Racing?

[slopoke]

After they let this bad boy out of the box next year, has anyone toyed with the idea of fielding a racing team or should finding a way to start a new series like the Challenge series be a better avenue for competition?

[jimgood]

I'll take bets that FFR has already contacted NASA and SCCA about a spec series and classing. But I doubt they're going to publicize it until the car is near production.

[crash]

I would think a spec class would probably be the better route simply because of what the 818 is. It's a tube framed, mid engined, non-production based vehicle that would probably otherwise be classed against some pretty stiff competition, but I haven't really looked at the rule books in regards to the 818 so not 100% sure on that.

[StatGSR]

^my only concerned with it being its own class is that it would be hard to keep it fair with a wrx engine, so you almost have to make it based on one of the NA 2.5s.

[jimgood]

They could use a power-to-weight type of rule similar to the Challenge Series and others. It's never going to be perfect no matter what rules you put in place. They could also mandate the stock ECU, no remapping, no manual boost control, specific intake, a claiming rule where you have to give up your ECU if you win too much, etc.

[Mechie3]

Why would it be hard to keep it fair with the WRX engine? Granted, WRX vs NA is unfair, but if everyone has the WRX engine, why not? Of course the models with more displacement and AVCS will do better, but it's racing. You can't expect to show up with a slow car/motor and win. It's expected you show up with the fast motor and try to compete.

[riptide motorsport]

I believe the whole point of the challenge series is to show who is the most consistant and better driver.

[Mechie3]

If everyone has the same WRX motor (or similar) then it would still be that way. That's how F500/Fmod does it. They allow 3 or 4 different motors. Each motor must be completely stock, use certain intake restrictors/carbs, and each motor has a different minimum weight associated with it.

I only see an unfair advantage if someone is trying to do a super budget build with an NA 2.5. That was the point I was making about racing, is that it's not something you try to get away with the least amount possible and form a series around. You take what most people are going to do (WRX motor) and do the series around that.

[WonderDude]

Maybe they could break it into separate classes.

[crash]

I have been intimately involved in creating race classes before and what usually happens is that the cars are run in whatever class they fall into. Preferrably, actually, where they are the SLOWER of the average of the cars in the same class. Once a few cars show up, then the group of, say 818s, start together in the back and end up having a race within a race amungst themselves. Then if enough cars start showing up, they will indeed get their own class designation and be scored seperately from the others on track at the same time.

It is an evolutionary type of thing usually, and it takes time and patients by those that have the slower cars if they indeed want to have their own class. Just having a new class, or two, or whatever, out of the box, before the actual car is even released, is not usually how it happens...unless there is a ton of $$ behind the effort.

[Hankl]

I believe the whole point of the challenge series is to show who is the most consistant and better driver.

Rip,
I think the initial intent was to have a group of cars that were of equal capabilities, and allow entry level pricing for new racers to enter the fray.


I have been intimately involved in creating race classes before and what usually happens is that the cars are run in whatever class they fall into. Preferrably, actually, where they are the SLOWER of the average of the cars in the same class. Once a few cars show up, then the group of, say 818s, start together in the back and end up having a race within a race amungst themselves. Then if enough cars start showing up, they will indeed get their own class designation and be scored seperately from the others on track at the same time.

It is an evolutionary type of thing usually, and it takes time and patients by those that have the slower cars if they indeed want to have their own class. Just having a new class, or two, or whatever, out of the box, before the actual car is even released, is not usually how it happens...unless there is a ton of $$ behind the effort.


Guys,

Crash is absolutely correct, if enough of you start showing up with these cars, you can draw support for a separate class. Crash has "Been there and Done that", this is the type of person that you want helping with drawing a crowd to a 818 Racer.
I don't want to put works in his mouth, but I think if enough of you were serious about a race group, Crash, since he builds GTMs, of both street and race configurations, could be instrumental to developing products, along with the advise on how to
apply everything to a 818 Race group. You guys just need to ask him, Hint, Hint!!

Hank :cool:

[crash]

Thanks for the kind words Hank, but really the only thing that might "cross over" at this point would be the wings that I produce. The problem is that the smallest one I make, 60 inches, goes for $6,000. It is not a toy or something that just looks cool. It builds serious down force. I am in the midst of the CFD(computational fluid dynamics) analysis to determine the characteristics of the profile and will be track testing later this year.

Unfortunately, for a car that is supposed to be "budget" and be able to be built for under $15-$20,000, a $6,000 wing doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Maybe something even smaller that will work for the 818R, but these are hand layed and made in small quantities, and with all the development costs...well they get pricey.

To put it into perspective, the same style wings, making hopefully the same amounts of down force, from other companies, in carbon fiber, go for better than $20,000. So I am actually trying to capture the "budget" market with a $6,000-$8,000 wing! Obviously it's all relative, but I really think the average 818R builder is going to have a tough time swallowing the costs of these wings even if I were to make one available for, say, $3,000.

I'm not trying to be condicending, just trying to point out the realities of the costs of the parts that I manufacture and that the intended use/application of the 818R doesn't really fit what I am currently producing.

Again, thanks for the kind words though, and I am always available to Dave and Co, or anyone else that would like to discuss sanctioned racing items, events, rules, etc.

Who knows, maybe something will turn up in regards to the 818 that I end up interested in producing, but I gotta wait to see what the actual product is from FFR first! :)

[bromikl]

I think the problem of having a turbo class is that the range of potential power levels is too wide. And it's difficult to match power to power in the same weight class. If we're talking about "cheap" racing, N/A is the way to go.

OR - the cars can be classed according to qualifying times. If you race too far under your qualifying time, you get disqualified.

[StatGSR]

Why would it be hard to keep it fair with the WRX engine? Granted, WRX vs NA is unfair, but if everyone has the WRX engine, why not? Of course the models with more displacement and AVCS will do better, but it's racing. You can't expect to show up with a slow car/motor and win. It's expected you show up with the fast motor and try to compete.

actually my point was more to the fact that the stock ecu can be tuned and not look any different, turbos can be modified and not look any different. those two things alone could potentially destroy the possibility of a spec series with a WRX engine (because they could both net about 75hp or more). not to say somebody could put hot cams in a 2.5, but i would suspect there would be less "cheaters" with a 2.5 engine.

if its basically open and unrestricted, then the guy with the most money is going to have the best shot at winning, which would defeat the point of owning it as a race car, atleast for me anyway.

[crash]

if its basically open and unrestricted, then the guy with the most money is going to have the best shot at winning, which would defeat the point of owning it as a race car, atleast for me anyway.

Then you've never raced in a competitive "spec" class. Because it is spec, does not neccessarily mean it is any cheaper. It actually can end up costing MORE because you have to have the best of the spec stuff to beat the other guy. It comes down to such infintessimal differences that the parts become very expensive if you want to be fast. Probably the best way to regulate a class that I have seen is to use intake restrictors and spec tires. With these two things, everything else is pretty well limited.

[FFRSpec72]

Then you've never raced in a competitive "spec" class. Because it is spec, does not neccessarily mean it is any cheaper.

Agree, I hope this will be cheaper than the Challenge series as the initial investment is high ~20K and initial investment in Spec Miata is ~9K and same for Spec E30. I would hope this would come in somewhere in between. So with a tube frame you will either have to be in a Spec class or you will be thrown in a class with other high powered cars.

[prematureapex]

actually my point was more to the fact that the stock ecu can be tuned and not look any different, turbos can be modified and not look any different. those two things alone could potentially destroy the possibility of a spec series with a WRX engine (because they could both net about 75hp or more). not to say somebody could put hot cams in a 2.5, but i would suspect there would be less "cheaters" with a 2.5 engine.

if its basically open and unrestricted, then the guy with the most money is going to have the best shot at winning, which would defeat the point of owning it as a race car, atleast for me anyway.

While I'm on board with the 2.5l N/A engines...

A 2.0 Ej20 series with a mandatory ECU swap pre-race could work to. Everyone hands in their -stock- ECU, get distributed randomly for the race.

[FFRSpec72]

While I'm on board with the 2.5l N/A engines...

A 2.0 Ej20 series with a mandatory ECU swap pre-race could work to. Everyone hands in their -stock- ECU, get distributed randomly for the race.

Cheating would not be a concern of mine as you can easly tell who is not running spec. I would also hate to be handed a faulty ECU before a race. Spec classes work by open competition, no real need for governance.

[Mechie3]

Swapping ECU's only works if everyone has the same model year. Wiring harnesses changed year to year in most Subarus.

I like the way F500 does it. Limit body work, limit motor/carbs (inlet restrictor basically), hav a spec tire, everything else goes within those confines (and a few more). There's only so much that can be done that most people don't do anything. Those that do, don't always win.

[PhyrraM]

Doesn't FFR already have a reasonable tempate to launch from with the Roadster series?

[rhenry01]

I was looking through the NASA STR rules and found that would probably be the most logical place for the 818. In STR2 (the slower cars) an 1800lb car with a 210lb driver using 245mm wide DOT tires could have a max of 225hp, about what the stock 2.0L WRX turbo engine puts out. Very entry level 818 racing with a basically stock engine. You could probably do some tuning to get a flatter HP/Torque curve and 225hp would move the car around the track nicely. STR1 gives you a higher power/weight ratio with the same adjustments for tires.

Since the 818 is coming in near the lower limit of competition weight it is (IMO) an ideal platform to start with. STR competition weight is the car and driver and remaining fuel so no advantage for skinny folks over us more ample drivers:( The one area that may hurt the 818 is aero. Aero in the ST classes is unlimited (for the most part) so it's up to the designers to keep CD low and the owners of the cars to work to build downforce.

[bugeye_fever]

I think it would be cool if there was an 818 challange series based on power to weight ratio, so that guys can choose from the wide range of Subaru powerplants. Maybe have a spec tire in a width that would give advantage to the lighter end of the spectrum. This is coming from someone who isn't currently involved in club racing (I'm working on that.) To the experienced guys, is that a possible way to even the playing field or no?

[shinn497]

That would give unfair advantages to vehicles in different weight classess.

[rhenry01]

I think it would be cool if there was an 818 challange series based on power to weight ratio, so that guys can choose from the wide range of Subaru powerplants. Maybe have a spec tire in a width that would give advantage to the lighter end of the spectrum. This is coming from someone who isn't currently involved in club racing (I'm working on that.) To the experienced guys, is that a possible way to even the playing field or no?

To have a series you have to have enough cars competing to make a class and attract a series sponsor. And for any given tire size the lighter car is going to have an advantage, that is why heavier cars are allowed more HP. Judging from history the best way to get your own series is to dominate a class so thoroughly that everyone else is ready to burn the race organizers at the stake if they don't do something about "that" car! That's usually when something happens.

[bugeye_fever]

OK so I pretty much answered my own question looking in the NASA rule book. I was thinking of a class like NASA St or str. You start out with a power to weight ratio, that gets adjusted depending on modifications to the car.

[rhenry01]

OK so I pretty much answered my own question looking in the NASA rule book. I was thinking of a class like NASA St or str. You start out with a power to weight ratio, that gets adjusted depending on modifications to the car.

I did a little excel spreadsheet that started from the base power/weight ratio and calculated the adjustments for wheel. Just enter the car weight and driver weight, select tire and it tells you how much hp you can have. It will be a great tool for taking to the tuner and know exactly how much hp you are allowed given the variables for weight. So it boils down to same old three things, power (or power curve,) aero and handling.

But it will be fun trying to figure out the perfect combination.

[bugeye_fever]

Yeah, this thing would probably be great in ST2 if it gets approved to run in that class.