Coyote first start question - does not turn over

[Jester]

Coyote experts needed

Q:

I have completed the install and wiring etc. all fluids except rad fluid as I want to turn the engine over a few times before starting to check oil pressure.

Wiring is sufficient - only a few gauges remain.

Car in neutral - and when I turn the key to start position, I hear the fuel pump and I hear the solenoid engaging the starter but the engine does not turn over.

I have removed the spark plugs to eliminate compression and with the car in 1st gear, the car does not want to move when pushed, which I thought that by pushing the car in gear should turn the engine over?

I will check the starter and remove to see of pushing the car can turn the engine over.

If this does not work I may have to pull the engine and trains and remove the trans/bell housing and clutch to check for binding. When installed - all seemed to go together as anticipated with no glitches.

Are there any ideas that may help before I pull the motor.

Is there a requirement for water / coolant to be installed before the motor will turn over - I would not think so?

Thx

[riptide motorsport]

Need more info., is the starter trying to turn over? If so push in the clutch pedal and see if it turns over. You can turn the engine with a socket on the front dampner/harmonic balencer.

[riptide motorsport]

What do you mean by solenoid trying to engage the starter? Is it just clicking or is the starter spinning. if its just clicking you may have a bad ground or a bad solenoid or a low battery or incorrect wiring .

[Jester]

Thx riptide

Yes - clicking but does not turn over. I removed the starter and no luck - engine seems to be locked.

I tried turning over the engine using the front bolt as suggested and no movement (plugs are out so this should be a no brainier). This is a new Coyote out of the box. Must be binding from the trans install.

Can anyone confirm the Coyote when installed can be turned over from the front bolt crank bolt (pulley)

I will think about this overnight before pulling the engine and removing the trans and checking again.

Note to self - should have checked this before installing the engine.

Looks good though

Good thing it is a long weekend

[oldguy668]

If you can't turn it with a socket on the front damper bolt, I would suspect an issue with the transmission. Maybe it's hung up between two gears.

[Jester]

thx - I agree

I will loosen the trans and slide it back tomorrow to check.

Hopefully better luck tomorrow

[ClemsonS197]

My alternator locks when off. Take the belt off and try and turn it. It should turn over. No need for coolant for a short run time.

[Jester]

Update

Pulled the trans and still locked. Pulled the motor and removed bell housing. The problem was the stock FRPP aluminum bell housing was interfering with the fly wheel in 2 locations. I will grind the bell housing and check clearance and re-install. Hopefully first start tomorrow.

[oldguy668]

My alternator locks when off. .

That does not sound right!

[ipsale]

I had the same problem with the FRPP bell housing. There were 2 poind on mine that needed to be "messaged" a little to give clearance for the fly wheel. The only difference between your experience and mine is that the guy at Ford Racing told me to be aware of the issue, Too bad he didn't clue you in. Enjoy the coyote!

[Jester]

Exactly

Two small locations (bold sleeves) on the bell housing where interfeering a few teeth on the fly wheel.

I will address the clearance tomorrow and button up - should be running tomorrow.

[Jester]

Update

Ther ewere actually 3 bols sleeves interferring slightly with the fly wheel. First I filed the 2 obvious locations with interference and test fit the hi using. Still did not work so after closer inspection there was a 3rd bolt sleeve with the slightest flywheel tooth imprint. After further grinding - all ok.

Reinstalled the engine and trans, driveshaft etc

After much heavy lifting this weekend I still have to run the final connections before first start - next weekend with any luck

[Mustang Man]

Joe, the Coyote (as well as the Shelby GT500 5.4L and most of the 3-Valve engines) has a one way clutch built into the alternator pulley. This is to prevent over-speed condition during shifting. Perhaps this is what Clemson is referring to, as the alternator will not spin but one direction...

Mark

[JeepFlyer]

Jester, what model number of bellhousing were you using? ...with what trans? I'm trying to avoid this issue in the future.

[Jester]

The aluminum bellhousing is FRPP # M 6392-M46, is very well made and light weight.

This is no big deal as long as you are are aware of the issue and do not do as I did (install without checking clearance - who would have thought). A few minutes with the grinder and this could have been avoided if the FRPP rep would have informed me vs tear down and reinstall etc and still no first start (plus possible tertiary damage).

Hopefully the starter is not damaged etc.

I will provide an update on the weekend

[David Hodgkins]

Good luck Jester. I was reading along but had no input for you... :D

Here's hoping for better luck this weekend!

:)

[Jester]

Thx David and others for the replies

No worries - this is half of the fun with being one of the first to install a Coyote into a MK4. Hopefully others will avoid this issue.

Can't wait to hear the Coyote come alive!

[riptide motorsport]

Need to make this a stcky for the Coyote builds

[JeepFlyer]

you didn't happen to take any pictures did you?

I got a quote from Mike Forte about using a quicktime bellhousing. Any known issues with those?

[Jonathan D]

Need to make this a stcky for the Coyote builds

x2 - It would be great to have a coyote dedicated section

[Jester]

Update

I completed re-attaching the wiring, replace the starter solenoid, double checked connections and turned the key. All good, she turns over and is ready to come alive. No apparent damage other than the solenoid.

This was no big issue and I think the FRPP bell housing is a quality part as long as everyone using it is aware of the interference issue.

The good thing is that when I took the engine out, I was able to double check and tighten the fuel line connections that are not easy to access with the engine in place, I have become very good at removing and installing the engine, and I took several photos of the DS and PS foot box mods with the engine removed.

Now on to connecting the remaining gauges before the first start.

[Jonathan D]

I'm sure your happy to have that one solved, can you share a few pics of the foot box mods you did?

[Jester]

Update: recently the Coyote has come ALIVE! Sounds FANTASTIC - a nice deep rumble at idle (actually quite quiet and won't wake the neighbours) and screams when pushing the rt foot. On idle she does sound mean though. Modifications made to the stock straight pipes allowed connection of the side pipes and O2 sensors. A quick turn of the key and without hesitation she came alive with a deep growell. Oil pressure and other guages came up nicely.

Unfortunately I have not had the time to post photo's yet but I will do so once I get everything buttoned up. Between work and my build ther ehas not been much time to post photos.

[Jester]

I have attached a before and after photo ofthe bell housing interference

1061610617

[ClemsonS197]

Jester,

Any chance you can take some pics of your j-pipe modifications? Did you start with 4.6L or 5.0L J-pipes?

[Jester]

I'm sure your happy to have that one solved, can you share a few pics of the foot box mods you did?

Jonathan: footbox mods were completed after headers arrived to be sure proper clearances for both DS & PS. DS- gained ~ 2inches on gas pedel side and for PS - gained ~ 2 inches toward the trans tunne - also note the computer mount location
l10634

[Jonathan D]

Thanks Jester, looks great. Do you have any more pics of the box you made for the computer, it looks very secure.

[Jester]

Additional footbox pics10707107081070910710

[teesalmon]

The aluminum bellhousing is FRPP # M 6392-M46, is very well made and light weight.

This is no big deal as long as you are are aware of the issue and do not do as I did (install without checking clearance - who would have thought). A few minutes with the grinder and this could have been avoided if the FRPP rep would have informed me vs tear down and reinstall etc and still no first start (plus possible tertiary damage).

Hopefully the starter is not damaged etc.

I will provide an update on the weekend

I found an interference with mine trying to check the alignment of the bellhousing centerline to that of the cranks. I was trying to turn the engine over by hand and it would not budge. The ring gear was contacting the bellhousing. I also found that mine was out of spec. I'm calling Tremec tomorrow to understand explicitly the requirements since they may not agree with the Ford Racing published requirements. In any case, my bellhousing centerline is about 0.009 inches below that of the crank which some people will say will cause trans bearing damage.

[FFinisher]

Interesting find, I have done several Coyote installs...6 off the top of my head... And have used the FRPP bell housing on 4 of them and have not seen this issue!

Thanks for posting I will watch for it on future builds..

[teesalmon]

I have attached a before and after photo ofthe bell housing interference

1061610617

The short story. I found mine to interfere when trying to make sure my bellhousing was concentric and parallel. I tried to turn the engine over by hand with no spark plugs and it wouldn't budge due to the flywheel scraping at only one point.

My bellhousing was not parallel nor concentric. I spent DAYS getting this dialed it. In the end it required 0.016 shims at the top, and 0.007 offset dowel pins. I also had to grind clearance for the clutch arm since the casting was poorly located when they started drilling the holes, they were all "clocked" if you will. The clutch arm is located with respect to how the trans attaches, but the opening is part of the casting. I will go with Quicktime if I build another.

[michael everson]

Do you really think ford checks the runout? My guess is the .009 you saw is within normal range.
Mike