A Newbie and the 818

[NewFatMike]

Hi, all!

This looks like a really great community, and I've been learning a lot just by reading through all the threads in this subforum, and I thought I would introduce myself and ask a few questions

I'm a bit of a DIY'er, and have experience changing my own oil, brake pads, CV axles, disassembling/reassembling door panels and doing some work like that on my current car ('97 Civic DX, if you're curious), and I've heard only cursory summaries that it can be "anywhere from extremely difficult to extremely easy" which doesn't exactly provide good information. I'm thinking about attending the build school if I can move back to the Chicago area (anyone have any experience with that?), and I have a few buddies in the area who are mechanics who would be able to help out.

I also was wondering about the spatial dimensions of an automatic transmission versus a manual one (specifically if an automatic would fit in this kit based on our best available information). I would love to drive a manual, but my parents never taught me how, so I can't get into first without forcibly dismantling the motor mount, so it's a cost and safety issue.

I'm interested in this kit for a lot of the reasons why you guys are: building your own one-of-a-kind vehicle sounds like one of the most special things a tinkerer can do, this kit is economically priced, and it looks like the end product is going to be a super fun car. I'm learning a lot just by reading what y'all are posting. I'll try to pay it back where I can!

[jimgood]

One of the great things about the Factory Five kits is that, if you stick to the basics (i.e. building the kit as designed) it should be pretty straightforward. There might be fitment issues here and there, but nothing that can't be overcome. Another other great thing is that you're working with a tube frame and fiberglass so modifications are relatively easy.

[NonProfit]

If you can learn to build a car, you can lean to drive it.

If you simply prefer an automatic, that's cool, but don't be in fear of driving a stick.

[Etos]

Fitting an auto will be hard. It extends further out then a 5 speed(I think the same length as an STi 6 speed). Also I'm not sure what work would be involved with making it 2wd.

Like someone else said, if you can learn to build a car you should learn how to drive it. MT is not hard to learn at all and is very rewarding. I have taught many many people how to drive MT and all walks of life are able to do it.

[riptide motorsport]

Welcome!!!

[NewFatMike]

Fitting an auto will be hard. It extends further out then a 5 speed(I think the same length as an STi 6 speed). Also I'm not sure what work would be involved with making it 2wd.

Like someone else said, if you can learn to build a car you should learn how to drive it. MT is not hard to learn at all and is very rewarding. I have taught many many people how to drive MT and all walks of life are able to do it.

I've gotten some time at home to get the hang of it, I do try to practice when I can. It's hard finding anyone with a manual these days =^/

Thanks for the info on dimensions!

[Smitty911]

I've gotten some time at home to get the hang of it, I do try to practice when I can. It's hard finding anyone with a manual these days =^/

Thanks for the info on dimensions!

Best piece of advice I can offer.

1. Empty large parking lot, early in the morning.
2. Fully charged battery, in case you stall a lot.
3. Someone you trust, that won't make you more nervous.

A. Get in Drivers seat.
B. Hold down Clutch Pedal (Far Left one), put car in first gear - Upper left usually.
C. Start Car.
D. Hold down clutch pedal (Far Left one), keep your foot OFF the gas (place it by the seat if you need to.)
E. Check for other traffic (I know your in a empty parking lot)
F. Slowly raise your foot off the clutch, this engages the clutch and will start the car rolling. Doing it slowly and not using ANY gas, will allow you to feel where the clutch actually engages. If you stall repeat the above.

Now once you have mastered getting the car rolling with the clutch fully engaged in First gear. Do it in second, NO GAS.

You should be able to do that in a short amount of time and than while it's still quite out, you can drive around town.

Just my thoughts,

Smitty

[projectrally]

NewFatMike,

Nobody in my family ever taught me to drive stick either. Everybody had big trucks and SUVs in farm country where I lived, so manual transmissions were few and far between. I made it the whole way through college without ever really getting access to a manual transmission, so when I got my first job out of school and it was time to buy a car, I went out and bought a Subaru 2.5RS (that was the hottest Suby in the States at that time) with a manual transmission. I had a practical understanding of how to work a manual transmission, but nearly no experience at all. To make things even more interesting, I bought the car from a dealer 3 hours away, drove my POS Neon there on its last legs, got into my new car and tried to figure out how to make the 160 mile trip home. I stalled it half dozen times getting out of the dealer lot, but by the time I made it home I was holding my own. Three weeks later, it was all muscle memory and it seemed as natural as anything.

The point is, don't let your lack of knowledge for how to shift scare you off. A lot of people fear manual transmissions for this same reason. My wife did, and she was deathly afraid to learn. When I finally convinced her she needed to so we could take our Miata on a road trip, she picked it up in a day.

Even more importantly, while there are a lot of very good automatic transmissions out there, they aren't available in a WRX. All automatic WRXs in the US came with a terrible 4-speed gearbox that was a complete dog. Horrible gearing, bad shift logic - the only thing it was good at was robbing you of enjoying the driving experience available in a WRX. But the WRX was at least a relatively practical car for every day life, so you could always make the case for someone buying the 4EAT. The 818 is painfully impractical, and with its lack of trunk and real weather-proofing will not be a year-round daily driver for more than a handful of very hardcore purists (this coming from a guy who has daily driven Miatas 12 months a year for the past 5 years). It's not a car, it's a toy designed for pure driving delight. There'll be no quicker way to sap all of that driving delight than by using Subaru's terrible automatic transmission...

[PhyrraM]

Pre-'96 Subarus were available with a FWD auto transmission - no mods required for RWD operation in an 818. While not an officially supported donors, the differences are going to be few and easily overcome (especially with the eventual help coming from these forums). Even though it may be a tad larger, I can't imagine it won't fit with only a few small chassis mods (at the most).

While I can't comment on the gearing or the reaction in the newer autos, I can say the autos on my old '93 Turbo Legacy (torquier than a WRX) wasn't bad. Also, the low weight of the 818 can mask alot of gearbox deficiencies.

[NewFatMike]

NewFatMike,

Nobody in my family ever taught me to drive stick either. Everybody had big trucks and SUVs in farm country where I lived, so manual transmissions were few and far between. I made it the whole way through college without ever really getting access to a manual transmission, so when I got my first job out of school and it was time to buy a car, I went out and bought a Subaru 2.5RS (that was the hottest Suby in the States at that time) with a manual transmission. I had a practical understanding of how to work a manual transmission, but nearly no experience at all. To make things even more interesting, I bought the car from a dealer 3 hours away, drove my POS Neon there on its last legs, got into my new car and tried to figure out how to make the 160 mile trip home. I stalled it half dozen times getting out of the dealer lot, but by the time I made it home I was holding my own. Three weeks later, it was all muscle memory and it seemed as natural as anything.

The point is, don't let your lack of knowledge for how to shift scare you off. A lot of people fear manual transmissions for this same reason. My wife did, and she was deathly afraid to learn. When I finally convinced her she needed to so we could take our Miata on a road trip, she picked it up in a day.

Even more importantly, while there are a lot of very good automatic transmissions out there, they aren't available in a WRX. All automatic WRXs in the US came with a terrible 4-speed gearbox that was a complete dog. Horrible gearing, bad shift logic - the only thing it was good at was robbing you of enjoying the driving experience available in a WRX. But the WRX was at least a relatively practical car for every day life, so you could always make the case for someone buying the 4EAT. The 818 is painfully impractical, and with its lack of trunk and real weather-proofing will not be a year-round daily driver for more than a handful of very hardcore purists (this coming from a guy who has daily driven Miatas 12 months a year for the past 5 years). It's not a car, it's a toy designed for pure driving delight. There'll be no quicker way to sap all of that driving delight than by using Subaru's terrible automatic transmission...

Awesome quote! I'll find a day and a friend with a manual to pick it up!

Smitty, one of the things I was always concerned about was never knowing where the clutch engaged, I'll start with that!

Phyrra, you always seem to know just the right things people look for about Subarus on this forum, but I think I've been given a good shot of bravery.

There's some talk on the other forums about HVAC systems, maybe the additional curb weight for some creature comforts in colder climes will be worth it for a DD. I'll be seeing you guys over there!

[Nuul]

F. Slowly raise your foot off the clutch, this engages the clutch and will start the car rolling. Doing it slowly and not using ANY gas, will allow you to feel where the clutch actually engages. If you stall repeat the above.

This is the most important thing to grasp in my opinion. Knowing where your friction point is helps a lot. It's the key thing to being able to transition from a red to green light on a hill when some idiot pulls right on your bumper. Don't bother inching forward when it's red either, they will just pull up further.

[shim2]

This is the most important thing to grasp in my opinion. Knowing where your friction point is helps a lot. It's the key thing to being able to transition from a red to green light on a hill when some idiot pulls right on your bumper. Don't bother inching forward when it's red either, they will just pull up further.

Can't be anymore true.

[Smitty911]

Can't be anymore true.

Hold the brake and put the car in reverse without looking in the rear view mirror. I've had a few people see the White Lights come on and back up. Just remember to put it back into first before the light changes. ;)

Smitty

[David Budd]

I am also a newbie to this FF 818 discussion. I am sure that htis question must have been asked before now and consequently has already been answered. However, since I do not know the answer or know where to find it, I will ask again. There are multitudes of Subaru Wagons on the road, many in fairly good condition, usually not driven nearly as hard as the WRX and STI sedans and coupes. Can any of the Legacy and Forrester models be used as parts sources for the upcoming 818 kit? If not, why not?
David Budd

[leetfade]

The WRX is a performance built car which means different suspension, brakes, etc. The Legacy is a family sedan (except the GT which shares drive train components with the STi) and the Forrester is a.. well.. I have no idea. Crossover, SUV, oversized wagon.. w/e you want to call it!

You may be able to piece some parts between the cars but the WRX is likely the only single donor car which is the intent by FFR.

[Niburu]

the Forester is a rebodied Impreza

[NonProfit]

Can any of the Legacy and Forrester models be used as parts sources for the upcoming 818 kit?

The 2002-2007 base Impreza as well as the WRX (but not the STI) are "single donor" meaning one car + one kit = a complete 818. Without a doubt, some parts from Legacys and Forresters will fit, however before the kit is released we're all just guessing as to just what those will be. My understanding is any EJ with a manual trans should work, although you may need to acquire some parts piecemeal if you stray from the approved source. http://www.factoryfive.com/kits/project-818/what-you-need/ lists what parts are being used on the prototype.

[PhyrraM]

The "difference" between a Forester and Impreza is springs, strut length, and a "body lift" (not really, but helps to think that way). All of those are replaced in the 818 anyways. The actual suspension links and arms that FFR seems to be reusing are all basically the same.

The history of the prefered donor chassis (the '02-'07 Impreza):

First gen Legacy ('89-'94) Introduces the EJ engine series and the new corporate chassis.

minor upgrades > First gen Impreza ('92-'01) (first gen Legacy recieves updates with "facelifted" '92-'94 models.

minor upgrades > Second gen Legacy ('95-'99)

parallel development off the Impreza mid-cycle update > First gen Forrester ('97-'02) (Impreza recieves facelift for '98-'01)

major bodyshell rigidity update, minor suspension updates > Second gen "prefered donor" Impreza ('02 - '07)
Second gen Forester ('03-'08) also gets these updates.


The third gen Legacy ('00-'04, Baja) was a hybrid. It was still basically on the same corporate chassis, but the twin parrallel link rear suspension was replacd with a multilink. They could make OK donors if you source the rear suspension independantly. The Forth gen Legacy ('05-'09) was an entirely new chassis and not sutable as a single donor. The Third gen Impreza ('08+) and Forester ('09+) inherited a version of this chassis, knocking it out of donor contention too.

[leetfade]

Well there ya go! I was under the impression there was more differences between the Impreza and the actual WRX as well. The Impreza in base trim is just a family sedan as well.