Lets try an objective take on this

[Flamshackle]

Ok Ok so the cat is out of the proverbial bag... And it seems that not many here on this forum like cats...

There has definately been miscommunication and miss matched expectations that have brought things to a head.
Many have expressed feeling disappointed about this design (myself included, I was thinking for sure Rodney or Xavier's cars would be first up)
As we followed along in this forum we got attached to certain designs and we all had our personal fav's. If your anything like me you have been dreaming of how they would look in our garages.
But now we have the concrete reality of what it looks like and it didnt match up to the expectations of many.

BUT a very important question to ask you is the one of time and objectivity.

Please rate Jim's reworked design out of 10 on this following scale

10= The most awesome Looking car you have ever been graced to lay your eyes upon.
1= The ugliest beaten up heinous excuse for transport you have had the misfortune of being exposed to.

Try and think of all the other comparable cars in this weight/size ect. I would contend that there are not many as visually impressive as this one. Of course this will require some objectivity. For some this has to be found, dragged out from under the bed, dusted of and had the carby cleaned out.

The general public iv asked already have given the 818 design an average of 6.8 out of 10! which is not bad really.

It's grown on me today even to the point i could see it in my shed! so I am looking forward to more development and images to come :~)

Now for the time aspect.
Remember how many cars you didn't like when you first saw them on a car magazine cover when they were first released?
How many of them grew on you over time/ after seeing them in the flesh?

I think the vocal dislikes are more to do with the design selection process and communication breakdown than the actual car design itself.
If we were not to have seen the other designs and potentials we would I believe embrace this as a stunning option with much excitement about its release.

My 2c over...

http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/818poster.jpg

[Martin]

I like the car, and I am sure that if there wasn't a public design competition beforehand, many people would love it.

I've read every thread on the 818, but haven't been a contributor so far. I'm not a professional designer, nor am I a mechanical engineer that can turn a great looking design into a design that can actually be built - or even more impossibly be built at the price tag of $15k all in.

I really liked Xabier's race version during the competition, but I didn't like the redesigned/reworked model that everyone keeps talking about today (name escapes me for some reason, but I think it was RodneyO?).

Either way, it looks like a nice car. Not as exotic as I was hoping for, but I definitely don't think it looks bad by any stretch of the imagination. As I said above, I like it.

Once we finish our MK4 (about two years of building to go), and my wife realises that building a kit plane is a silly idea, I'd like to think we'll be in the market for another kit car. For some reason, I don't like the caterhams or 7-11's. If there was an exo-skeleton pure track car option for this, or a Xabier race version - I'd definitely consider it. As it stands today, I'd probably go for the GTM as our next one as it has the "skip a heart beat, what is it" look to it. However, the cost of a GTM with HOF vs an 818 with not quite HOF may make me revisit the 818 as a definite contender.

I do however, think that the design that has been shown so far is a good one. It meets the design goals of FFR, not just a wish list of looks and features of hundreds of outside observers.

Everyone piling into the discussion at the moment probably didn't have to consider the other design goals of cost, profit, aerodynamics, safety, ease of construction, no-paint bodies etc.

What has been achieved so far is a huge accomplishment for any automotive company, never mind someone like FFR who did it on a much smaller budget and much shorter time frames. I have a friend who works at Ford doing customer product testing. She gets in dozens of groups of people just to get their opinion and observe them use prototypes of cars and they spend hundreds of thousands on just the aesthetics and functionality of a wing mirror.

Credit should go where credit is due. It is a good looking car, and might be a great looking car when seen in the flesh.

Well done Factory Five and Jim especially. He's the guy who has worked hard on this almost entirely by himself. He's the one who will be taking all the comments personally about something he's put his heart and soul into.

I know that I couldn't do it, so I am not about to start throwing stones when I'm sitting in a glass house.

Martin





Ok Ok so the cat is out of the proverbial bag... And it seems that not many here on this forum like cats...

There has definately been miscommunication and miss matched expectations that have brought things to a head.
Many have expressed feeling disappointed about this design (myself included, I was thinking for sure Rodney or Xavier's cars would be first up)
As we followed along in this forum we got attached to certain designs and we all had our personal fav's. If your anything like me you have been dreaming of how they would look in our garages.
But now we have the concrete reality of what it looks like and it didnt match up to the expectations of many.

BUT a very important question to ask you is the one of time and objectivity.

Please rate Jim's reworked design out of 10 on this following scale

10= The most awesome Looking car you have ever been graced to lay your eyes upon.
1= The ugliest beaten up heinous excuse for transport you have had the misfortune of being exposed to.

Try and think of all the other comparable cars in this weight/size ect. I would contend that there are not many as visually impressive as this one. Of course this will require some objectivity. For some this has to be found, dragged out from under the bed, dusted of and had the carby cleaned out.

The general public iv asked already have given the 818 design an average of 6.8 out of 10! which is not bad really.

It's grown on me today even to the point i could see it in my shed! so I am looking forward to more development and images to come :~)

Now for the time aspect.
Remember how many cars you didn't like when you first saw them on a car magazine cover when they were first released?
How many of them grew on you over time/ after seeing them in the flesh?

I think the vocal dislikes are more to do with the design selection process and communication breakdown than the actual car design itself.
If we were not to have seen the other designs and potentials we would I believe embrace this as a stunning option with much excitement about its release.

My 2c over...

[wallace18]

I would like to echo what Martin said. I think if FFR just released this car without the design contest and forum stuff it would be better recieved. Congrats to FFR!

[metalmaker12]

The car is a good looking car and does match the design goals, It has grown on me, i like it now, where we sign.

[FinishlineWRX]

For me Its not the OMG best design I've seen but, I still really like it and will be buying one as soon as I can. However I do wish that the front bumper was a little more aggressive looking but still not bad. Good Job FFR

[Kalstar]

I bet when seen in person, it will blow your socks off.

[dbjr63]

i plan to still buy the coupe, i just hope the body style is bettter than the 818R (race version)

[shim2]

Pictures never give cars justice and they almost always look 10x better in person. With that said. I like it, I'm going to buy it. Still not 100% if I'm going to buy the convert or wait for the coupe. I've never really been a fan of convertibles or soft tops so I doubt I will, but I do like the way this one looks above other convertibles. Overall I'm pleased with this car and FFR should pat themselves on the back.

[VTX]

Right now I am a 6. I'd like to see it from some other angles and in some solid colors that show off the car's lines well (white or silver) and maybe without the white rims (gunmetal maybe) and I might move that rating up. Different headlights I think would also improve it quite a bit.

[305mouse]

I first saw it via text message on my iphone. My initial reaction was, that looks pretty great. Second reaction, huh...that's Jim's design. It looked a lot better than before but the more I look at it the more I want the front to be a little different. With how this looks right now, I would like to have it in my driveway. I love Rodney's design after all the changes, but I'm sure with all the curves and complexity of it all, that the body would end up raising the price outside of the $10K target. I expect the road version to be the exact same design, just with a full windshield and minus the spoiler, even though I want the spoiler on my mine. The high mileage coupe might be a completely differnt design, maybe like Rodney's or something we've never seen before and the cost of that I'm sure will be a lot more. I will have to wait about 5 years before this is a reality for me. But I want an open top and this design sits well with me. It's not HOF, but it's the next best thing. I imagine it'll look even better in person.

It would be nice to have a photoshop of it in a solid color, with oem wrx wheels and full windshield. Just to try and gauge how the DD version would really look as you build it for roughly $15k.

[Mechie3]

I voted 7 according to the scale you gave. If I was told to just rank it on a scale of 1-10 I probably would have chosen 8. In my mind it's really an 8.5, not quite 9.

An 8 is it's more than good enough that I'd buy it (and plan to) but could still be better and I would consider modifying it myself, but not sure I actually would.

A 9 would be "it can be better, but not worth my time changing it at all".

A 10 would be "best thing ever". I think short of a real exotic no car reaches 10/10 just because it's impossible to get the same craftsmanship for $15k vs $350k.

Look at what else you can get for $15k (or less)? A quick google search says

Mazda 2
Kia Rio
Hyundai Accent
Smart Fortwo
Nissan Cube
Chevy Sonic
Nissan Versa

Yeah, nothing on that list is cool. Economy cars? Yup.

The 818R shown looks way better than any of those. The closest thing it looks like is (in my opinion, minus the front bumper) either a mazda miata ($25k msrp), or the back /side is reminiscent of a porsche boxster spyder ($61k msrp).

[skullandbones]

I still have to go with a 6 but that could change as it "grows on me". I think the coupe or something like that will be next so I am anticipating that version. One thing I don't need is two roadsters in my garage. Deep down, I bet FFR and Dave would rather see this start out slow and steady rather than "knock the doors down, I have to have it" sort of event. For them it will be a long term commitment and adjustment to the volume buying that could result from this launch. I think FFR will sell a lot of these cars outside the US and north america. So, it will be interesting to see if they can keep up with the rush. WEK.

[StatGSR]

The only thing that really bugs me is the front end, i dislike the huge Camry headlights, and a i think the front bumper is trying too hard, its got that open fish mouth vacuum look going on that just bugs the heck out of me. I really don't think it would take much to make me love it, but right now i do find the front end to be offensive, sort of like a Camry with an unpainted body kit strait from ebay...


Sadly, in its current state it really makes me reconsider going out and getting a used S2000 and starting there, or going back to reviewing my exocar options. One of the only things that would make me say i want it as is, would be if there was a sanctioned spec series for it as my desire to have a spec car that's more fun to drive than a miata would probably help me get over the looks.

[StatGSR]

Look at what else you can get for $15k (or less)? A quick google search says

Mazda 2
Kia Rio
Hyundai Accent
Smart Fortwo
Nissan Cube
Chevy Sonic
Nissan Versa

Yeah, nothing on that list is cool. Economy cars? Yup.


well your missing some important other cars in the used market

Honda S2000
Nissan 350Z
Spec Miata Race Car
Porsche Boxter

heck for a little over 20k i can basically buy my favorite MR car ever made, the Acura NSX

keep in mind, your donor and its parts are not "new" atleast they won't be if your shooting for the 15K build cost.

[JRL]

Ok Ok so the cat is out of the proverbial bag... And it seems that not many here on this forum like cats...

There has definately been miscommunication and miss matched expectations that have brought things to a head.
Many have expressed feeling disappointed about this design (myself included, I was thinking for sure Rodney or Xavier's cars would be first up)
As we followed along in this forum we got attached to certain designs and we all had our personal fav's. If your anything like me you have been dreaming of how they would look in our garages.
But now we have the concrete reality of what it looks like and it didnt match up to the expectations of many.

BUT a very important question to ask you is the one of time and objectivity.

Please rate Jim's reworked design out of 10 on this following scale

10= The most awesome Looking car you have ever been graced to lay your eyes upon.
1= The ugliest beaten up heinous excuse for transport you have had the misfortune of being exposed to.

Try and think of all the other comparable cars in this weight/size ect. I would contend that there are not many as visually impressive as this one. Of course this will require some objectivity. For some this has to be found, dragged out from under the bed, dusted of and had the carby cleaned out.The general public iv asked already have given the 818 design an average of 6.8 out of 10! which is not bad really.

It's grown on me today even to the point i could see it in my shed! so I am looking forward to more development and images to come :~)

Now for the time aspect.
Remember how many cars you didn't like when you first saw them on a car magazine cover when they were first released?
How many of them grew on you over time/ after seeing them in the flesh?

I think the vocal dislikes are more to do with the design selection process and communication breakdown than the actual car design itself.
If we were not to have seen the other designs and potentials we would I believe embrace this as a stunning option with much excitement about its release.

My 2c over...

This statement has nothing to do with the car.

Dave practically promised we would not get Jim's design (even a reworked one) and that is exactly what we got. I am extremely disappointed and will move in another direction.

[bobzdar]

This is about what I expected (I gave it a 6), around a 6.5. This is good but not great. IMO, they needed to take more of a risk, if you look at the sports cars that have or are coming out in the next couple of years, they are much less conservative (Porsche 918, Ferrari F12, Acura NSX, Viper) and even looking at cars released in the last 2 years they are much less conservative (Aventador, Ferrari 458, Lexus LFA). If you want that HOF look, you cannot be so conservative. However, there's a risk you get too wild and it doesn't age well. I think the Aventador, Viper, and 458 with it's crazy headlights risk that, but right now they look good and that's more important than 10 years from now if you want to sell them. If they want this car to generate genuine HOF interest, it needs to look like a car from 1-2 years in the future, not 5 years in the past. A Nissan 370z or GTR are more modern and agressive looking and I don't consider either of those 'agressively' styled.

[RonSchofield]

If it was Rodney's design, it was going to be my next project. With this design I am going in another direction. I don't like this one.

[shim2]

Dave practically promised we would not get Jim's design (even a reworked one) and that is exactly what we got. I am extremely disappointed and will move in another direction.

To be completely honest. I think this is the reason for so much negativity about the car and I really think Dave himself needs to address that ASAP. A simple explanation and maybe an apology goes a long, long way.

[Mechie3]

I wasn't on the forums when all that went down, so I get the feeling I'm missing out on a big chunk of where the disappointment comes from.

While the front bumper could use some work (though, I think a full on frontal shot might change my mind) I'm still super pumped for Spring 2013!

[JRL]

I am left with the feeling of being duped. Jim's design was rejected by what 80% of the folks here but we kept seeing it pop up. I really think the entire "design contest" was marketing hype to get folks on board and the intention was to use Jim's design for the first offering regardless of the designs submitted. Sad really and a huge disappointment.

Jim may be a hard worker and nice guy but he is to car designing what Stevie Wonder is to brain surgery - out of his area of expertise.

[bobzdar]

I am left with the feeling of being duped. Jim's design was rejected by what 80% of the folks here but we kept seeing it pop up. I really think the entire "design contest" was marketing hype to get folks on board and the intention was to use Jim's design for the first offering regardless of the designs submitted. Sad really and a huge disappointment.

Jim may be a hard worker and nice guy but he is to car designing what Stevie Wonder is to brain surgery - out of his area of expertise.


I don't agree. I think the shape of the car more closely resembles Xabier's car, but the details look more like Jim's. I think they did use at least some of the shaping and proportions from the design contest cars, but then had Jim work the details, which not surprisingly are similar to his initial effort. I think Dave underestimated how important those details were and/or how bad a taste the initial effort from Jim had left in our mouths. I think getting rid of the bar that goes across the front fascia just under the radiator opening goes a long way to distancing it from Jim's initial effort and some other detail work can improve it, but as it sits it's merely good, not great.

[Nuul]

The car is a good looking car and does match the design goals ... where do we sign.

Exactly. I've shown this car to ~5 people and everyone has loved it. If there was a waiting list I'd already be on it.

[16g-95gsx]

This statement has nothing to do with the car.

Dave practically promised we would not get Jim's design (even a reworked one) and that is exactly what we got. I am extremely disappointed and will move in another direction.

My thoughts exactly. I am trying to reserve my judgement until I see the street/coupe version, and other angles but I'm a bit disappointed. Considering in the end they went with an in-house built design over all others it makes the design competition look like a publicity stunt more than anything to me. This is coming from someone who has actively been looking into this project since I first heard about it well over a year ago. I've been checking the forums since last night hoping to hear more thoughts from Dave, and possibly some other shots that help explain the direction/design choice.

[spaceywilly]

I was interested in building an 818 but I will not build it with this body... simple as that. Hopefully the other bodies will be nicer. If Dave is looking for feedback, I like the rear but the front end is awful. The headlights, the bumper design, and the proportions are all wrong.

[pmmjarrett]

I am trying to reserve my judgement until I see the street/coupe version, and other angles but I'm a bit disappointed. Considering in the end they went with an in-house built design over all others it makes the design competition look like a publicity stunt more than anything to me. This is coming from someone who has actively been looking into this project since I first heard about it well over a year ago. I've been checking the forums since last night hoping to hear more thoughts from Dave, and possibly some other shots that help explain the direction/design choice.

Pretty much nailed my thoughts.

I love the chassis and donor concept and it's about time someone did a rear longitudinal engine transaxle combo that was designed to go together without adaptors and hard to find parts for a dependable daily driver and I give that a 10.

The body... At least in the 818R form, I'm not pleased with at all and absolutly hate the front, especially the headlights. Overall it still resembles a Mazda MX-5 with a body kit to me.

I'll reserve final judgement for a street version in a Coupe, Targa or hardtop roadster. If the street versions don't have the WOW factor where I think people would be more inclined to ask me "what kind of car is that" instead of "where did you get the body kit for your Miata" then I'm out.

[RM1SepEx]

It's a compilation of designs that were reviewed on this forum. It will meet the design goals, while none of the designs has ever set my hair on fire this is a damn nice looking car and it will meet/exceed my expectations. I know many just love Rodney's design, I don't! I like the more traditional design. I understand that the no paint design constraint must result in body design compromises.

I'm looking forward to building this car as soon as I can, donor parts start reconditioning this week. I can see the convertable being this track car with no wing, no angled door tubes and a windshield.

While I may not be really excited by every single part of the design I can not have any expectation of that being the case...

I think that this is an excellent design that will sell well. Many might want to wait for a coupe... I like V man's and Shawn's designs too... That won't stop me from building this version because my life revolves around driving fun with the top down... (I do have 5 convertibles and 9 motorcycles)

[D2W]

It will meet the design and price goals minus the HOF quotient. To me it has seemed from the beginning that Dave has pushed Jim's design. Jim's design was being built full size during the contest. Jim picked a design for his favorite from the contest that wasn't even close to buildable. Early on Jim was to pick the final body design, when his was released and met with almost universal dislike Dave said he was now in charge of picking the final design, to me seems like a final was already chosen and Dave was going to take the heat for it. All along we have been promised hair on fire, yet this design which was not well liked compared to the others, has continued to be presented to us. If this was the path they chose to take great, but don't tell us several designs are being considered when that doesn't appear to have ever been true. If Jim's design was the only one that can meet the cost and manufacturability goals come out and tell us, don't keep cramming it down out throats with the expectations that we're going to change out minds about it.

[Flamshackle]

If it was Rodney's design, it was going to be my next project. With this design I am going in another direction. I don't like this one.

So because one of the three shells is not what you liked you won't wait a year for the next design? It's one of three desins for this chassis remember. Comments like this remind me that there were not serious buyers contributing on this forum.

[Flamshackle]

To be completely honest. I think this is the reason for so much negativity about the car and I really think Dave himself needs to address that ASAP. A simple explanation and maybe an apology goes a long, long way.

While I would be nice to hear what Dave's thoughts are about that issue I think an apology is not nessesary. It's his company, his design, his choice. If people don't like it they won't buy it.
I'm going to buy it bacause I like it enough to have it in my garage.

We are overstepping the mark to think Dave owes anyone an apology for his buisiness decisions when it's his buisiness on the line. Heck I haven't even seen one of the top 3 designers complain about this yet!

Keep it in perspective people!

[xscott]

Agreed, I think Dave just played up the HOF aspect that got people to hyped up, You can't win them all.


While I would be nice to hear what Dave's thoughts are about that issue I think an apology is not nessesary. It's his company, his design, his choice. If people don't like it they won't buy it.
I'm going to buy it bacause I like it enough to have it in my garage.

We are overstepping the mark to think Dave owes anyone an apology for his buisiness decisions when it's his buisiness on the line. Heck I haven't even seen one of the top 3 designers complain about this yet!

Keep it in perspective people!

[D2W]

I agree he has no need to apologize, but an explanation would be nice. Tell us why this design was chosen, when it has never had a favorable reaction. We were told to expect hair on fire, 6.8 out of 10 is not HOF.

[shim2]

While I would be nice to hear what Dave's thoughts are about that issue I think an apology is not nessesary. It's his company, his design, his choice. If people don't like it they won't buy it.
I'm going to buy it bacause I like it enough to have it in my garage.

We are overstepping the mark to think Dave owes anyone an apology for his buisiness decisions when it's his buisiness on the line. Heck I haven't even seen one of the top 3 designers complain about this yet!

Keep it in perspective people!

Good points, I agree.

[D2W]

So because one of the three shells is not what you liked you won't wait a year for the next design? It's one of three desins for this chassis remember. Comments like this remind me that there were not serious buyers contributing on this forum.

Technically its 2 of 3. And as far a not serious buyers contributing, I think thats hogwash. I don't know Ron, but I know of his heavily modified FFR coupe. I believe he was a potential buyer, as was I, but now because the design is not to some peoples liking they were'nt ever serious. I think you will find there are just as many likers as dislikers who never have any intention of buying.

[xscott]

He doesn't owe anyone an apology. Maybe a truth to how the process really went underneath the forum chatter though? That would clear up many for people and even put understanding into the situation

[Mechie3]

We were told to expect hair on fire, 6.8 out of 10 is not HOF.

Technically, HOF is 8 on the scale. 6.8 is 85% of the way to hair on fire. ;)

[RM1SepEx]

While I would be nice to hear what Dave's thoughts are about that issue I think an apology is not nessesary. It's his company, his design, his choice. If people don't like it they won't buy it.
I'm going to buy it bacause I like it enough to have it in my garage.

We are overstepping the mark to think Dave owes anyone an apology for his buisiness decisions when it's his buisiness on the line. Heck I haven't even seen one of the top 3 designers complain about this yet!

Keep it in perspective people!

well said, making space in my garage too and BTW just picked up a 4 post lift for the garage too!

[RonSchofield]

Technically its 2 of 3. And as far a not serious buyers contributing, I think thats hogwash. I don't know Ron, but I know of his heavily modified FFR coupe. I believe he was a potential buyer, as was I, but now because the design is not to some peoples liking they were'nt ever serious. I think you will find there are just as many likers as dislikers who never have any intention of buying.

I had all intentions of buying Rodney's design. Why would someone buy a vehicle that they don't like the looks of? Rodney's design had the most positive response by the forum. When you release a product, you do market studies and get reception from possible buyers.

Dave has all the right to make whatever choices he wants to go forward with Factory Five. It is his company. I as a buyer have the right to buy or not what Dave produces.

I purchased the coupe over roadster, GTM or 33 because I liked it much better. Does that mean that making the roadster, GTM or 33 is wrong, not at all. There will be people who will buy this 818, just not me.

And I was SERIOUS about purchasing Rodney's design. And I might still purchase, if Dave sells the 818 as a body less product. I will make my own body using Rodney's design.

[Evan55]

I was really looking forward to the car, but the design is uninspiring. Its a generic and bland wedge shape, which is really a shame considering all the fantastic designs submitted in the contest.
To sum it up, it makes me say "meh"
People dont spend hours and hours and hours building a kit car and then dealing with the drawbacks of one for "meh"

What I would love to hear from FF and the engineers that would make me feel 100% better, is if there were compromises that *had* to be made to the body shape to fit either the frame or keep the cost low.
Does a straight boxed frame not support more curved and swoopy bodywork?
Would the more swoopy bodywork cost considerably more to manufacture (isnt it molded?)

I think it will still look pretty good in final form, but nobody can blame us for feeling the twinge of disapointment considering all the great designs we were looking at

[Evan78]

Ron - what other direction are you considering?

[RonSchofield]

Ron - what other direction are you considering?

1970 Mustang Fastback Trans-Am Replica

[Evan78]

1970 Mustang Fastback Trans-Am ReplicaCool, my buddy is in the middle of a 69 fastback build.

[Evan78]

I think the text descriptions skew the pole results. I would have guessed 10 to be hair on fire.

[Flamshackle]

... as far a not serious buyers contributing, I think thats hogwash. I don't know Ron, but I know of his heavily modified FFR coupe. I believe he was a potential buyer, as was I, but now because the design is not to some peoples liking they were'nt ever serious. I think you will find there are just as many likers as dislikers who never have any intention of buying.

Sorry for not communicating my thoughts more clearly, the main thrust is a patience issue to me.

This design was to be one of at least THREE.

So what I find it unbelievable that someone who "loves" the concept of this car and has already been waiting for more than a year can't wait another for more favorable options?

[Flamshackle]

I think the text descriptions skew the pole results. I would have guessed 10 to be hair on fire.

Sorry the poll wasn't a matter of science but more as a very rough reference... One that shows that it is actually a liked design when looked at with a measure of objectivity and being set free from forum blindness.

[RM1SepEx]

I had all intentions of buying Rodney's design. Why would someone buy a vehicle that they don't like the looks of? Rodney's design had the most positive response by the forum. When you release a product, you do market studies and get reception from possible buyers.

Dave has all the right to make whatever choices he wants to go forward with Factory Five. It is his company. I as a buyer have the right to buy or not what Dave produces.

I purchased the coupe over roadster, GTM or 33 because I liked it much better. Does that mean that making the roadster, GTM or 33 is wrong, not at all. There will be people who will buy this 818, just not me.

And I was SERIOUS about purchasing Rodney's design. And I might still purchase, if Dave sells the 818 as a body less product. I will make my own body using Rodney's design.

You knew that Rodney's coupe would NOT be the first one out, why such negativity?

[Evan78]

Sorry the poll wasn't a matter of science but more as a very rough reference... One that shows that it is actually a liked design when looked at with a measure of objectivity and being set free from forum blindness.I understand. I think it's a good poll and achieves your goal, but the text may push people away/to the numbers based on how they feel about the description attached. I'd probably give the car an 8, but agree more with "eye candy and then some" than "hair on fire", so what do I rate it?

[ScottKoschwitz]

I voted 6, but, by being on a scale of 10, this understates how much I like it. From my perspective, the end of the scale is really 8. Six on a scale of 8 is a pretty good showing based on a single rendering.

Only one car in the contest was an 8 to me: Shawn Whetstone's. FFR did not pursue that design. I don't know why; my hunch is technical infeasibility, it fell outside the design parameters (including cost), or when you tried to move it from two dimensions to three, it just didn't look good. I don't really buy the story that there was a "fix" for an in-house design. FFR had rights to use any design submitted for the contest. They would pass on a popular, technically feasible design for the less-favored in-house design because. . . ?

The concept of this of this project has always excited me more than what it's going to look like. As I said in another thread: based on the single rendering, I am still interested, and that's all I expect at this stage in the process.

[RonSchofield]

You knew that Rodney's coupe would NOT be the first one out, why such negativity?

This is not being negative. I just said that I wouldn't be purchasing this. If it was me, I would have turned Rodney's design into a roadster and coupe.

[Xusia]

If I read what Dave is saying correctly, it wasn't possible to fit designs like Rodney's onto the frame (without major modifications that would ruin the character, I assume). Remember, they did look at Rodney's in CAD. So what to do?? They needed to balance a lot of goals, so what they did makes sense. It's not like the design is ugly! In fact, it's growing on me a bit. I'd really like to see some other angles, but based on what's transpired over the last couple days I have to doubt that will happen...

[Flamshackle]

If I read what Dave is saying correctly, it wasn't possible to fit designs like Rodney's onto the frame (without major modifications that would ruin the character, I assume). Remember, they did look at Rodney's in CAD. So what to do?? They needed to balance a lot of goals, so what they did makes sense. It's not like the design is ugly! In fact, it's growing on me a bit. I'd really like to see some other angles, but based on what's transpired over the last couple days I have to doubt that will happen...

Dave has made it abundantly clear they will not be doing any more reveals until Sema now. Sad but I'm happy with the way it's gone now so now it's just a matter of sitting back and waiting for Sema!

...when is Sema by the by?

[Best of the best]

Like said before. The contest was just a PR stunt to bring in new customers like my self. It's like going into an Audi dealer with an R8 sitting in there. If you can afford it you can have it. If not they can show you other models that is not appealing as an R8.

[07FIREBLADE]

Wow just took the poll and i was #100, rated the car as a 7 because it is growing on me more and more as I look at it. Ive been stalking this forums forever now, almost 3-5 daily hopeful that there will be an update ever since January this year. Ive been searching all over craigslist trying to find donors too. Ever since the 1/4 scale models were revealed ive fallen in love with Rodney's design. Hopefully when the coupe comes out that this body will be it with a few modifications to make it more manufacture oriented. Im a Mechanical Engineering student emphasis in Automotive design and manufacturing so i understand the parameters that Dave is having to meet. It sucks with having the miscommunication which led to many people being disappoint hopefully FFR will be successful with the launch of the 818 and a coupe/ and or targa will follow shortly afterward.

It seems like we are not gonna get any more info on the car until it is launched which sucks to have to wait months to see the finished results. I think the technical info should still be shared so people who are trying to get a donor lined up can start their disassemble and reman right away so they are ready for when the car launches.

[NonProfit]

...when is Sema by the by?

The SEMA Show takes place October 30 - November 2, 2012 (http://www.semashow.com/the-sema-show) at the Las Vegas Convention Center.

[Niburu]

Like said before. The contest was just a PR stunt to bring in new customers like my self. It's like going into an Audi dealer with an R8 sitting in there. If you can afford it you can have it. If not they can show you other models that is not appealing as an R8.

but this is going to be the least expensive kit FFR has ever offered, how does that analogy apply?

[Mike N]

but this is going to be the least expensive kit FFR has ever offered, how does that analogy apply?

The Roadster was that price when it was first released, so 'has ever offered' is technically not correct but your point is not lost. When released it will be the lowest priced offering from FFR by a wide margin.

[BipDBo]

The Roadster was that price when it was first released, so 'has ever offered' is technically not correct but your point is not lost. When released it will be the lowest priced offering from FFR by a wide margin.

I think that when the Roadster was introduced in 1995, the kit price was $9995. A dollar in 1995 was worth more than a dollar today, so I think that the statement still stands. If you account for the cost to complete including a paint job, this statement is even stronger.

[Mike N]

I think that when the Roadster was introduced in 1995, the kit price was $9995. A dollar in 1995 was worth more than a dollar today, so I think that the statement still stands. If you account for the cost to complete including a paint job, this statement is even stronger.

Semantics - I am not disagreeing with the OP's statement, like I said the point about price / cost is not lost. This is (will be) a true benchmark among component car manufacturers.

[skullandbones]

I've already voted but wanted to make an observation. If you lay the bar graphs over so they are vertical and superimpose a normal curve, it fits!!! Although not a scientific statistical event, it probably reflects reality in this group. There are a few who love it, a few who hate it and then everybody else in between. That's to be expected. FFR should be happy with that. WEK.

[Oppenheimer]

I don't really buy the story that there was a "fix" for an in-house design. FFR had rights to use any design submitted for the contest. They would pass on a popular, technically feasible design for the less-favored in-house design because. . . ?

Exactly. Its a business, not a conspiracy. If they could build one of those other more popular designs, and still meet the other goals, why wouldn't they? Even if they started with the intent to dup as all, and the contest was some sort of fraud, if it turned out there were popular, buildable, affordable designs that resulted, why wouldn't they just switch to one of those?

What do you think the profit margins are on a <$10K kit with a no-paint body, and a host of other 'firsts' for the industry? We can still get other body designs, later, with more R&D, and likely slightly higher cost. But only if the first design is a success (so there is $ coming in to pay for the further R&D).

So if you really want to build an 818, but you don't like this body #1 design, then get on board as a supporter, so success can drive the next body release.

[blueafro]

My feelings are very mixed. I like the car from what we know so far, but I don't think it looks any better or bolder than a Camry.

I voted 5. It's not ugly, but it's not interesting.

This is the most likely FFR car for me to build, for reasons of costs and mass, and since I don't care that much how a sports car looks, that's a good enough score for me. (I do care a little, but even in that light, it's still the most likely FFR car for me build, since I'd put the GTM at 3 due to some very awkward details and the Roadster at 2 due to my having gotten tired of clones of that particular design several decades ago.)

As well as for looking a little goofy on a mid-engined car, the long nose concerns me for the approach angle. That won't necessarily be a problem on a track car (though not everyone owns a low-ramp trailer), but if that translates to the street body, I could see a lot of people having trouble with driveways.

Other than that (and the cage, which needs a lot of work for the track), I don't have any specific critiques, but there's also not a single aspect of the design that stands out as interesting to me.

While publicity was no doubt part of the goal of the contest, I believe Dave when he says they tried hard but could not make the more popular contest entries fit around the chassis. In that light it's a real shame there wasn't a more detailed template so that some of the genuine design talent we saw in some of the contest entries could have been better harvested.

Realistically, Jim's design was always going to have the best shot at production, since it is the only one FFR has known from the start could be produced. In the end, the contest entries no doubt benefited the end result by donating a line or two here or there or by generating a healthy (if sometimes fanatical) discussion.

This design is good enough. I won't be as likely to build it as I would be if I thought it was good looking, but as long as it's a good car when it's released, I remain a potential builder. If all goes well, it should give lighter than Elise mass with Exige or better power at the price of a really nice MR2 or a beater Elise. If the handling is well-sorted it's hard to think of a better deal on the market, this side of a Locost. A car like that should be a winner, however it looks.

[zzospreyzz55]

The car is not ugly by any means. I rated it a 6 based on the descriptions, but if it were just a 1-10 ranking I probably would have went 7. IMO the best words to describe the design is uninspired and unremarkable. It looks exactly like blueafro just described: they tried to make other designs work and they couldn't so they went with what they knew they could. Hopefully the design is not final and it's still a work in progress. I don't have a problem with the base, but I think there's still some tweaks that could be done to the current body and make it much more aggressive and era appropriate.

[Horhay]

It looks like an uninspired kit car to me. That's the nicest way I can put it. I still love the chassis and donor setup but this body is a 110% no from me.

[leetfade]

How many $15k cars do you buy off the lot and LOVE the looks on? This is better than the vast majority of them, it will be a new body / suspension (mostly) and it will outperform close to, if not, all of them.

Sure there are some steals out there and a few really nice cars in that price point, but most have had a long hard life and it will take another 5k+ to get them anywhere near what the 818 is shaping up to be.

Granted this is 100% my opinion and everyone else will see things a bit differently, but it just seems like a lot of car for the money.

[Horhay]

Leetfade, remember we have to include used cars here. I'd take a used Boxster and have $5k for improvements. IMO, the 818 was already going to have a decent challenge stacking up against the Boxster and other sub $15k used sports cars, and that was before any talk of styling.

[N8Salem]

I just had to register to comment on the 818. First of all I've always thought a turbo boxer 4 would send Lotus and Porsche back to the drawing board. The lower center of gravity, weight, and Subaru's hp potential makes you wonder why Lotus contracted with Toyota and not Subaru. The 2 issues I have with the 818 is the name sounds like something from rap music referring to an area code and 2. the tire clearances. This is obviously going to be a dry weather only car and the Subaru engines are going to be easily modded to over 400hp, so we could take a lesson from the 1983 Mustang GTP with a 600bhp Turbo 4 at under 2k lbs that pulled over 1.4g and to this day I have not seen that number topped. Granted the tires were equivalent to 355/40/15 rear on a front engine car and 295/35/15 front which coincides with the popular 345/30/19 RR tires today and say 285/30/18 up front would be nice to fit under the 818 for generating maximum g's which is where the 818 would dominate. That being said the 818 should have a name, not a number.

[Oppenheimer]

...the 818 should have a name, not a number.

You missed the months long thread where we tried to come up with a name. Dave set the challenge, and we all came up with many, many names, but nothing that was thought to be 'the one'. So the temporary 818 name that Dave came up with stuck. You are welcome to find that thread and submit your name ideas.


IMO, the 818 was already going to have a decent challenge stacking up against the Boxster and other sub $15k used sports cars....

Really? its 1800 lbs, and almost unlimited HP potential (and significant HP possible even @ modest cost). So pwr/wgt ratio will be off the charts (for this price range and for anything short of true exotics), plus handling & braking will benefit from the low wgt as well (not to mention race inspired suspension setup).

Not seeing how this compares to most any used sports car, regardless of price. Regarding performance, it will absolutely destroy the cars you are comparing it to. Of course, if you are talking about everyday usability, while still being fun to drive, then yeah, most anything sporty would win out. That isn't what this car is about.

In what way(s) were you thinking it would have a challenge stacking up?

[leetfade]

Leetfade, remember we have to include used cars here. I'd take a used Boxster and have $5k for improvements. IMO, the 818 was already going to have a decent challenge stacking up against the Boxster and other sub $15k used sports cars, and that was before any talk of styling.

Absolutely am!

I just purchased a 93 Mazda RX-7 FD3S last year for $10k and I would take that over a Boxster any day (albeit I love Porsche). The reality is that it's had a rough life as most used performance cars have (I'd imagine the Boxster is less beat on but still). To get my car where I want it, I need about another $30k. Granted that's a bit over the top, but I will have $5k in it EASILY and not have it where the 818 would be. To get the suspension alone up to the 818 it would take that much! Then there's the maintenance and re-work from previous owner neglect / abuse.

Like I said though, there are great finds out there on great cars, but they are few and far between. An 818 SHOULD make short work of a Boxster and would turn more heads even in the form that everyone is calling "uninspired".

Don't get me wrong, I'm by no means knocking a Boxster or even my FD, I'm just saying that, for the money, it's hard to match the amount of car you get!

[Evan78]

That's what I'm wondering too, what measurements are you using when you say the 818 is going to have a hard time stacking up to production vehicles?

[N8Salem]

That's what I'm wondering too, what measurements are you using when you say the 818 is going to have a hard time stacking up to production vehicles?

The wheelbase is going to make it more a rally car like the Stratos than a g machine like it should be. They shouldn't be worried about comparing it to commuter cars and if they do it right they should have a spec series even bigger than their cobra one. Here's some dimensions they should be looking at. I'm not saying they should build an 800hp motor, but they should be able to fit the tires so people can experience the g forces that no other car can provide.

1991-1993 Toyota Eagle MkIII Specifications Designer: Hiro Fujimori, John Ward
Layout: Mid-engine, rear-wheel drive
Monocoque: Carbon fiber and aluminum honeycomb
Engine: 2.1 liter, Toyota 503E, I4, 16-valve, single turbo
Horsepower: 800+ hp (1992 54 mm air restrictor)
700 hp (1993 52 mm air restrictor)
Gearbox: Ray Eades March 5-speed
Steering: Rack and pinion
Suspension: F: Upper and lower wishbones, pushrod, inboard mounted spring/damper
R: Upper and lower wishbones, pushrod, inboard bellhousing mounted spring/damper
Brakes: 14 in. ventilated discs (1992: carbon, 1993: iron, due to IMSA regulation change), with Brembo four-piston calipers
Wheels: F: 17in. x 13in.
R: 17in .x 15in.
BBS alloy
Tires: F: 25.5in. x 12.5in. (*equal to a 315/35/17 on the front!)
R: 28.5in. x 14.5in. (*just about an inch wider than the Enzo's 345/35/19s)
Goodyear Eagle Racing Radials
Length: 4800 mm
Width: 2000 mm
Height: 1016 mm
Wheelbase: 2667 mm
Weight: 832 kgs. (1992)
914 kgs. (1993) IMSA regulation change
Tank capacity: 31 gal. (1992)
28 gal. (1993) IMSA regulation change

[StatGSR]

^ lmao, that toyota race car and the 818 did not have the same design goals dude....

if you want that kinda performance, you can blow your wad of cash on something like this Riley for your track day toy....
http://www.rileytech.com/PDF/TrackDayCar.pdf

[shim2]

Comparing a purpose built race car to a street/track car is silly.

[Horhay]

Absolutely am!

I just purchased a 93 Mazda RX-7 FD3S last year for $10k and I would take that over a Boxster any day (albeit I love Porsche). The reality is that it's had a rough life as most used performance cars have (I'd imagine the Boxster is less beat on but still). To get my car where I want it, I need about another $30k. Granted that's a bit over the top, but I will have $5k in it EASILY and not have it where the 818 would be. To get the suspension alone up to the 818 it would take that much! Then there's the maintenance and re-work from previous owner neglect / abuse.

Like I said though, there are great finds out there on great cars, but they are few and far between. An 818 SHOULD make short work of a Boxster and would turn more heads even in the form that everyone is calling "uninspired".

Don't get me wrong, I'm by no means knocking a Boxster or even my FD, I'm just saying that, for the money, it's hard to match the amount of car you get!

First of all, what are you basing your opinions of the 818's capabilities on? Second, what are your goals for an 818?

My goal for the 818 would be that I could take it for cruises, take it autocrossing, take it to the track, and take it to car shows. I'd expect the car to be good in all those situations or I wouldn't be buying. Notice I don't say, "I want a daily driver". The car must be complete though, not some tube frame go-cart with an obviously kit car body, beating me to death every step of the way. The 818-R can be that car, but I'm not interested in the R.

Also, I've owned several performance cars, from my daily driver Impreza 2.5RS (only about 170hp, but the suspension is totally sorted), to a 400whp well modified STi, to a Porsche 996, up to my current 500whp MKIV Supra. To me, absolute power has nothing on a well balanced car. As far as which of those cars I liked best: 996-> Impreza 2.5RS -> STi -> Supra. My personal bias is towards a car that is fun to drive, way over a "fast" car. I'm not interested in lap times, nor comparing numbers on the internet. I've driven several 986s (Boxsters for those who aren't Porsche nerds) and I can say that I found them to be extremely entertaining. Could they use more power? Sure. But I quite enjoy being able to stay in the gas a bit before I hit "go to jail" speeds.

Those two paragraphs outline why I think the 818 will face stiff competition, regardless of styling. It is going to have to be an extremely usable, extremely fun car, or else it will relegated to the race track. I seriously doubt that is what FFR is after.

Given the fact that this conversation started with the mentioning of cars like the Mazda 2, lets agree that we are talking about a car that will be driven on the street, at least a weekend/fun day type vehicle. For $15k you can be in a fully sorted FD3S (not sure why your car needs $30k to be to your liking), a well maintained 986, and all manner of M3s, S2ks, Miatas, WRXs, etc. In my opinion, any car stepping into this segment is facing tough competition. Of the cars I mentioned, only the WRX is not very attractive, so the 818 has tough competition to stack up against in that category as well. This current style is not close, IMO.

[Evan78]

It sounds to me that the looks are a higher priority for you than the majority here.

[Horhay]

That may be. I'm ok with that. :cool:

[Xusia]

Being as polite as I can, I really don't see how a Boxster is even close competition. Looks are subjective, so I'll throw that out. The 818 will have more power (assuming a WRX donor), less weight, and handle better (than a stock Boxster). So it should be as fun or more to drive (although that is also highly subjective).

If you want LESS power so you can stay on the gas more, use an Impreza donor. <-- And that's not a knock. People will probably do it and be VERY happy with the results.

The point is by any measurable performance indicator (i.e non-subjective), a Boxster just falls short.

[bbjones121]

Is there any reason that a photo couldn't be put in the first post?

[Flamshackle]

It looks like an uninspired kit car to me. That's the nicest way I can put it. I still love the chassis and donor setup but this body is a 110% no from me.

Please enlighten us of other "uninspired kit cars" that you would compare it to? And do Show images cos I certainly can't find any other cheap as chips kit cars that look HALF as good as this.

On another note I am SUPER stunned by the clarity and speed at which a small but vocal group of people are writing this design off.

Lack of perspective and maturity I think. We have seen...

One angle shot
818R version only

And a few people have packed up their bags and sulked off into cyberspace (back to NASIOC to do their trolling there no doubt)

I can understand people being upset about FFR choosing the least liked design. Especially as the communication from Dave indicated it would not be chosen.

In contrast to other kit cars it's very nice looking! And I dare anyone to find a kit car that looks half as good for close to 20K GTM excluded ;)

But now that it's the body of choice and we wait for Sema for more info

[bbjones121]

Thank you for posting pic

[crobin4]

From a form follows function standpoint, I think it appears to be a very functional design for a track car. As well, it looks easily adaptable to different rule sets,classes, and types of racing.

[jimgood]

The wheelbase is going to make it more a rally car like the Stratos than a g machine like it should be. They shouldn't be worried about comparing it to commuter cars and if they do it right they should have a spec series even bigger than their cobra one. Here's some dimensions they should be looking at. I'm not saying they should build an 800hp motor, but they should be able to fit the tires so people can experience the g forces that no other car can provide.
It IS being done right. Find someone else willing to provide you with the basis for a race car for $10k that ALSO provides the instructions for assembling it from off the shelf components. If you actually find another manufacturer that can do that, I'll bet it's not likely to be as well engineered as a FFR product. I'll bet it will cost you a fortune in time and money to get it to perform as well as a FFR product. I'll bet it will take longer to build it and require skills and tools far beyond the average Joe. I'll bet when you show up at the track, you will spend most of your time in the pits fixing crap you didn't think would break while the 818 is still out there taking laps and spanking 6 figure cars.

I was fortunate enough to drive an FFR Challenge car for a couple of years. That car, already several years old with only track miles, with about 225 hp at the wheels, weighing 2400 lbs, having a 90" wheelbase and driven by me (a chicken isht amateur) was lapping many cars that were engineered by billion dollar corporations.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

[N8Salem]

It IS being done right. Find someone else willing to provide you with the basis for a race car for $10k that ALSO provides the instructions for assembling it from off the shelf components. If you actually find another manufacturer that can do that, I'll bet it's not likely to be as well engineered as a FFR product. I'll bet it will cost you a fortune in time and money to get it to perform as well as a FFR product. I'll bet it will take longer to build it and require skills and tools far beyond the average Joe. I'll bet when you show up at the track, you will spend most of your time in the pits fixing crap you didn't think would break while the 818 is still out there taking laps and spanking 6 figure cars.

I was fortunate enough to drive an FFR Challenge car for a couple of years. That car, already several years old with only track miles, with about 225 hp at the wheels, weighing 2400 lbs, having a 90" wheelbase and driven by me (a chicken isht amateur) was lapping many cars that were engineered by billion dollar corporations.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

you really took all that time to write that and for who? I think you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

[VTX]

If they made some slight mods like Vman's latest photoshops I would move from a 6 firmly into 8 territory.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10113&d=1339134910

[leetfade]

So much animosity...

I think everyone just needs to step back and chill out. The likelihood of major changes to the core of the car are very unlikely. We probably could have influenced minor aesthetic changes had people not flown off the handle and attacked the people building this. The reality is, all we can do now is sit back and wait.

Speculate all you want, the crew at FFR have their plan and now realize the only way to meet the goals / deadline is to execute on the plan in front of them.

[shim2]

lol what a blowhard, you really took all that time to write that and for who? I think you don't have any idea what you're talking about because it's all lies.

To be completely honest, you sound like a silly teenager. In your other post you're comparing the 818 to a purpose built race car then you have the audacity to tell someone they have no idea what they're talking about. The 818 isn't anywhere near being a purpose built race car, if that's what you're looking for it's time to look somewhere else.

Anyways, the 818 has a wheelbase very similar to that of an mr2. Last time I checked, that isn't a rally car. All this speculation and criticism is growing old. Let FFR do what they do best, build amazing cars. Name one car they've produced that was lack luster and didn't live up to the hype, I can't think of one. No wonder Dave isn't giving anymore updates until SEMA.

It's a kit car. If you don't think the looks are completely perfect, buy it, do some changes make it yours. After-all isn't that the purpose of buying a kit car?

[N8Salem]

To be completely honest, you sound like a silly teenager. In your other post you're comparing the 818 to a purpose built race car then you have the audacity to tell someone they have no idea what they're talking about. The 818 isn't anywhere near being a purpose built race car, if that's what you're looking for it's time to look somewhere else.

Anyways, the 818 has a wheelbase very similar to that of an mr2. Last time I checked, that isn't a rally car. All this speculation and criticism is growing old. Let FFR do what they do best, build amazing cars. Name one car they've produced that was lack luster and didn't live up to the hype, I can't think of one. No wonder Dave isn't giving anymore updates until SEMA.

It's a kit car. If you don't think the looks are completely perfect, buy it, do some changes make it yours. After-all isn't that the purpose of buying a kit car?

It's funny how insults actually reveal who is saying them, how old are you anyway? If you knew anything about handling and the Lancia Stratos you would know how wheelbase relates to handling as it did on the NSX, but I don't mind educating like I do my own teenager. Ignorance ends up costing more anyway. If you think that the 818 is going to be a daily commuter then you should be looking else where lol. I suppose you think that the Lotus Elise isn't a purpose built race car and is a great daily driver lol With the power to weight ratio of the 818 it better be a purpose built race car or there are going to be some fatalities ;)

[RM1SepEx]

let's stop the personal attacks please...

the body is in progress I'm sure that it will be tweaked as it gets closer to real world release, they are working on the go-kart and chassis, that work isn't that far along and much tuning can be expected. Dave and his team will get BOTH aspects right for SEMA and for the rest of our builds.

On a more important note... MY DONOR IS HERE!! :cool: And as a bonus it has two drivers side doors and two tail lights I can sell... I thought they were all trashed when it was rolled!

[shim2]

let's stop the personal attacks please...

the body is in progress I'm sure that it will be tweaked as it gets closer to real world release, they are working on the go-kart and chassis, that work isn't that far along and much tuning can be expected. Dave and his team will get BOTH aspects right for SEMA and for the rest of our builds.

On a more important note... MY DONOR IS HERE!! :cool: And as a bonus it has two drivers side doors and two tail lights I can sell... I thought they were all trashed when it was rolled!

Congrats on receiving your donor. Did you get it from copart?

[RM1SepEx]

yes, took a long time to get here between pick up delays and a broken down truck. to/from Maine is not a typical travel route... He was picking up 4 cars from a town only 30 miles away to haul back to NJ.

Arrived 10AM today... Charging the battery now, will check fluids etc and see if it will start tomorrow AFTER the open house! The black front seats are perfect, it still has the 6 CD changer in it, it has one destroyed wheel (use original 16s (buy one) or buy 4 new 17s... decisions!) and I think the left lower control arm is tweaked. Looks like I have a great source of parts and it hasn't been cannibalized by the boneyard pickers. Has aftermarket air intake and cone filter, not sure about the rest just yet.

[jimgood]

lol what a blowhard, you really took all that time to write that and for who? I think you don't have any idea what you're talking about because it's all lies.
Point out one lie in what I said. The only thing I said that could reasonably be called a lie is that I lapped cars that were engineered by billion dollar corporations. Fine. I can't prove that statement and I won't ask you to take my word for it.

You were the one that made an issue out of the wheelbase and how it needs to be longer. The current FFR Challenge car achieves peak cornering loads north of 1g with a 90" wheelbase. And it does it on 255 width tires. I'm pretty sure the 818 with a 95" wheelbase will do just fine.

[N8Salem]

Ok Ok so the cat is out of the proverbial bag... And it seems that not many here on this forum like cats...

There has definately been miscommunication and miss matched expectations that have brought things to a head.
Many have expressed feeling disappointed about this design (myself included, I was thinking for sure Rodney or Xavier's cars would be first up)
As we followed along in this forum we got attached to certain designs and we all had our personal fav's. If your anything like me you have been dreaming of how they would look in our garages.
But now we have the concrete reality of what it looks like and it didnt match up to the expectations of many.

BUT a very important question to ask you is the one of time and objectivity.

Please rate Jim's reworked design out of 10 on this following scale

10= The most awesome Looking car you have ever been graced to lay your eyes upon.
1= The ugliest beaten up heinous excuse for transport you have had the misfortune of being exposed to.

Try and think of all the other comparable cars in this weight/size ect. I would contend that there are not many as visually impressive as this one. Of course this will require some objectivity. For some this has to be found, dragged out from under the bed, dusted of and had the carby cleaned out.

The general public iv asked already have given the 818 design an average of 6.8 out of 10! which is not bad really.

It's grown on me today even to the point i could see it in my shed! so I am looking forward to more development and images to come :~)

Now for the time aspect.
Remember how many cars you didn't like when you first saw them on a car magazine cover when they were first released?
How many of them grew on you over time/ after seeing them in the flesh?

I think the vocal dislikes are more to do with the design selection process and communication breakdown than the actual car design itself.
If we were not to have seen the other designs and potentials we would I believe embrace this as a stunning option with much excitement about its release.

My 2c over...

http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/818poster.jpg

Well since no one else is saying anything, I will. Let's keep posts on topic and no personal attacks on opinions that everyone will have. If you don't like someone's opinion no need to take issue with it in an off topic post and if it's that important to you send a PM. Nobody wants flaming. If you have something off topic then start your own thread and see if anyone is interested instead of hijacking someone elses.

[flynntuna]

agreed civility is the grease of society.

[mattster03]

The current average vote is a 6.25 that's about what I feel. Take away all of the fancy graphics & spoiler and I would agree that the car is difficult to get excited about. I think that a redesign of the front end could make a huge impact on the overall look of the car. I do know that the original design for the GTM had a rear design that was changed due to feedback and that made the car look 10X better. I honestly hope that FFR hears the same concerns about the front end of the 818 and gives it another shot.

[Flamshackle]

The current average vote is a 6.25 that's about what I feel..

That 6.25 average is here in the eye of the storm.

Out in public with my online Facebook rating of it and asking general public it's netting just over 7 now...

And that is HIGH if you imagine the worlds greatest (and most expensive) supercars are between 8-10

[mattster03]

That 6.25 average is here in the eye of the storm.

Out in public with my online Facebook rating of it and asking general public it's netting just over 7 now...

And that is HIGH if you imagine the worlds greatest (and most expensive) supercars are between 8-10

Did you use the same scale that you posted here or did you just say, "rate this 1-10"... big difference. Trying to sound as positive as possible, I would argue that if the car community sees it as a 6.25 and the general public sees it as a 7 that's not setting anyone's hair on fire. Post a picture of the GTM on your Facebook and I bet you would get all 9's and 10's.

[Flamshackle]

Did you use the same scale that you posted here or did you just say, "rate this 1-10"... big difference. Trying to sound as positive as possible, I would argue that if the car community sees it as a 6.25 and the general public sees it as a 7 that's not setting anyone's hair on fire. Post a picture of the GTM on your Facebook and I bet you would get all 9's and 10's.

Your right my other polls are just 1-10. I would argue though that this forum is not a good reflection of the "car community"

What I am surprised at is that you seem down on the fact it's polling between 6-7 here... That's an overwhelmingly positive result!

It's definately been received as a hot looking car by EVERYONE in the real "car community" of which I'm a paid up member of here in canterbury New Zealand.

[saiven]

WOW.. Where do I begin...
So... i loved loved loved xabier's design... WOW!!!!

this design.. isnt proportioned right... looks akward and doesnt flow...
If you stare at it the front looks like it belongs on a Viper or something it looks like from the front of the door on it belongs to a different car all together...
Maybe when you release the coupe version it will flow with the front better..
I believe its a cool car, but its very forgettable... It reminds me of a grownup go cart you see at those tracks... Definitely not a drive on the road car.
The rear end looks good from the back view.. but the front makes me cry... I seriously was getting money ready to buy one... but it looks awkward, definitely not something you would pick a hot girl up in...
I might look into a coupe or targa version. But gotta change the front end. Or sell the kit without a body so someone can make their own LOL BUt seriously.
I know I am being really critical of the design. I am an Aerospace Engineer. but that doesn't mean crap. beauty is something that people notice and Fall in love with. Oddities can get votes but will not stand the test of time. This is awkward looking.
Please. Follow the greats that you replicate. Those are TIMELESS. Make this car something that people dont go WOW cool.
Make this a car that people go ...................... because they cant stop looking at it. body design is the most important part of any car you see on the real road.
its what haunts our dreams and we wish we could own what we just saw drive past us.

for someone wanting a go cart for the track only this will be great as it is. but really.. out of all the buyers out there the percentage that want someone they can show off is WAY higher.

I feel like the score is where it is because its neat.
if you go to a rate my picture site everyone there is 6 and 7.
but you dont want those people....
but everyone acknowledges the gorgeous people and they always have high marks... why is this... because we dont think its hideousness.... just not what we really want...

the GTM hood vents on this car look.... kinda weird... and takes away from its design.

Sorry about my rant... I have been following this project since the beginning, when i saw the popularity of xabiers design and the poles of people who wanted some kind of a top i couldn't have been more excited.
and i saw that excitement of the people on the forums.

I know I am really critical but thats because i seriously love your cars.
The GT Coupe was on my list for so long till i saw this build. I feel you all are in a position right now to make a real change.
I feel like if your Body looks amazing it will be a kit people buy to put electric motors in, people track it and even everyday car it. People will find a way to get it if it looks good.

please find that connection that the greats have, find that look that isnt ODD to become popular, isnt bland, but is something people cant help but to analyze and lust after it.
I know you can do it.

You all are the best Kit car company out there!
truly!

I know you cant satisfy everyone, but i know you can make something that makes most people go Speechless over how amazing it looks and isnt average but truly great!

I know you all can deliver amazing things

Thank you all for listening to my rant, I say it because i love you all.
we have the best people in this community, we can deliver the best!
:)

[saiven]

I agree just something like VMANS Photoshop make it look better definitely!

[BrandonDrums]

I don't know why so many people seem dissapointed. I think it looks great. The reduced wheel arch over the front certainly gave it a sleeker look, the front end is way better than the original Jim design.

heck, it's really quite close to Xabier's design. Vman's certainly made some improvements but others might think it looks too much like a catfish like they used to say of Xabier's design.

The real story here, if you saw the email with the video about the MP4-12C and the GTM where they had the gokart of the 818 at the end....they announced they have 3 designs planned...

3 designs folks, something for everyone.