How do you set up a wide band O2 system?

[skullandbones]

I spent a lot of time worrying about where to put my narrow band O2 sensors and ended up welding bungs into the side pipes close to where the four tubes "collect". So after that logistical issue and lengthening the wiring harness to fit it, I really didn't want to scrap that and start over with a wide band system. However, if I want the range that a wide band O2 system offers, it may be necessary. I have asked this question before in other threads but don't seem to ever get an answer.

So I'll try again. If you get a "wide band" system do you keep what you have and add another bung to accept the new sensor?

Also, it looks like you only get one sensor in a kit so where is the best place to locate it?

Since I have three water temp sensors on my engine, multiple sensors is not a real issue but I don't want to add to the complication if it can be avoided. A clear explanation of this would be greatly appreciated. I really think I need the wide band system to go to the next level of tuning but I really want it to be installed so it gives me accurate readings. Thanks, WEK. :confused:

[1fastsedan]

I spent a lot of time worrying about where to put my narrow band O2 sensors and ended up welding bungs into the side pipes close to where the four tubes "collect". So after that logistical issue and lengthening the wiring harness to fit it, I really didn't want to scrap that and start over with a wide band system. However, if I want the range that a wide band O2 system offers, it may be necessary. I have asked this question before in other threads but don't seem to ever get an answer.

So I'll try again. If you get a "wide band" system do you keep what you have and add another bung to accept the new sensor?

Also, it looks like you only get one sensor in a kit so where is the best place to locate it?

Since I have three water temp sensors on my engine, multiple sensors is not a real issue but I don't want to add to the complication if it can be avoided. A clear explanation of this would be greatly appreciated. I really think I need the wide band system to go to the next level of tuning but I really want it to be installed so it gives me accurate readings. Thanks, WEK. :confused:

The answer really depends on your ECU and how you plan on using your wideband sensor. When I use them, its typically for monitoring only, not engine management. In that situation, yes you'll need another bung on the exhaust mid-pipe (after the collector and hopefully before a muffler). If you know your motor has a lean or fat side, then put it on the lean side. Otherwise, you can put it on either side.

If your ECU accepts wide-band readings, then you may replace your narrow band sensors with the wide band sensors and use your existing bungs.

[Mike N]

A lot of wide band systems have a narrow band emulator output that you can use instead of the factory sensor. My WMS unit has one but I have never used it so can't tell you how well it works.

[skullandbones]

The answer really depends on your ECU and how you plan on using your wideband sensor. When I use them, its typically for monitoring only, not engine management. In that situation, yes you'll need another bung on the exhaust mid-pipe (after the collector and hopefully before a muffler). If you know your motor has a lean or fat side, then put it on the lean side. Otherwise, you can put it on either side.

If your ECU accepts wide-band readings, then you may replace your narrow band sensors with the wide band sensors and use your existing bungs.

1fast: you say you don't use your wide band for engine management but what if you note a lean situation for instance? Wouldn't that warrant an engine management decision or would that just indicate that something is broken or wearing out? Have to play devil's advocate to see how this really works. Sorry!

Mike,

Do you have your factory sensors still hooked up along with the new wide band and where is the wide band sensor located? Thanks, WEK.

[1fastsedan]

1fast: you say you don't use your wide band for engine management but what if you note a lean situation for instance? Wouldn't that warrant an engine management decision or would that just indicate that something is broken or wearing out? Have to play devil's advocate to see how this really works. Sorry!
Typically, I leave the narrow-band sensors in place. Those are what the ECU uses...and that's what I meant by engine management. When you're using your wide-band for monitoring, if you log/note a lean spot then you go in to the ECU and adjust the tune.

[skullandbones]

1fastsedan,

Did you always use the wide band in conjuction with a management system like Megasquirt or have you used it for monitoring before you got a management system? Also, where do you have your wide band sensor located? Thanks, WEK.

[1fastsedan]

I use the wide band as a stand-alone sensor to determine if the ECU/tune is working right. So I guess that is in conjunction with the ECU, but not plugged into it at all.

My wide band sensor is right next to the narrow band sensor right after the header pipes come together.

[Mike N]

Mike,
Do you have your factory sensors still hooked up along with the new wide band and where is the wide band sensor located? Thanks, WEK.

I have shorty headers so it was easy to just weld another bung directly alongside the one for the ECU. I have an extra bung on each side so that I can swap the wide band from bank to bank in case I need to for trouble shooting. Prices are way more reasonable these days if I were to do it over I would have a two sensor system.

[crash]

For my ECU the measurement is 4.5 inches from the final collector for that side of the engine. In other words, if you have something like a tri-Y setup, 4.5 inches from the furthest 2 into 1. :)

Some sensors are prone to having issues if mounted with the wired end coming out in the down half of the pipe. You may want to contact the manufactuer of the O2, or just be safe and mount it in the upper half of the tube circumferrence.

[CraigS]

I don't have efi so only have a wideband for carb tuning. I mounted it in the collector about 3 inches back from the four pipes. I have it up high to avoid any condensation problems. it's been there for 3 yrs and still working great. Of course this makes it plainly visable so there are a few times when I remove it and plug the bung.

[skullandbones]

Craig,

Can you give a couple of examples where the wide band has helped you tune your carb? I was thinking that for my EFI, I would be pretty limited on what I can do without an engine management system but I guess if it got lean during a pass between 4000 and 6000 rpms say in third gear, I could note that and may have to try advancing the timing a little or increase the fuel rail pressure and see if that helped. It may even warrant a change in FP to get the necessary pressure. Just wondering if you have really gotten a significant benefit out of it.

I have my 2 02 sensors about 2 inches aft of the 4 tube headers where they collect into one and I have them on the inside just a little below 3 o'clock to clear the body. If I add another bung it will have to be another inch aft.

It would be nice to have a gauge kit that would let you keep a data log but I guess that comes with the other EMS device. Plus, I don't know if I can devide my attention from everything spedo, tach, oil pressure, water temp, A/F, what else*%#.................

I think I will bug the reps at autometer for a while.

Thanks for your input, WEK.

[CraigS]

The wideband has been a lifesaver. I used to do 1st,2nd,and part of 3rd gear runs but that had the graph bouncing all over the place w/ each shift. I found that 3rd gear full throttle from about 2000-5000 make a nice useable graph. Here is a shot of a graph. I ignore the couple of big jogs at the beginning which are the initial mash of the gas pedal. And the one at end is where I let off and hit 4th.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/craig-s/th_session7.jpg (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/craig-s/session7.jpg)
Click to enlarge. You can see that the car is too rich at the beginning and then leans out and is just about right at 7 to 8.5 seconds (the numbers along the bottom).I have it better now w/ a nice flat line but it's still a little too rich overall so still working on jet swaps. Can't always do a run to 80mph or so and this becomes a bit of a drawn out process but it's rewarding and the car is a lot better than it was a year ago. I strongly recommend you get something that records as I try looking at the digital readout while driving but that doesn't work so well as the speed goes up.

[1fastsedan]

It would be nice to have a gauge kit that would let you keep a data log but I guess that comes with the other EMS device. Plus, I don't know if I can devide my attention from everything spedo, tach, oil pressure, water temp, A/F, what else*%#.................

There are gauges that let you data log like that. Check out Zeitronix, their wideband set-up lets you data log. If you have an OBD2 port, you can data log on a lap top with most hand-held programmers or tuning software. Lastly, if you find a lean spot, you adjust your maps or increase injector pulse width. Fuel pressure is generally constant in an EFI motor. If its not, you need a bigger line or bigger pump.

[skullandbones]

That's what I meant in my example that if on your EFI engine you were leaning out when there is great demand, it could be starving for fuel just at that point but that could be when you "blow" your engine. I think I need to upgrade to a bigger pump myself but I don't have any empirical data to back that up. Once I had an engine (big block with 2 4 bl carbs). I had a mechanical pump, and two electric ones. It seemed to be happy after the addition of the electric pumps. The pumps are a lot better these days anyway. I don't know about the computer access. I know I have a plug in the Summit EFI harness that is dedicated for diagnostics but I will have to go back and reference the details on that. I have an ECC IV 1992 GT computer. Have not gotten software to use to manage the tuning. But I did order a book on EFI tuning of small blk Ford engines. It should be here today. So I can begin evaluating which tuner will be best for my needs. Thanks for your input. WEK.

[vnmsss]

Thanks for starting this thread. Over the last three years I have become the somewhat unexpected traveller on the road to becoming an EFI tuner....As they say, necessity is the mother of invention (and forced learning I might add), so out of sheer necessity, I had to become my own tuner. I've read everything I can put my hands on regarding EFI tuning, and as these systems developed over the last 5-10 years, the newer systems are so advanced that their capacity is simply amazing in their capacity. There are any number of them that will allow even us grassroots motorsports and performance enthusiasts to easily optimize and safeguard our motors with a solid tune.

When I needed an engine management system for the #28 Coupe, I turned to DIY AutoTune, and with the assistance of fellow Coupe builder and dyno expert John Card, we've successfully run the MegaSquirt system in our Coupe with great performance for three years. We're now ready for the engine management system for the new Competition Coupe, and I've worked with Jerry and Ben at DIY on the MegaSquirt 3 system with built-in data logging capability and sequential A/F tuning. I'll be running two wide band sensors so we can balance and optimize the banks. Would be great to get data on each cylinder, but at the level we're running it seems like overkill to have 8 sensors.....I'm sure guys like John Card and the folks at DIY have forgotten more about this stuff than I'll ever know, but it's fun learning all the parameters, and really cool to have your motor make great HP and TQ and just run and run. Good luck in your tuning!

Karen

[Wayne Presley]

Wideband O2's are great, and Karen hit the nail on the head that you can be your own best tuner. I have better luck teaching my customers how to tune then they have finding a "tuner" to get the best results from their EFI systems. Wideband O2's work great with carbs too.

[skullandbones]

As usual, this subject seems to create as many new questions as answers, at least, for me. I do appreciate the input from everyone. I have been juggling the logistics of putting in a wide band O2 system. Now that I have done a little more searching and with the input there are a few options.

1) I can get a single sensor setup and run on the lean side (if the banks are that much different). So I would install 2 more bungs and run one and plug one until I decided which one to leave in place.

2) Install two single sensor setups or a two sensor setup and have both in place (pricey).

3) Go with Karen's ultimate solution and install one in each exhaust tube (4 tube headers). I know that she and just about anybody else is not going there including me. But it would give some nice data, I bet.

If there are any other options, I can't think of them or haven't seen in the literature.

Did I mention, I finally got my Charles Probst book on Ford EFI. Interesting reading. It really puts things in perspective and don't paint any pretty pictures about how easy it is to tune this EEC system?

The conclusion I came to is that there is a wide gap between running a stock EFI system even with modified components as I have and becoming a "tuner". You guys haven't been sugar coating it either by saying there is a steep learning curve. I have to finish this book and maybe something a little deeper into the tuning game before I will make a decision on whether to tune or not to tune. From what I have read from several sources is that I can probably operate at the level I am now for a while without too much difficulty. If I do the wide band meter, I can be a little better off. But full out tuning will really take some thought before I dive into it. If I can figure out how to do it, I want to do a poll to see what is the breakdown of people with carbed, stock EFI, and tuned EFI (from outside tuner), and tuned EFI (DIY type). I'm curious to see how many are running stock EFI and how it worked (another thread). Thanks for the hints on location of the sensors. I will have to keep that in mind when putting the new ones in. WEK.