Don’t let a few bad apples spoil the bunch

[Bullet306]

It seems that a few very vocal detractors have now negatively affected the communication channels for the masses, and that is truly a shame. As I look back through some of the forum postings of the past week, there are actually more that are offering positive input and approval as opposed to a small minority that voiced pointed objections. Constructive criticism is one thing, but the tone of some of the posts has been disgraceful. It is unfortunate for the supporters that no more information will be shared until SEMA, but I understand this decision. I’ve once read that in stadiums a small number of boos are often heard louder than a larger number of cheers, and that seems to be what happened here.

As a past FFR customer and one that is very interested in adding an 818 to my stable in the future, it is a privilege to be able to receive information and offer input at this stage of development for a vehicle I may be purchasing in the future. In my opinion, the price for this privilege is the understanding that my particular design choice or opinion may not be the one that is incorporated for any number of reasons – business, mechanical, engineering, or otherwise. That’s life.

It takes about .0001 seconds after talking to Dave Smith in person to realize he has a passion not only for his company, but for the this entire community that is unrivaled anywhere else. It is my sincere hope that we can all look back on the past week of forum postings as a growing pain that ultimately resulted in a better 818.

[Someday I Suppose]

Bullet, very well said and I agree, I've looked at the whole project with admiration for the guys at FFR and an appreciation for letting us be part of the project. To be given a chance to voice an opinion and as you said add constructive critisim is amazing.

-Scott

[Smitty911]

It seems that a few very vocal detractors have now negatively affected the communication channels for the masses, and that is truly a shame. As I look back through some of the forum postings of the past week, there are actually more that are offering positive input and approval as opposed to a small minority that voiced pointed objections. Constructive criticism is one thing, but the tone of some of the posts has been disgraceful. It is unfortunate for the supporters that no more information will be shared until SEMA, but I understand this decision. I’ve once read that in stadiums a small number of boos are often heard louder than a larger number of cheers, and that seems to be what happened here.

As a past FFR customer and one that is very interested in adding an 818 to my stable in the future, it is a privilege to be able to receive information and offer input at this stage of development for a vehicle I may be purchasing in the future. In my opinion, the price for this privilege is the understanding that my particular design choice or opinion may not be the one that is incorporated for any number of reasons – business, mechanical, engineering, or otherwise. That’s life.

It takes about .0001 seconds after talking to Dave Smith in person to realize he has a passion not only for his company, but for the this entire community that is unrivaled anywhere else. It is my sincere hope that we can all look back on the past week of forum postings as a growing pain that ultimately resulted in a better 818.

Well said. I'm ashamed of some of the personal attacks on the Team. Quite un-called for, you don't like the "look" of something and you call the designers and President of a company all manner of names and make suggestions as to their motive.

One of my favorite quotes "Everyone is brave 2,000 miles away or behind a keyboard."

Smitty

[Niburu]

the emotional response this has been generating, in my opinion, reflects positively on how much people deeply care about this project
just a few folks got carried away by their emotions

[Mike N]

Dave is a very smart guy and has been involved in marketing for many years. I have no doubt that he has been able to figure out for himself a long time ago that there is always going to be the vocal minority and you have to be able to filter or turn the gain down on that element. FFR's have been unfavorably compared to the other "C" replica manufacturers on various forums for as long as I can remember but that has not prevented FFR from staying the course. In some way I am sure that digesting the real meat of some of the criticism regarding the roadster has helped the evolution of the roadster and the coupe to what they are today. I have no doubt that the conversation here on the 818 has been heard loud and clear by Dave but that once again he will filter the forum 'noise' and cut to the meat of the conversation which from a marketing perspective in my opinion should not be totally ignored. However reacting to it in the near term may not be possible with the development schedule that FFR has. There are things that bother me about all of the FFR offerings but that hasn't stopped me buying their products and the same goes for the 818.

[DrieStone]

Well said. I'm ashamed of some of the personal attacks on the Team. Quite un-called for, you don't like the "look" of something and you call the designers and President of a company all manner of names and make suggestions as to their motive.


Perhaps I missed it, but I don't recall any personal attacks on the team. I know there have been strong words used in regard to the image released by Dave. And Niburu is right, I think this has been so polarizing because so much of us love the idea of the 818, many of us cared very deeply about this project. I can say that I doubt a single one of the users who dislike the design of the car doubt FFR's knowledge or skills. There has never been any doubt that the 818 is going to be a performer. FFR has a track record of excellent products.

I think the closest thing to personal attacks was the dissatisfaction (or perhaps the discontinuity) of comments made by Dave earlier. I think Dave's message http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?6399-Next-body-style&p=62503#post62503 helps in regard to clarity of thought. It sucks that the wind was taken out of so many sails. We all have our own opinions, and we all have our own wants for the 818.

It's good that 818 is that much closer to reality, even if it's not the reality that some of us wanted. FFR will weather this fine, they'll sell a bunch of 818s. Those of us who invested our hearts in the 818, but don't love it now, well there are other options if we really want something. A year from now this will be a tiny blip on the radar.

I think Dave scaling things back and not showing much until SEMA is best. Perhaps those who are dissatisfied will be brought back into the fold when we see the real car.

[Smitty911]

Perhaps I missed it, but I don't recall any personal attacks on the team. I know there have been strong words used in regard to the image released by Dave. SNIP

DrieStone,

I have read several responses where Dave was accused of several supposed breaches of ethics. I won't repost them as I believe they are uncalled for and I won't give any additional credit to the immature responses. Jim was also called out directly in several of the post I've read.

At the end of the day, we were asked for input, it was given, some used, others not.

Running a business is an dynamic daily decision process. Can't fault a successfull man for doing what's best or in this case acheiveable in regards to the body.

If everything was based on looks, I think a high % of us would never date let alone get married. ;)

Smitty

[skullandbones]

Yes, DrieStone, you missed that comment. Smitty911s quote was very accurate. Most, was aimed at Jim (not having any design talent). I'm not sure how they came to that conclusion about someone who is in his position. That person was obviously venting their frustration but that post should have been thought out first.

I once experienced a situation like this. I had a 24 month project that I led. About half way thru the second phase (first phase approved and implemented), someone suggested I communicate to the CEO and seniors about our progress. Does this sound familiar? Anyway, it was a disaster. After that meeting it took 3 months to recover to where we were that day. What should have been done in 6 months was strung out to almost a year. Needless to say, I was not happy. On top of that, I had not trust in the upper management after that. I blamed myself for communicating too much in the middle of an ongoing project.

I think Dave although the CEO still trusted a group of people with privileged information to help communicate the progress of the project. He did not anticipate the reaction by a long shot. I can't blame him for his reaction and if he didn't share a single peice of info from now until SEMA, it would not surprise me. I hope that isn't true. Also, I think Dave is a nice guy in a tough business. If that didn't hurt his feelings, personally, I would be surprised. So, I would like to offer my apology if I said anything hurtful. Dave will probably spend a lot of time doing damage control to get back to the point he and the project was a few days ago. Good luck. I know the launch will be successful. WEK.

[Ray]

Doesn't anyone remember the '33 Hot-rod project and the years of secrecy that surrounded it? All we knew is that there was a new project and it was code named "Larry."

Now, we have the 818. There has been a design contest, we know that it will based on a Subaru donor platform, seen video of the go-cart. All that seems to be happening is that some very vocal people don't have the patience to wait for an extremely successful company with a proven track record of safety and performance, to finalize the design.

In hindsight, it might have been better for FFR to just develop this new project in secret like they did the '33 and just present it when it was done. Or maybe we've just become too impatient as a society to wait. Let Dave and the team at FFR do their work. They have a company to run, phones to answer, orders for the other cars to fill as well as finalize the design of the 818. Then, they have to build it-perfectly- so when it does get introduced at SEMA, to the entire automotive community, it reflects the standards that we have come to expect from FFR.

You wouldn't be all over GM-Ford-Porsche-MB etc. because they were taking too long to release a new model. Give Dave and FFR the time they need to do their job.

Ray

[PhyrraM]

.....You wouldn't be all over GM-Ford-Porsche-MB etc. because they were taking too long to release a new model. Give Dave and FFR the time they need to do their job............

While I agree with all of your other comments, this one is not true. If there is any hint of a new product from a mainsteam manufacture, folks want it - and now. And, as seen here, folks are also tearing it down before it's even released. For the Subaru community, the lead up to the BRZ was comical how polarized folks were over something they really knew nothing about.

[Silvertop]

It seems that a few very vocal detractors have now negatively affected the communication channels for the masses, and that is truly a shame. As I look back through some of the forum postings of the past week, there are actually more that are offering positive input and approval as opposed to a small minority that voiced pointed objections. Constructive criticism is one thing, but the tone of some of the posts has been disgraceful. It is unfortunate for the supporters that no more information will be shared until SEMA, but I understand this decision..............

Amen, Bullet306. There's no excuse for some of the abrasive negativity and outright nastiness that has been demonstrated by some forum contributors. It occurs to me that we have already been given far more input into this project than we have any right to expect. Where do we get off throwing rocks the way some of us have done?

I'm disappointed that Dave Smith has chosen to take the project dark again, pending the unveiling at the SEMA show. I would have dearly loved to see some more angles and perspectives of the 818R, and would have especially wanted to see a rendering or two of the street roadster version. I do, however, understand the decision. We'll just have to wait. Too bad.

[Hankl]

I for one am not disappointed that Dave has taken the project "Dark" again. The 818 forum is filled with Ego's, many who believe that their way is the only way, and your parentage should be questioned if you don't agree. Many of these people don't live in the real world of engineering and bringing a project to fruition. There are so many decisions that need to be made on a daily basis when constructing a project like this, that the untrained person can not begin to understand, or realize the scope of the all that has to be decided, and what compromises have to be made to complete the project.

Hank :cool:

[Kalstar]

SEMA is only 5 months away. I will miss coming here to see updates., but Dave is a smart man, he will figure out what's best moving forward. Still in 100%.

One more point, I posted the image on another forum I frequent, i asked opinions in a very neutral light, of the 12 post over the past two days all 12 have been positive.

[Xusia]

Designing in secrecy is definitely one way to go. The potential downside is missed opportunities (ideas, feedback, etc.). The advantage is that it's a bit easier to manage.

Engaging a "community" (any community from a small group the general public) is another way to go. In my opinion, this is the harder because it's more difficult to manage. Success requires a commitment with a well thought out plan, as well as careful execution with a concerted effort. Engagements must be planned, routine, and consistent (methods, people, etc.). Expectations must be set AND managed - repeatedly (once is never sufficient; constant reminders are often the norm). Communications must be carefully considered and clear; not only what is said, but also how it is said. It's a difficult job that in most cases could use at least a part-time person dedicated to it (when I've been involved it's been multiple full-time, dedicated people). Given the amount of work, it should come as no surprise that secrecy is often opted for.

Once you have a reputation built up, however, secrecy can work very well to a company's advantage. For good examples, look no further than Apple and Blizzard.

[leetfade]

That's why major public facing companies have PR people. It's a rough job and excessive for a business owner to do themselves...

It's too bad a handful had to ruin it for the masses... If you don't like the rendering or anything else, ask questions (there are generally reasons things get done the way they are), make CONSTRUCTIVE comments / suggestions, accept that you don't get the final decision, or just leave. Most feel they need to be the only one that matters and that just can't be the case.

[PhyrraM]

.... Most feel they need to be the only one that matters and that just can't be the case.

Yeah, I see that too much these days. It's totally rampant on Subaru boards and I think that's what we got transferred here.

[Mechie3]

There was a certain gentleman on NASIOC that went on page long rants about how he was upset the BRZ was not what he wanted and he was mad at Subaru for not making it for him. That was amazingly annoying. He could only see his needs and his wants, not the needs of a business and the needs of a large demographic.

[PhyrraM]

There was a certain gentleman on NASIOC that went on page long rants about how he was upset the BRZ was not what he wanted and he was mad at Subaru for not making it for him. That was amazingly annoying. He could only see his needs and his wants, not the needs of a business and the needs of a large demographic.

ROFL. Hip2bSquare. New SVX. ROFL.

[leetfade]

Or the profits that Subaru will make on that car, regardless of his interpretation of it.

No business owner wants to upset a potential customer but, at the end of the day, it's about what is right for the business and will attract the most customers.

[D2W]

In my opinion there are two ways to run a product development cycle. You keep everything under wraps until the project is done, and release it to the public and hope the decisions you made were the correct ones with no one to blame but yourself if it turns out to be less than successful. The second way is to be transparent. Letting potential customers see your progress and what you have planned. You get a lot of interest before release but less of a surprise at release. People who are interested are going to make suggestions, its human nature, but its your job to filter the info and use as much or as little as needed. Still at the end of the project you made the decisions that have to be lived with.

I think Dave fell into the trap of somewhere in between these two. He released enough information to get us too debate feverishly over the possible outcome, but not enough to know what was really going on. So when we did find out, and it was not what we were expecting, we became extremely disappointed. A let down if you will. Dave wrote an excellent response yesterday giving some explanation as to why things turned out the way they did. If he had done it 6-8 months ago, when he found out that Xabiers's or Rodneys designs could not be done and why, some may have been let down but not to the degree they were now. And those of us who love this project could have gotten on board with the development of Jim's design, giving input, helping out when possible because I believe most if not all of the people who frequent here want to see FFR succeed.

The last thing I want to say is I think some people have the wrong idea about crowd-sourcing. When you're developing a product and ask a group for advice, you have to be smart enough take the good and throw away the bad. A product should never be designed by a group, only an individual. But the individual can always profit by the wisdom of the group.