass.

I think you should do that with the older GC chassis! Post up a video of you driving that go cart around and I'm sure you'd have people lining up to design a body.

[jimgood]

I think you should do that with the older GC chassis! Post up a video of you driving that go cart around and I'm sure you'd have people lining up to design a body.
LOL...yeah I should...with all my spare time I could have it done in 10 or 15 years.

[PhyrraM]

http://en.subaruclub.cz/graphics/user_images/2131/full/1911_8549_978_2005-subaru-brough-stiatv-sti-powered-atv-a-640.jpg

Or

http://bxv.co.nz/user-content/112-l-subzilla__shots__072.jpg

[BipDBo]

http://en.subaruclub.cz/graphics/user_images/2131/full/1911_8549_978_2005-subaru-brough-stiatv-sti-powered-atv-a-640.jpg



LOL! That's one of the craziest things I've ever seen. I don't think there are many better ways to die! The spoiler is a nice touch. How about some long suspension travel and some mud tires? Paint it black or camo and give it a hood mounted gatlin gun! "Honey, Goin huntin'! Be back in 10 minutes."

[jsquared]

^ I have a video somewhere of that thing in action! Might be on my external HDD that's buried in the storage room, though.


Who said anything about a mid engine setup? I don't see any reason a kit car focused around AWD and a Lancer EVO as a donor wouldn't be possible. I'd take that any day over an 818. Not belittling the 818 in any way, I just like the idea of a sub 2500 pound AWD car with 300-400HP.
Ah, that's what I get for making assumptions :D You could do an STi drivetrain swap into a GC-chassis coupe and end up with those numbers, no engineering and barely any fabrication required. Or copy the body for the Prodrive P1 :cool:

[BipDBo]

Definitely not possible with the 818 platform using anything but an electric front.

What would be real nice would be for their next car to take the Lancer EVO platform for AWD for a kit car. Even if it was 2200 pounds that would be well worth having as well. EVOS are stupid easy to make a ton of power. Man that would be nice to have AWD at 400hp in a 2200 pound car.

Well if you have $150,000, and you don't need something road legal, you can get a Palatov D1.
The D1, when available, will have 430hp, AWD and weigh just 1,100 lbs.
10874
http://www.palatov.com/cars/d1.html

[2006 WRB 818]

^ I have a video somewhere of that thing in action! Might be on my external HDD that's buried in the storage room, though.


Just go to youtube and type in "sti atv". It's the second video listed.