Odd Problem - Getting Water Pump Bolts that Fit

[SCFFR]

Having a strangely difficult time finding the correct bolts to attach my Ford (CW) water pump the the aluminum timing cover on my 408 engine. The shop that put the engine together gave me a bag of the ARP fasteners that were left over from the engine build but several were missing and the lengths were wrong so I just got a new set of ARP fasteners for the SBF with alum cover and water pump. Well, out of the pack of 15 different length bolts, only about 3 could be used. Again, they are all just too short.

There's nothing strange or out of the ordinary going on here.................standard OEM parts that has me puzzled. I bought a lenght of 5/16" threaded rod and screwed it into each mounting home and then marked the length to get an exact measurement for each bolt. I guess I will have to search the bolt bins at the local hardware store to find what I want but you would think a "kit" would be easy to find.

Also bought a steel alt bracket kit from one of the Mustang repo companies for a 351W engine for mounting my alternator. It didn't fit either..............the two holes one the one end didn't line up with any two holes on the water pump and the hole for the alt bolt was not line up properly.

I know that there are several nice billet mount kits available but was tying to keep the engine looking more period correct. Anyone have any recommendations or suggestion?

Many thanks,

Ron

[CraigS]

I have read several posts over the years about water pump bolts w/ situations like yours. i think you have the right idea w/ the threaded rod as a measuring tool. Once you know what you need it might be good to go to McMaster Carr to order. that way you can get good grade 5 bolts as apposed to the crap Lowes sells.

[SCFFR]

Thanks Craig,

Just finished measuring each bolt hole with the threaded rod and got all of the lengths I needed and none were "odd".
I need 2 - 2", 1 - 3", 3 - 4" and 1 - 5" - nothing strange at all so surprised that the ARP kit didn't have the right ones. Will return the ARP bolts and try to get most of my money back. Since I live in an agricultural area, the local ACE hardware has a HUGE seletion of Grade 8 bolt that all of the farmers use. Will just get what I need there.

[AJ Roadster NJ]

Here is a picture of the 351W I built a couple years ago for my Roadster.

The front dress was, frankly, a nightmare. I bought a selection of cheap bolts and capscrews from Lowe's just to see what would fit, and then ordered those sizes from ARP. The rest of my motor was ARP stainless and I didn't want to mess up that look.

The March pulley bracket required a good bit of fabrication to make spacers that fit, and to achieve perfect alignment with the pulley. I spent a lot of time on this, but was happy with the results.

Next time I will not buy the "complete engine kit" from ARP because there are too many bolts that don't fit. For example, the valve cover bolts are sized to fit standard stamped steel covers, and don't have enough length to accommodate aluminum covers.

AJ

Editing to add that with the March bracket, you can't use ARP because only a cap screw (allen head) will fit -- there's no room to get a socket on the head of a hex bolt. For the long alternator bolt, I had to buy a box of 6.25" cap screws from McMaster Carr because my local nut and bolt supplier didn't carry that length. 6" was too short, 6.5" was too long.

[efnfast]

Here is a picture of the 351W I built a couple years ago for my Roadster.

The front dress was, frankly, a nightmare. I bought a selection of cheap bolts and capscrews from Lowe's just to see what would fit, and then ordered those sizes from ARP. The rest of my motor was ARP stainless and I didn't want to mess up that look.

The March pulley bracket required a good bit of fabrication to make spacers that fit, and to achieve perfect alignment with the pulley. I spent a lot of time on this, but was happy with the results.

Next time I will not buy the "complete engine kit" from ARP because there are too many bolts that don't fit. For example, the valve cover bolts are sized to fit standard stamped steel covers, and don't have enough length to accommodate aluminum covers.

AJ

Editing to add that with the March bracket, you can't use ARP because only a cap screw (allen head) will fit -- there's no room to get a socket on the head of a hex bolt. For the long alternator bolt, I had to buy a box of 6.25" cap screws from McMaster Carr because my local nut and bolt supplier didn't carry that length. 6" was too short, 6.5" was too long.

Why not just cut the 6.5'' down to 6.25''?

[AJ Roadster NJ]

Why not just cut the 6.5'' down to 6.25''?

Because I wanted a clean, factory finish on the end of the bolt going into a $$$$ Dart Pro1 aluminum head.:cool:

[SCFFR]

Thanks again for the info.
Like you AJ, I had ordered the ARP timing cover/pump kit becasue I wanted the bolts to match the ones that had been used on the engine. Unfortunately, that didn't work so had to go with Plan B!
If I can't find the plain steel bracket I want, will consider making it out of some steel plate. I see that Mark at Breeze has a driver's side kit that I will look at in more detail.

Ron

[Gumball]

Not sure if your challenge has the same cause as mine, but I switched a '94 302 block over to a pre-'73 front cover, but with a newer style waterpump and custom alternator brackets. Breeze provided some water pump bolts that fit, but I had to source a few on my own and even had to cut one down and add some additional threads to another. No problem to do at home with a saw, grinding wheel, die set, and a vise.

[skullandbones]

Ron,

I don't think yours is an odd problem at all. I and probably almost everybody who has worked on the front of the Ford engine have experienced the same issues. I have a bin full of "just a little short" or "a little to long" bolts. I went to the allen head black bolts for standarization. But the good thing is that now I almost always have the right bolt for some mod that I am doing. Don't even add up the prices for all the extra bolts and other fasteners you have bought for the build. For me it could be $1000 or more. That's why I am on a first name basis with all the reps at the two hardware stores near my house. Good luck, WEK.

[AJ Roadster NJ]

Ron, here's another thing to make you crazy. Look back at my photo again in my post above. All the unused holes have stainless ARP bolts in them as 'plugs' just to avoid empty threaded holes. If I remember correctly, some were 3/8" and some were 5/16". To get them to fit, I had to cut them to length, then I had to file down the shoulders on the bolts!! Talk about a time consuming process. But hey -- look at the front of the motor. There are no unfilled holes.

[SCFFR]

Thanks again for everyone's input. Yep, these bolts are a real headache but will get through it. After I used the threaded rod to get all of the bolt lengths, I realized that I need to get the alt bracket in place since the one I got from CJ Pony Parts for a 70-73 Mustang will need spacers between it and the pump. I like the look of the plain steel bracket and J arm so will try to get them to work but discovered that Ford used another bracket bolted on the head to make up the difference between the width of the 351 and 302 since Ford used the same accessories on the 351.

Now waiting on the water pump and crank pulley from CVF Racing so I can get them installed and then make sure the alternator is positioned correctly so all of the pulley are in alignment. Maybe one diay I will actually get the engine installed!!

Ron

[SCFFR]

Finally got the water pump bolt issue resolved for now. For anyone using an aluminum timing cover and a standard rotation aluminum water pump you will need the following bolts:
2 - 2"
1 - 3"
3 - 4"
1 - 5"
Note that there a two short bolts that are used to attach the plate to the pump at the bottom of the pump and are installed from the backside of the plate. These should be included with the pump.

Now as soon as I figure out how to get the stock steel bracket and J-arm to fit, will have to add some spacers and longer bolts.

Thanks again for all your help.

Ron

[tjmotter]

Probably too late now but the instructions with my ARP bolt kit (complete engine kit) specifically called out that there are many different options for Ford 302 timing cover/water pump bolts and that if you have the wrong ones, simply contact them and they will send the correct ones out to you.

HTH
Todd

[Gumball]

Finally got the water pump bolt issue resolved for now. For anyone using an aluminum timing cover and a standard rotation aluminum water pump you will need the following bolts:
2 - 2"
1 - 3"
3 - 4"
1 - 5"
Note that there a two short bolts that are used to attach the plate to the pump at the bottom of the pump and are installed from the backside of the plate. These should be included with the pump.

Now as soon as I figure out how to get the stock steel bracket and J-arm to fit, will have to add some spacers and longer bolts.

Thanks again for all your help.

Ron



Ron, I used a 351 Cleveland "J" bracket for my lower alternator mount, but I had to shorten the engine end and re-drill the mounting hole, then use a press to reverse the bend. I made a template out of heavy cardboard first, then modified the OEM bracket - the end result looks pretty much like a stock Ford application. I made the upper mount out of some scrap 3/16" aluminum plate and then sprayed it with Eastwood cast-iron paint to match the lower bracket.

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/CCRsAC/img_4363.jpg

[SCFFR]

Chris,

I was looking at the J-arm that came with the bracket set yesterday and looks like I will have to do exactly the same as you did.............cut the arm to a shorter length and straighten out the bends in the arm. I think once I do that, it should work fine.
Found an original Ford head mount/adapter on ebay for $20 and bought it yesterday so hopefully that will take care of the long alternator bolt. Finally got the triangle shaped bracket positioned in the right place yesterday and was able to get an exact measurement for the spacers I will need.
As soon as I get everything put together, will post a pic.

Again, thanks to everyone for their help.

Todd - I had checked the ARP website and was pretty sure I had ordered the right timing cover/water pump kit. The kit was $25 which I will get back from Summit. Was able to get all of the Grade 8 bolts I needed for around $5 so that worked out okay.

Ron

[Tommy Boy]

Hi all, new here . . .

This thread has be a very great help with my own engine problem and I just joined a moment ago. GREAT FORUM !

I have a somewhat related problem in that I want to run a nice clean V-belt set-up along the lines of what Chris has, but I'm beginning with an '89 5.0 with a reverse rotation serpentine belt set-up. I was wondering if a regular CW rotation water pump could be bolted directly in place of the reverse rotation water pump using the stock '89 timing cover?

Any help at all would be HUGE, I'm completely lost over such a small detail ! !

Thank you ! !

[tjmotter]

The bad news is that the reverse rotation and regular rotation water pumps have a different orientation of the inlet/outlet ports so it isn't a direct bolt on. The good news is that the solution is simply to change out the timing cover housing. Attached is a pic that shows the difference.

10752