Mazda SkyActiv-D: One drivetrain for hyper-miler and sports car!

[projectrally]

Okay, so it's not officially out yet in the US, and I have no idea about the size or packaging constraints, so this is purely hypothetical. Then again, the 818 doesn't really exist yet, aside from a single mule, so everything on this forum is hypothetical.

To get on with it, Mazda is sellling it's new 2.2L turbo diesel SkyActiv drivetrain in other markets in the Mazda3 and CX-5, and it's going to be available in the 2013 Mazda6 when that goes on sale later this year. For the US, Mazda has already officially stated that it is coming stateside in something by early 2013. With the exception of the Miata, everything Mazda makes is FWD (even the SUVs offer it in base models), so the SkyActiv-D will definitely be available mated to their new FWD 6MT transmission and the even cooler tech SkyActiv Drive 6AT that has a torque converter for startup, and switches to a DCT above 5MPH for the best of both worlds. Throw in some paddle shifters, and we've got ourselves a party.

In other markets, this drivetrain is getting reviewed really well. In the CX5, which is a 3100lb crossover in FWD trim, the 2.2 turbo diesel is good for 178hp, 310 lb-ft, and 51 MPG. Power? Check. Economy? Check? Fantastic Mazda gearbox? Check...

Dave, I know you're still considering drivetrains for the hyper-miler. This motor should me available stateside right around SEMA, so I think it might be worth a look! If you're making changes to the chassis to accommodate a transverse mounted Ecoboost or TDI motor anyway, why not wait until you can at least get a chance to size-up one of these motors over and get some dimensional information?

[Smitty911]

One word - COST.

I like the idea but finding those motors is going to be tough for a couple years. The TDI has been out for a while and the Ecoboost is coming on line as we speak. The Ecoboost will be in the same situation for some time as well, cost prohibitive.

Smitty

[Xusia]

Are you talking about a specific Ecoboost engine? I was under the improession Ecoboost engines have been in wide use for years...

[projectrally]

Ecoboost started selling in the US with the V6 in the Taurus SHO and the Truck/SUV market. There is a 2.0 ecoboost on the way for the 2013 Fusion, Escape, and Focus ST. There is also a 1.6 rumored to be heading our way for the Fiesta ST whenever that arrives. And there's been a lot of talk about a 1.0L 3-cylinder ecoboost as the base engine for the next generation Fiesta. So small displacement ecoboost is coming, but it's not here yet.

As for the cost, you're absolutely right. It will be expensive. But it's for the hyper-miler, and that's a very different buyer. The people who buy into electric cars and hybrids have a lot of very legitimate reasons for buying them, but saving money is rarely one of them. It may seem like that going in, but the premium to own a hybrid or electric vs. its petrol powered contemporaries is rarely achievable in the normal life cycle of a vehicle. People buy/build fuel efficient vehicles to save the planet, not their money. Compare the $33,000 Nissan Leaf vs. vehicles like the Ford Focus or Chevy Cruze, both of which get around 38MPG and can be had for $15,000 less than the Leaf. Another fun example - check out the battery powered Miata in last month's Grassroots Motorsports. The guy spent $8000 converting his Miata to electric power, added 1000 pounds to the car, ruined its driving dynamics, and gave it a range of 40 miles. If he's comfortably driving less than 40 miles a day, $8000 would buy him six years worth of 87 octane...

If the SkyActiv Diesel can be made to fit in the 818Eco, it certainly wouldn't be a $15,000 built. But Dave hasn't promised the other variants of the 818 would hit that target price, and he's certainly not planning on a "budget" build going with either the TDI or the Ecoboost. If you were building a crate motor car, the Ecoboost would probably be the cheapest option - diesel motors are usually more expensive. But if you were someone who cared about the car's driving dynamics as well as its fuel economy, a strong, efficient diesel would be a great way to go. On paper, anyway, the Mazda has better specs than the VW motor. And all things being equal, Mazda makes incredibly reliable cars. VW...not so much.

[Nelff]

One of the things that I think I remember in another post was Ford engineers have been talking to Dave about the EcoBoost engines. Add to that the fact that Ford and Ford Racing put together crate engines with harnesses for street rod and street car update applications, you have the possibility that Ford and Ford Racing will put together an engine package for the 818. How cool it that!!

[Smitty911]

One of the things that I think I remember in another post was Ford engineers have been talking to Dave about the EcoBoost engines. Add to that the fact that Ford and Ford Racing put together crate engines with harnesses for street rod and street car update applications, you have the possibility that Ford and Ford Racing will put together an engine package for the 818. How cool it that!!

Now that might be alot more intresting.

Projectrally,

Yes, I was thinking about the newer releases that you mentioned. Your right, some people will spend alot of money for less performance. 40 Mile range, might as well own a bike and peddle around. ;)

Smitty

[Sebxb]

I'm 90% sure I read somewhere that the Skyactiv-D was going to be offered in the 2013 CX-5 here in Canada.

But IMHO, because of price and availability of donors, why not use the Subaru boxer diesel? No change to the 818, just swap engine/wiring/ecm. Pretty sure the trannies are also the same. Less power but more simple.

One guy in Nashville imports those Subaru Boxer diesel and related parts. Engines are 5750$ though...no wiring and ECM. They seem new though. Maybe we can get those JDM importers to start looking for good used ones for us.

http://www.boxeer.com/

Anyways, Mazda, Ford, VW or Subaru, I don't see either being cheap if using the donor approach like the original 818 because of price and availability.

But the Subaru diesel makes more sense to me. What happens if Factory Five has a partnership with Ford for engines? Will I have to source an Impreza for all the suspension parts/hinges/brakes/etc... THEN buy the Ford engine which will need custom parts to mate with the Subaru stuff? What about the electronics?

So many variables which always brings me back to the Subaru Boxer diesel path.

Buy an impreza with a blown engine, build an 818 with it but replace the blown engine with the boxer-D.

My 2 cents!

[StatGSR]

In the CX5, which is a 3100lb crossover in FWD trim, the 2.2 turbo diesel is good for 178hp, 310 lb-ft, and 51 MPG. Power? Check. Economy?

don't forget that there is more volume in an imperial gallon compared to a US gallon, that 51mpg is likely based on the imperial gallon (can't say for sure cause i dont know your source)

The imperial (UK) gallon = 4.54609 L

The US gallon = 3.785411784 L

the mpg would drop to about 42MPG stateside, not that that is bad, just not as amazing.

[Xusia]

Ecoboost started selling in the US with the V6 in the Taurus SHO and the Truck/SUV market. There is a 2.0 ecoboost on the way for the 2013 Fusion, Escape, and Focus ST. There is also a 1.6 rumored to be heading our way for the Fiesta ST whenever that arrives. And there's been a lot of talk about a 1.0L 3-cylinder ecoboost as the base engine for the next generation Fiesta. So small displacement ecoboost is coming, but it's not here yet.

As for the cost, you're absolutely right. It will be expensive. But it's for the hyper-miler, and that's a very different buyer. The people who buy into electric cars and hybrids have a lot of very legitimate reasons for buying them, but saving money is rarely one of them. It may seem like that going in, but the premium to own a hybrid or electric vs. its petrol powered contemporaries is rarely achievable in the normal life cycle of a vehicle. People buy/build fuel efficient vehicles to save the planet, not their money. Compare the $33,000 Nissan Leaf vs. vehicles like the Ford Focus or Chevy Cruze, both of which get around 38MPG and can be had for $15,000 less than the Leaf. Another fun example - check out the battery powered Miata in last month's Grassroots Motorsports. The guy spent $8000 converting his Miata to electric power, added 1000 pounds to the car, ruined its driving dynamics, and gave it a range of 40 miles. If he's comfortably driving less than 40 miles a day, $8000 would buy him six years worth of 87 octane...

If the SkyActiv Diesel can be made to fit in the 818Eco, it certainly wouldn't be a $15,000 built. But Dave hasn't promised the other variants of the 818 would hit that target price, and he's certainly not planning on a "budget" build going with either the TDI or the Ecoboost. If you were building a crate motor car, the Ecoboost would probably be the cheapest option - diesel motors are usually more expensive. But if you were someone who cared about the car's driving dynamics as well as its fuel economy, a strong, efficient diesel would be a great way to go. On paper, anyway, the Mazda has better specs than the VW motor. And all things being equal, Mazda makes incredibly reliable cars. VW...not so much.

I think you make a good - and well articulated - point. :)

[projectrally]

don't forget that there is more volume in an imperial gallon compared to a US gallon, that 51mpg is likely based on the imperial gallon (can't say for sure cause i dont know your source)

The imperial (UK) gallon = 4.54609 L

The US gallon = 3.785411784 L

the mpg would drop to about 42MPG stateside, not that that is bad, just not as amazing.

The article I was reading said 62 MPG imperial, or 51 MPG US. Wikipedia for the CX-5 says the same thing. Not that Wikipedia is a reliable source of information, but until it comes stateside and gets a proper EPA mileage test, I'm going to take it as optimistic but hopeful. Just imagine if that's true....wow.

Also, like Ford, Mazda has a strong commitment to racing. They sell a lot of crate motors and have full support. We just don't hear about it as much because it's usually just new motors for Mazda vehicles, and their 4-bangers aren't sought after by the hotrod and engine swap communities.

Oh, this just happened too: http://www.autoblog.com/2012/06/04/mazda-to-run-skyactiv-d-diesel-engine-in-2013-grand-am-gx-class/

[Xusia]

Also, like Ford, Mazda has a strong commitment to racing. They sell a lot of crate motors and have full support. We just don't hear about it as much because it's usually just new motors for Mazda vehicles, and their 4-bangers aren't sought after by the hotrod and engine swap communities.

Ford and Mazda have had a long standing relationship (platform sharing, technology sharing, etc.), so some similarities should come as no surprise.

[Oppenheimer]

As for the cost, you're absolutely right. It will be expensive. But it's for the hyper-miler, and that's a very different buyer. The people who buy into electric cars and hybrids have a lot of very legitimate reasons for buying them, but saving money is rarely one of them. It may seem like that going in, but the premium to own a hybrid or electric vs. its petrol powered contemporaries is rarely achievable in the normal life cycle of a vehicle. People buy/build fuel efficient vehicles to save the planet, not their money. Compare the $33,000 Nissan Leaf vs. vehicles like the Ford Focus or Chevy Cruze, both of which get around 38MPG and can be had for $15,000 less than the Leaf. Another fun example - check out the battery powered Miata in last month's Grassroots Motorsports. The guy spent $8000 converting his Miata to electric power, added 1000 pounds to the car, ruined its driving dynamics, and gave it a range of 40 miles. If he's comfortably driving less than 40 miles a day, $8000 would buy him six years worth of 87 octane...

I'd like to offer another persepctive. I would love to buy a more fuel efficient, yet still very fun car. But it has to be cheap to buy. Real cheap. So the idea of an 818, with VW TDi power, has a lot of appeal to me. I can buy a donor drivetrain, and an 818 kit (and some donor Subie parts), and have a serious kick arse sportscar, that gets incredible mileage, that I could actually afford to buy.

Exotic looks, handles like a Lotus, fast as some Porsche's, better mileage than a Prius. I could afford a TDi 818. An ecoboost crate motor or new Mazda drivetrain 818? no way.

I think its a great idea to offer ecoboost crate or even this new Mazda as 818 options, but I think the TDi is a must. I think there is a much larger untapped market for DIY (and cheap) high mileage component cars than there is for high $ of same.

[projectrally]

That is a very valid point, and I completely agree. I'd love to have the Mazda drivetrain, but I'd absolutely say yes to a tdi with the dsg.

[Nuul]

I think its a great idea to offer ecoboost crate or even this new Mazda as 818 options, but I think the TDi is a must. I think there is a much larger untapped market for DIY (and cheap) high mileage component cars than there is for high $ of same.

TDI engines are still pretty expensive. I was checking prices on the web recently and was shocked at how expensive they can be...as in JDM STI expensive. Granted, I'm comparing a 50K used engine to a re-manufactured one but still. How much do you think a Mazda crate engine would run? It's way outside of my price range but still fun to think about.