Next body style?

[BipDBo]

Alright, so there's been a lot of negative feedback on the final design for the 818R. I have a proposal that may renew excitement for some. What if Dave committed to making the next body style closely based on a contest entry?

We've still got a possible coupe and targa. Perhaps Dave would consider usin Jim's car only for the track version, leaving the roadster open to a different design. I think that the high mpg is out for this because it should be designed by some university with the resources to design for minimal drag.

Dave really has no obligation to the contestants to use a contest design, just to award prizes to the winners. His real obligation is to future customers. If you were once genuinely able and interested in being an 818 kit buyer, but are now saying that you are "out," would such a commitment renew your interest? Outside of the current forum community, could a true crowd sourced design generate more press and therefore more customers?

If such a commitment were made, what is the best candidate?
* Nouphone?
* Xabier?
* Rodney?
* Vman?
* Whetstone?
* Some other long forgotten entry?

Try to judge not just on looks but also on how functional and budget-buildable a design may be and what may need to be changed to bring it to production.

For refresher, where is a link to the entries:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160

[j32driver]

The only thing that was a huge miss for me on the 818R was the nose. Rejigger the nose on this thing, and it could be a thing of beauty!

Not only would I be excited about a contest entry body, I would happily pay a premium for Rodney's design. It is simply a stunning looking concept, and it would drop jaws once on the road.

[Flamshackle]

I would say rodneys or vmans but xabiers would make me happy also...

[Dave Smith]

No further communications and certainly NO COMMITMENTS of any type will be made concerning ANY body styles.

[Gary in NJ]

It doesn't matter what we think. We had our chance for input and now the team is designing. We will get what they want to sell, so don't fall in love with something that wont be made.

[Xusia]

*sigh*

[Dave Smith]

It matters TREMENDOUSLY what you think. I just don't want folks spending time working on a car that cannot physically be made. The design contest concluded a year ago. Falling in love with CAD files and drawings is meaningless. We need to show the world our car/(s) and allow people to have a valid opinion of a real thing rather than flog ourselves repeatedly over designs that may or may not be manufacturable or realistic.

[GUNS]

It matters TREMENDOUSLY what you think. I just don't want folks spending time working on a car that cannot physically be made. The design contest concluded a year ago. Falling in love with CAD files and drawings is meaningless. We need to show the world our car/(s) and allow people to have a valid opinion of a real thing rather than flog ourselves repeatedly over designs that may or may not be manufacturable or realistic.

Dave, this comment is about a year too late. If this was your intention all along, then why not just say so? I think this all could have been avoided if you had just been upfront with us. Instead you made use believe that the other designs were possibilities. You said that Jim's design was dead, what did you expect us to think when you released what is presumably the close to final version of the car?

[j32driver]

It matters TREMENDOUSLY what you think.

Someone else said it... I'll repeat it. Dave, THANK YOU for taking an active part in the web community. It is a pleasure to see this level of involvement from the "Head Shed" of a company. Whether it is an 818 or a Roadster... someday soon I WILL be your customer!

[Xusia]

Dave may have a thick skin, but I think it's time for the bashing to stop. The situation is what it is. Let's move on...

[Xusia]

Someone else said it... I'll repeat it. Dave, THANK YOU for taking an active part in the web community. It is a pleasure to see this level of involvement from the "Head Shed" of a company. Whether it is an 818 or a Roadster... someday soon I WILL be your customer!

+1000

[Vman7]

Time to let this body style thing go and let Dave, Jim & FFR do what they do best and get the 818 out there. Allow time for them to develop, refine etc. after the car has been launched, just like they have done with all their other designs.

I figure depending on how well the 818 is recieved by the public, by sales, performance, styling etc., only then can FFR move on to refining the car, not only in body style, but also performance. This will take time, and depending on how things go FFR will make their own decision on how to move forward with the 818.

Like I said in the other thread. Be Patient and give FFR some time! Like a good wine, it takes time. Rome wasn't built in day.

Again, let Dave, Jim and the FFR team do their job :)

David

[RM1SepEx]

It's been said over and over that the design had to be MFGable to get a no paint finish and that styling clues from the designs would be used

Thanks for letting us participate Dave and I fully agree with your position. This forum just thrashes around brutallly adding no value. The design looks great and meets the goals of the design. I'm sure that the follow up body styles will also forward the 818 concept.

I can't wait to build my Roadster version.

[Flamshackle]

Dave, this comment is about a year too late. If this was your intention all along, then why not just say so? I think this all could have been avoided if you had just been upfront with us. Instead you made use believe that the other designs were possibilities. You said that Jim's design was dead, what did you expect us to think when you released what is presumably the close to final version of the car?

Like I have stated. if Dave is left wondering where all the angst came from look no further than the above post. Miscommunication and miss matched expectations.

We must move on quickly past this issue and remember who is developing this car for sale... FFR is liable for all the costs, success/failure ect... so they can't really afford to be swayed much by a a group of faceless online contributors.

They needed to trust their knowledge and expertise in this development.

Miscommunication is the only real issue here.

[D2W]

Dave, this comment is about a year too late. If this was your intention all along, then why not just say so? I think this all could have been avoided if you had just been upfront with us. Instead you made use believe that the other designs were possibilities. You said that Jim's design was dead, what did you expect us to think when you released what is presumably the close to final version of the car?

Yeah, I've got to agree. Dave could have been upfront with his intentions to use the in-house design all along. Obviously the design competition was a way to get media exposure and meant little to the design of the car. Dave has taken multiple jabs at his brother's attempts at "open" sourcing and now he appears to have crapped in his own flat hat. I guess Jim was right with the "I told you so", but then again he probably knew what was going on.

[Xusia]

I guess Jim was right with the "I told you so", but then again he probably knew what was going on.

*IF* that's true, it's all of us on the forum that have made it so...

[Rockraven]

*sigh*

+1.

[FFR-ADV]

No further communications and certainly NO COMMITMENTS of any type will be made concerning ANY body styles.

"It matters TREMENDOUSLY what you think. I just don't want folks spending time working on a car that cannot physically be made. The design contest concluded a year ago. Falling in love with CAD files and drawings is meaningless. We need to show the world our car/(s) and allow people to have a valid opinion of a real thing rather than flog ourselves repeatedly over designs that may or may not be manufacturable or realistic. "

Hi Dave,

Thank you for including us in the design as much as you have. I personally look forward to seeing this design mature, go thru beta builds and finally release for us (me) to purchase. You never could or will please everyone because there are so many sub-communities with different objectives, resources, skills, tastes... as was demonstrated by the many wonderful designs submitted, excepting a recent coupe design entry. You had to choose a direction and go, otherwise all we would ever have is pretty pictures and dreams.

Are there any specific areas we can explore in the 818 design trade space and focus on as a community which will be beneficial (helpful help as apposed to the other kind of help) to the FFR staff design team? If so would you please conside starting these threads yourself and also telling in the kickoff post when the thread will end and be locked (subject to change)?

Cheers!

[Dave Smith]

“Crapped in my own flat hat? Apologize?! Not being upfront with us? “

I asked a question of track or street car launch at SEMA. I posted a picture and some rough testing videos… didn’t see how this can be elevated to the level of Enron.

I loved Xabiers 818R concept the moment I saw it and said so on many occasions. I never said I would build it. There’s no way I could have. But we actually invested a lot in it with the hopes that we might. Truth is that the design does not work the way it was drawn and after A LOT of work and a lot of money (we paid Rhode Island School of Design more than $8,000 to make the model!), it wasn’t selected for the track-version or roadster. No matter how cool the drawing looked, it didn’t work against the critical design goals, simple as that (the rejected silver car had 100% Xabiers nose design). Just a truth of scale, despite looking cool on the red drawing. Still though, that drawing and submission, among many ideas, led us along a great path. To say the team isn’t listening is only for lack of being part of the actual team in house here.

I absolutely LOVE Rodney’s design and planned on using it (or a version of it since a lot can change when drawing becomes real)… I even spoke to him and Jesper here at FFR about the CAD readiness of the design and required changes. But that car would have to be AFTER we launched the roadster (which was said repeatedly), IF we could integrate it (I think I said something about multiple bodies!). BUT it’s a hard top design and making the car a roadster isn’t as easy as making a drawing. You can photoshop a drawing, make it a coupe, a roadster, and back again, but making a car is not the same thing and a lot of designers have no clue about the physical challenges of that change and the realities and limitations of manufacturing. How important is a no paint body or export considerations? etc… The balance is the trick and if you’re waiting for FFR to sell a car exactly as it was drawn, it will never happen because it’s a drawing and not a car.

I said, as Jim said, and as stated on our website, and in our early video discussion of the car, we would lead with a roadster. The Coupe couldn’t meet the launch target of a $9,990 kit… that really required a simple roadster. A convertible top sure, but a full-on Coupe with power windows and OEM level HVAC? Not possible at $9,990. A removable hardtop, a full-on Coupe with power windows, etc… All things possible and likely but not first… the success of design one drives (and funds!) the other models. And this is no guarantee. What if a Truck project looks more profitable and timely than 818 model #2, shouldn’t I have the right (fiduciary responsibility) to change course? Sure, and I will if that’s the truth. That’s also why the FIA keeps getting delayed. It’s also one of the many reasons we’ve grown as a company when others have failed.

From our website:
“The design goal behind this car is very straightforward, the car must be simple, lightweight, affordable, and easy to build in countries around the world. The emphasis will be on handling and driving fun rather than on the 200 mph exotic, although the capable chassis should provide an excellent platform for more competition focused builds and fuel-efficient commuters. The majority of the cars we sell are street cars and this will not be an exception, so full lighting, covered wheels, and safety items will all be incorporated. To keep things simple, this will be an elemental performance based street car first but with a roll bar/structure sufficient for track days. The design competition gave us great ideas and direction for initial roadster body. The success of this 818 project depends tremendously on the full integration of CAD technology, the application of our accumulated street and track experience, and the input of our talented and passionate customer base. It is our largest challenge to date and yet, I am confident we will deliver on the lofty goals.”

I didn’t mislead anyone regarding the design of the body/(s). Please consider that we paid out over $10,000 in prize money, spent another $14,000 on scale models and CAD work of ALL the designs… at a time when I wasn’t collecting a paycheck! That’s how important I thought it was! Much more than some marketing smoke and mirrors! We could’ve gotten input for free but chose to engage our community in a serious (funded) way because we knew it would generate legitimate ideas and take us in a path we might not have gone. The design competition was a critical part of a vibrant and well considered R&D effort, but it was never a promise to make anything… It couldn’t have ever been. The 818 project has been conducted in a very public manner (OVER the objections of many of the team here I might add), and in the end, the design contest was just that... a design contest, and a start. In the end we have to build the car/(s) that we deem best meets the design goals. I have made it clear that my plans for the car involved multiple purposes and multiple bodies, and now with a single glimpse of one rendering the entire world falls apart? This is unreasonable. I would never have made any commitments to any specific design (for or against) in the midst of the process beyond the clear design goals.

Anyone who has ever worked with, known, or visited our company knows that this is a great group of honest, dedicated, TALENTED and hardworking people. Best I’ve ever worked with.

I believe this project has benefitted greatly from feedback over the past year (the design contest is only part of the great technical contributions and ideas generated), but I also believe it is now suffering from the same. I should not have released the 818R photo or in-process testing videos as this has caused serious interruption to the project. I could have answered my own question about SEMA and track vs. street car myself without endangering the process. My mistake and I take the blame for that one. Simply put, we’re not ready to manage communications at this stage and we’re very confident that the project is going in the right direction (we’re all practically giddy with the performance envelope and direction of the car) and perhaps the best path forward is to allow people to evaluate the car/(s) that we end up designing and building in person and in real space and not waste time along the way.

In the end, capitalism will have its beautiful unemotional way with us. If what we design and build is something that people want to hand over hard earned money for, then we will continue to succeed as a company and build our place in automotive history (yes THAT is the goal!). Factory Five Racing is on a long term mission to become one of the great icons of the automotive landscape and we chose to do it from the grassroots level up. A tough job that few are interested in! Our club and our path will be laid by the shared and exceptional experiences of our customers and community and GREAT CARS. Our legend will be told as a result of how well we serve our community and how well our products become part of life stories, not how happy we can make someone with a rendering that we’ve seen change when put to full-size form.

To me, the mean sprited talk and aggressive tones were very unexpected. I suppose I should have kept the work closer to my chest or managed expectations better, understanding there was a lot of emotion connected to some of these designs. Again, my fault, but the communication was not at all, in any way, similar to the FFR community I’ve grown accustomed to. I don’t know what to fully attribute this to, but it only matters as long as it is allowed to damage the project. There aren’t sales to lose at this point because unlike others, we don’t take orders for cars that aren’t invented, tested, or ready for sale yet. There’s no corporate deceit, no hidden agenda, and no reason for the acrimony… it’s just a picture of a cool car, some sneak peek videos, all on a path towards development and testing of a great car that will be unveiled in full at SEMA. These were shared at your request, for fun and to generate excitement about an impending new product release in a way few companies ever do (now we know why!).

To say things like "Jim may be a hard worker and nice guy but he is to car designing what Stevie Wonder is to brain surgery" , or to suggest this was simply some “Marketing ploy”… that is just mean and completely discounts everything we’ve done, everything we’ve invested in, and what we’ve built over the last 17 years, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, the manner in which we’ve so earnestly and sincerely built this company.

Don’t hold your breath for an apology unless it’s me apologizing to the team here. I like what we are doing and love the path we’re on. I’ve mismanaged this small effort but I’m a quick study! I’m super proud of the team here and am anxious to show the world what we are capable of… only, perhaps now in finished form rather than in process!

Lastly, let me rip the band-aid off right now and say that I will be scaling back Open House 818 news and there will be just a tad more shown than what was shared to date on the 818. No pictures or CAD renderings of the street body no matter what. We may have a brief video update and start the engine for guys to get an idea of the sound, but nothing more. We will focus on our customers, on having a great time, and on showing people the many changes to the company we’ve made recently.

Thanks for reading this and to all of those who contributed to the 818 project in any way, THANKS!

[formfollowsfunction]

thanks for the updates we have gotten, love the concept and the car, can't wait to be a customer!

[FFR-ADV]

Thank you Dave, Jim and your team!

[j32driver]

Bring on SEMA 2012!

[spaceywilly]

Thanks Dave. I'm confident that the 818 will end up being a great car, and I think you should build it the way you want it and ignore what people here are saying. Your vision is what has brought the company thus far, and to sway from that because of the feedback on this forum would be a mistake. That being said, I think you should reconsider changing your plans for the open house. I think that once people see the roadster version, and more importantly see it in more detail than a single render, they will have a better feeling of what it really looks like and come around to the design. Just my .02, I'll be going either way for the free food :)

[GUNS]

Thank you for your well written response Dave. I know none of use really deserve an explanation on why you chose the path that you did, but it really does help understanding the challenges that you and your team face.

I know that you are frustrated with the response this last week, but look at it in a positive light, you have a whole community that is very passionate about this project and want to see it succeed as much as you do. There have been some extremely inappropriate responses, but beyond that I think most of it can be taken as constructive criticism.

I want to thank you again for your dedication and involvement with the community. I don't blame you for lowering the degree of this involvement from here on out, but it's been an interesting experience for sure. I'm still excited and can't wait for the official unveiling in SEMA. Good luck and I'll still check back just in case of updates :).

[shim2]

Thanks for the updates you did show us and the picture of the body. I'm 100% certain you will build an amazing car and I can not wait to be a customer. I too think you should reconsider your plans for the open house based on the negativity here. This seems to be an isolated incident, meaning only people on this forum showed negativity about it. Regardless of your decision I'll still be here waiting patiently until SEMA and then production.

[PhyrraM]

Bummer. I stayed away from styling talk just to keep the technical info flowing. Didn't work...Double bummer.

[Doc_FFR]

Keep up the good work Dave.

[RM1SepEx]

Dave,

Thanks for the updates that you did give us. I for one, am as disappointed as you are that the tone of the forum got so negative. Questioning your motives is outrageous. Many seem to have lost the basic understanding of the project's design goals and constraints that you just reiterated.

I was hoping for more shots of the roadster at the open house on Saturday. I'll just have to keep working on prepping my donor and preparing to assemble what I'm sure will be an awesome car, no matter what design compromises are driven by the project's overall goals as they align very well with my goals for the car. I'll be so pleased to have an open roadster with a top with zipper windows for emergency situations.

After visiting with you a couple times I'm positive that your team will deliver an exceptional product. I have no questions as to the desire of your company to provide a world class product

Dan

[AJ Roadster NJ]

I made the following post about six months ago, on January 19th of this year, during one of the many painfully protracted debates on the 818 design. From the evidence I see in this and other threads, I am saddened and disappointed to see that I may have been right. I would really, really, REALLY like to have been wrong.

_____


Reminder to self; once I get my own car company launched, DO NOT open up design questions to the general public.

I cannot imagine what it is like to be Dave right now. No matter what he does, he is going to piss off about 70% or so of the crowd, many of whom -- or perhaps most of whom -- seem to think they have the "right" answer. I have quietly read these various 818 posts for months, and there seems to be an general feeling that if one person argues his case long enough and makes the case strongly enough, they will "win" the discussion. I just don't see how that can happen, nor do I see how the process will create the optimal offering from FFR.

Call me crazy, but I am concerned for FFR that the 818 may simply not sell as well as should be expected, because such a large component of the potential customer base has decided so completely, and in such detail, exactly what they want out of this car. Pleasing the majority is going to be impossible. Pleasing 30% of the crowd would, IMHO, be a huge success at this point. Pleasing 15% of the crowd is what I see coming.

Answer? Keep an open mind. The design competition component is long completed now. Given the offerings that FFR has come up with over the years, we have good reason to wait patiently and evaluate the 818 car, when it comes out, objectively. Those guys are VERY good at what they do. I have faith.

[Flamshackle]

Dave thanks for the detailed information you just gave us and insights into the hows and whys.

HANGING OUT FOR SEMA NOW ;)

I have my meth injected big turb subaru race car here ready for stripping and strapping the go fast bits to the 818 body :~)

[Flamshackle]

Pleasing 30% of the crowd would, IMHO, be a huge success at this point. Pleasing 15% of the crowd is what I see coming.


very insightful post except very pessimistic...

There still is a clear majority that think the car looks good and if you read the posts MOST of the serious builders are forging ahead with plans.

[Accro]

Dave,

I just wanted to say you and your team are doing a fantastic job.

I'm a 22 yr old kid who's considering doing this project over the next couple years, finances willing. I'll admit my dream car is an Elise/Exige, but honestly, that's far from a reality for me. You guys are giving me a chance to improve my technical skills, and get into a car that might exceed the performance of a Lotus. All for half the price. That's part of what makes your company so unique. I just want you to know, the only reason my dream car ISN'T the 818 is the nose. I know that might sting to hear, but please, take it as a compliment. The only reason I would choose a $50K, world renowned sports car, made by a legendary F1 manufacturer over your car is cause I think it's a tad prettier.

I know people on here are being harsh, but please take heart that it's only the aesthetics they're being harsh about. Everyone is dying to know numbers and details, so please, don't cut us off!! I think the general consensus is that the headlights and grill could use some work. Maybe the front overhang, but I realize that's a fair bit harder to change. Random suggestion, and I have no idea how feasible this is, but take 1 day, get your designers to work with the picture you have given us, and change nothing but the grill, and show those too us. I bet you'd be surprised at how quickly people would fall in love with one or 2 minor tweaks.

I'm currently a student at a racing school, where we regularly drive 1000lb, 170hp formula cars. Realizing I could get near the same power to weight ratio in a street car is blowing my mind, and I know it'll blow away anyone who drives it. The handling won't be too far behind either, I feel (we drive on 195 width RE-11s!!). I hope you realize that I'm exceedingly excited for this, I might just have to take a hacksaw to a few small pieces of bodywork to suite my tastes.

Congratulations on near perfection.
Eric

[flytosail]

As part of the future 15%, seeing something in this price range that can do what it will do inspires me to be just a bit more relaxed on when the final product out.

As for trashing the whole car because the "lights look a bit weird" to some here, I bet you can find a fault with any car made. Maybe FFr will have a chasis only option and you can come up with something that works for you.

Dave, don't give up on that 15%.

[bobzdar]

“Crapped in my own flat hat? Apologize?! Not being upfront with us? “

I asked a question of track or street car launch at SEMA. I posted a picture and some rough testing videos… didn’t see how this can be elevated to the level of Enron.

I loved Xabiers 818R concept the moment I saw it and said so on many occasions. I never said I would build it. There’s no way I could have. But we actually invested a lot in it with the hopes that we might. Truth is that the design does not work the way it was drawn and after A LOT of work and a lot of money (we paid Rhode Island School of Design more than $8,000 to make the model!), it wasn’t selected for the track-version or roadster. No matter how cool the drawing looked, it didn’t work against the critical design goals, simple as that (the rejected silver car had 100% Xabiers nose design). Just a truth of scale, despite looking cool on the red drawing. Still though, that drawing and submission, among many ideas, led us along a great path. To say the team isn’t listening is only for lack of being part of the actual team in house here.

I absolutely LOVE Rodney’s design and planned on using it (or a version of it since a lot can change when drawing becomes real)… I even spoke to him and Jesper here at FFR about the CAD readiness of the design and required changes. But that car would have to be AFTER we launched the roadster (which was said repeatedly), IF we could integrate it (I think I said something about multiple bodies!). BUT it’s a hard top design and making the car a roadster isn’t as easy as making a drawing. You can photoshop a drawing, make it a coupe, a roadster, and back again, but making a car is not the same thing and a lot of designers have no clue about the physical challenges of that change and the realities and limitations of manufacturing. How important is a no paint body or export considerations? etc… The balance is the trick and if you’re waiting for FFR to sell a car exactly as it was drawn, it will never happen because it’s a drawing and not a car.

I said, as Jim said, and as stated on our website, and in our early video discussion of the car, we would lead with a roadster. The Coupe couldn’t meet the launch target of a $9,990 kit… that really required a simple roadster. A convertible top sure, but a full-on Coupe with power windows and OEM level HVAC? Not possible at $9,990. A removable hardtop, a full-on Coupe with power windows, etc… All things possible and likely but not first… the success of design one drives (and funds!) the other models. And this is no guarantee. What if a Truck project looks more profitable and timely than 818 model #2, shouldn’t I have the right (fiduciary responsibility) to change course? Sure, and I will if that’s the truth. That’s also why the FIA keeps getting delayed. It’s also one of the many reasons we’ve grown as a company when others have failed.

From our website:
“The design goal behind this car is very straightforward, the car must be simple, lightweight, affordable, and easy to build in countries around the world. The emphasis will be on handling and driving fun rather than on the 200 mph exotic, although the capable chassis should provide an excellent platform for more competition focused builds and fuel-efficient commuters. The majority of the cars we sell are street cars and this will not be an exception, so full lighting, covered wheels, and safety items will all be incorporated. To keep things simple, this will be an elemental performance based street car first but with a roll bar/structure sufficient for track days. The design competition gave us great ideas and direction for initial roadster body. The success of this 818 project depends tremendously on the full integration of CAD technology, the application of our accumulated street and track experience, and the input of our talented and passionate customer base. It is our largest challenge to date and yet, I am confident we will deliver on the lofty goals.”

I didn’t mislead anyone regarding the design of the body/(s). Please consider that we paid out over $10,000 in prize money, spent another $14,000 on scale models and CAD work of ALL the designs… at a time when I wasn’t collecting a paycheck! That’s how important I thought it was! Much more than some marketing smoke and mirrors! We could’ve gotten input for free but chose to engage our community in a serious (funded) way because we knew it would generate legitimate ideas and take us in a path we might not have gone. The design competition was a critical part of a vibrant and well considered R&D effort, but it was never a promise to make anything… It couldn’t have ever been. The 818 project has been conducted in a very public manner (OVER the objections of many of the team here I might add), and in the end, the design contest was just that... a design contest, and a start. In the end we have to build the car/(s) that we deem best meets the design goals. I have made it clear that my plans for the car involved multiple purposes and multiple bodies, and now with a single glimpse of one rendering the entire world falls apart? This is unreasonable. I would never have made any commitments to any specific design (for or against) in the midst of the process beyond the clear design goals.

Anyone who has ever worked with, known, or visited our company knows that this is a great group of honest, dedicated, TALENTED and hardworking people. Best I’ve ever worked with.

I believe this project has benefitted greatly from feedback over the past year (the design contest is only part of the great technical contributions and ideas generated), but I also believe it is now suffering from the same. I should not have released the 818R photo or in-process testing videos as this has caused serious interruption to the project. I could have answered my own question about SEMA and track vs. street car myself without endangering the process. My mistake and I take the blame for that one. Simply put, we’re not ready to manage communications at this stage and we’re very confident that the project is going in the right direction (we’re all practically giddy with the performance envelope and direction of the car) and perhaps the best path forward is to allow people to evaluate the car/(s) that we end up designing and building in person and in real space and not waste time along the way.

In the end, capitalism will have its beautiful unemotional way with us. If what we design and build is something that people want to hand over hard earned money for, then we will continue to succeed as a company and build our place in automotive history (yes THAT is the goal!). Factory Five Racing is on a long term mission to become one of the great icons of the automotive landscape and we chose to do it from the grassroots level up. A tough job that few are interested in! Our club and our path will be laid by the shared and exceptional experiences of our customers and community and GREAT CARS. Our legend will be told as a result of how well we serve our community and how well our products become part of life stories, not how happy we can make someone with a rendering that we’ve seen change when put to full-size form.
.......


Dave, thanks for the explanation. I think if the first couple of paragraphs came out with the render, you'd have little to no blowback as it lets everyone know how you ended up on the well justified path you've taken.

I will say, I think going silent is a horrible idea as the silence is what precipitated a lot of the negativity. If you're confident in the design, show us more angles, show us the street version and help us see what you see.

[GUNS]

^ Agree 100% with everything you said bozdar

[Mechie3]

You said an OEM level HVAC isn't possible. How much is possible? Heat only? Heat is more important than AC for me.

[NonProfit]

Dave, thanks a lot for post #19. It helps me understand things much better.

Ultimately whenever you've got a lot of people truly engaged, emotions can run high. Sometimes it's not fun. But companies don't go bankrupt because people hate them, they go bust because people don't care about them. I'm kinda new around here, but posts like this make me respect you and your company more. Staying quiet wouldn't have. Perhaps things should have been played a little closer to the vest...I don't know...but you've got an amazing community here. We won't ever all agree, but please stay engaged. Regular updates. Long-term plans. Answering questions, casting vision. Maybe that should be you, maybe it's a member of your staff. But stay engaged! You've got the best selling replica in the industry and your original design was just favorably compared to a McLaren! The major auto manufactures can't pull that off, but you did. I know what I want my next car to be. In part for what it is and in part for who you are.

[818]

I don't blame Dave one bit for not posting a word on here until it's for sale. I know if I was a member of their team and saw the immature responses, I'd be a tad demotivated as well.

C'Mon guys, some of you have indicated you don't want the car based on a rendering. Yet most of you still stay here to complain. What gives? More importantly, nobody asked for our opinions on it anyway, the question asked was simply about which model to bring to SEMA. As Dave pointed out, the design contest is over. I find it saddening how these forums bring out the worst in people. Not FFR's forums in particular, I'm talking all forums. Everybody's an armchair engineer, marketing expert, sales superstar, production designer and powertrain engineer all rolled into one.

Dave, FFR, et. al., I appreciate all the hard work you've done. I also have a decent idea of just how much you've done. Studied MechEng for 3 years before I switched degrees. Amazing how real photoshop-edited photos look, and how the designers of them are "saints" yet the engineer that has to deal with nasty laws of physics, thermodynamics and metallurgy are made into "sinners" because they do things like... I don't know, making sure the engine fits in the body or (gasp!) use an OEM DOT/ECE approved headlight to knock a thousand dollars off the price of each car due to amortizing the cost of designing / DOT testing a "new" one...

[Smitty911]

Dave,

First off, thank you for allowing input into your companies future product launch. I believe I'll be taking the existing car as designed.

For all those not satisfied, frustrated or otherwise "out", please feel free to come up with $3 to $4,000,000.00 in capital to design, manufacture, market, source parts, employees, vendors, etc. etc. so you can be told "This line doesn't look right, or can we move this bump over, or can I have "X".

A car is a compromise of many design goals, you either accept the whole as offered, or start your own car company. We are not, nor should we be privy to each and every design or decision. You were asked for input, it was reviewed, weighed and either incorporated or not for any number of reason. Live with it or move on.

Here's a match, start the flames.

Smitty

[Twinspool]

This car is going to be the high-water mark for affordable performance for the next decade at a minimum. How anyone can be critical of the opportunity to get their greazy mitts on this class of automobile is amazing to me.

I'm disappointed that Dave has to clam up again, but completely understand why. I was enjoying the updates and info.

Thanks FFR, I wish vast success on you all!

[0100]

Well I guess I am done checking in on this forum till SEMA.

[Duratec7]

Dave,

Thanks for the very clear and level headed response! Your passion for your business is obvious, and I'm sorry to hear that you feel you need to scale back the release of information at the open house and here on the forum to protect your team. You set some very lofty goals, and seem well on target to make and even surpass them, congratulations! I hope as the negativity frenzy on the forum dies off a bit you can re-consider and keep us in the loop and not just go dark until the SEMA.

Keep up the great work!

[BipDBo]

It was not fair of me to suggest that Dave make any commitments. He has much more to think about than placating the design forum. As Dave points out, there's also no point in it because many designs just would not work. It's a small possibility that one of the designs from the competition will get used one day, so let's leave it there.

Truth be told, I'm not at all surprised about the responses. I don't agree with all of the negative vibes out there, but I understand where they are coming from. Everyone has their favorite design, and their idea about what it should look like, and most would not be happy any other way. I had posted recommendations to Dave not to release any renderings, but rather to wait until the curtain could be drawn on the finished car. Now, I'm glad, though that Dave did release the pictures. Now that everyone is venting their frustrations, the 818 will hopefully be able to have its day in the spotlight at SEMA without the hecklers shouting from the back.

Forum members: Go ahead and vent now, but PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE people, don't take it to the SEMA release. Dave and the FFR team has worked too hard, and this car is too cool to have its day in the sun tainted. Let the populous form its own opinion without your help.

The FFR team has listened to our input involved us in the process. They based the design on one of the crowd favorites (Xabier) and then made more improvements based on comments. I have always wanted to build my own car, but it has always been out of my reach until the 818. I've always wanted to be involved in designing something like this, and Dave gave the opportunity. It's been a lot of fun, and I appreciate it.

Dave, please take these recommendations:
* Stop focusing on the negative feedback. There is plenty of positive feedback, but it seems like you are only reacting to the negative comments. I was one of the first to respond. On first impression, I said it was awesome, and still think so. There are going to be more nay sayers from this forum than the general population because of the history of involvement. This design cannot and doesn't need to be loved by every one to be a success. The 818 will attract a lot of customers who otherwise never would have considered a kit car. If 5% of people who know how to turn a wrench see this car and fall in love with it, your order book will be full.
* Don't let this affect your progress. You have made your decisions. Some people don't like it. Let them deal with it over in the corner. Other people love it. The 818 will sell when it is released.
* There is some constructive feedback on the forum. While there is still time to implement changes, it couldn't hurt to consider the constructive criticism. Granted, it may be difficult to wade through the rubbish to find it.

[wallace18]

I totally understand how you feel Dave. I felt privileged to hear updates. I did not like the negative feedback from the 20% ers. Thanks for all you have done. I am ready with my donor. Hope to see you in person in 2013 to pick up my 818 kit. Best of luck.

[Niburu]

You said an OEM level HVAC isn't possible. How much is possible? Heat only? Heat is more important than AC for me.

it's entirely possible, just not in a sub $10K kit
heat should be fairly easy, especially if you have a donor car - you'll have a fan with controls and a heater core at your disposal

[Oppenheimer]

If the design of 818 body #1 is going to stop you from placing an order, than your best course is to find any and every way to support the car, so that it will be a tremendous success, so that there will be $ available, and incentive for even more sales, for FFR to build other body designs. Not to mention if the car is a huge success, other vendors will likely appear to build other custom body designs.

The priviledge of being part of the community and to have had a voice to this point comes with responsibility. We all need to be champions for the 818 cause. That is how you are going to get other body design choices.

[Xusia]

Dave, thank you for providing some insight and addressing this [IMHO] blown out of proportion issue. That was both generous and kind. You continue to impress me and I can't wait to be a customer (It's been 16 years coming!).


Dave, thanks for the explanation. I think if the first couple of paragraphs came out with the render, you'd have little to no blowback as it lets everyone know how you ended up on the well justified path you've taken.

I will say, I think going silent is a horrible idea as the silence is what precipitated a lot of the negativity. If you're confident in the design, show us more angles, show us the street version and help us see what you see.

Well said. I fear Dave's mind is made, but just in case I'm indicating my support!

[Rockraven]

I hope that Dave's frustration is really in response to the insults from the 3 or 4 individuals that effectively shut down the flow of information for the rest of us, and that he's not mad at the forum as a whole. According to the poll set up to gauge reaction to the body design, more than 75% at least like it and would happily buy it. I'm willing to bet that not many production car manufacturers have had such a positive reaction to a newly introduced model, and many more would LOVE to have a better than 75% favorable response. Dave, Jim and the rest of the FF team should feel good about what they've done, and I ask them please don't shut us out of the 818 development.

[DaJudge]

I hope that Dave's frustration is really in response to the insults from the 3 or 4 individuals that effectively shut down the flow of information for the rest of us, and that he's not mad at the forum as a whole. According to the poll set up to gauge reaction to the body design, more than 75% at least like it and would happily buy it. I'm willing to bet that not many production car manufacturers have had such a positive reaction to a newly introduced model, and many more would LOVE to have a better than 75% favorable response. Dave, Jim and the rest of the FF team should feel good about what they've done, and I ask them please don't shut us out of the 818 development.


What he said.

I truley thank FF for all their hard work. I too work in an industry in which the arm chair QB's complain about everything. I think these guys should put their money where their mouths are and produce their own bodies. I will continue to watch and wait for SEMA. Hopefully all goes well and the coupe comes. That is the 818 I am most interested in and think it will be a fantastic project.

Thanks Dave and keep your head high!

[Flamshackle]

I hope that Dave's frustration is really in response to the insults from the 3 or 4 individuals that effectively shut down the flow of information for the rest of us, and that he's not mad at the forum as a whole. According to the poll set up to gauge reaction to the body design, more than 75% at least like it and would happily buy it. I'm willing to bet that not many production car manufacturers have had such a positive reaction to a newly introduced model, and many more would LOVE to have a better than 75% favorable response. Dave, Jim and the rest of the FF team should feel good about what they've done, and I ask them please don't shut us out of the 818 development.


Dave Smith please listen to this post above^

This echos my frustration at how often the few spoil the brew.

[RodneyO]

I have been meaning to post something for a bit now. First of all I'm impressed with the way FFR, specially Dave has been approaching this whole project and I think the revealed design is awesome and it moves the bar for the competition higher. I'm curious to see how many other companies are hitting what FFR is doing right now.

I think the 818R is a step forward in a vision that FFR has, and to me this is one of the coolest things to see. We all have bosses, how often do you see an owner be at the front really leading their company, sharing info (publicly even), taking hits, caring for his team, spending time to talk directly to their customers, etc.? This speaks volumes about a company and the leadership it has. I don't know if this even relates but the most successful projects I've ever worked on have had the right combinations of things happening during their time (atleast from my observation); an exciting project, the right team members that have good chemistry, highly skilled individuals at their craft, great management, tons of passion, hopefully great funds to help it along, but most importantly trust. What is happening with FFR seems like an awesome recipe for great things to come.

Dave seems to trust his team, I think FFR deserves a little bit of support and trust from us as well. That doesn't mean we always have to agree with everything that is being decided and I would think that it is Ok to voice it. But in the end the trust you give them will make you feel more comfortable in the decisions that are being made.

I believe in community involvement, with it you get both the good and the bad but in a way it's how the future is being approached in so many industries.

Awesome adjustments, Jim... I have been around artists my whole career. The fact that you can do both, be technical and artistic and deliver both is cool! Awesome job man to you and the team that is putting this together.

I say show the track version at Sema, it should generate buzz and people intake things through their eyes first, so eye candy is always great for PR. Get people excited so word gets out.

I think FFR is delivering on a promise they made, 10k amazing kit, 15k amazing performance and a classic design. A potential future of multiple affordable bodies to please all different tastes of car design. Wow, what else could you ask for!?! I'm new to the Kit industry, I'm 35 and somehow in my mind I thought that only rich peeps were the only ones that could afford custom made cars (kits). This project is braking that perception (or atleast for me) and has potential to introduce a whole new market of young individuals wanting an awesome racing machine.

[Flamshackle]

I have been meaning to post something for a bit now. First of all I'm impressed with the way FFR, specially Dave has been approaching this whole project and I think the revealed design is awesome and it moves the bar for the competition higher. I'm curious to see how many other companies are hitting what FFR is doing right now.

I think the 818R is a step forward in a vision that FFR has, and to me this is one of the coolest things to see. We all have bosses, how often do you see an owner be at the front really leading their company, sharing info (publicly even), taking hits, caring for his team, spending time to talk directly to their customers, etc.? This speaks volumes about a company and the leadership it has. I don't know if this even relates but the most successful projects I've ever worked on have had the right combinations of things happening during their time (atleast from my observation); an exciting project, the right team members that have good chemistry, highly skilled individuals at their craft, great management, tons of passion, hopefully great funds to help it along, but most importantly trust. What is happening with FFR seems like an awesome recipe for great things to come.

Dave seems to trust his team, I think FFR deserves a little bit of support and trust from us as well. That doesn't mean we always have to agree with everything that is being decided and I would think that it is Ok to voice it. But in the end the trust you give them will make you feel more comfortable in the decisions that are being made.

I believe in community involvement, with it you get both the good and the bad but in a way it's how the future is being approached in so many industries.

Awesome adjustments, Jim... I have been around artists my whole career. The fact that you can do both, be technical and artistic and deliver both is cool! Awesome job man to you and the team that is putting this together.

I say show the track version at Sema, it should generate buzz and people intake things through their eyes first, so eye candy is always great for PR. Get people excited so word gets out.

I think FFR is delivering on a promise they made, 10k amazing kit, 15k amazing performance and a classic design. A potential future of multiple affordable bodies to please all different tastes of car design. Wow, what else could you ask for!?! I'm new to the Kit industry, I'm 35 and somehow in my mind I thought that only rich peeps were the only ones that could afford custom made cars (kits). This project is braking that perception (or atleast for me) and has potential to introduce a whole new market of young individuals wanting an awesome racing machine.

Great input Rodney thanks for giving us an artists perspective and for what I see as much needed support to Jim (from someone who knows) for his hard work, long hours and artistic passion he has poured into this car.

Jim I applaud you! over the last three days this car has grown on me so much more. I am REALLY REALLY liking the shape now.
Everyone I show it to I ask to rate it out of 10 and the average is a 7! If 9-10 are multimillin dollar supercars this really is a good watermark of how great it actually looks to the general public :)
I even had the owner of a Subaru shop today say "it's got to be a 9-10 that thing looks evil"

[riptide motorsport]

One thing that keeps sticking out in my mind......you all act as if this is a SUPER deaL or a real BARGUN The trueth is that for $3000.00 more you can build a C0bra. mabey less because a Fox donor could be picked up for $2000.00, so the Cobra finished may cost the same. Only when your finished with the Cobra. you have a world renouned car with and incredible resale value. The 818 may not have a resale value. Definitly a HOF car the C0bra is. So I do love the 818 and will probably build one........................but I don't feel the whole fire sale mentality, your all acting as if FFR is the only girl at the dance and somehow they are doing you a favor/////its a great company but its not like they're giving it away...............just my measly 2 cents...........flame away!!!!:)

[PhyrraM]

.........you all act as if this is a SUPER deaL or a real BARGUN The trueth is that for $3000.00 more you can build a C0bra. mabey less because a Fox donor could be picked up for $2000.00, so the Cobra finished may cost the same. ......:)

How much for paint and bodywork?

[bromikl]

Re: the next body

*disclaimer: I'm not an engineer. I don't design cars - in fact, I can't even draw. But I'm going to indulge in some wild speculation, anyway.

If we only had access to the frame CAD files. There are several people on this forum who could fit most reasonable designs to it. One artist per design, with suggestions from interested parties, like Rodney did when he fine-tuned his submission. Then we'd all know why, for example, you can't put a line there because...

With apologies to Dave and the crew, I'm speaking from a position of ignorance; because they've kept us ignorant - I suspect Jim's design could look way better if we had a chance to fine tune it. And I suspect Xabier's concept could have been made to fit, and many others as well - even some that didn't fit the template.

Maybe after all three bodies are in production, there could be an annual addition to the possible skins our 818's can wear. :)

[riptide motorsport]

Leave it gel coat red, they are very nice bodies. Sell it all day long for $23,000.00. $15000.00 is not chump change, it's alot of money.

[Joe]

Hang in there Dave..:)

[Pastenseverb]

“Crapped in my own flat hat? Apologize?! Not being upfront with us? “

Holy cow Dave, That's funny!
I've remained quiet about the 818 since it's inception but feel inclined to write this. I AM a Factory Five customer and purchasing, building and driving my MK3 was/is one of the best experiences of my life. I have had the real itch to do it again since I finished my Cobra and was looking at the 33. When I saw the email on the open house yesterday and watched the video, I decided to start looking for my donor Subaru. I'm drinking the Kool-Aid and have a box of brochures in my car and give them out everywhere I go. As for me, I thank you Dave and I have every confidence you will manage this appropriately and we will have an outstanding product when it is released. How often do we as the public get an input on future designs? I said input, not criticism.

Thanks Dave