New Development & Engineering Images on Factory Five Website

[FFR-ADV]

There are new development images on the FFR website under the Photo Gallery.

Would someone please post them here?

I have only iPhone access for a few weeks and the FFR website does not let me zoom in on these images. Thanks for your help!

Cheers!

[FFR-ADV]

Clarification: my browser does not let me zoom

Cheers!

[soul strife]

I can't post them from work but, the red car looks damn good. This is going to be a nice car.

[Martin]

I can't post them from work but, the red car looks damn good. This is going to be a nice car.

Can you post a link?

I can't see any new pictures.

Martin

[Etos]

Hardtop!

http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/818concepts.jpg

Upon closer review aren't those the small scale? I didn't find any new images?

[Martin]

Those are the old "new" images that I thought I found a few weeks ago.

I don't think anything new will be getting published before SEMA.

Martin

[305mouse]

Those are two of the older models drawn up from contest design winners. There are couple nice cad images posted now though. That red one is Jim's model that was silver at first.

[FFR-ADV]

http://www.factoryfive.com/galleries/project-818/#

I really like the red one as well!

Try Red it's the new Blue...

Cheers!

[WIS89]

I gotta tell you guys, that we keep getting closer to that "hair on fire" goal, if you ask me!!

I cannot wait to see the final version!!! I also volunteer to be a beta builder!! ;o)

Regards,

Steve

[SkiRideDrive]

This is the first rear shot I've seen of the body. That bottom dark portion looks like it could be trimmed and replace by a diffuser or the extra length of that 6 speed some people wanted to use. Also, the red rendering has the windshield installed, I'm willing to be that's pretty close to the "street version." The image is small (from a lcd display) but it looks as if the doors are a bit more inset, giving the side view a bit more character. The render does seem to be a bit lacking in rollover protection however.

[Oppenheimer]

Not seeing the pic of the rear shot. Only saw the front 3/4 view of the red street version.

[SkiRideDrive]

http://www.factoryfive.com/galleries/project-818/#

choose engineering gallery on the right, there a blue and white body in which you can see the rear.

[shim2]

http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/818concept1street.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/818swrender.jpg

[SkiRideDrive]

Ah! I totally missed that one.

[shinn497]

10723107241072510726

Here they are. The one that is red and by a city is a concept render, the others are development renders.

One things I'm noticing is that the middle part of the hood is sunk in. It is not smooth, as it seems in the 818-R photo. I think this make for much more exotic and sleek look. In addition, it seems as though the front body will extend much further out than the back. I can't but wonder if this is to balance out the weight. The enginering photos are clearly from an earlier build. You can tell because of the side fenders. Those have been smoothed out in more recent drawings. So take the view from behind with a gran of salt. Anyway the engineering photos are meh, but the concept render is WOW. I think this is because I wished they would do something about the extended frame. I can see why it isn't a dual hump, but maybe some chrome or powder coating would do it wonders.

[ehansen007]

Jim (or someone else) has been set on those wheels from the beginning for some reason. They look really light and racy so maybe that's it... I'm not sure it's the best wheel to show off the body though and wheels can do everything for a car. Here are couple more options that will fit Subaru lug patterns.

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac177/ehansen007/Help%20Topics/818concept1street3.jpg

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac177/ehansen007/Help%20Topics/818concept1street2.jpg

[07FIREBLADE]

Damn.... I'm loving this red car with the new set of wheels.... Get that cage powder coated and some nice aftermarket seats and your golden. Who do I make this check out too...

[Zodiac]

loving the car. The red looks great but I have been curious as to how it will look in orange if any ones willing to do some photoshoping haha

I do kinda wish the side vents extended more to the front of the car and the front bumper was a little more aggressive but that's just me being picky lol. The car us great and I can't wait for SEMA and the car to finally be released.

[shinn497]

Do you know what wheels they are? I think he chose the lightest possible ones.

[bugeye_fever]

Enkei RPF1's, and they are really light and racy!
http://www.enkei.com/rpf1.html

[07FIREBLADE]

Yeah they may be lightweight but they are not doing this car justice IMO. We need some crazy offset and this car needs to be stanced and low. Its just begging for it.

[bugeye_fever]

Ooh no... lol

I'm sure this thing won't have a problem getting low if that's what your after, no fender liners to worry about, already got a fully adjustable suspension. Be kinda hard to pull fiberglass fenders though!

[FFR-ADV]

Thanks shim2 and shinn497!

I like it even better now that I can fill my little iPhone screen with it

Congratulation Jim and team. Nice work!

[ehansen007]

loving the car. The red looks great but I have been curious as to how it will look in orange if any ones willing to do some photoshoping haha

I do kinda wish the side vents extended more to the front of the car and the front bumper was a little more aggressive but that's just me being picky lol. The car us great and I can't wait for SEMA and the car to finally be released.

Sure, here you go. Here's a quickie. While we're at it, how about blue too?

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac177/ehansen007/Help%20Topics/818concept1street4.jpg

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac177/ehansen007/Help%20Topics/818concept1street5.jpg

And of course, any self respecting Subie-fan would have to pay homage with this. These colors made the Impreza the famous car that it was back in the early WRC days still continues.

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac177/ehansen007/Help%20Topics/818concept1street6.jpg

[wallace18]

The red car is awesome! I can not wait for SEMA. I too am ready with a check. This will be a fun and cool car to build. Thanks FFR for the crumbs.

[bugeye_fever]

Mmmm, gold on blue... now your speaking my language!

[FFR-ADV]

That Molten Gold is so hot!!!

And I have always liked blue. Choosing color is going to be dificult. I may need to get three. LOL

Thanks for doing those colorations.

[riptide motorsport]

I like the angular mirrors.....wonder what theyre off of?

[RM1SepEx]

I'm wondering about the little roll bar "humps" as shown on both renditions (street and "R version") they don't meet any track req. that I know of... I'd like to see the bar higher all the way across, higher than the top of the seats and perhaps a hair lower than the windscreen...

just need to keep plugging away at donor parts... make sure that they are ready to bolt in... powdercoating starts soon... :cool::)

[FFR-ADV]

I wonder if FFR would make a gold metallic gel coat finish available similar to the GT40 in the Mothers Car Care adds? I love that multi tone Molten Gold in the rendering above, but don't see it in the cards as a gel coat (maybe a vinyl wrap?)

Cheers!

www.mothers.com

Ps. Would someone please post the image of Jesper working on a headlight on CAD? Thanks!

[FFR-ADV]

Hmmm.....

If the blue and white panels shown in the CAD image are separate panels, then maybe they could be mixed and matched to create effects like the two color blue and white 818r race car poster as well as a large number of other combinations? A A A A Swatch Car.....

Cheers!

[Silvertop]

Yeah they may be lightweight but they are not doing this car justice IMO. We need some crazy offset and this car needs to be stanced and low. Its just begging for it.

One caveat. Given the under 10K pricing target of the 818, it is unlikely that these wheels (or any other) will be included in the base kit. The base wheels for use with the 818 will likely be the Subie factory wheels, which the builder will get from his donor car.

Builders will be free to buy any wheel of appropriate size and bolt pattern that suits their fancy, of course. But it will be an added cost.

Just my .02.

[Silvertop]

"Hmmm.....

If the blue and white panels shown in the CAD image are separate panels, then maybe they could be mixed and matched to create effects like the two color blue and white 818r race car poster as well as a large number of other combinations? A A A A Swatch Car....."


There's an exciting thought!!!!!!!!!! Here's hoping!!

[ehansen007]

One caveat. Given the under 10K pricing target of the 818, it is unlikely that these wheels (or any other) will be included in the base kit. The base wheels for use with the 818 will likely be the Subie factory wheels, which the builder will get from his donor car.

Builders will be free to buy any wheel of appropriate size and bolt pattern that suits their fancy, of course. But it will be an added cost.

Just my .02.

Wheels are never included in any FFR car. They may be an option though. And these wheels I've shown above are actually knock offs from www.wheeldude.com. They come in under $1000 for a set of four. I'm betting that because of the less-than-exciting 16" alloys that come with a most Subarus, you'll see more custom wheels than stock. Sure, most rollers and go-carts will have them but once that body goes on with those nice flared fenders those tiny wheels will come off faster than you can make an air gun noise! But That's the fun of it! I also believe a lot of they guys out there will throw some Star Specs on the stock wheels for track days and have a nicer set of premium wheels for the street. I know I would. I just hope I don't see any "stretched" applications and these insanely low cars that compete while going through a dip in a parking lot! This is meant to be a true performance car. :)

As good as you may think this looks, join me in saying "Hell no to that!" :p

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac177/ehansen007/818concept1street7.jpg

[07FIREBLADE]

Lol never been a fan of the completely tucked VIP club. There is a guy in my neighboorhood that has a old gs300 tucked and he's always having problem getting over speed bumps. Don't get me started on this subject.

[shinn497]

But you don't understand....

Offset is everything. Haters can't handle.

[Sultan]

I love that the 818 looks like a FFR car.

[StatGSR]

if its not hella flush, im not interested....:rolleyes:

[shim2]

if its not hella flush, im not interested....:rolleyes:

hahahaha.

Also, in that render the front looks a lot shorter than the 818R render. I like it.

[blueafro]

I've not been too enthused by the blue-and-white renderings, especially the very long nose, but I've also been following the project since it was first mentioned on GRM, so inevitably my expectations were going to exceed results to some degree. A while back, I showed the renderings to some friends, and they all thought it looked either okay or pretty nice.

The body looks a lot better in a solid color than it did in blue and white. Ergo, I expect the general populace will respond to it reasonably well. The design could probably be better, but FF will still manage to sell them as fast as they can make them.

[GUNS]

I have to say, I think the new red rendering with the city backdrop looks awesome! I don't know if it's just a higher viewing angle, or if FFR made design changes (looks like it when compared to the 818R) but the front looks much lower and shorter which really gives it that mid-engine sports car look it was missing. I think it has a lot of potential and I can't wait to see more angles and the real car.

Well done Dave and the Team and sorry i was a naysayer, you guys know what you are doing.

[ehansen007]

But you don't understand....

Offset is everything. Haters can't handle.

Yeah and neither can ball joints. :eek:

[bobzdar]

http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/818concept1street.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/818swrender.jpg

The rear looks like a f355 and the front isn't getting any better. It looked better in blue and white. I was a bit on the fence but seeing the front in solid red, it just doesn't look good.

[shim2]

Looks good to me!

[SkiRideDrive]

Yea, I mean the first time I saw the $10,000 price tag, I wasn't expecting it to come with a body at all. This looks like a hell of a deal to me. I'm really curious about the color offerings and how the surface finish will be on the panels. I am definitely excited to not have to do bodywork, not a fan.

[tcarlson]

Thanks for posting these pictures looking at the left rear of both the black convertible and black and blue 818. I'm wondering if the hardtop roof is removable. Even if not, the shape is really neat looking. This car is going to be great... Affordable, stylish and excellent performance with a weight of 1800 lbs! Simply awesomeness again from Factory Five.

[shinn497]

tcarlson, those are pics from concept models. They have in no way been confirmed for the current debut model.

[flytosail]

That Molten Gold is so hot!!!

And I have always liked blue. Choosing color is going to be dificult. I may need to get three. LOL

Thanks for doing those colorations.

Only problem with that color ie. gold is having to drive around with your hat sideways. On the good part, you will get all the attention that you ever wanted.

[RM1SepEx]

I'm thinking Portugese Orange... Matches my 1975 Yamaha RD350B two stroke... very visable... close to an old GM orange engine paint...:cool::)

[Flamshackle]

Long time no post.

Love it from the widow back...


I think it looks better in blue and white. The stickers and white stripe mitigated some of the issues of the front looking so uninspired.

In my opinion the front looks tacky/awful but time will tell.

Maybe better renderings, seeing it in the flesh etc.

[Rockraven]

After watching this project unfold since its inception, I'm now going to say "thank-you, but no thank-you". This is still the best kit car company in the world, and I will go back to looking at the MkIV as my upcoming project car. I just cannot warm to the front end of the 818 as designed. I'm really trying not to be petty, but I have to like it if I'm paying the money. Maybe there'll be a version I'll like later in the product development, and thanks for the excitement this past 18 or so months.
TK

[2006 WRB 818]

After watching this project unfold since its inception, I'm now going to say "thank-you, but no thank-you". This is still the best kit car company in the world, and I will go back to looking at the MkIV as my upcoming project car. I just cannot warm to the front end of the 818 as designed. I'm really trying not to be petty, but I have to like it if I'm paying the money. Maybe there'll be a version I'll like later in the product development, and thanks for the excitement this past 18 or so months.
TK

Just remember, these are just renderings. We won't see the final product until SEMA. We might be pleasantly surprised. I, for one, am currently a fan. Keep up the great work Dave!

[Rockraven]

Just remember, these are just renderings. We won't see the final product until SEMA. We might be pleasantly surprised. I, for one, am currently a fan. Keep up the great work Dave!

I'm still a massive fan of FFR... have been since they first began some 17 years ago, and I still plan to build one of their products. I realize there'll be more versions of the 818, so I'm still optimistic. Looking forward to SEMA.

[Gary in NJ]

I like the looks of the red car. I don't think it's "hair-on-fire" but I'm more interested in what's under the skin. Besides (and as mentioned just a few posts above) this is just a rendering. I'll reserve my judgement of "like it" or "love it" until I can see the final shape in person.

[agepag]

After watching this project unfold since its inception, I'm now going to say "thank-you, but no thank-you". This is still the best kit car company in the world, and I will go back to looking at the MkIV as my upcoming project car. I just cannot warm to the front end of the 818 as designed. I'm really trying not to be petty, but I have to like it if I'm paying the money. Maybe there'll be a version I'll like later in the product development, and thanks for the excitement this past 18 or so months.
TK

I with you on this one, I really hope they tweek it because something just dosn't look right. It looks abit too much like the Toyota MRS, which isnt a bad thing, but I hope it gets more of an aggresive look to it. THis waiting around is killing me! Walking Dead, Sons of Anachy and sema show...

[Zodiac]

i'm assuming the scoop/vent in the back on top are for the intercooler. anyone else feel it's not a big enough scoop to get a good amount of air in? I couldd be wrong. however it would be nice if it looked like the one off a Ferrari Challenge Stradale

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wolfheadfilms/142164298/

[shim2]

I think it's the right size, any bigger and I think it would look funny. Pretty confident FFR is going to knock this one out of the park.

[SkiRideDrive]

i'm assuming the scoop/vent in the back on top are for the intercooler. anyone else feel it's not a big enough scoop to get a good amount of air in? I couldd be wrong. however it would be nice if it looked like the one off a Ferrari Challenge Stradale

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wolfheadfilms/142164298/

I was a bit curious about that myself as well. Not sure exactly how they plan on routing enough air to the I/C.

[Kwizatz-haderah]

The rear looks like a f355 and the front isn't getting any better. It looked better in blue and white. I was a bit on the fence but seeing the front in solid red, it just doesn't look good.

If you don't like the front, when you build it modify-modify-modify. The best part of building FFR Cars is the ability to come up with mods as you go through the build process. I definitely plan to mod the heck out of mine.

[shim2]

I'm thinking of adding real windows to mine. If money allows it maybe a folding soft top.

[Zodiac]

I was thinking the same thing. I want to find a way to mount the window motor and railing and then bam got a power window.
looking into maybe lexan if I can but probably gonna have to take a coup window and cut to fit. not sure the process yet but something for future at least

[Oppenheimer]

If you don't like the front, when you build it modify-modify-modify. The best part of building FFR Cars is the ability to come up with mods as you go through the build process. I definitely plan to mod the heck out of mine.

Yes, but then you lose the no-paint option. A compelling part of what makes the 818 so appealing for many.

[jsquared]

The white/blue car's front end just doesn't look good. It reminds me of a later-2nd-gen Hyundai Tiberon. The red car with the 06-07 WRX headlights looks far better IMO, and I kind of like the white rendering that has a 99+ RX-7 look to it.

[metalmaker12]

I like the overall design of the car. The front could be more lotus/Porsche looking with more air vents like the red scale FFR model, but it looks good enough to take home as is. The rest of the car is very well designed so I give it a 92 out of 100. I think air is coming in behind the seats and coming out that vent above the rear lights.

[0100]

Still not feeling the front end, actually even less then the blue white version. That is why I plan on going black. I think it will look badass in black.

[timmy318]

Sam here, I'm thinking of adding some chrome flames along the side of the car

[el_jefe]

Needs more front ducting for brake and oil cooling

[StatGSR]

^ why would you bring oil to the front of the car? also I think its guna be hard to cook a decent brake pad in this car.

[Xusia]

The more views of the car I see, the more I like it. I like the fact it more hints at being exotic, rather than screaming it and being all in your face about it. I trust FFR knows what they are doing when it comes to ducts, vents, and the like (as far as function goes; aesthetics is subjective). They didn't become the #1 kit car manufacturer by being dopes...

[shim2]

You don't need oil cooling. I can't honestly see a reason other than cool factor.

[Etos]

You don't need oil cooling. I can't honestly see a reason other than cool factor.

That depends on what the use is. For a track car oil cooling is very important. Especially when the radiator is so far away from the engine. A stock 08+ STi can overheat the engine on the track with a good enough driver.

[shim2]

What does the radiator have to do with engine oil?

With the radiator far away from the engine it helps the coolant cool down. Look at the MK2 MR2. Same design, radiator up front engine in the back. Never had problems with overheating, ever.

Yes a stock STI can overheat because everything is crammed in one spot. 818 completely changes that. I can guarantee you an oil cooler is 100% unnecessary. Keep in mind you do want some temperature in the engine oil for it to properly lubricate.

[PhyrraM]

The STI has a stock oil-to-water heat exchanger. I believe most WRXs do also. That should keep oil temps under control as long as water temps are.

I also think that many folks are expressing recommendations and thoughts based on WRX/STI experience and tend to forget that the 818 is at least 800 pounds lighter.

[Etos]

What does the radiator have to do with engine oil?

With the radiator far away from the engine it helps the coolant cool down. Look at the MK2 MR2. Same design, radiator up front engine in the back. Never had problems with overheating, ever.

Yes a stock STI can overheat because everything is crammed in one spot. 818 completely changes that. I can guarantee you an oil cooler is 100% unnecessary. Keep in mind you do want some temperature in the engine oil for it to properly lubricate.

It has more water to push with more elbows putting a strain IMO. There's a massive difference from cruising to constantly being WOT for half an hour.

It's also kind of foolish to say cause the MR2 had this there's no problem. Stock 05-07 STis tend not to have an overheating problem with fair weather on the track and that's having a near identical setup to the 08+. The radiator on the 08's is the actual problem for overheating. Then when you crank up the power you are definitely going to have cooling issues as EJs run very hot. They are extremely hard to keep cool at higher HP on the track.

What does having everything crammed in 1 spot even mean? Know what changes the 818 would bring? No air passing through the engine compartment. Just a little air ontop for the intercooler but nothing else. How does this help in anyway to cool it? If anything I can see it being harder to keep an 818 cooled since it's engine compartment might as well be a partially opened oven.

If the car is not going to see any track time then I agree a cooler is worthless. It will not be worthless for the track junkies and is very misleading to say it will be.


The STI has a stock oil-to-water heat exchanger. I believe most WRXs do also. That should keep oil temps under control as long as water temps are.

I also think that many folks are expressing recommendations and thoughts based on WRX/STI experience and tend to forget that the 818 is at least 800 pounds lighter.

Like you just said, it's a heat exchanger, not a cooler. That has absolutely no cooling function at all and is suppose to help with oil warm up from a cold start. Past that it does nothing and most people actually take it off when they use a real oil cooler since they don't want it warming up the oil they just cooled.

And regardless of the weight, it's still a subaru engine and it will not act any differently if it was a subaru car, kit car or chainsaw motor. Are we really gonna open a can of worms that now the engine will have less strain due to weight too now? Cmon...

[el_jefe]

I'm not a fan of oil/water heat exchangers, most are tied to the radiator so if one temp starts to take off, it takes the other with it. I've seen the difference an oil cooler makes on cars lighter than this, hell, most sport bikes have an oil cooler. Not that I need the back up, but Porsche runs oil coolers on the front of the car as well.

Regarding brake cooling, for street and auto-x, no they aren't needed. But on any serious track session, if you drive aggressively enough you can cook the brakes. I'd rather have the option to add it rather than have to cut the front of the car up.

[Niburu]

It has more water to push with more elbows putting a strain IMO. ...
Not really, if you you were incresing the head on the pump that would certainly stress it. Pushing some more coolant laterally shouldn't be more than a belt driven impeller can handle easily.
Grnated there will indeed be increased load but I doubt another gallon or 2 is gonna slow the flow rate at all either.

[shim2]

What does having everything crammed in 1 spot even mean? Know what changes the 818 would bring? No air passing through the engine compartment. Just a little air ontop for the intercooler but nothing else. How does this help in anyway to cool it? If anything I can see it being harder to keep an 818 cooled since it's engine compartment might as well be a partially opened oven.

I refer to the mr2 because it's fairly similar in design. Liquid cooled engines don't need air flowing over them to help them cool There are no fins on liquid cooled engines so having air flow over them is a bit redundant. Coolant displaces the heat in liquid cooled engines not air. Just about every mid engine car ever made has the radiator up front and the engine in the back. Last time I checked they really don't have cooling issues. What you're saying is a flat 4 will be harder to cool than a flat 6 twin turbo Porsche engine? Keep in mind the 993tt was air cooled and that car would have to sit in traffic at a dead stop for 30+ minutes before it would overheat.

Everything crammed in one spot, meaning FR Radiator is up with the engine. The hot air coming off the radiator cooling the coolant just goes in and around the compartment. Whereas with MR you have the radiator up front and the engine in the back. By time the coolant gets to the radiator it's already tons cooler and when it circles back to the engine it's very cool, I'm 100% sure it's cooler than the temp on the WRX would be. I don't see how you can't compare the 818 to the MR2 in this sense. It's almost the exact same design.

[StatGSR]

Not that I need the back up, but Porsche runs oil coolers on the front of the car as well.

Porsche also ran air cooled engines in the back of cars well into the mid 90s......

in any case, you should not be adding an additional oil cooler unless you are also monitoring oil temp (and find it to be getting too high), if your oil is too cool, you will actually increase wear and decrease performance.


this is why internal heat exchangers are liked by many manufacturers, the water will warm the oil at first and cool it later, the only problem is when the system becomes "overcome" because of its relatively small exchange area, which can happen pretty easily when you are dealing with turbos that are only oil cooled and what not.

[PhyrraM]

And regardless of the weight, it's still a subaru engine and it will not act any differently if it was a subaru car, kit car or chainsaw motor. Are we really gonna open a can of worms that now the engine will have less strain due to weight too now? Cmon...

Nope, not saying there is less stress on the motor. I'm saying that you spend less time at WOT in the lighter car.

[Silvertop]

nope, not saying there is less stress on the motor. I'm saying that you spend less time at wot in the lighter car.

wot?

[Niburu]

Wide Open Throttle

[Etos]

I refer to the mr2 because it's fairly similar in design. Liquid cooled engines don't need air flowing over them to help them cool There are no fins on liquid cooled engines so having air flow over them is a bit redundant. Coolant displaces the heat in liquid cooled engines not air. Just about every mid engine car ever made has the radiator up front and the engine in the back. Last time I checked they really don't have cooling issues. What you're saying is a flat 4 will be harder to cool than a flat 6 twin turbo Porsche engine? Keep in mind the 993tt was air cooled and that car would have to sit in traffic at a dead stop for 30+ minutes before it would overheat.

Everything crammed in one spot, meaning FR Radiator is up with the engine. The hot air coming off the radiator cooling the coolant just goes in and around the compartment. Whereas with MR you have the radiator up front and the engine in the back. By time the coolant gets to the radiator it's already tons cooler and when it circles back to the engine it's very cool, I'm 100% sure it's cooler than the temp on the WRX would be. I don't see how you can't compare the 818 to the MR2 in this sense. It's almost the exact same design.

I first want to point out how you are saying one thing then another in the bold. If the radiant air temp is non factor how come it is for the hot air coming off the radiator into the engine bay? Cool air in the engine bay doesn't cool the engine, you're right about that. But hot air being stuck in the engine bay doesn't let it expel heat well and can make it hard to cool the engine. There are those vents on each side so they might be used to have air move through the engine bay.

The coolant won't be that much more cool going front to back. A little bit? Sure. Also remember we have thermostats that actually block flow to the radiator to keep the coolant a certain temperature.

You can't compare a factory OEM super car maker to a kit car. So what if a Porsche can do it? They are the only OEM to warranty a car used on the track and cost 50k starting. That's like saying you should have the same expectations from a miata as a corvette cause they use similar designs. Understand the EJs are very hard to cool when you crank up the power for track use. Will we really see any issue with cooling using OEM equipment? Maybe, maybe not. The GD radiators aren't bad so in all likelyhood for the power most will see it most likely will never be an issue for most.

[Silvertop]

Wide Open Throttle

Duh. Got it.

[shim2]

I first want to point out how you are saying one thing then another in the bold. If the radiant air temp is non factor how come it is for the hot air coming off the radiator into the engine bay? Cool air in the engine bay doesn't cool the engine, you're right about that. But hot air being stuck in the engine bay doesn't let it expel heat well and can make it hard to cool the engine. There are those vents on each side so they might be used to have air move through the engine bay.

The coolant won't be that much more cool going front to back. A little bit? Sure. Also remember we have thermostats that actually block flow to the radiator to keep the coolant a certain temperature.

You can't compare a factory OEM super car maker to a kit car. So what if a Porsche can do it? They are the only OEM to warranty a car used on the track and cost 50k starting. That's like saying you should have the same expectations from a miata as a corvette cause they use similar designs. Understand the EJs are very hard to cool when you crank up the power for track use. Will we really see any issue with cooling using OEM equipment? Maybe, maybe not. The GD radiators aren't bad so in all likelyhood for the power most will see it most likely will never be an issue for most.

The EJ's are very hard to cool in a wrx when you crank up the power. no one has any idea if this will apply when you move the engine to the back like FFR did with the 818. No way to know until someone actually does it. Everything else is speculation.

[el_jefe]

Porsche also ran air cooled engines in the back of cars well into the mid 90s......

in any case, you should not be adding an additional oil cooler unless you are also monitoring oil temp (and find it to be getting too high), if your oil is too cool, you will actually increase wear and decrease performance.


this is why internal heat exchangers are liked by many manufacturers, the water will warm the oil at first and cool it later, the only problem is when the system becomes "overcome" because of its relatively small exchange area, which can happen pretty easily when you are dealing with turbos that are only oil cooled and what not.


I have more than a little bit of experience with air cooled cars. . .

As mentioned repeatedly, heat exchangers dont do much of anything to cool oil. I'm not concerned about my oil being below operating temperature (especially on a turbo car), I'm concerned about long periods of WOT and abuse from the exceptionally high heat and potential of coking from the turbo. Will everyone need brake ducting and oil cooling? Hardly. But the serious track cars will be looking into it. I will be running an oil cooler for certain.

[Nelff]

I chatted with a FRPP engineer and he said that the reason that they started using an oil to water heat exchanger on Mustangs was to bring the oil temp UP to operating temperatures faster. After that, there is some cooling that happens through the water cooling system but, mostly it controls the temp spikes in the oil. After the temps come up, say after a full power blast, the oil is hot and the excess temp does cool down into the water system. This is very valuable in a turbocharged system where the thermal mass is distributed into the water system out of the engine and the turbo.

[jsquared]

why would you bring oil to the front of the car?
Better airflow by FAR, same reason most mid-engined cars have front radiators. As mentioned, Porsche has been running oil coolers up front for decades, even with the water-cooled cars.


With the radiator far away from the engine it helps the coolant cool down. Look at the MK2 MR2. Same design, radiator up front engine in the back. Never had problems with overheating, ever.
You obviously don't know much about the MkII MR-2, then, or you'd know that the 3S-GTE is prone to warping cylinder heads and Toyota redesigned the heads (specifically the coolant passages) for the GenIII engine in the 96-98 JDM-only MR2 turbos.


I can guarantee you an oil cooler is 100% unnecessary. Keep in mind you do want some temperature in the engine oil for it to properly lubricate.
Care to back that guarantee up with a warranty? Any turbo car that sees track work needs an oil cooler. Oil thermostats prevent overcooling.


The STI has a stock oil-to-water heat exchanger. I believe most WRXs do also. That should keep oil temps under control as long as water temps are.
You must be joking. This is mainly to warm the oil after cold start up, under high-load conditions this will do damn near nothing to keep oil temps down.


Not really, if you you were incresing the head on the pump that would certainly stress it. Pushing some more coolant laterally shouldn't be more than a belt driven impeller can handle easily.
It's not the extra few gallons, it's the frictional losses from pumping through significantly more hose and joins. Firetruck operators have to do math on the fly depending on how much hose they are using and what sizes and junctions so they know how much higher to run the pump to get proper pressure at the nozzle, even on level ground. Most people that install front-mounted oil coolers on old Porsches (that are using an engine that didn't come with a front-mount oil cooler from the factory) get an uprated oil pump or at least change the relief valve to run more pressure to compensate for pumping losses through all that hose.


I refer to the mr2 because it's fairly similar in design. Liquid cooled engines don't need air flowing over them to help them cool There are no fins on liquid cooled engines so having air flow over them is a bit redundant. Coolant displaces the heat in liquid cooled engines not air. Just about every mid engine car ever made has the radiator up front and the engine in the back. Last time I checked they really don't have cooling issues.
You need to do a hell of a lot more research or talk to a lot more people who work with race cars. Most mid-engined cars have front radiators because of two factors: airflow and packaging. It's a lot easier to fit a radiator at the front than to split it and keep it in the rear, do that and you end up with a car with a 6-foot wide rear end and gigantic side radiator inlets (see: Ferrari Testarossa/512M) Lack of airflow through an engine bay will NOTICEABLY increase engine temps even if the car has a proper size radiator, regardless of the engine's location. Aston Martin's LMP cars ran into this problem when they rerouted the exhausts to exit out the back side-by-side. It's why half the bodywork aft of the cockpit on an F40 and F50 is holes. It's why the Bugatti Veyron's engine sits out in the open. JGTC cars and ALMS GT cars that have everything ducted to perfection still have ventilation for the engine compartment.


By time the coolant gets to the radiator it's already tons cooler
No, it isn't. Rubber hoses don't dissipate heat very well.


The EJ's are very hard to cool in a wrx when you crank up the power. no one has any idea if this will apply when you move the engine to the back like FFR did with the 818. No way to know until someone actually does it. Everything else is speculation.
Wrong again. There are a number of Porsche 914s running turbo EJ powerplants instead of going the -6 conversion route.

[BipDBo]

I think that the openings on the hood which discharge the radiator air, are too small. They should be larger than the intake. On the 818, it is smaller, which would make for poor flow. Compare the 818 intake vs discharge opening size as compared to this Lotus Evora GX:
108751087610877

[skullandbones]

Regarding the distance the coolant has to travel: one critical factor is the speed it moves from engine to radiator. I had the opposite arrangement, a big block Chevy in front of a low profile roadster and the radiator behind the rear wheels. We had to modify a heavy duty water pump (more than one) to push the water and also push it at the right speed. It's a little tricky. I noticed that FFR is using aluminum tubing whenever possible which will help disapate some heat. I would be surprised if the 818 arrangement works with the stock water pump but I guess we will see. WEK.

[BipDBo]

Regarding the distance the coolant has to travel: one critical factor is the speed it moves from engine to radiator. I had the opposite arrangement, a big block Chevy in front of a low profile roadster and the radiator behind the rear wheels. We had to modify a heavy duty water pump (more than one) to push the water and also push it at the right speed. It's a little tricky. I noticed that FFR is using aluminum tubing whenever possible which will help disapate some heat. I would be surprised if the 818 arrangement works with the stock water pump but I guess we will see. WEK.

The extra head pressure from that pipe all depands on the diameter of that pie. With a constant volume flow rate, inceasing the pipe diameter will lower the fluid velocity and therefore pressure drop due to pipe friction. The head pressure due to friction in a pipe drops off pretty quickly as a function of diameter. The smoothness of the inside of the pipe and the turns of the pipe are also very important factors. Higher head pressure requires more pump power which seeps power from the engine. Also, Greater head pressure can result in lower flow. The pump curve does not keep the flow steady as a function of pressure. Lower flow could result in insufficient cooling. The tradeoff is that a larger diameter pipe, when full of water, weighs more.

In HVAC design, we have a similar problem. When pumping fluid, like chilled water around a large campus, a high head pressure can mean a more electricity use by the pump, but oversized piping is more expensive. We often do an economic analysis to determine the ideal total head pressure and pipe size to find the lowest total cost over a certain period of time. If one knew enough of the varables, it would not be very difficult to do a similar analysis to determine the optimal pipe diameter as it affects the total wheel power to weight ratio of the car. You would then have to confirm that the result allows sufficient flow for cooling.

My hunch is that the piping they currently have is sufficiently sized, if not a tad oversized. It looks like they are using smooth aluminum pipe with long radius turns. The pipe diameter looks fairly large especially when you consider that the pipe wall is thinner than the walls on rubber hose. It looks like they aimed to design the piping so that the 818s long pipe run has the same pressure drop as the short rubber hoses on the WRX. This may not be exactly optimal from a power to weight perspective, but it would assure no problems because it would keep constant, both the water volume flow and the pump power.

[prematureapex]

I agree....how can they sell, even a base kit, that isn't going to be legal at track days?


I'm wondering about the little roll bar "humps" as shown on both renditions (street and "R version") they don't meet any track req. that I know of... I'd like to see the bar higher all the way across, higher than the top of the seats and perhaps a hair lower than the windscreen...

just need to keep plugging away at donor parts... make sure that they are ready to bolt in... powdercoating starts soon... :cool::)

[PhyrraM]

I agree....how can they sell, even a base kit, that isn't going to be legal at track days?

Because the base kit is intended to be a street roadster? The track version has always been portrayed as a different (albeit similar) model.

[07FIREBLADE]

I think what he is getting at is in the rendering of the track car. The "humps" are not legal for track racing. To my understanding the bodies would be different and the chassis were the same. But only time will tell.

[metalmaker12]

The car will have no major problems with cooling the motor, there design will help airflow to the ej by at least 60% as mentioned by Jim. The sti intercooler sprayer is a good option to cool down the induction temps, a sti oil cooler would be another good idea, but only if you really race the hell out of it. Lets get the car built and driving around before we get all worried about minor stuff.

[RM1SepEx]

I agree....how can they sell, even a base kit, that isn't going to be legal at track days?

The go kart has a higher, single hoop... both renderings have the funny bumps in the roll bar in question

[BrandonDrums]

The EJ's are very hard to cool in a wrx when you crank up the power. no one has any idea if this will apply when you move the engine to the back like FFR did with the 818. No way to know until someone actually does it. Everything else is speculation.

Maybe with the stock tune, but in my experience with fully stock cooling everything works great. I have a built ej257 swapped into an 05 wrx with an 18g-xt pushing 20 psi and driven pretty darn hard. It's been a record summer here with quite a few days topping 100 degrees.

Stock, the 16 bit ecu turns fans on at 205 degrees and coming down powers them down at 194 at speed. Slow or stopped, it's 194 to power on coming up. and 188 coming down. I've simply reduced both the at speed and stopped triggers to on at 190 and off at 180.

http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af89/BrandondrumsWRX/StockWRXradiatorfantrigger.png

Now, even driving hard over an extended period of time, I haven't topped 200 degrees in water temp all summer. I've been driving around with my laptop plugged in nearly every day since April when I started tuning and decided I liked having the romraider dashboard up.

From my experience, the stock fan power on temp is just a bit high. At 205 degrees the engine seems to make too much more ADDITIONAL heat for the stock radiator and fans to cool it off, temp holds or climbs until you slow down.

With the fan triggered at a lower temp at speed rolling or standing still, the engine seems to produce less additional heat allowing for the system to cool even under high stress. It might depend on the design of the front end, I bet the triggers weren't changed for the 04-05 model year from 02-04, maybe my year gets less natural airflow or something.

My overall goal it just to keep the engine in the 190s which is also the goal of the stock system from the looks of it overall. I feel temperature swinging by 20 degrees back and fourth is also worse than keeping it a little cooler than factory intent in a high-performance application. Perhaps you can check in with me in 50k miles to see how my rings are holding up though.

Keep in mind, I don't have much evidence to support my claims other than my own observations of the reported water temperatures when driving around using romraider on my own personal car.

That being said, in the 818 even with the extra piping, the reduced weight and more open engine compartment I bet cooling won't be as bad as we think.

[prematureapex]

Because the base kit is intended to be a street roadster? The track version has always been portrayed as a different (albeit similar) model.

Not talking about the track version. Not saying the street car should have a cage in it...

But you can't even do a DE event with the street version...how was that the car they were building?

You take the time to put a bar in it, call it a "giant killer", even go so far as to talk up its track day potential..but don't make it high enough to pass a tech inspection at a DE??? :confused:

Seems really, really silly that I have to buy the "track" version of the to go to a darn DE a few times a year with it.

Given the focus of this car, I'd say this was a silly, silly design choice.

[PhyrraM]

.....Given the focus of this car, I'd say this was a silly, silly design choice.

While I don't disagree with what you said, but it's hardly appropriate to call it silly as we have not seen ANY final versions yet.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge, every convertable/spyder/roadster from any of the OEMs will need to have an aftermarket rollbar installed for the same events?

[Xusia]

What PhyrraM said. They could be just showing off some styling concepts. Even if they did have such a roll bar on the final street version of the 818, I'm SURE they've planned something for the track version that will pass inspection, and I'd bet they would be interchangeable.

[RM1SepEx]

I'm thinking that the higher bar that is on the go kart will just rise up behind the seats. The track and street versions are very similar in most areas and there is zero need to have a different roll bar behind the seats.

I'm just wondering why the weird arrangement shown on both renderings as it is clearly not track legal for any existing organization.

[skullandbones]

I doubt that FFR has even gotten to the production logistics yet, meaning that the final design for the roll bar can wait until the welding jig is designed and built. Unlike the roadster where the roll bars are added after production as bolt ons but similar to the GTM roll cage (part of the chassis), this can be finalized just like a lot of tweeks on other parts of the chassis will be changed as the final computer model emerges. I think the roll bar for the roadster will be the same as the track version but higher than what we have seen so far (just my opinion). As Xusia mentioned, FFR has to make this race legal. It's in the genes. WEK.

[Samiam1017]

I don't think the track version is ment to be a race version. I sure they mean it's a strapped down light weight track day car. It's not factory fives responsibility to make it a class legal racecar that would be the responsibility of the owner. Until enough people had them in a class would a sanctioning body then look into a spec class. So I wouldn't ever expect to see it happen. It's not gonna ever have the following of a cobra.

[metalmaker12]

I thought it might not to, but the amount of people posting 818 info on here is very impressive. It might have the same or more of following as time goes on. The cobra and wrx are loved everywhere people love cars. A car that looks good, and can really move like the wind with that powertrain is going to really pop. I have family in italy that know about the 818 and are thinking of building one, and a friend knows of people in England that have caught interest. It could happen, it is off to a good start.

[Xusia]

Racing is in FFR's DNA (so to speak). As I interpret Dave's comments, the track-focused car IS for racing, not just track days. I'd bet cold, hard cash it comes with a roll bar that will pass the inspection for most racing organizations.

[Silvertop]

Racing is in FFR's DNA (so to speak). As I interpret Dave's comments, the track-focused car IS for racing, not just track days. I'd bet cold, hard cash it comes with a roll bar that will pass the inspection for most racing organizations.

Must agree. I'd also be willing to bet that for those who wish for a track-legal but fully streetable machine, it will be possible to order the track car with a full-height windshield and a street-legal exhaust system. Remember all of Dave's talk about swatch-watch configurations..........

[RM1SepEx]

Or order a street configuration with some track version tidbits like adj Konis, some aero add ons etc...

[Silvertop]

Or order a street configuration with some track version tidbits like adj Konis, some aero add ons etc...

Yes, that too.

[prematureapex]

You're correct. Although that generally opens the door for $400-500 bolt-in units made possible by the unibody construction. Further, those OEMs aren't kit cars marketed toward the trackday crowd, as this one is. The OEMs, while they have hoops, or pop-up protection, do not have bars to start.This car already has a rollbar. So why not just extend it and make it a useful/legal one?

Sure, we don't know what is it going to wind up having... but every recent rendering of the car shows a bar which is clearly not legal. I just don't get putting a bar in it, if it's not a bar that will get you through the front door of a trackday...the very thing this car has been marketed for.




While I don't disagree with what you said, but it's hardly appropriate to call it silly as we have not seen ANY final versions yet.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge, every convertable/spyder/roadster from any of the OEMs will need to have an aftermarket rollbar installed for the same events?

[autostang]

I don't know anything about track requirements, but I am curious why the design shown in the renderings would be less safe then a single roll bar. I could see it being more prone to being crushed if there were no additional supports below the roll bar. But there appear to be diagonal supports below the ends of the two small humps.

[prematureapex]

Racing is in FFR's DNA (so to speak). As I interpret Dave's comments, the track-focused car IS for racing, not just track days. I'd bet cold, hard cash it comes with a roll bar that will pass the inspection for most racing organizations.

Legal for racing means a full-cage, not simply an adequate roll-bar.


It would be downright silly if they made the "track version" a car with a full road-race-legal cage, but didn't offer a trackday legal bar in the street version.

You'd be left with no streetable 818 that could also be driving on the track. (i.e. a caged car is not really streetable)

Assuming the street car will not have a track-day legal bar, I'm betting the track version will have such a suitable bar, but would require the installation of a full cage after the fact for w2w racing.

[prematureapex]

I don't know anything about track requirements, but I am curious why the design shown in the renderings would be less safe then a single roll bar. I could see it being more prone to being crushed if there were no additional supports below the roll bar. But there appear to be diagonal supports below the ends of the two small humps.

The bigger issue is the height. The bar(s) in the renderings is much too short.

[BipDBo]

10921
10922
A lot of people are saying that the track version should have a full cage. I really know nothing about racing rules, so excuse my ignorance. Factory Five's other track car, the '65 Challenge car also does not have a full cage. Both the 818R and the challenge car havce very similar designs with a bar that goes forward and down at an angle from the roll bar where doors would normally be. The only difference that I see between the 818R and the Challenge car is that the Challenge car has a bit more height on the rool bar. Perhaps they are just presenting a lower roll bar on the reveal on the 818R for aesthetics intending to give a higher roll bar in the future? I also notice that many owners add more protective steel in varying ways, sometimes making a full cage. Why should the 818 come with a full cage from the factory when the Challenge car does not?

[prematureapex]

The '65 Challenge car does indeed come with a cage.

***Complete NASA Approved competition roll cage with side impact bars, mounting for intrusion plates, footbox steel tubing protection and cockpit steel surround structure.

It's the same type of cage that you see in other open-top cars. Perhaps you're comparing it to what you see in a tin-top cage?





10921
10922
A lot of people are saying that the track version should have a full cage. I really know nothing about racing rules, so excuse my ignorance. Factory Five's other track car, the '65 Challenge car also does not have a full cage. Both the 818R and the challenge car havce very similar designs with a bar that goes forward and down at an angle from the roll bar where doors would normally be. The only difference that I see between the 818R and the Challenge car is that the Challenge car has a bit more height on the rool bar. Perhaps they are just presenting a lower roll bar on the reveal on the 818R for aesthetics intending to give a higher roll bar in the future? I also notice that many owners add more protective steel in varying ways, sometimes making a full cage. Why should the 818 come with a full cage from the factory when the Challenge car does not?

[BipDBo]

[QUOTE=prematureapex;68009] (i.e. a caged car is not really streetable)
QUOTE]

Why is that neccessarily the case? I've heard the objection that with a cage, you need a helmet so you don't get a head injury when your head hits the cage. Couldn't you build a full cage that is big enough that you could not hit your head on it when buckled in? Wouldn't that be "streetable?" The Venom GT roadster essentially has a full cage. Why couldn't the 818 have something like this?
10923
A Jeep Wrangler also has a full cage with a soft top, right off of the lot. When an OEM car is retrofitted with a cage, steel tubing gets installed inside of the car, making obstructions that make the car not practical for daily driving road use. The 818 is different, because you are starting from scratch, not inhibited by the dimensions of an existing OEM unibody. I don't see why the 818 couldn't have a cage designed to be both safe and egonomic.

[prematureapex]

I think you need to look into what a road racing legal cage means, vs., for example, the bars in a Jeep Wrangler. They aren't even close to be the same thing. The bars in a Jeep aren't even remotely close to making up a racing-legal cage. Nor is there any side-impact protection (i.e. the kind that you have to climb over when getting into a race-legal car. I'm also pretty sure the "rollcage" in the Venom GT wouldn't meet most sanctioning bodies' requirements either.


Honestly, I find your idea of expanding the size of the cage to take away the danger of hitting your head on it in a collision too ummm....odd... to comment on.


[QUOTE=prematureapex;68009] (i.e. a caged car is not really streetable)
QUOTE]

Why is that neccessarily the case? I've heard the objection that with a cage, you need a helmet so you don't get a head injury when your head hits the cage. Couldn't you build a full cage that is big enough that you could not hit your head on it when buckled in? Wouldn't that be "streetable?" The Venom GT roadster essentially has a full cage. Why couldn't the 818 have something like this?
10923
A Jeep Wrangler also has a full cage with a soft top, right off of the lot. When an OEM car is retrofitted with a cage, steel tubing gets installed inside of the car, making obstructions that make the car not practical for daily driving road use. The 818 is different, because you are starting from scratch, not inhibited by the dimensions of an existing OEM unibody. I don't see why the 818 couldn't have a cage designed to be both safe and egonomic.

[BipDBo]

I think you need to look into what a road racing legal cage means, vs., for example, the bars in a Jeep Wrangler. They aren't even close to be the same thing. The bars in a Jeep aren't even remotely close to making up a racing-legal cage. Nor is there any side-impact protection (i.e. the kind that you have to climb over when getting into a race-legal car. I'm also pretty sure the "rollcage" in the Venom GT wouldn't meet most sanctioning bodies' requirements either.


Honestly, I find your idea of expanding the size of the cage to take away the danger of hitting your head on it in a collision too ummm....odd... to comment on.



I definately understand what you mean about side protection. Race legal cars generally don't have functional doors. Could a car with functioning doors be built to have the doors removed and replaced with a bolt-on side cage and non-hinging door for track day? Albeit, even if possible that may not be a very practical idea. I have aligned door hinges before, and wouldn't want to do it very often. The Wrangler cage is effective rollover protection as I'm sure so is the roof structure of the Venom GT. Putting aside the doors, what is the difference between a race legal cage and what is seen here on the Venom GT or even the Wrangler?

I asked the question about expanding it to not be able to hit your head only because I have brought up the desire to have a full cage overhead (but with functioning doors) for the road going version on the forum before. I reference the Venom GT, asking why the 818 couldn't have something similar. The idea was shot down by many claiming that you cannot use a car fitted with a cage as a daily driver because you would need to wear a helmet to protect your head from the cage. I thought this answer was very odd myself.

Like I said, I'm new to all of this and don't really know anything about racing rules, so thank you for humoring my questions.

[JRL]

I definately understand what you mean about side protection. Race legal cars generally don't have functional doors. Could a car with functioning doors be built to have the doors removed and replaced with a bolt-on side cage and non-hinging door for track day? Albeit, even if possible that may not be a very practical idea. I have aligned door hinges before, and wouldn't want to do it very often. The Wrangler cage is effective rollover protection as I'm sure so is the roof structure of the Venom GT. Putting aside the doors, what is the difference between a race legal cage and what is seen here on the Venom GT or even the Wrangler?

I asked the question about expanding it to not be able to hit your head only because I have brought up the desire to have a full cage overhead (but with functioning doors) for the road going version on the forum before. I reference the Venom GT, asking why the 818 couldn't have something similar. The idea was shot down by many claiming that you cannot use a car fitted with a cage as a daily driver because you would need to wear a helmet to protect your head from the cage. I thought this answer was very odd myself.

Like I said, I'm new to all of this and don't really know anything about racing rules, so thank you for humoring my questions.

Really ?

[PhyrraM]

Well, they may have doors that open, but you still may need to be a contortionist to enter and exit.

[BipDBo]

Really ?

Sarcasm noted, but not sure if it means that you agree or disagree.
The challenge car and the 818R rendering also do not have functional doors.
10927
I had in mind that this is more or less typical side impact protection. I've also seen some how-to videos on the FFR forum on retrofitting the 65 coupe with similar steel. Could something like this be built as a bolt-on rather than permanently welded?

[Etos]

818 should not come with a race cage unless it was a special order. Some racing organizations have different rules and regulations for their race car inspections. What one place will want may not be what another will take. So essentially you need to know what the car will be raced in first. As far as regular track days, you don't need a cage.

Having a street car with a real race cage is extremely dangerous. Even for people on the track with full gear on it can be dangerous. It's a double edged sword to say the least. There's no race legal cage that is street legal, none. Venom does not have any kind of race legal cage. I always laugh when I see people with blinged out cars and they have those silly bolt in cages on the street. It's very funny.

[BipDBo]

How about making some more stuff up?



If you have raced with the SCCA and NASA, you'd know that you could never wheel to wheel race with just a roll bar.




Really? Let me know which trackday groups let you run a vert without a rollbar these days. "No rules"?

Did you miss the entire above discussion talking about just those rules?

Settle down ladies. Remember that this forum expects better manners than most. You know much more than I, but perhaps you're jumping to conclusions prematurely.
I think that his first statement was that he would never race a car without a cage when one could be installed.
Maybe his second statement about trackday not having ruels refers to time trial runs rather than any wheel to wheel racing. I thought thateven to get on the track for time trials, you would need at least an adequate rollbar, but perhaps there are some that don't?

[Xusia]

Well, you SAID it for sure! Not sure about the respect part... LOL :)

[Etos]

?

That's the whole point. Even untimed "trackdays" REQUIRE a rollbar in an open-top car. As do time trials.

His statement that "trackdays" don't have rollover rules is 100% wrong. No one thought he was talking about w2w racing, as he made the point of distinguishing between the two throughout his post.

For a person claiming to have "raced" NASA and SCCA, he hasn't the first clue about the most basic rules, at any of the levels, be it untimed "trackdays", or w2w racing. He has never raced with either NASA, or the SCCA, nor does it appear that he's even done a trackday with either of those two groups.

He's clearly full of it And I say that with all due respect. :p

I did a track day in my s2000 no rollbar. Plenty of Miatas without rollbars too. Not everyone does the broomstick rule. This was NASA NE as well. Some do have a broomstick rule but, some don't.

[StatGSR]

^ several organizations will accept the s2k for normal hpdes as the s2000s can support the weight of the car on with windshield frame and does provide fairly good rollover protection as is (more than one would expect at any rate). it would not be recommended though if your helmet breaks the plane between the stock roll bar and the windshield. simply put, there are exceptions to the rule and every track and/or organizer may be different.

[BipDBo]

Wow.

Sorry I started this argument. It's been entertaining, though.

[Martin]

A gentle reminder (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?4262-The-818-Section-and-The-FFR-Community&highlight=community+behaviour)


Martin

[StatGSR]

Like who? Maybe 5-10 years ago.

There are literally hundreds of threads on various forums about guys looking for groups that will let you run sans bar. With the exception of a couple miata clubs across the country, it is damn near impossible to find a group/track that still allows a convertible with no bar.

or like last fall...
http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/890857-track-day-with-stock-s2000-roll-bar/

like i said, this is an exception to the rule and every track and/or organizer may be different.

would you be happier if is said permatureapex is right and roll are always required? I already agree with you that a proper bar is a necessity for HPDEing a convertible and is typically REQUIRED, no need to get all butt hurt because i made one comment that said otherwise.

also from NASAs site....
http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/rollover.html
"NASA’s High Performance Driving Events (HPDE) are a very safe way to learn how to handle your car and drive the line on the race track. These events are not designed to teach you how to race, there are other schools that will teach this. All you need to run a HPDE event is your car (in good condition) and a helmet. In a convertible, you will also need to have a roll bar. This roll bar must be strong enough to withstand the forces of compression involved in supporting the full weight of the car. A factory roll bar such as those found on a Honda S2000 may fulfill this requirement, but “style bars” or “show bars” found on some other cars would not work. (If you have a question about your car, call the NASA office.) Road racing with NASA requires a full cage (defined as 6 or more mounting points)"

[BipDBo]

Questions from a newb:
I'm interseted in the 818 for daily driving, but would like to be able to take it to the track and do so with as much protection as possible regardless of requirements.
Are cages typically welded or bolted in?
Would it be at all practical to build an 818 roadster for daily driver use that could accept a cage that could be bolted in for track days?
Could the coupe version be built with the overhead portions of the cage integral to it and have built in side components bolted in for track days? (on the insides of the doors if you have no roll down windows or even replacing the hinged doors with non-hinged "track day" doors)

[StatGSR]

Slow down Bip

a Cage typically welded in, a Roll Bar is either welded or bolted in. (only an appropriate roll bar is required for track days /HPDEs, Cages are required for wheel to wheel competitive racing) also only convertibles "need" a roll bar for HPDEs, but then again most other coupes have a structural roof, if the roof of the car was nothing buy glass and fiberglass i suspect the track or organizer would require a proper roll bar to be in that as well.

It would not be practical to make a bolt in cage, an appropriate roll bar yes.

A coupe version "should" have the roll protection integrated into the chassis. door structures would not be required for track days/HPDEs. would be for wheel to wheel, but there would be now rule legal way to "bolt them in" just for the race.

[bobzdar]

Most 'convertibles' made since 2000 have roll bars built in, like the s2000 etc. so would be fine for HPDE or open track days. Time Trials generally follow HPDE rules though some require the addition of HANS devices, so no cage needed for any car in HPDE or Time Trials and if the car was made after 2000 it may be fine, convertible or otherwise. All wheel to wheel that I've looked at (rightfully) require a full cage. Some allow bolt in door bars so could be made to work on the street. You would almost never be competitive in a wheel to wheel class in a street car, though, as it'd be too heavy. If you properly pad the rollbar and install it tight to the body lines of the car, it should not be a head injury hazard, at least no more so than an older car that doesn't have massive padding like newer cars.

There are most definitely bolt in full cages that are sanctioned for racing in certain groups, but 'bolt-in' doesn't mean you can easily take it in and out. It usually requires partial, if not full, dis-assembly of the interior to install or remove. Here is one for my car, with removable door bars and all, that was used in the challenge racing series. Not cheap. Weld in is usually cheaper and strengthens the car while also providing as much, if not more, accident protection.

http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_catalogs.php?M=FE&P=&V=diag&I=3174

[RM1SepEx]

none of the current convertibles, even the hard tops, are allowed at the Porsche, COM or BMW, etc HPDE events locally at NHIS.

Until one meets the government roof crush standards required of a "stock" sedan it won't happen. This is 100% driven by insurance requirements.
to participate they need to have a bar that meets regularly recognized standards for a bar like SCCA or NASA has published

I attended the BMW annual Congress, as usual this is a big issue as the convertible drivers are not allowed to play at any event beyond an autocross under their insurance coverage.

[BipDBo]

From the looks of the rendeing, I don't think the rollbars will do very much good as they are currently designed. It doesn't look like they will pass the broomstick test, not at least for me (6'-1") with a helmet on. Also, since Dave said that the windshield will be removable (which I think is pretty cool) I doubt that we could count on that to not crush under the weight of the car. I sure hope that they build the stock rollbar high enough to pass the broom stick test.

I'll be waiting for the coupe version. I think it would be cool to have all of the steel roof structure of the coupe, but be able to remove the skin of the roof like the Venom GT Spyder.
10946 10947
Protection of a coupe with the joy of a roadster

[Xusia]

OK. WTH is a "broomstick" test?

[305mouse]

You put a broomstick on the top of the windshield and rest it on the rollbar behind your head. If your helmet makes contact with the broomstick handle, you fail cause your head would get crushed in a worst case event.

[jimgood]

Just add to the broomstick test, I think in a car with no windshield the line (broomstick) is measured from the top of the roll bar to the front of the hood.

[Mechie3]

That's typically the case. The intent is to make sure in the event of a turnover that when the supporting points of the car are touching pavement there is still room to fit a head in there. In the case of a windshield, the windshield and roll bar support the car. No windshield (formula car, etc) the nose and the roll bar would support the car.

[0100]

Front nose like the ginetta would be cool.

http://www.donington-park.co.uk/clientfiles/images/news/ginetta-new.jpg

[scatsob]

+1 to the above. I love hood louvers.

[Etos]

That car is pretty sweet. It's obviously a track only car. I wonder why they even bothered with the headlights :confused:

[Rockraven]

That car is pretty sweet. It's obviously a track only car. I wonder why they even bothered with the headlights :confused:

Night racing. It looks like an enduro car, so it would need lights.

[scatsob]

Dang, Ginetta makes some nice looking cars. How about the G60. Simple and clean.

[305mouse]

I see Rodney's revised drawing all over that G60.

[Twinspool]

Dive planes and splitters make up for a whole lot of ugly.

[metalmaker12]

I like Xabiers the most, but FFR second, the rest are ok

[Hankl]

Warning to ALL!

Both Samian1017 & Prematureapex have been given Infractions for name calling/ Disrespect of fellow forum members. The Mods will not tolerate this type of childish
behavior. Both of their comments on this thread have been removed. The infraction will last for 10 days. Any further like behavior will be dealt with.

Hank

[Zodiac]

hmmm I wonder if we will have enough room to do something like this? Shorter length plus the intake will be a very short run from the side vent of the car so you can easily direct air into it which should also be cool and plentiful.

11298

http://www.tuspeed.com/tuspeed-low-mount-subaru-turbo-kit-p-1951.html

[skullandbones]

hmmm I wonder if we will have enough room to do something like this? Shorter length plus the intake will be a very short run from the side vent of the car so you can easily direct air into it which should also be cool and plentiful.

11298

http://www.tuspeed.com/tuspeed-low-mount-subaru-turbo-kit-p-1951.html

So do you just happen to know the cost of the manifold and required intercooler, ball park? The principle sounds convincing. If it really significantly reduces lag that's hard to put a number on but you know you want it. Thanks, WEK.

[PhyrraM]

The problem with that setup would be that pointed "forward" you will run into all the same engine length issues covered in the "H6 possiblity" threads. If pointed backwards, the transmission would be in the way.

A variation could likely work if your planning all custom work.

Also keep in mind that the shorter the exhaust side, the longer the intake side will be. The intake side of the donor WRX is currently VERY short compared to other turbo cars. I have no idea where you would see the greater advantage.

[Zodiac]

yea not sure the cost of all this. and probably won't really be needed except for those really needing/wanting it. and yea as for if it will fit or not is a nothing thing all together.

[Mechie3]

The 2010 legacy GT manifold is like that. Don't forget you need to ad a sump for the oil return. I would believe shorter exhaust is better than shorter intake. Once the turbo is spooled it doesn't take as much to pump it through.

Stock 2010 LGT manifold:

http://car.watch.impress.co.jp/img/car/docs/169/682/lgc95.jpg

[Zodiac]

Yea I read something about that with the manifold shorter is better than shorter intercooler piping for faster spool and quicker response but I'm not sure. I looked at other pics of it with the engine and it doesn't seem to go to the front that much (from what I could see) so maybe it will fit. And yea would definitely need a dry sump oil. although I wonder then where the legacy gt oil pan is at cause its not gonna be dry sump stock.

also I would assume this is another item that will fit any ej25 engine? if that's the case and if it's just the oil pan is a different shape would that also mean we could just swap that instead of buying a dry sump system?

also i noticed on the page with all the pics (http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112786) and I am pretty sure I am missing something or looking at it wrong but it looks like the turbo is connected to a motor mount?

[Mechie3]

I don't think the motor itself is dry sump, just that there is some sort of sump to pump oil from the turbo back to the pan. It might be routed directly to the pan depending on height. I know most aftermarket low mount setups drain the oil to a small chamber that is then pumped back to the main pan with a small secondary pump.

[jimgood]

10921
10922
A lot of people are saying that the track version should have a full cage. I really know nothing about racing rules, so excuse my ignorance. Factory Five's other track car, the '65 Challenge car also does not have a full cage. Both the 818R and the challenge car havce very similar designs with a bar that goes forward and down at an angle from the roll bar where doors would normally be. The only difference that I see between the 818R and the Challenge car is that the Challenge car has a bit more height on the rool bar. Perhaps they are just presenting a lower roll bar on the reveal on the 818R for aesthetics intending to give a higher roll bar in the future? I also notice that many owners add more protective steel in varying ways, sometimes making a full cage. Why should the 818 come with a full cage from the factory when the Challenge car does not?
The Challenge car is not required to have the front hoop because it doesn't have a windshield. Windshield frames cannot support the weight of the car and would fold in toward the driver during a rollover. There are race classes where you'll see Miatas and Other open top cars with the windshields removed and cages similar to the Challenge car.



818 should not come with a race cage unless it was a special order. Some racing organizations have different rules and regulations for their race car inspections. What one place will want may not be what another will take. So essentially you need to know what the car will be raced in first. As far as regular track days, you don't need a cage.

Having a street car with a real race cage is extremely dangerous. Even for people on the track with full gear on it can be dangerous. It's a double edged sword to say the least. There's no race legal cage that is street legal, none. Venom does not have any kind of race legal cage. I always laugh when I see people with blinged out cars and they have those silly bolt in cages on the street. It's very funny.
First, most club racing organizations in which a car like the 818 would race all have similar, if not the same, cage requirements. You have to go off into left field, like pro-rally or NASCAR or Vintage to see cage designs that differ drastically from those in club racing. It's really rare that a cage approved in SCCA is not approved in NASA. Second, I see race cars with state inspection stickers driven on the road here in Virginia (however stupid that may be), so your statement about "street legal" is misguided, if not false.

[coolbluelb]

The 2010 legacy GT manifold is like that. Don't forget you need to ad a sump for the oil return. I would believe shorter exhaust is better than shorter intake. Once the turbo is spooled it doesn't take as much to pump it through.

Stock 2010 LGT manifold:



As an owner of an 05 LGT, I knew Suby went with the low/front turbo setup on the '10, but I didn't realize they went heat shield-free on the header. That seems odd. Also a general question, does the '10 LGT turbo placement mean there is effectively no stock downpipe to the exhaust. Seems running it back over the engine to the 'old' stock location would have been silly.

[Mechie3]

As an owner of an 05 LGT, I knew Suby went with the low/front turbo setup on the '10, but I didn't realize they went heat shield-free on the header. That seems odd. Also a general question, does the '10 LGT turbo placement mean there is effectively no stock downpipe to the exhaust. Seems running it back over the engine to the 'old' stock location would have been silly.

I think it is heat sheilded, just not shown in those pics. The "downpipe" is that massive cat you see coming off the turbo.

[BrandonDrums]

Yea I read something about that with the manifold shorter is better than shorter intercooler piping for faster spool and quicker response but I'm not sure. I looked at other pics of it with the engine and it doesn't seem to go to the front that much (from what I could see) so maybe it will fit. And yea would definitely need a dry sump oil. although I wonder then where the legacy gt oil pan is at cause its not gonna be dry sump stock.

also I would assume this is another item that will fit any ej25 engine? if that's the case and if it's just the oil pan is a different shape would that also mean we could just swap that instead of buying a dry sump system?

also i noticed on the page with all the pics (http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112786) and I am pretty sure I am missing something or looking at it wrong but it looks like the turbo is connected to a motor mount?

Makes sense I guess, I still wish Subaru had reversed the intake manifold so the throttle body was facing forward through. That would have been ideal and frankly, would be perfect for the BRZ.

[rjh2pd]

Makes sense I guess, I still wish Subaru had reversed the intake manifold so the throttle body was facing forward through. That would have been ideal and frankly, would be perfect for the BRZ.

The BRZ intake manifold is reversed (intake in the front). Are the intake manifolds not reversible? I know I've seen some with the intake on the front, but they might have been aftermarket.

[PhyrraM]

Stripped of fuel rails and wiring the manifold will bolt on backwards.

Custom fuel rails, harness mods, and engine bay fitment are the issues.

[Slatt]

hmmm I wonder if we will have enough room to do something like this? Shorter length plus the intake will be a very short run from the side vent of the car so you can easily direct air into it which should also be cool and plentiful.

11298

http://www.tuspeed.com/tuspeed-low-mount-subaru-turbo-kit-p-1951.html

Considering there`s no rear firewall back there, or steering column or brake booster to the left, it seems to me the best place for a turbo on an 818 will be between the tranny and the I/C. Route the exhaust back and up from each side instead of around the front, steady things with a bracket from the unused bobble mount, and a few more fittings gets you to the I/C. By rotating things a bit it might be easy to connect the exhaust outlet to FFR`s muffler. It looks like tuspeed could do the exhaust and turbo with the fittings they already have.

Then a duct with a fan to keep the I/C cool. That just leaves the intake piping to be decided on. There`s also the question of how much room FFR will leave us between the trunk and the I/C. I expect to go this route, but it`s pointless to design anything till after SEMA.

[coolbluelb]

I think it is heat sheilded, just not shown in those pics. The "downpipe" is that massive cat you see coming off the turbo.

Just sayin', there is no "down pipe" in the 2010 LGT, just as there is no "up pipe". The whole system exists below the engine, no up and over as in previous years (and in the WRX) means the stock exhaust configuration for the 818 would not fit.