Aerodynamic properties

[Flashburn]

It would be really cool if the final design could take this seriously and do a good job of generating lots of downforce with the minimum possible increase in drag.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downforce

Formula 1 cars are great examples of this, they can corner with forces in excess of 5g because the cars are designed to generate 3-4 times their weight in downforce.

http://www.bmwblog.com/2008/11/13/formula-1-bmw-sauber-f108-over-the-course-of-last-season/

Great increases in handling ability and stability can be had for the price of a little drag here with thoughtful design. And functional design is beautiful design.

There are so many options: Inverted wings, split wings, double diffusers, multi-spoilers, canards, side skirts, side ducts, air dams, splitters....


So if you're among those starting to think about entering the body contest, please take some time to incorporate it in your work!

[Kasmodean]

Downforce is great, but you have to be careful when you mention F1 type downforce. They generate 3-4x their weight in downforce, but they also make 2-5x the aerodynamic drag of a normal street car. This extra drag is overcome by the fact they make such high power.

Just like most engineered systems there is to free lunch. More downforce means more drag. It is up to the FFR to optimize each, but almost all street cars keep their CD low, otherwise their fuel mileage goes out the window, and this will limit the amount of downforce FFR can shoot for.

Edit: I just wanted to add, that you can still get F1 type looking splitter and wings without designing them for the full aerodynamic effect of a F1 wing if you like the design. The V8 Ariel Atom looks awesome with the carbon fiber front and rear spoilers, but I doubt they are creating F1 type downforce.

[Flashburn]

http://www.f1technical.net/articles/10

http://image.hondatuningmagazine.com/f/9051924/htup_0803_17_z+hasport_1995_acura_integra_race_car +17_by_9_5zigen_wheels_toyo_ra1_r_copound_tires+si de_view.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i62/npalaciom3/ferrarienzoyn4.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bjgm_SI9X5E/TRzmtfv3XlI/AAAAAAAAAIU/fAzQ6fAscxk/s1600/Image_6861.jpg

[Seagondollar]

Might I suggest that drag (or lack thereof) is more important in day to day driving than downforce? If you want to add wings that look like they came from Richtofen's DR1, feel free to do so. (ask the designers to include appropriate hardpoints)

I suspect the designers proposed this engine for reduced fuel consumption with the 4 banger. That's why I'm interested in the car.

[Flashburn]

I thought this was Factory Five Racing, home of the 7L engine monsters, you know as in cars that drive fast and corner fast. Hey it's great to reduce drag on a race car as well, it's just balanced with the need for downforce.


And they make high performance oriented cars like:

http://www.factoryfive.com/gtm/gallery/gen2/images/IMG_0217.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/gtm/gallery/gen2/images/IMG_0056.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/gtm/gallery/gen2/images/IMG_0055.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/gtm/gallery/gen2/images/IMG_0033.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/gtm/gallery/gen2/images/IMG_0132.jpg

Seems like a striking resemblance to features I was suggesting. Large wing, low hood, large diffuser, canard mounting, large splitter, air tunnel, low body with underpanels and venturi effect...

If you are anywhere serious about fuel economy your design should look like this:

http://ecomodder.com/blog/2008/02/07/crazy-ecomodder-gets-95-mpg-in-a-1992-civic/More%20about%20Basjoos%92%2095%20MPG%20Aerocivic%2 0_%20Ecomodder.com%20Fuel%20Economy%20Blog_files/BoatRebuild15.jpg

Or possibly like this:

http://www.onepennysheet.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/slide_9112_120914_large.jpg

Don't forget to put dimples on all the surfaces where pressure drag is larger than skin drag. Ya know, like a golf ball. That should be built in to the manufacturing or how the hell you going to do it later?
And for certain you shouldn't be looking at 2.5L WRX turbo engines without direct injection. You should be looking at ~1L or possibly a fiat twin air type, with direct injection and tuned for efficiency. Hey maybe even an electric drivetrain; you put a body like that on an 1800lb car and a small motor and battery pack can be used.

I came to FF Racing interested in a racecar... Call me crazy

[Oppenheimer]

I thought this was Factory Five Racing, home of the 7L engine monsters, you know as in cars that drive fast and corner fast. Hey it's great to reduce drag on a race car as well, it's just balanced with the need for downforce.


And they make high performance oriented cars like:

http://www.factoryfive.com/gtm/gallery/gen2/images/IMG_0217.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/gtm/gallery/gen2/images/IMG_0056.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/gtm/gallery/gen2/images/IMG_0055.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/gtm/gallery/gen2/images/IMG_0033.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/gtm/gallery/gen2/images/IMG_0132.jpg

If you are anywhere serious about fuel economy your design should look like this:

http://ecomodder.com/blog/2008/02/07/crazy-ecomodder-gets-95-mpg-in-a-1992-civic/More%20about%20Basjoos%92%2095%20MPG%20Aerocivic%2 0_%20Ecomodder.com%20Fuel%20Economy%20Blog_files/BoatRebuild15.jpg

Or possibly like this:

http://www.onepennysheet.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/slide_9112_120914_large.jpg


Call me crazy

You are indeed crazy. FFR, despite the name, does not produce race only vehicles where performance trumps all else. Their most popular product is a reproduction of a 40+ year car that is driven primarily on the street. Their most high performance product, the GTM, is also a street oriented vehicle. Sure, people track them, but generally not for racing.

That big wing on the back of the GTM, that is an option. Not everyone uses it. I plan to build mine to drive to work as much as I can. While I highly value performance, I also don't want to sacrifice fuel economy (drag) so that I can have some extra downforce that I will rarely ever take advantage of.

But I don't want to preclude you from building yours that way. So just ask for mounting options for a giant wing on the front and back so you can include those on your build? Then we can both get what we want.

[Flashburn]

It's not like I asked for formula one magnitude downforces (which btw occur at speeds of up to 230mph, lets be clear)
I just think it would be good to have a balanced design that includes the option of plenty of downforce for the corners and minimized drag.

Hey I'm not asking for this:
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/3/100/2861/25248930001_large.jpg

[Flashburn]

So just ask for mounting options for a giant wing on the front and back so you can include those on your build? Then we can both get what we want.

Clearly, you have nothing to add to this discussion.

[Kc_Shane]

I am going to think that just like the GTM. That these will be OPTIONS. Some people here won't want the extra wings and splitters.

Just my 2 cents.

KC

[Oppenheimer]

Clearly, you have nothing to add to this discussion.

Huh? I guess I misunderstood what you were asking for. I thought you wanted the design to include very large, F1 type downforce, the type that results in large aero drag, and that operates most effectively at high speed. These usually involve large wings, do they not? Your pics of the GTM were the versions with such wings. This is or is not what you want in the new design?

If it is, then I don't see what is wrong with a design that lets us both get what we want, the wings are just optional. If I don't want them, why force me to have them? If I don't want them, why disallow you to have them? If they are optional, we can both get what we want.

How is this not helpful?

PS - Sorry about the 'you are indeed crazy' remark, I should have put a smiley on that, I was just refering to your 'call me crazy' statement and trying to be funny.

[Flashburn]

Where possible to implement elegant optional addons, they are welcomed. It's just nice to have desingers thinking of aero as they design their shapes, options in mind.

[Kasmodean]

I agree with you that FFR does make car geared towards performance, but that is all relative compared to actual race cars.

The pictures of the GTM and the eco cars are misleading because the GTM in actually more simular to the eco cars in terms of CD and DF then it is to race cars. A CD in the realm of over 1 is normal in the racing world while a CD of over 1 would never make it onto a street car.

This is not saying DF adding elements can't be added to the design, just that these elements have to be optimized to add DF without overly adding CD, with the priority on CD because these are afterall street cars. Attachable/removable aero elements would be great for those that plan to do some racing, but as with the GTM, they will probably be optional items considering the $9900 price goal.

I, for one, would probably be the one to buy such options.

[Kc_Shane]

I agree with you that FFR does make car geared towards performance, but that is all relative compared to actual race cars.

The pictures of the GTM and the eco cars are misleading because the GTM in actually more simular to the eco cars in terms of CD and DF then it is to race cars. A CD in the realm of over 1 is normal in the racing world while a CD of over 1 would never make it onto a street car.

This is not saying DF adding elements can't be added to the design, just that these elements have to be optimized to add DF without overly adding CD, with the priority on CD because these are afterall street cars. Attachable/removable aero elements would be great for those that plan to do some racing, but as with the GTM, they will probably be optional items considering the $9900 price goal.

well said..

[Flashburn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAJyHLll9sw