Newbie Rant

[dustmann]

I am new to the forums and this is hardly an appropriate first post, but I feel strongly enough about this subject to go against the grain..

<rant>

I have been reading these forums for quite some time now, and have been following the development of the 818 closely for the last few months. I simply do not understand the mentality of the negative posters on these forums. Many of the posts regarding the body make me forget that I am on a DIY kit car forum. Why is everyone whining about a body that can/will/is being developed right now? This car is going to happen, and holding your breath (even now, when Dave has clearly stated the wheels are in motion ON THIS BODY!) for any differences (or impractical styles) on the 818 is frankly a waste. Dave has taken a huge risk by showing you the real product to generate excitement and get you thinking about additions/paintjobs/wheel combinations/wings/improvements and ideas on how to make this YOUR OWN car.. and now we are going to be in the dark for another six months due to our massive knee jerk reactions to one picture.

Don't like the headlights? You know they are camry lights, you have an accurate CAD (i.e. to scale) design of them in the car, start looking for different lights that YOU like, and figure out a way to create a mold to fabricate them into the camry sized openings. After all, is this much different than what the racers do when they remove the headlights? Honestly, molds and custom fabrication should not be a showstopper.. (this IS a kit car right!?) If such trifling little details are such a consideration, change them! Why even consider a kit car in the first place? Be happy driving off the lot a WRX, MR2, Miata, or spend triple (or more!) the $$ for a real competitor for this car such as a Lotus.

I think for what we are paying, and what it looks like (a massive improvement on any Impreza IMO), it is an outstanding piece of work. It may not look like an exotic (and they are exotic for a reason.. $$$$), but it certainly blows away any competition in performance (I hope), price, and it is by no stretch of the imagination an ugly car.

No matter how thick skinned Dave may be, in the end it is his company, and this is still very much HIS project. He will steer it in his own direction and as with any company we, as consumers, will vote (and effect change) with our wallets and not with outright criticism. In my field, we operate with a little thing called tact, which enables us to voice our opinions, criticisms and suggestions in a way that does not damage relationships. While it can sometimes be masked, human nature forces an emotional connection with a product that we have worked hard on, and it is only natural for us to want others to feel the same way. Dave, as with any leader, will not give up on his dream so easily, and will deliver on his word. Have a little faith in a solid company that I feel, has shown no reason to disappoint.

</rant>

Now that I've got that off of my chest.. I am happy to be here, and will probably post more in the future (hopefully build updates) assuming this introduction doesn't get me banned.. ;) There appear to be a lot of talented and intelligent people on these forums, and I will likely need to enlist the help from your wealth of knowledge and opinions during my future (planned) build.

[Kalstar]

Your not going to get banned, infact I agree. This is Dave's company and some of the statements made were way, way, WAY out of line. If I were him, I would be but hurt too. Keep your chin up Dave, this car will be wildly successful.

[Arrowhead]

I agree also and it's sad that some of the posters have resorted to direct attacks on Dave and the crew. I would think some "time outs" should given to some of the more offensive posters. After all, there is a code of conduct and just because it's a community that is supposed to welcome all opnions, the attacks are unacceptable. Much like with the hot rod intrioduction, I think the FFR community is going though growing pains and opening up to a different demographic. Hopefully this time next year all will be forgotten and kits will be shipping and the posts will turn to "I go karted this weekend, here's a video"

[shim2]

Well said.

[StatGSR]

Welcome to the internet? seriously i feel like some of you guys have never been on a car forum, i have been active on over a dozen forums for about a dozen years, even been a moderator on 3 or so of them. Its not a perfect world in here guys, people are fearless behind a keyboard and a monitor. Is unnecessary hate and even personal attacks common ground? You bet! Is everybody on the internet right? Of course! This is just stuff you have to learn to accept and take with a grain of salt, you cannot let it make you feel like it would if somebody said it to your face, cause maybe 1% of the people that are "mean" on the internet actually have the stones to be mean to someones face, which is usually why it thrives on places where they don't have to be face to face.

I don't know how many times i have told someone to go car forum XXXXXXXX.com to find more info about a question they had, but i always say, "its a great resource, you just have to learn how to wade through all the **** first".

Do not confuse a real community with the ones you find on the internet, they will never be the same and never have the same "feel".

That said, this forum has been the forum i have been the most active on since i joined about a year ago, and even including the recent events, it is the most friendly, welcoming, helpful, and least dramatic forum i have been a part of in many years, and that says something.

[pddjsteve]

I agree completely. In fact, I registered a couple days ago just to post a comment in support of FFR in the other thread.

For everyone that doesn't like the "stock" roadster body: get together, form yourselves a company, and work on producing a different shell. All the body panels are going to do anyways is mount to the go-kart body, you're not going to be doing anything structural, so design and fab from fiberglass/steel/aluminum/cf/whatever the body YOU want. Instead of complaining and ranting and saying you're not going to buy the kit anymore because of this, spend a few grand more and get EXACTLY what you want. And this isn't just a snarky response - I'm already thinking I'm going to do some work on the interior. It will be easier to convince the gf to use the 818 for weekend trips if she knows there will be a stereo, hvac, and real windows.

[Arrowhead]

Do not confuse a real community with the ones you find on the internet, they will never be the same and never have the same "feel".

I disagree. I've been on lots of different forums over the years and the two that are centered around FFR are very different. You do meet these people face to face and have relationships with them in person. When a person bad mouths Dave or the crew or another poster, it will be very uncomfortable if they end up traveling to the factory to pickup thier kit or run into another forum member at a FFR event. Not to mention there are a lot of "garage nights" and build partys the happen during the build. I treat everyone online like they were hanging out in the garage with me.

[vozproto]

Arrowhead... I agree with you. Some forums are different. And from what I hear, the FFR one is one of those that is different.

I have been part of some of the ones that are different as well.
And the sad fact, from my point of view, is that the 818 section of this forum surely isnt ...yet.

[Oppenheimer]

Exactly.

818 forum = other car forums
818 != other FFR forums (not equal)

So it depends on your POV. If you are from FFR, the 818 forum looks like the Wild-West Animal-House. If you are just looking at it like any other forum, its business as usual. It would sad if all the 818 forum ever aspired to was to be like every other car fourm on the net.

[PhyrraM]

I think it might have to do with forum population. The rudest Subaru forums seem to be the biggest ones.

My Subaru forum of choice is small, very focused on the intended car, knowledgeable, and well behaved.

Nasioc is crap. It also happens to be one of the biggest ones. It does, however, hold a treasure trove of knowledge. However, just like a real treasure, a ton of research and digging is involved.

Let me phrase it this way....if the 818 was going to be based on a Volvo donor, the tone of the forum would be more respectful. (IMHO, of course)

[Xusia]

dustmann, good post. I agree that tact should be the norm, and personal attacks should not be tolerated.

StatGSR, while I agree what you mention is the norm, I've had the pleasure of being part of forums where that isn't the case. Because of that, I no longer accept it as OK. We should aspire to a higher standard of behavior than lowest common denominator. I have no problem with differing opinions, but those opinions can be stated politely and respectfully, without insult, negativity, etc. If people can't behave, then show them the digital door.

<my rant>
I get real tired of people using the "I just tell it like it is" excuse for being rude. You can tell it how you see it - because that isn't necessarily "how it is" - and still do it politely. It may be more work to word it well, but that's the price for offering your opinion in the presence of others. Being rude is just lazy. Have the character to step up and do the right thing!
</my rant>

[Flamshackle]

Welcome dustman you have articulated some great thoughts that are shared by many here...

[Evan78]

Maybe if everyone's avatar was a headshot, more people would remember that their comments are directed at a person and should be expressed the same way as if they were standing in front of them. I think it's easier for people to forget to think about how their words will be received.

StatGSR - I imagine that you're not the type of person that always accepts the world as it is. I'm sure sometimes you try to exert your will to change the way things are, however big or small the impact. The fact that inappropriate behavior is an all too common occurrence on the internet is not a reason to let that behavior continue on without being addressed.

My general experience is that the civility is correlated with forum size and the life experience of its members. Most people develop more tact as they age while learning what is effective and appropriate communication, so the younger the crowd, the more b.s. there tends to be.

Part of the problem is that there's a possibility that request will be heard. Since the car is still being developed, the perception is that if a request is made often and loud enough, maybe it will be incorporated. If the car was already set in stone and in production, many conversations would be different.

[RM1SepEx]

I have found that the younger generation is so used to communicating in short texts, tweets etc.. that they are generally more in your face... They don't use one on one, face to face communication like we used to...

Every group I'm associated with using forums ends up with periodic blow ups and flame wars due to some simple miscommunication with absolutely no respect for others and no personal responsibility.

Remember phone booths, dial phones, bag phones etc... now everything is based on rapid, short commincation using a smart phone. It happens so quick the mouth is engaged before the brain is engaged in thought