New 818 rear photo in the wild.

[shinn497]

Since any kind of info is scarce, I thought I'd share a photo of Jim and Jesper on the 818R frame.

This is from the FFR facebook group.

10519

Does anyone notice anything new? Discuss please.

[NicksPapaw]

Well, the rollbar is definitely different from the pic on the website.

[Etos]

Nothing different.

[skullandbones]

Speaking of the roll bar: it is just begging for someone to add another halo above to match the roadster windscreen. Then it would be a simple thing to wrap it in a Targa cover. I can see that being a very simple molding. It seems to me that would be a lot easier than fabricating a soft top from scratch. The Targa soft top panels would be a "piece of cake" compared to a complete convertable top. I hope someone in house sees the utility of the idea. It would do a lot to exceed expectations. Plus there wouldn't be any rework in the process to make it happen. IMO, WEK.

[riptide motorsport]

Looks NASTY!!

[shinn497]

I like this pic because you can see the size comparison with an actual human being. This car is going to be LOW and WIDE

[Xusia]

I also think the size reference is important. The "long" (as people are saying) hood isn't really so long when you consider the perspective of scale.

[StatGSR]

well last picture i saw didn't have a muffler, if they plan on leaving it there, the back of the car just got longer, but it will make it so people have a good and easy place for a muffler.

[Mechie3]

Dave had mentioned that the "fart can" was put there just so they could meet sound regulations at the autocross they did some test runs at.

[07FIREBLADE]

Im hoping for a dual exhaust system just to make things symetrical but we will all have to wait until the release at SEMA...

[Dave Smith]

The can is just for sound testing and not production. I think the rear exit is split and mid-mounted but it'll be resolved soon enough.

[milkman dan]

Looks sweet!

In the end, will the 818 retain the "boxer rumble"? I sure hope so.

Looking forward to this project so much!

Thanks!

[B33fy]

Looks sweet!

In the end, will the 818 retain the "boxer rumble"? I sure hope so.

Looking forward to this project so much!

Thanks!

The boxer rumble is created because of the unequal length headers, so as long as they remain that way you should be able to keep the burble. I've a twin exit system on my current project, though neat, it is fitted above the gearbox, so it is quite high and may not fit the planned body shape.

10541

The factory five guys are dong a great job, surprised at the level of flak thrown in their direction, maybe its an american thing, loving the look of the car, keep it up guys.

[shinn497]

If you use equal length headers, don't you get a power increase? hmm decisions decisions.

[apexanimal]

^ yes, and i will be going that route... i guess i understand the appeal of the "rumble," but it seems like a scooby version of ricer-ish to go with something just for sound knowing that gains will be minimal...

i would be burned on nasioc by some for saying that i'm sure...

i've got my set of elh's picked out... and i'm drooling over them in the meantime...

[Horhay]

My experience with EL headers was a drop in low end torque and a bump in top end HP. That was on a stock EJ257 with TD-06 20G turbo and supporting mods. I ended up going back to the UEL setup for better low end.

Also, the sound was a lot nicer with the UEL instead of the EL.

[SkiRideDrive]

I will definitely stick with the unequal rumble. Also I've heard that the stock manifolds are much more substantial pieces than most aftermarket manifolds which can help with turbo efficiency.

[tirod]

The reality is that any assumed gain or loss in power from a header design will be entirely theoretical unless backed up with some actual dyno testing. Otherwise, we all just try to make some best case decisions and hope the results meet expectations.

For example - from what little I've read out of books like "Design to Win," the roll bar braces terminating about a foot from the join on the radius. In theory, it could be stronger when attached at the weld for the cross bracing. In reality, some expensive engineers running mulitple analysis on a high end program choose otherwise.

The wonderful thing about the internet is that just anybody can express their opinion. I've learned to stand back and give it some thought before launching a comment across someone's bow. There's lots of reasons to do something a certain way.

Here's another example - running 180 degree headers with undercar exhaust on the Daytona Coupe.. Sure, you have to cross under the engine to get the sequencing, and the transmission cross member needs to be completely moved out of the way - but it's doable. Why, just for the sound, or lack of it? Or, rather, would it be for the increased torque and potentially better flow compared to the historic and aged tri y quad exhaust?

It's arguable, but until it's hooked up and measured, what we think, and what really is happening, can be two very diverse things. Give it some thought, and when it's all laid out, some aspects finally come down to accepting the least of two evils - not the best of all optimum possibilities.

[Mechie3]

In reality, some expensive engineers running mulitple analysis on a high end program choose otherwise.


Don't also forget that in reality, an engineer is balancing desired function with manufacturing costs, ease of assembly, ease of manufacture, space constraints, aesthetics, etc. Everything is a tradeoff. Sometimes something is good enough that it doesn't need the extra 2% of gain it would get from a different design.

[Etos]

The most gains will be from the downpipe. It looks like you'll need a custom downpipe made for the 818 if you want any real gains in the exhaust. That is unless some after-market make some for the 818. I'll contact some and see if any are interested. From there the up-pipe is the next biggest thing. If you want more out of headers with EL you need to get either the killer bee or full race headers. Grimmspeed makes a good port/polish/coated header from the OEM with their own crosspipe as well.


What I'm more personally interested in seeing is how they are going to do NA exhaust still.

[shinn497]

I don't think this is the final exhuast design. Further, it seems like FFR is working with aftermarket parts manufacturers anyway. Check the AJW performance thread.

[SkiRideDrive]

The most gains will be from the downpipe. It looks like you'll need a custom downpipe made for the 818 if you want any real gains in the exhaust. That is unless some after-market make some for the 818. I'll contact some and see if any are interested. From there the up-pipe is the next biggest thing. If you want more out of headers with EL you need to get either the killer bee or full race headers. Grimmspeed makes a good port/polish/coated header from the OEM with their own crosspipe as well.


What I'm more personally interested in seeing is how they are going to do NA exhaust still.

Thanks for the info. http://www.grimmspeed.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=60_33_34

These guys seem to cover the whole spectrum, they'll port the headers, turbo, tgv's, and provide the up pipe.

If you're not planning on running any mufflers or cats after the turbo, it shouldn't be too difficult to mock up the piping from the turbo on out, could probably just use the stock downpipe flange and work from there.

[tirod]

Yes, downpipes are important. What the engineers decided to do on the '90 4.0 Cherokee was place a sizable dent in it that chokes it pre cat. By '92 it was gone, along with the pipe stub tubular exhaust manifold. The best setup is the '96 and above.

Apparently there was more than 2% to be gained, which is why we see continued evolution in design, where over the succeeding years, one improvement after the other is added and the whole thing gets modified to the point where it's a completely different part. MOST EARLY HOT RODDING WAS FIGURING OUT HOW TO GET THE LATER MODEL PARTS TO FIT.

This First Gen 818 is just in it's beginning - we're already into the Mk IV Roadster, the Daytona Coupe has moved to it's next body, etc. We haven't seen the hard top, and the wheels haven't spun at the start of the first Competition race. Most importantly, even when things do get settled, if you don't like it, get a Sawzall out and weld it up your way. It's still a canvas waiting to be worked on.

180 headers, undercar exhaust, and all.

[skullandbones]

Nobody has mentioned intake manifold as a source of increased power. I haven't worked on these engines but I think I would build a nice intake with short runners and large plenum and use the stock exhaust manifolds as suggested above. If an after market shop didn't offer one, it would be a great DIY project especially if you can TIG weld. IMO, WEK.

[Etos]

Nobody has mentioned intake manifold as a source of increased power. I haven't worked on these engines but I think I would build a nice intake with short runners and large plenum and use the stock exhaust manifolds as suggested above. If an after market shop didn't offer one, it would be a great DIY project especially if you can TIG weld. IMO, WEK.

That's because the OEM ones are really good already. AM ones give very small gains and cost ALOT. Hell for my 08 STi that's going to put out 500+ hp I'm using an 05-09 Legacy GT intake for a reverse intake manifold setup.

[NicksPapaw]

I thought we were talking about what was new with the picture. ha ha I love how these threads develop a life of their own. I really makes some interesting reading. Please don't stop on my account. I am just making an observation here. Now back to the regular scheduled program..... :)

[Mechie3]

Most people just port and polish the intake manifold and coat it with a thermal dispersant. I got one free from Grimmspeed. I felt a small difference, but it wasn't as noticeable as a downpipe or other exhaust parts.

[skullandbones]

I thought we were talking about what was new with the picture. ha ha I love how these threads develop a life of their own. I really makes some interesting reading. Please don't stop on my account. I am just making an observation here. Now back to the regular scheduled program..... :)

Well: the thread started out as "what's new" and then someone else said, "nothing". So where does the thread go from there. The engine is the biggest thing in the pic besides Jim. It's only natural to start contemplating mods on the engine but I get your drift. Some of the threads really do take on lives of their own. I think that just goes to show how desperate everybody is for info. WEK. :(

[NicksPapaw]

I wonder if that rollbar configuration might be for the street car, while the picture posted on Factory Five's site is the race version? Dave did say he will have both at SEMA. We might be looking at the first street 818 frame. Remember, you heard it here first. :)

[BrandonDrums]

The downpipe will certainly need to be modified. As it sits now, the oem flange to oem flange "extender" pipe is a huge limiting factor in turbocharger performance. Maybe not for the test car as it's using a stock TD04 turbo which is so small that it's not getting that much more back-pressure from the smaller pipe. However, anything larger would benefit from a divorced or bellmouth 3'' downpipe bolted to the turbo hotside.

I prefer bellmouth as the wastegate flap opens at an angle and a divorced pipe usually gets blocked by the flap.

Ragardless, having the wastegate flap blocked off by a flange forces the gasses to bottleneck and go around a corner to make it out the DP. On a big turbo with a big turbine housing that would result in boost creep as there would be still less restriction for the exhaust to go through the turbine housing to exit even with the wastegate flap open.

Fortunately, ebay downpipes can be had for well less than 100 bucks, One can then saw one up and weld it to replace whatever comes with the kit if it's not a bellmouth design.

[Mechie3]

All you'd need really is a different downpipe adapter. Something with two pipes welded together to make a sort of figure 8 perimeter would be easy enough to make. You could even stick with the stock downpipe and just put a large extender on it. The flat flange would be far enough away from the turbo that it wouldn't matter.

[ursa5000]

Great "spy" shot. Wow, this really is going to be a low profile, "E" ticket ride.. I can't wait !!! .... Maybe I should order a red pennant with an FFR logo mounted onto the rollbar, so that the other vehicles on the street will see me coming up their tail?

Da Bear

[bugeye_fever]

As was said earlier, its nice to see it with people in the picure for size reference. This thing is going to be low!! Every new pictures excites me more. It looks so wide, but i know its still the stock subaru track, so that just means its got to be very low! Also makes me wonder how much tire is on it. What do you guys think 255's?

And Bear, that is a great idea! Hope it comes with the kit, haha.