Any 33 coupes built for track duty?

[aesthetect]

I know the kit pretty well is by definition but I'd really like to hear from anyone who has actually spent a fair amount of time on the track in a FF 33 coupe...

how is the electric assist steering?
how does it feel to drive an indy car with a live axle?
are the brakes sufficient?
to put it purely, what i really want to know, how does the car feel?

im also very keen on the idea of IRS, or really just not keen on the idea of a solid axle. ive been searching, but is IRS supposedly in the works for future orders? id really really like to hear from anyone (65 or MK4 owners included) who have strong feelings or comparative experience with either from a performance standpoint.

i am essentially trying to sort out a track car for myself. options currently range from a ariel atom to a BRZ to a porsche cayman... i really want something that will provide road race excitement for me for years to come, and highly value chassis dynamics and 'FEEL' ...which is part of what makes me apprehensive about signing up for a (kit)car that i basically have little idea of what i will end up with in that special area of 'feel', but i definitely believe the factory five 33 could be capable of it - if not quite certainly vastly superior. obviously this could vary substantially based on specific components etc but im mostly fishing for comments regarding the geometry and balance, which are largely the same.

ive always been a HUGE fan of rat rods, and have long wanted one as a cruiser.. so the potential to combine these two highly sought ideas into one all-out toy car is just too perfect to ignore.

preciate any input
-gully

[ehansen007]

There's only one guy that has any real track time and that's Tom Veale. I respect his input tremendously as he was a former FFR Challenge car guy. You can look him up on FFcars.com. I haven't done any road course time or taken any corners at high speed yet but I'm looking forward to it sometime soon at Willow Springs. The chassis certainly has the making of a great track car and I'm right with you on the dreams on using it on some road courses. I've seen that a few different car clubs sponsor track days and their safety requirements differ quite a bit. The open wheel thing can raise an eyebrow or two but most seem to be okay with it. Some places like Laguna Seca require full fenders, while places like Fontana require at least a high back seat. I don't see any real competitions being setup where this car fits in but I'm not that well versed in the sport. The car itself is very well balanced and very predictable. I have yet to experience a snap-spin or anything similar to what the cobra can experience in my autocross efforts and even doing donuts is very predictable. The Ridetech car that is being built is absolutely amazing and I hope they start taking that thing out to the road course so I can learn from them.

[j33ptj]

Erik,...

Did you see that last clip RideTech posted on U-tube? it looks awesome!! Sorry don't have the link!

RJ

[aesthetect]

awesome, thanks for the name ehanson, thats just what i needed. in your autox experience with the car, could you get the rear tires loose with enough control to use that to get the car to rotate? or is that too slippery of a slope? yes i do realize these are massively powered 2000lb cars so i expect a fair amount of difficulty in control ;)


looked into the ridetech car, that roll-cage has my expectations up as well!

[ehansen007]

The car is very predictable when it comes to oversteer. Even with crappy tires it recovered calmly and fell back in line. But, mine isn't massively powered either. The other guy I autocross with, Dennis, had a spin at the last Good Guys and it didn't even snap around on him. He was able to recover even though he overcooked a corner pretty bad. Nothing like a cobra. With my Nittos, I have yet to spin the car during competition, knock on wood.

[aesthetect]

sorry, as i'm obviously fairly new to these chassis, what do you mean 'nothing like a cobra'? they are much more prone to spin?

[OCCPete]

sorry, as i'm obviously fairly new to these chassis, what do you mean 'nothing like a cobra'? they are much more prone to spin?

Google "trailing throttle oversteer" ;) High horsepower and short wheelbase make Cobras especially prone to it.

Pete

[aesthetect]

haha, ahh, i see.. im more than familiar with snap oversteer -- its a part of life in the subarus im used to as well, but i can only imagine how much more rampant it is in a rwd car. guess its hard to appreciate how much shorter the cobra wheel base is, but thinking about it, 22" is pretty damn serious, esp on these little chassis'.


im pretty firmly settling in on the idea of this build - but the one thing daunting me is the solid axle. while we're on the subject of cobra/roadsters - whats the consensus there regarding the capability of IRS to increase cornering performance/stability? i know all the theoretical differences, but not so much how they pan out on the track for these cars - so to say how the two suspension compare when properly built/tuned with sway bars etc. my mindset has always been IRS all the way, but i know a lot of development time has gone into the 3link rear on these chassis from the spec racers and the new mustang GT makes a solid case for solid axles. versus the IRS which at this point somewhat seems to be a afterthought in chassis/geometry development. ive been searching through the forum but finding a lot less than expected... im not really concerned with ride quality so much as traction and cornering, but i do plan on pushing it on some less-than-smooth backroads, which is what im gathering is the one time it will really come into play - along with berms, being the main track-concern, obviously...

[Tom Veale]

I know the kit pretty well by definition but I'd like to hear from anyone who has spent time on the track in a FF 33 coupe.
-gully

Hi Ben,
Thanks for the note regarding the '33. While I've raced since 1988, most of it was in vintage English sports cars and one Show Room Stock Mustang 5.0L (1989). I also competed with a FFR Challenge car off and on for about 5 years (some call it a cobra, but I digress).

My '33 is built with a pushrod 5.0 engine warmed over to around 300 Bhp at the rear wheels (E-303 cam, bigger injectors, bigger throttle body, Al Ford GT heads and intake manifold). I have a Tremec 5 speed with standard gear ratios and a rear axle ratio of 3.55:1. Nothing fancy other than the "TruTrac" differential (which I highly recommend. no clutches, only gears)

I drove my Challenge Series car with both the 4 and 3 Link rear end location from FFR. Mine was a very early kit where the 3-Link was an option that my car didn't have. Driving the 4-Link on the track wasn't particularly pleasant when pushing the car hard. It didn't like to take a set in the turn and one had to constantly be vigilant. The binding that is part of the geometry doesn't work as well on a light weight car on the track. The change to 3-Link was quite noticeable and a big improvement at cornering limits. The restriction of the 3-Link is that it won't handle significantly more Hp, I believe.

For most smooth tracks, a solid rear axle works as well or maybe better than independent suspension. (that's, of course, the opinion of someone who's driven mostly solid axle cars on the track!) The ride for the Street can be tamed with better, more adjustable shocks and possibly a change of springs. Much depends upon the local roads. Here in the North, we contend with Frost Heave during the winter months which wrecks the roadways over time.

Overall, the FFR '33 car has very good manners. The Challenge car has just 90" for its wheelbase and weighs the same as the '33. That's five full inches shorter than the Mini Cooper S! The '33 has 112" wheelbase by comparison. So, for the same horsepower, etc, the two drive differently. The Challenge and street FFR replicas have good manners, to a point. However with the short wheel base, if the back end starts to come around, it comes around quickly. Angular momentum similar to a skater spinning with their arms out and then pulling them in. The tighter the arms are to the body, the faster the spin! So, in driving the FFR '65 replica one has to be very quick with the wheel and throttle to control the car entering, at the apex and accelerating out of a turn (skater with arms tucked in). The '33 with its longer wheel base will 'step out' with the back end but at a much slower and more controllable rate. It's easier to catch and more controllable when the back end is loosened up with the throttle (skater with arms fully extended).

Both chassis are designed without anti-sway bars. They could be added to either car, but it might be slightly harder to add a front bar to the '33. In the Challenge Series we balanced the car's handling by spring choice. For instance, initially my Challenge race car had 500#/in front springs and 350#/in rears. The car 'pushed' near the limit with that setup. (actually kind of nice when first learning about the car!) Changing to 400#/in rears put the car in complete 4 wheel drift balance on street or track tires. That's not a big change, but the car's behavior was far better. This same sort of thing can be done on the '33 but I haven't looked at what springs would be "right."

With the stock springs, the '33 is pretty close to dead neutral. I've changed springs on the car because I was attempting to tame the ride. I'll have the car on the track this summer and will be able to evaluate the new springs. I've also changed to QA1, 18 position adjustable shocks at all four corners which was a massive improvement in ride. I probably could have stuck with the same springs if I'd changed the shocks first. However, since the '33 can use longer springs than what came with the kit, a change in length with no spring rate change will help ride without changing cornering dynamics much. Springs are relatively inexpensive and easy to change on the '33, so getting the car balanced should be easy enough.

Again, in a race car , increasing spring rate for handling and balance makes sense. For a dual purpose car, picking the springs that make sense for the highway and then picking a variable (and easily) adjustable shock absorber is the way to go. I think that keeping the car more compliant for the street and adding an anti-sway bar to keep cornering relatively flat could be a good compromise. Body roll is modest on standard springs but for a track car, it could be improved with a good choice of rear bar.

Steering on the '33 is quick and tight. Some drivers and autocrossers have been adding the electric power steering, but mine is non-assisted. Again, because I'm an old fart and started driving cars that had no power steering when I was young, this seems natural. I could see for AutoX that maybe an assist would be nice, but it drives nicely enough on good touring tires on the street that power assist is a luxury, not a necessity.

With ~300 rwhp and similar torque, in a straight line on street tires, mashing the throttle in 2nd gear can break the rear tires loose. The back end steps out mildly and is fun. Personally I feel that adding Hp should be a second step, not first. Learning to drive a car with 7.5 to 8 #/Hp takes some practice, but starting off with 5#/Hp would be like buying a 16 year old a Suzuki super bike and handing him the keys! I did slightly change the throttle linkage on my car to require a bit more travel to help control it from being too aggressive when one first steps on the gas. This helped both on and off the track for control.

I've been driving the '33 with our local Shelby Club at Road America. They had no problem with the car or the cycle fenders. NASA has track time available for non-Race cars in their HPDE program. Both offer good, cheap and abundant track time for the $$$. Seat time is available with a lot of the clubs. Some do time trials and others just offer lots of seat time. Check NASA, Shelby Club of America, local Corvette and Porsche clubs. Also BMW and Audi have club events around the country.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2542&d=1308833355
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2546&d=1308833373
Note these photos of my orange Challenge car and the '33 Ford are taken from the inside of Turn 5. You can see the relative posture of the two cars going around this corner is similar. This is an 80° very hard left hand turn. Maximum speed through it is about 45MPH no matter what car is being driven. Motorcycles and gokarts don't go any faster through there!
more track photos: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=130

Here's the '33 at around 80MPH going around Road America's huge 180° Carossel turn:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2552&d=1308833399
Note the attitude of the two front suspensions. Both the inside and outside wheels are relatively perpendicular to the pavement. Again a 4 wheel drift is easily controlled even at high speeds. None of Road America's 4 miles and 14 turns upset #007.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2544&d=1308833365
(#007 humbles a Porsche)
The Challenge Series cars can be modified to fit into GT1 or 2 SCCA, I believe. As you stated, I'm not sure they're competitive there. While a FFR '65 roadster replica looks nice and round, it flows through the air with all the aerodynamics of a brick! Skinning the entire undercarriage with Aluminum sheeting and adding a proper nose dam and a defuser at the rear would help. Changing the radiator venting to the top of the hood would help its high speed stability and lift.

With the '33, there would need to be a lot of work done to bring it into specs for Safety in most wheel-to-wheel race organizations. One would need to have a full roll over cage, side intrusion panels and probably some footwell protection. Also, being semi-Open Wheel, I don't know in what class it would race. It's probably better as a street car used for Time Trials and open track days. There is definitely potential in it for AutoX, too, if you like it. An occasional trip down a 1/4 mile drag strip can also be fun.

The '33 gets a lot of heads turning, waved to and "thumbs up" from just about anyone on a Harley. Car people look it over very carefully and want to know what it is and of what it's made. The FFR '65 gets looks and questions, but it is a known body shape. I enjoyed my FFR Challenge car on the street and race track. I'd always wanted to build a street rod and it fits my needs nicely.

I'm surprised that there haven't been any attempts to use the chassis and running gear and make a "one off" body for it. I could see a fully fendered '50s or '60s era prototype-like body on the chassis. Something like a Devin SS
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.freewebs.com/gadget1127/1959_devin_ss_tom_hollfelder_2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.freewebs.com/gadget1127/carscarscars.htm&h=690&w=1024&sz=35&tbnid=4WJ7JDcAP-iTrM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=134&prev=/search%3Fq%3DDevin%2BSS%2BPhoto%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo %3Du&zoom=1&q=Devin+SS+Photo&usg=__qlPSZRQW0H2uQNc39qtqOutzKPo=&docid=0nmZEIGHWhuR9M&sa=X&ei=ibDgT_GPCfGu2gWrq_yECg&ved=0CFEQ9QEwAw&dur=10336
or Scarab body, for instance.
http://www.scarab-motorsports.com/
These were great looking cars and were track monsters in their era. They were the last of the "Mid-Front" engined prototypes before the era when pistons got moved to behind the driver!

I hope this helps a bit.

Best regards, Tom

[ehansen007]

Told ya.

[aesthetect]

Tom, I appreciate your reply immensely. I actually got your email just hadn't gotten to respond yet, work is kickiin my *** and really digging into my 'internet research' time - although hopefully that will only speed up the savings needed to get the 33 project started!

You've really answered everything I'd been hoping to know at this point in time, but I don't think I can resist the urge to dig a little deeper.

Good to know about the stock suspension setup's balance as I would plan to run that to get things started and get a feel for what I would want to change. And I hear you completely on using adjustable dampers and some sway bars to tune a agreeably streetable setup.

i also appreciate your input regarding specing for races as that is something im quite unfamiliar with. sounds like wheel to wheel might just not be worth so much extra effort, unless I did all the necessary research and added in a rollcage with all the necessities up front, which would probably significantly compromise streetability (particularly ingress/egress). plus open wheel uncertainty and even then after all that effort still not be competitive? i probably will end up sticking to more open track days.

im still having a tough time letting go of the IRS idea though.. for lots of reasons but id like to think in my head i hadnt made any technical compromises from the other options id be looking at, and from a tuning standpoint the options are just so much more wide open. but that probably will end up depending on a lot of things, particularly whether or not factory five ends up offering a IRS for the 33, and what parts/geometry it uses. engine/trans/rear are likely to be the last things i decide on, although i know id like to be in the 300-400 hp range. the new mustang V6 is looking good as i think it would be fantastic to get good gas mileage out of the thing, especially with the light weight chassis (yes id like to have my cake and eat it too!) plus the engine is so lightweight on its own, but i just dont know if i could stand the idea of building a hot rod without a V8!

[Tom Veale]

Hi Ben,

Please remember the all important Personal Piston Count when deciding upon an engine choice. Mine currently is 47 down from an all time high of 56 a couple of years ago.

There's also the Piston Per Wheel factor. This tends to be influenced heavily by motorcycle ownership. ;)

There are some very nice looking IRS packages that have been done on the '33. I have to believe that there is a potential ride improvement that goes along with the IRS. Also, there really should be no overall change in handling if its done right. I'd stay away from early Covair and Pontiac Tempest Swing Axles, however! :)

I had toyed with the idea of using an old Jaguar twin cam L6, but the engine length would have required some rework of the frame and/or fire wall. I had some pretty fast and scary rides in a 5 Window Coupe powered by the Jag 6 banger with a Paxton supercharger back in the '60s. And, the engine is pretty to look at and sounds terrific.

I hadn't owned an 8 cylinder car in a very long time when I bought the Challenge car. Then I got the 8 cyl. Passat and added the '33. Now it's hard to remember not owning a V8.

Best regards,

[aesthetect]

Please remember the all important Personal Piston Count when deciding upon an engine choice. Mine currently is 41 down from an all time high of 49 a couple of years ago.

oh dear. i fear you may have just ruined what could have been so many wiser future life decisions...


..OH WELL! :D

[Tim Whittaker]

If your set on the IRS , I should have my "bolt on" prototype unit complete in a few weeks. It will be available through Kootenaivalleycustoms.com.

Tim Whittaker

[aesthetect]

Fantastic - any information on it available on line anywhere?

[Tim Whittaker]

Not at this time. I have this and other parts continually in development. About all I can offer at this time is to visit my web site for a feel of the quality of work we do. My build pages reflect some of the parts we offer as they are on a car being completed.

[aesthetect]

just from reading through your build thread I can tell the build quality on that car is top notch, very interested to see this turn out, ill certainly keep following.

would it be safe to say it would be generally similar to the dual lateral link setup used on the roadsters? same pumpkins used there as well?

exciting news!

[Tim Whittaker]

That's correct. I'm basically duplicating what I have on my Cobra in the form of bolt on components. The end user will supply their own shocks, center section and uprights. This reduces the initial purchase cost, allows for individual gearing and a choice of aluminum or iron center section by the builder. Two different mounting options will be offered.

[aesthetect]

is there any distinct difference in the structure (ie available mounting points) in the rear of the 33 as compared to the roadster?

[Tim Whittaker]

The rear structure is considerably different. However, since FFR welds on fittings for both the three link and four link, there are enough points to start with.

[aesthetect]

awesome, thanks for all your help and input guys

i am going to start digging around, but if anyone who reads this has some, id love to see some pics of the rear structure for the 33 suspension mounting

[Tim Whittaker]

Most any build site on this forum, or the other, gives you plenty of ideas on how the 3 and 4 link are attached. Lots to learn from the various build sites. These guys are doing some awesome stuff out there.

[aesthetect]

yeah, sometimes hard to tell what linkages are specific to the 3/4 link rather than the base chassis itself but i have indeed started diggin and am gettin there... then you add in all the custom IRS fitment efforts out there, down the rabbit hole...

[Tom Veale]

Hi Ben, I met up with the RideTech guys this Sunday at Road America. They were there to participate in the Optima Street Car Challenge. I took a bunch of photos and put them in an album for viewing:
http://www.ffcars.com/forums/members/albums/3187-tom-veale/ridetech-road-america-2012-666.html

Bret is a major threat to this year's competition and they're still sorting out the car. Considering they only finished building it a couple of months ago, it performs amazingly well.

Best regards,

[aesthetect]

great pics tom, thanks for the heads up. I actually emailed bret early on as well, he was kind enough to reply with all sorts of insight.

still trying to wrap my head around/get a better understanding of the changes and benefits they made on the front end. he actually implied a bit of unwelcome softness/compliance in the FFR steering rack (when pushed hard obviously); i was going to ask if you had any sort of similar experience as well?

[Tom Veale]

Ben, Re: Steering Rack................................

The steering rack is constructed from two cast aluminum ends and a central tube. The ends are machined to accept the tube. At the Pinion end of the rack you can see some flex between the casting and the tubing with steering input. The bigger the foot print of the front tires, the more noticeable. Bret from RideTech pointed this out to me. I'd never noticed it.

Looking over the situation at first I didn't see a solution. However, there may be a way to gusset the upper part of the rack to compensate for the bottom mounting and torque generated by the pinion input. Maybe spanning from the top of one casting to the other with a brace? I'll be looking at it now that it has come to my attention.

[Tim Whittaker]

Wondering how the geometry works out ? The pivot points of the inner tie rods is critical in regards to bump steer and the relationship to ball joints and "a" arm pivots. I looked into a Flaming River rack but the tie rod pivots are too far apart. I'm looking into this further or an alternative mounting location for the electric PS unit using the FFR supplied rack.