Newest go-cart observations

[PhyrraM]

Picture is here:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=237490163018199&set=a.237488856351663.38469.106624332771450&type=3&theater


Observations, not critiques.


Stock seats. The donor must have been a WRX TR model as I beleive that's the only trim (in '06) that had the separate headrests.

Coolant tubes run outside of frame. Looks like hot and cold on seperate sides.

Long shifter cables that run forward from the shifter and then around the frame and finally to the back of the transmission.

Fuel tank behind the seats as evidenced by the large silver filler cap. (critique: Put it on the passenger side like all proper Subarus!)

Long extension spacing the turbo away from the factory downpipe. They normally bolt together. I'm guessing that this is a temporary heat management solution so the gocart can be driven without melting close-to-motor stuff. A final exhaust will come with a final body.

Factory instrument cluster looks like it's just sitting on the frame waiting for a fiberglass dash to call home.

Picture is too dark and too low resolution to check for H6 compatability (likely as intended)

So far, I don't see anything that would exclude most other Subarus as donors. A cable clutch being the biggest hurdle for older cars.

[shim2]

Looks good so far. Can't wait for some official photos. Lotta wiring but that's expected for ODBII. I observed pretty much everything you did there. I like how they routed the coolant pipes, on my old mk2 mr2 it ran down with fuel tank.

[BrandonDrums]

Picture is here:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=237490163018199&set=a.237488856351663.38469.106624332771450&type=3&theater


Observations, not critiques.


Stock seats. The donor must have been a WRX TR model as I beleive that's the only trim (in '06) that had the separate headrests.

Coolant tubes run outside of frame. Looks like hot and cold on seperate sides.

Long shifter cables that run forward from the shifter and then around the frame and finally to the back of the transmission.

Fuel tank behind the seats as evidenced by the large silver filler cap. (critique: Put it on the passenger side like all proper Subarus!)

Long extension spacing the turbo away from the factory downpipe. They normally bolt together. I'm guessing that this is a temporary heat management solution so the gocart can be driven without melting close-to-motor stuff. A final exhaust will come with a final body.

Factory instrument cluster looks like it's just sitting on the frame waiting for a fiberglass dash to call home.

Picture is too dark and too low resolution to check for H6 compatability (likely as intended)

So far, I don't see anything that would exclude most other Subarus as donors. A cable clutch being the biggest hurdle for older cars.

It's hard to tell but I don't think the turbo has been moved from the stock location. I think that bracket looking contraption that's about midway down where the stock downpipe would be is simply the doughnut-style gasket connector that allows you to move the pipe around as found on the 65 roadsters. Pic of that same bracket on a 65 roadster seen below.

Also, it appears they have tilted the drivetrain forward a good bit, probably in an attempt to lower the cog a good bit by getting the engine closer to the ground. Looks effective!

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b71/jpearl_/000_0189.jpg

[Kalstar]

Unlike the GTM, this car could be the future of the challenger series race cars. The GTM has issues to prevent it from being a viable option but from the look and structure of the 818, it looks like the future car of that series.

[PhyrraM]

I worded a bit odd, I guess.

The turbo is in the stock location. Instead of bolting the downpipe directly to the turbo (as is OEM) the downpipe is spaced back by a horizontal fabrication/tube. At least that's what it looks like to me.

[riptide motorsport]

Looks very nicely done!

[BrandonDrums]

I worded a bit odd, I guess.

The turbo is in the stock location. Instead of bolting the downpipe directly to the turbo (as is OEM) the downpipe is spaced back by a horizontal fabrication/tube. At least that's what it looks like to me.

Ahh yes, I believe you're exactly right with that...Well, there is a spacing but I don't believe that's the factory downpipe though.

[shinn497]

It is the factory downpipe. One of the people mentioned it after talking to jim.

[kach22i]

Stock seats. The donor must have been a WRX TR model as I beleive that's the only trim (in '06) that had the separate headrests.

My observation:
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/Template-Cassis-more-than-rolling.jpg

[shim2]

I found these on the NE Subaru forums

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g297/sh8kspeer/1336867640.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g297/sh8kspeer/1336867674.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g297/sh8kspeer/1336867669.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g297/sh8kspeer/1336867671.jpg

[StatGSR]

It is the factory downpipe. One of the people mentioned it after talking to jim.

it is a factory downpipe, but it still has an extension on it moving it further from the turbo. it is clearly seen in this picture.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b175/MrHorhay/362cc58c.jpg

[wallace18]

What size is the person you show seated?

[shim2]

There are some pretty nice photos on the NE Subaru forums, I posted image links but said my post would need moderator approval.

http://www.newenglandsubarus.com/forums/showpost.php?p=656877&postcount=11

[StatGSR]

Long extension spacing the turbo away from the factory downpipe. They normally bolt together. I'm guessing that this is a temporary heat management solution so the gocart can be driven without melting close-to-motor stuff. A final exhaust will come with a final body.


it actually looks like it is spaced just so it can clear part of the frame for the suspension.

on the note of exhaust though, its interesting to think about the massive routing differences that might exist between turbo and none turbo donors, since it would be odd (although possible) to route the exhaust up over the axle from an NA header.

[shim2]

There are some nice images on the NE Subaru forum. I tried to post the image links here but it won't let me. They show just about every angle of the car from only a few feet away.

[flytosail]

Do you have a link to those photos?

[Nuul]

Did they start the engine? I'm curious what the exhaust note is going to sound like out of such a short pipe.

[Sebxb]

Sorry for not introducing myself... this is my first post but anyways... here are the pics:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y31/forkboy442/1336867677.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y31/forkboy442/1336867674.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y31/forkboy442/1336867671.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y31/forkboy442/1336867669.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y31/forkboy442/1336867640.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y31/forkboy442/1336867626.jpg

[shim2]

Do you have a link to those photos?

Every time I post the link it deletes my post. Maybe because I don't have enough posts.

[shim2]

newenglandsubarus./forums/showpost.php?p=656877&postcount=11

Just throw www. in front of that and a com after the dot

*Sorry about the double post.

[NonProfit]

Thanks for the link shim2.

972997309731973297339734

Here is the original post (http://www.newenglandsubarus.com/forums/showpost.php?p=656877&postcount=11).

[David Hodgkins]

re: Moderated posts

Our spam program catches a lot of junk posts working the way it does but unfortunately we have to approve some posts from new guys. Once you get past the first 10 or so you're good to go.

I've released all the moderated posts and check several times a day to see what needs to be released. You can PM me at anytime if you feel a post needs to be released from moderation.

:)

[kach22i]

Several aspects of the original template which caused me (and others) grief seemed to have been addressed.

1. Radiator height/angle has been lowered.

2. Rear overhang is less now, more realistic.

3. Stock seats and floor pan doing their best minimize overall height.

4. Even the roll bar has been improved to what appears to be a lower profile.

5. Intercooler, fuel tank and other tech issues appear to have been resolved.

The cake appears to be baked now, and the frosting (body) is eagerly awaited.:cool:

[PhyrraM]

More observations:

The shifter looks to be an OEM part from a non-Subaru.

The exhaust extension is clearly used to avoid the suspension.

OEM airbox is crammed above the right rear tire. I assume a frame revision will eventually fix this.

OEM radiator brackets, as expected.

Thee is no reason for the frame extension in front of the radiator except for a tilt-up front clip?

Still can't quite see answers to the fuel tank or H6 questions.

Battery up front, as evidenced by the red cable to the starter.

[Nuul]

Intercooler issues appear to have been resolved.

This was one of the concerns I had. TMIC aren't that efficient to begin with, I was worried their wouldn't be enough airflow to it.

[shim2]

I'm pretty sure that's the battery in front of the brake master. I see a lot of wiring, I'm assuming most of it is factory harness.

[kach22i]

This was one of the concerns I had. TMIC aren't that efficient to begin with, I was worried their wouldn't be enough airflow to it.
I meant "resolved" in the context of where it was going to go.

The technical issues of being stuck in traffic with reverse air flow may be addressed by the addition of a large draw-down intake fan.

I have no idea, but if it adds weight and or costs it may not be addressed completely to everyone's satisfaction and or every worse case sernario.

[BrandonDrums]

It is the factory downpipe. One of the people mentioned it after talking to jim.

Yeah, I see now :-P It's been so long since I've used mine I hardily recognized it. I bet this is for MA state emissions compliance, the factory cats must be used and must be in the factory location as a bud of mine reminded me of this morning. This is somewhat of a *******ization but perhaps that would slip by inspection. The only other option would be to alter the up pipe to rotate the turbo forward so the stock DP can bolt up to it without the bracket.

I just hope they offer a larger bellmouth or divorced wg setup so I don't have to custom fabricate the downpipe as I'll most likely be going catless...

The wiring looks daunting though, there's so much mess sitting where the passenger seat would go it scares me.

Do we know if the harness can be 'dieted' like on the fords? I know there's a good bit of codes that can be turned off on the ECU so you can leave connectors dangling and unplugged but not if the wires can be trimmed and capped. I imagine so but I've never split open a plug to see if there's any resistors or such in there.

PhyrraM would probably know...

Also, looks like adjusting the seat won't really be an option, those bars are way too close to fit your hand down there to pull the height adjustment leaver....

[BipDBo]

I meant "resolved" in the context of where it was going to go.

The technical issues of being stuck in traffic with reverse air flow may be addressed by the addition of a large draw-down intake fan.

I have no idea, but if it adds weight and or costs it may not be addressed completely to everyone's satisfaction and or every worse case sernario.

I say, remove the entire rear portion of the body, everything behind the doors and leave it in your garage. That would should resolve any intercooler issues, not to mention get rid of those unsightly camel humps.

[BrandonDrums]

I say, remove the entire rear portion of the body, everything behind the doors and leave it in your garage. That would should resolve any intercooler issues, not to mention get rid of those unsightly camel humps.

Well, those are structural. On a positive note, if there were air ducts facing forward on each hump, you could easily route a LOT of air to the intercooler underneath the angle bars behind the headrests. Kinda MR2 bodykit style but symmetrical and integrated into the body. If you wanted to get fancy, you could then route that air to vent right under the rear diffuser if there is one using some duct tape and metallic dryer hoses lol.

http://www.rsbodykits.co.uk/newimages/wojtmar/normal/MR21AIRINTAKE%20kopia.jpg

[BipDBo]

[QUOTE=BrandonDrums;59740]Well, those are structural. On a positive note, if there were air ducts facing forward on each hump, you could easily route a LOT of air to the intercooler underneath the angle bars behind the headrests. Kinda MR2 bodykit style but symmetrical and integrated into the body. If you wanted to get fancy, you could then route that air to vent right under the rear diffuser if there is one using some duct tape and metallic dryer hoses lol.

QUOTE]

That bar is definately structural, necessary and immobile. I was just pondering an option where this bar would be exposed, and just go through a hole in the top of the body like it does on the roadster. This may look better, but would likely impose limits on opening the rear body work over the engine.
9741

The intake you descibe is what I did on my design. I was going for less MR2 add-on, and more Lamborghini Miura. That was at least, my intent.
9740
9739

[fateo66]

Two other things that I notice that I really like are the caster adjustable upper control arms and also the 5 point harness mounts!

[shim2]

Well, those are structural. On a positive note, if there were air ducts facing forward on each hump, you could easily route a LOT of air to the intercooler underneath the angle bars behind the headrests. Kinda MR2 bodykit style but symmetrical and integrated into the body. If you wanted to get fancy, you could then route that air to vent right under the rear diffuser if there is one using some duct tape and metallic dryer hoses lol.

http://www.rsbodykits.co.uk/newimages/wojtmar/normal/MR21AIRINTAKE%20kopia.jpg

Those silly air scoops proved to be of no benefit for the car. Actually, on the mk2 the intercooler is on the passenger side. Airbox is on the drivers side.

[PhyrraM]

I'm, personally, not keen on a 5 point harness. I would like to see the final chassis accomodate a (likely OEM) 3 point seatbelt.

Good observation on the seat height adjuster..a bit of hand space to reach it would be appreciated.

As far as wiring...tough call. Subarus use integrated harnesses. Meaning that engine controls are bundled and wrapped with all the other car systems. This makes segregating and trimming out useless functions very tedious. I'm betting that FFR's official instructions will not do this. However, nothing there to stop an individual from doing his own harness diet.

Off the top of my head....

HVAC, lots of wiring right behind the dash. Probably much of what you see in the passenger seat.
Power windows, mirrors and door locks. Small bits of wiring all through out the harness.
Map lights, Dome light and 4 door switches. I also think that power for specialty rear view mirrors is in all cars.
Stereo and 4 speakers, one in each door.
Non-cluster dash lighting. A good bit of wiring running across the dash.
Fog lights and switch (on most WRXs)
Trunk light.

In a stock Subaru the main wiring 'clusters' are the fuse/relay panel under the hood behind the battery and the fuse/distibution panel un the drivers footwell area.

[shim2]

You saying that the Subi harness is integrated, would every harness be required to get car running properly?

[skullandbones]

So far this looks like a very competent little race car (low cog - hope they leave steel floor, like the outboard coolant tubes). How is the main hoop and supports going to work? I think it will need a cover of some kind. Maybe that will change before final.

I would not use that seat. I can think of several alternatives that would look better but understand cost control. The flanges for the exhaust tube extension are only temp, I think. They will have to engineer a better flow solution for that. Except for a few items, it looks like a finished product. That's amazing!! Wonder what the testing shows. Were there any hints about that? Thanks, WEK.

[Flamshackle]

Oh man I love those snaps of the go cart! It looks like progress is really humming along. Cant wait to see a video of this little beauty on the go! Wooohoooo!

Excitement HOF officially back on track!

[Smitty911]

I'm liking it so far.

Photo #1
1. Motor is leaning forward - Looks like 10º or more, will Oil pooling in the front be an issue?
2. No cage around the motor - First thing to get hit will be your tranny?
3. Drivers Side Gas Fill - The only correct place for it.
4. Roll bar is really low - Glad I'm not a Wookie :o

Photo #2
1. Appears that I don't have to worry about my big feet fitting - Lots of foot room.
2. Front Adjustable upper arms - Standard or Upgrade?
3. Really long Battery Cable - Voltage Drop?

[Niburu]

Smitty I assume by your screename you have a 911
with a battery in the front and an engine in the back
don't worry about the battery cable

[PhyrraM]

Smitty I assume by your screename you have a 911
with a battery in the front and an engine in the back
don't worry about the battery cable

Ohhh, I get it now. I just thought he needed help. :D



Yeah, the engine is quite raked from stock. In a Subaru it's actually just the opposite, the nose of the motor is noticably up. While different from stock, I don't see a problem with oil flow. Maybe a touch of pooling in a non-critical area in the heads.

Also, I'm guessing the adjustable arms will be standard. The stock lower control arm and bushings have no adjustability of alignment, so FFR needs to build it in somewhere. Second, that would be a perfect way of accomodating both widths of Subaru suspensions.

[Benji]

What about the oil in the transaxle? What with it being tilted forwards?

[Flamshackle]

What about the oil in the transaxle? What with it being tilted forwards?

Well the diff will be well lubricated! Hahaha... I don't see it being a problem.

[StatGSR]

the only oil issue i can think of with the engine that far forward is getting an accurate oil measurement from the dip stick and getting the oil out of the oil pan, i would plan on adding a new drain bung to the front of the oil pan.

[coolbluelb]

I want to HEAR it!!!

[Smitty911]

Smitty I assume by your screename you have a 911
with a battery in the front and an engine in the back
don't worry about the battery cable

Nope, I just sold my 914, the 911 was more of an emergancy thing, seems at work I always seem to get the "I need it now and done yesterday work." :)

The 914 had about a 3' run, so that was never an issue.

I guess we'll have to plan on a group by of 30' 00 wire for that run.

Smitty

[Smitty911]

Ohhh, I get it now. I just thought he needed help. :D



Yeah, the engine is quite raked from stock. In a Subaru it's actually just the opposite, the nose of the motor is noticably up. While different from stock, I don't see a problem with oil flow. Maybe a touch of pooling in a non-critical area in the heads.

Also, I'm guessing the adjustable arms will be standard. The stock lower control arm and bushings have no adjustability of alignment, so FFR needs to build it in somewhere. Second, that would be a perfect way of accomodating both widths of Subaru suspensions.


PhyrraM,

I need more help than some. In Bible study, I always seem to the one that gets extra Grace.

Good point on the Upper Control Arms, I seem to remember in the earlier Cobras that they were an option.

Is it me or does the weld to the right of the Turbo on the top of the brace going back and down appear to be "missing"?

My biggest concern is the Stack of Wires in the passenger area. It could come in at 1700lbs with 75% of the wiring removed. I think I'll need to invest in Zipties, the company and the product. ;)

The exhaust looks really short, curious as to dB reading standing next to it. Should be an intresting tone, would like to hear it........Hint......Hint

Intresting how the front will attach - Tilt front??

Smitty

[Smitty911]

the only oil issue i can think of with the engine that far forward is getting an accurate oil measurement from the dip stick and getting the oil out of the oil pan, i would plan on adding a new drain bung to the front of the oil pan.

Or lift the front of the car on ramps to confuse the locals.

[PhyrraM]

As you can see from these pictures, the oil returns from the heads at the very bottom and at the ends of the block. If anything, a slight tilt might improve flow return, it certainly can't hurt much.


http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4013/4471503084_5f851b7453_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/4471503084/)

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4014/4471502094_f7e1b8ba1d_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/4471502094/)

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4031/4470718923_8b90b9a966_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/4470718923/)

Here you can see that a bit of pooling might occur at the very bottom corners, but it looks like even stock, not all the oil will drain back.
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4039/4252903668_424189dec8_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/4252903668/)

Here is a typical oil pan. Deep and short. A bit of a slant should pose little problem to keeping the pickup submerged.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3066/3088191967_224f09f67a_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/3088191967/)

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3274/3067887020_f2ac0c78de_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/3067887020/)

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3023/3067886420_16417fee76_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/3067886420/)

[Leonard]

More observations:

The shifter looks to be an OEM part from a non-Subaru.


The shifter cables look to be lokar. I can't figure out what the shifter itself is out of. Maybe an MR2? There is some stuff like this (http://www.renegadehybrids.com/CustomCars/Pictures/Pic01.jpg -- which is way too expensive). There have to be lots of options out there in the sand rail community though that aren't so pricey.

[Nuul]

That's a good point about oil flow, I hadn't considered it. Is there any difference on the returns on the EJ257? I'll be using the 205 heads but 257 block. Since the match up I'm assuming they return pretty much exactly.

[PhyrraM]

The interface between the heads and block has very little (if any) change in 20+years. The newer AVCS heads can use more oil, resulting in more oil to return, but I've never read about a prolem.

I know some builders put some effort into smoothing out the return paths, but from what I have read it's more preventative that an answer to a specific issue. I suppose that theroetically -with a portion of the oil return nearly horizontal- a long, high-G turn might trap oil in one head (while assisting the other head). Whether this can realistically drain the sump? No idea, but I've not heard anybody talking about it (albeit, I stick to mostly street/daily driver builds when I do research)

[Leonard]

If they were the angle of the drive train were that sensitive to being mounted with the nose down a bit, I would think there would be stories of people killing motors while driving through the mountains.

[scartaan]

When I look at the pics of the go-kart, it appears to me that the the rear suspension is missing the front lateral link. I would think this would lead to toe-in, toe-out instability. Am I missing something?

[Smitty911]

9785
When I look at the pics of the go-kart, it appears to me that the the rear suspension is missing the front lateral link. I would think this would lead to toe-in, toe-out instability. Am I missing something?

On the Drivers rear tire you can clearly see three connection points.

1. Long rod going forward to Frame, from bottom of rear spindle.
2. Long rod connecting under the motor.
3. Uper adjustable link

Hope that helps.

Now how it works I'll leave to the smarter people.

Smitty

[Oppenheimer]

9785

On the Drivers rear tire you can clearly see three connection points.

1. Long rod going forward to Frame, from bottom of rear spindle.
2. Long rod connecting under the motor.
3. Uper adjustable link

Hope that helps.

Now how it works I'll leave to the smarter people.

Smitty

Is that yet an additional upper rod I see from spindle going forward to frame? I see portions of it in that pic at each wheel.

[PhyrraM]

Is that yet an additional upper rod I see from spindle going forward to frame? I see portions of it in that pic at each wheel.

Yes, because the rear upper "A-arm" is not an A-arm, but a simple lateral link. The forward link provides the fore-and-aft positioning for upper linkages.

[bromikl]

I doubt they angled the motor, and not because of the oil pickup. If they angled the motor, the transmission would stick up in the air, negating any CG gains from the engine being lowered. From the photos I've seen, it doesn't look like it. In addition, this would make servicing the engine more difficult - already a concern unless the firewall is designed to be removed.

[FinishlineWRX]

The first picture posted sure looks like they angled the drive line down. But could just be how the angle on the picture is maybe.

I think it would help the cog in the car. even with it angling the tail of the trans up the mounting point of the rear crossmember is behind all the main weight of the assembly. And the tail of the 5mt is really light.

I'm wondering how the said soft top is going to work. A manual fold down thing? Right over the engine heat? or a completely independent removable part..

[skullandbones]

I tend to agree with you. The pics really can distort your perspective. I do like the pics that came about due to the suggestion that the engine was tilted, though. I think I've gotten more insight from these threads about the mechanicals than looking on the other forums trying to glean some ideas. I wish the guys would keep showing off their Subie wares. Thanks, WEK.

[scartaan]

Rear suspension again. With a single point of attachment at the top and bottom of the spindle, and even with the fore-aft controlled by the traction bar toward the front, there is not enough control of toe-in and toe-out. This is controlled in the WRX with two lateral links to the bottom of the spindle. The forward link is aluminum on the 06 WRX,which appears to be their donor, and appears to be missing in these recent photos. The photos of the go-kart last June, however, appear to show these aluminum links. Did they change the rear suspension geometry?

[NonProfit]

I'm wondering how the said soft top is going to work. A manual fold down thing? Right over the engine heat? or a completely independent removable part..

From Dave's brief description:


It will be a roadster and it will have a convertible soft top at launch.

I assumed it would be a fold-down top (which means nothing - ha!). The body does have a vent behind each C-pillar as well as one centrally located in the rear. These could dissipate engine heat when the top is up.

[prematureapex]

I doubt they angled the motor, and not because of the oil pickup. If they angled the motor, the transmission would stick up in the air, negating any CG gains from the engine being lowered.

No, you're making two assumptions with that statement.

First, you're assuming they're pivoting around the center of the assembly (i.e. one end up, the other down), they could easy leaving the rear of the trans generally in the same spot, and lowering the engine mounts with minimal change in the height of the trans on the other end. This would clearly be the case as the whole stock Subaru assembly is only supported near the rear of the trans, and the front two engine mounts. Lowering the front mounts means pivoting the assembly around the rear trans mount. So the trans won't be raised.

Secondly, you're assuming the engine and trans weigh the same, and thus, that your CG gains will be negated. The engine is significantly heavier, so, even in arguendo, if the trans went up, and the motor went down, you'd likely still see a lowering of the CG.

[leetfade]

I'm not sure I understand your pivoting logic.

If the transmission is bolted to the engine, lowering one raises the other - or - creates a gap between the two pieces (which would require loosening the transmission from the engine). The rear of the transmission may be in the same general area, but it would be pitched up and would require altering the location of the mount to account for the increased degree(s) of angle. It may not be enough to warrant that necessarily, just an over-generalization.

I agree that a minor drop in the engine could have little impact to the placement of the end of the transmission, but it would still alter the pitch.

[shim2]

You wouldn't nessessarily have to move the transmission mount just because they lowered the engine mounts. Think of it as a brake caliper, when you're changing the pads you completely remove the lower bolt while you only loosen the upper bolt and the caliper pivots on that bolt, changing the angle of the caliper. I think he's saying they did the same thing with the engine.

[StatGSR]

I'm not sure I understand your pivoting logic.

If the transmission is bolted to the engine, lowering one raises the other - or - creates a gap between the two pieces (which would require loosening the transmission from the engine). The rear of the transmission may be in the same general area, but it would be pitched up and would require altering the location of the mount to account for the increased degree(s) of angle. It may not be enough to warrant that necessarily, just an over-generalization.

I agree that a minor drop in the engine could have little impact to the placement of the end of the transmission, but it would still alter the pitch.

lol what? lowering the front (the engine) would change the angle of the rear mount (the rear mount would be acting as the pivot point to lower the engine), you would not change the location of the rear mount. because the pivot point (the tranny mount) is located towards the end of the transmission, the engine will drop down further than the back of the transmission will raise. why is this so hard???? prematureapex pretty much nailed it on the head!

[BrandonDrums]

Tilting the engine and trans forward absolutely will lower the CoG. The vast bulk of the weight is in the front of the assembly by i would estimate a ratio of about 3:1 (5mt weighs just over 100, complete EJ's with all the kit are said to be about 300 lbs). There's a thread floating in the archives somewhere with all the trans and engine weights both with and without accessories that can confirm or disprove my estimate though.

Just look at this shot, it's a JDM STI engine with a 6 speed so there's actually even more weight out at the tail of the transmission on the 5 speed PLUS on the 818, there won't be a center diff which sticks out a good bit at the tail.

http://www.jdmracingmotors.com/images/EnginePics/Full/817_IMG_9001.jpg

[leetfade]

lol what? lowering the front (the engine) would change the angle of the rear mount (the rear mount would be acting as the pivot point to lower the engine), you would not change the location of the rear mount. because the pivot point (the tranny mount) is located towards the end of the transmission, the engine will drop down further than the back of the transmission will raise. why is this so hard???? prematureapex pretty much nailed it on the head!

I think you read too much into it or I explained it incorrectly (probably more likely). Simply stating that if you lower the front (the engine) it will pitch up the transmission. The mount bushing likely has enough give to absorb the minor amount if only moved a small degree (what you're referring to as pivot [I get that it's the "pivot" point]), but any major lowering of the engine side would pitch the transmission up too much and would require the mount be at an angle or moved as well.

[CallawayTurner]

In designing the 818, they're free to design areas for the mounts so that they are mounted at the angle that they choose to mount the engine. The Engine/transmission mounts don't have to be mounted in exactly the same orientation with respect to horizontal in the 818 as they were in the Impreza, so don't lose any sleep over the mounts being 'angled'.

[leetfade]

Oh I'm not and well aware that they can choose wherever. It was more trying to understand the logic of the transmission mount pivoting the engine.

I'm definitely one of those guys that is always learning more. I was more trying to understand if it was something that I wasn't aware of which is why I started by saying I wasn't sure if I understood the logic. It wasn't meant to be a forum flame. ;) I just can't picture how you could lower one side and the other end would be unchanged.

[prematureapex]

The pitch would of course change, but not necessarily the height, at least not in any meaningful way. The person I responded to was claiming the height would change, so much so that the CG would be negatively affected. Which is incorrect for at least the two reasons stated (no real height increase with the rear mounting (i.e. pivot) point, and the engine weighs more than the trans anyway).


Oh I'm not and well aware that they can choose wherever. It was more trying to understand the logic of the transmission mount pivoting the engine.

I'm definitely one of those guys that is always learning more. I was more trying to understand if it was something that I wasn't aware of which is why I started by saying I wasn't sure if I understood the logic. It wasn't meant to be a forum flame. ;) I just can't picture how you could lower one side and the other end would be unchanged.

[leetfade]

Yep, then I just misunderstood what you were trying to say. ;-)

[el_jefe]

Did they start the engine? I'm curious what the exhaust note is going to sound like out of such a short pipe.

Pretty much like this:

http://youtu.be/SDxSEJ3g_nA

Turbos quiet the engine down quite a bit, actually.

[Nuul]

Not bad. I doubt it's over ordinance level but still pretty loud.

[el_jefe]

It will probably be too loud for long drives. I ran turbo/catless downpipe to a dump on one of my cars, and it was pretty loud when I went WOT, but I never got pulled over. I plan on a muffler with a electric plate bypass so I can straight pipe it for the track.

[shinn497]

I think they will need the stock amount of cats and a muffler so that it can be street legal. This version is most certainly not final...

[apexanimal]

i drive a ptgt (srt4 motor) and with just a 3" turboback w/ a cat it's really not to bad... i've gotten used to so i'll likely just keep it like the go-kart...

[Smitty911]

After driving it that way for 3 months, the noise is the same, it the hearing loss compensating for it. :D

Smitty

[07FIREBLADE]

I wonder how hard it will be to add in some windsheild support like a front roll bar which is seen on the GTM. Wondering if the chassis that depicted in the photos from the AJW event are the finished chassis or if their are gonna be some slight modifications....

[projectrally]

Based on the fact it's got all the running gear in it, and they've said they're actually doing testing, I'm going to guess that any changes to the frame are going to come only if the testing shows a specific problem that requires engineering a solution. It seems late in the game to be making structural changes for any reason other than pure necessity.

[PhyrraM]

I'm actually guessing the opposite. I bet there is one more chassis coming that incorperates body mount requirements (including windshield mounting) that will also include running updates that may be currently "hacked" on the current go-cart.

[07FIREBLADE]

^^^ hopefully that this will be the case. Or I will be waiting for the coupe version which should have these frame modifications. Just look at the GTM cage.

[jimgood]

9892

The clearance between the frame member and the rear suspension link looks too close to represent a final configuration. Maybe it's the perspective but it looks like less than half an inch. I would expect droop to cause contact at that point.

[Smitty911]

9892

The clearance between the frame member and the rear suspension link looks too close to represent a final configuration. Maybe it's the perspective but it looks like less than half an inch. I would expect droop to cause contact at that point.

Using CAD for their design, I'm sure the range of motion of the suspension has been checked and double checked for clearances, with a safety factor built in.

Smitty

[PhyrraM]

1/2" of droop that close to the pivot, is going to be somehing like 6"-8" of droop out by the wheels. The car won't have more then 3"-4". Should be fine as is - but as detailed as FFR normally is, it wouldn't suprise me if it get addressed anyways.

[kach22i]

Using CAD for their design, I'm sure the range of motion of the suspension has been checked and double checked for clearances, with a safety factor built in.

Smitty
You mean like the contest template?

I hope it's better than that.;)

[Smitty911]

You mean like the contest template?

I hope it's better than that.;)

Good point, I wasn't very involved in that as I have no marketable skills.:D

Smitty

[ROB-RST]

The wiring looks daunting though, there's so much mess sitting where the passenger seat would go it scares me.

Do we know if the harness can be 'dieted' like on the fords? I know there's a good bit of codes that can be turned off on the ECU so you can leave connectors dangling and unplugged but not if the wires can be trimmed and capped. I imagine so but I've never split open a plug to see if there's any resistors or such in there.


There aren't any resistors or components in the plugs, it would be pretty easy to strip out the loom. I stripped the cruise control out of my 04 RS loom and spliced it into an 04 JDM WRX loom, there wasn't anything tricky about it but it was time consuming.



There are three separate harnesses - engine, main (cabin, through firewall and left fender to fuse box) and front (connects below right hand 'A' pillar and goes to lights/wipers/thermo fans/ABS/etc). Stripping the main would also remove SRS and ABS wiring which would add up to a fair amount of bulk being removed.

Basically everything in the Impreza engine bay apart from the engine that is controlled connects to the plugs under the 'A' pillar. I'd guess the easiest way to integrate the loom into the 818 would be for FF to supply a new front loom that connects to these plugs and does everything in the front of the car. I don't know what they'd do about the tail lights but there wouldn't be much wiring needed so probably not a big deal to cut and crimp some connectors into the existing loom.

I'd be interested to see what they are doing with the power steering as well. I removed the standard belt driven PS pump in my Impreza and am running an electric pump (electro-hydraulic) which is plumbed into the standard rack. Would be very easy to integrate this into the 818 instead of running lines down the car.

EDIT: Just had a better look and the loom doesn't appear to be routed at all. I think that lump of wiring in the passenger area is the majority of the loom. They'd be able to connect it up and fire up the engine but I can't see anything permanent....

[skullandbones]

With all the relocation of components in this project, I think the customizing of the harnesses could be pretty labor intense but you could put it together like FFR has done with everything intact and test by mocking up the head and tail light, blinkers, etc. The labeling of all plugs and sockets with pics from the original donor would be good, too. I saw a guy building a Daytonna coupe who wired up everything and tested it like this before shortening and dieting the harnesses. Definitely the way to go. I also think the newness of the donor will have an effect on the task as the harnesses are hard to rework when they have "hardened" with age. The real reward in the end is that there is a lot more "plug and play" opportunities on this project even if you have to cut and solder to shorten some of it. WEK.

[Flamshackle]

I'd be interested to see what they are doing with the power steering as well. I removed the standard belt driven PS pump in my Impreza and am running an electric pump (electro-hydraulic) which is plumbed into the standard rack. Would be very easy to integrate this into the 818 instead of running lines down the car.....

What did you use for the electric power steer pump? And why did you do it? I'm currently doing the same thing to my race car using an MR2 pump.

[NonProfit]

I'd be interested to see what they are doing with the power steering as well. I removed the standard belt driven PS pump in my Impreza and am running an electric pump (electro-hydraulic) which is plumbed into the standard rack. Would be very easy to integrate this into the 818 instead of running lines down the car.


What did you use for the electric power steer pump? And why did you do it? I'm currently doing the same thing to my race car using an MR2 pump.

Just out of curiosity, why go to the effort (even a little) to add power steering? Depowering the rack makes sense to me, but as this won't have an engine block sitting over the front axle, what's the advantage?

[ROB-RST]

What did you use for the electric power steer pump? And why did you do it? I'm currently doing the same thing to my race car using an MR2 pump.

I used a 2002 Holden/Open/Vauxhal/Saturn? Astra pump, it doesn't have the vehicle speed input like the MR2 version but it does vary the pump speed depending on load. It works very well and I have no complaints about the steering being light at higher speeds, or at any speed really. It should work very well on the skid pan as the steering feels really smooth at low speeds but I'd like to drive my car back to back with a mates who has reconditioned his stock pump.

I put a 3 stage Moroso dry sump pump in its place. I still had to use a mandrel on the crank pulley for a new drive (radius tooth) but for me it was a convenient spot. I'm also still runing a 3.5" under manifold intake so the engine should drop straight into an 818! :D I just hope there is room for the extra belt between the motor and the firewall....

[ROB-RST]

Just out of curiosity, why go to the effort (even a little) to add power steering? Depowering the rack makes sense to me, but as this won't have an engine block sitting over the front axle, what's the advantage?

The power steering fluid operates on the rack as opposed to the steering column. So if you remove the power steering pump you are probably adding a lot more stress on the system than it was designed for. I'm assuming the 818 will use the stock rack and it feels pretty ordinary turning the steering without the power assistance - to me it feels like you're stressing the pinion and column.

I had the rack reconditioned at 130,000kms due to a warn pinion so I can't imagine that it would be very reliable without the power assistance.

[riptide motorsport]

On this light a car you won't need power steering, its no more diferent than the C0bras and they don't need it either....Steven

[ROB-RST]

^ That'll be good if it really is that easy. Do they use a manual rack or a power steering rack that has the fluid connections blocked off? I'll search around anyway to see what's done, cheers.

[metalmaker12]

i started a thread on it, i already de-powered my rack

[Gary in NJ]

Both of my favorite cars didn't have power steering; 240Z & MR2. Both were light weight and had R&P steering.

I'm sure the 818 will not need PS, AC, PW, PL...

Keep it simple, keep it light.

[shim2]

MK2 MR2 came with either Electro-Hydraluic or manual PS. I don't think Impreza's have that option. I'm pretty sure you'd have to use a non power steering rack if you didn't want it. Removing PS pump from a ps rack I'd imagine wouldn't end well.

*I'm not sure but maybe a non PS mk2 mr2 rack is the same length at tie rod ends as Impreza rack.

I personally don't see the benefits of removing ps unless your car is only for track days.

[NonProfit]

I personally don't see the benefits of removing ps unless your car is only for track days.

It's less "removing" and more "not installing." Besides, you get more road feel, which, IMO, is a good thing.

[metalmaker12]

The rack will last with no power with no problem if you just remove the seal inside!!!!!! as i have mentioned like 1000 times lol. In a car that is 818kg you dont want ps. It would be like putting ps on a go-kart, why is this hard to graspppp. Its all about road feel and feedback when you drive a race car. I mean if you guys want to have ac, a built in keurig and subs with run DMC playing maybe this car is not for you. This car is going to be a street legal race car that you smile the whole time you drive it like when you first drove a go kart with your friends when you were like 12. Did you need a *** warmer than. Come on lets realize what this car is, a mans man car!!!

love you guys at FFR, this is a great idea.

[thestigwins]

The rack will last with no power with no problem if you just remove the seal inside!!!!!! as i have mentioned like 1000 times lol. In a car that is 818kg you dont want ps. It would be like putting ps on a go-kart, why is this hard to graspppp. Its all about road feel and feedback when you drive a race car. I mean if you guys want to have ac, a built in keurig and subs with run DMC playing maybe this car is not for you. This car is going to be a street legal race car that you smile the whole time you drive it like when you first drove a go kart with your friends when you were like 12. Did you need a *** warmer than. Come on lets realize what this car is, a mans man car!!!

love you guys at FFR, this is a great idea.

I think it depends on what you want out of the car. I drove my friends miata without power steering and it was kind of a PITA. I could only imagine how hard it would have been to autocross the thing with the slow tight turns.

I think some people like the idea of building a car, whether for the street as a summer cruiser or for the track. I see no problem putting AC and whatever other luxuries one could wish for. I guess what you consider a mans car and what I consider a mans car are two different things.

[shim2]

The rack will last with no power with no problem if you just remove the seal inside!!!!!! as i have mentioned like 1000 times lol. In a car that is 818kg you dont want ps. It would be like putting ps on a go-kart, why is this hard to graspppp. Its all about road feel and feedback when you drive a race car. I mean if you guys want to have ac, a built in keurig and subs with run DMC playing maybe this car is not for you. This car is going to be a street legal race car that you smile the whole time you drive it like when you first drove a go kart with your friends when you were like 12. Did you need a *** warmer than. Come on lets realize what this car is, a mans man car!!!

love you guys at FFR, this is a great idea.

F1 cars weigh far less than 818kg and they have power assisted steering. A lot of racing leagues use some sort of power steering system. Hell, I think an F1 car dry is less than 1000 pounds.

Regardless, we are all different people and want different things out of the car. If you want no ps, no a/c, no radio, that's fine. That's you and you can do whatever you like with your car, if someone else wants to add said things who are you to tell them the 818 isn't the "car for them"?

I've driven both ps and non ps mk2 mr2's and to be honest with you, the only thing it gained was a PITA factor. To me the car still felt the same.

[ScottKoschwitz]

I used to race a Miata, and in preparing it for racing I, and everyone else, depowered the steering rack. You didn't need the power steering, and it freed up some horsepower. That was for a car that weighed about 2100 pounds without driver. I can't imagine you would need power steering for a car even lighter than that.

[StatGSR]

F1 cars weigh far less than 818kg and they have power assisted steering.

well there is more to it than static weight,

they have pretty massive and sticky rubber up front
they have a tiny steering wheel (and sit in a cockpit that basically gives them no arm leverage)
the steering wheel goes lock to lock in about 1 rotation
the added weight from downforce at speed can be greater than the cars static weight...

that said, it makes sense to me to have PS in an F1 car.

in any case, going without power steering is not for everyone. that said, i just ripped the PS out of my integra.

[Evan78]

Come on lets realize what this car is, a mans man car!!! If you need to prove your manhood through your car, perhaps some kind of self-help forum is a better fit for you.

[Flamshackle]

well there is more to it than static weight,

they have pretty massive and sticky rubber up front
they have a tiny steering wheel (and sit in a cockpit that basically gives them no arm leverage)
the steering wheel goes lock to lock in about 1 rotation
the added weight from downforce at speed can be greater than the cars static weight...

that said, it makes sense to me to have PS in an F1 car.

in any case, going without power steering is not for everyone. that said, i just ripped the PS out of my integra.

This^^^

818 won't need power steer end of story... Sure you can run it but it won't need it.

[shim2]

well there is more to it than static weight,

they have pretty massive and sticky rubber up front
they have a tiny steering wheel (and sit in a cockpit that basically gives them no arm leverage)
the steering wheel goes lock to lock in about 1 rotation
the added weight from downforce at speed can be greater than the cars static weight...

that said, it makes sense to me to have PS in an F1 car.

in any case, going without power steering is not for everyone. that said, i just ripped the PS out of my integra.

Good points, you're right. The whole ps for the 818 debate is silly. If someone wants to why should they not? Because someone else on the internet told them not to?

[el_jefe]

The problem with hydraulic power steering is the massive increase in fluid required. Plus you will need to fab up hard lines to run from the front to the rear. It's going to put more of a strain on the pump, and make it less effective. If there is an electric rack that you can use, that would be the way to go.

[PhyrraM]

The problem with hydraulic power steering is the massive increase in fluid required. Plus you will need to fab up hard lines to run from the front to the rear. It's going to put more of a strain on the pump, and make it less effective. If there is an electric rack that you can use, that would be the way to go.

Or, as mentioned by many others so far, use a front mounted electric pump. Subaru themselves even did this with the XT6 ('88-'91).

Adapting a 3rd party rack would involve modifying FFRs frame (and some of the engineering and suspension geometry behind it). Adding an electric hydraulic pump would not.

I don't expect to 'need' power steering. However, I am not building a track star. I will be building an 818 for the street and will keep my options open.

[Gary in NJ]

Those that have never driven a sports car without power steering only associate the feel of non-powered steering when they have had to turn with steering wheel when the engine wasn't running. It's a nightmare.

A car that is DESIGNED not to have powered steering is a joy to drive. The only exception to this is turning the wheel without any forward or reward motion, where the steering is heavy. But as soon as the car is going as slow as 1 mph, the steering wheel becomes progressively easier to move.

The go-kart example give above is dead-on.

[RM1SepEx]

+1 and do the de-powering correctly, don't just loop the hoses for best feel

[StatGSR]

^ i think looped racks get more slack than they deserve, my legacy didn't feel terrible with a looped rack for the 10 minutes i drove it (it was my first test drive after the h6 swap, still have a bunch of kinks to work out), and my integra will be off the jack stands in a couple weeks so i will be able to give my honest opinion about that shortly.

but then again, if you feel the need to tear apart your steering rack, then be my guest!

[shim2]

http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac305/StockGC8/6%20Speed%20Swap%20Pics/0015spdvs6spd_resize.jpg
I'm beginning to think the 6spd will be hard to fit. I didn't realize it was that much larger than the 5spd

[shinn497]

Yeah it looks completely not worth it....Just get a set of stronger gears.

[shim2]

A friend of mine who owns an 04 sti said 05+ 5spd has stronger gears. That's what I'll be going with. 6spd looks like a hassle.

[NicksPapaw]

The rack will last with no power with no problem if you just remove the seal inside!!!!!! as i have mentioned like 1000 times lol. In a car that is 818kg you dont want ps. It would be like putting ps on a go-kart, why is this hard to graspppp. Its all about road feel and feedback when you drive a race car. I mean if you guys want to have ac, a built in keurig and subs with run DMC playing maybe this car is not for you. This car is going to be a street legal race car that you smile the whole time you drive it like when you first drove a go kart with your friends when you were like 12. Did you need a *** warmer than. Come on lets realize what this car is, a mans man car!!!

love you guys at FFR, this is a great idea.

OK, my cobra doesn't have Power Steering and I am OK with that. At speed it is a dream to drive. For me, the 818 will be a little different. I will have A/C, a good sound system (and yes, I like Run DMC) and until now I haven't even thought of adding the Keurig but it is a great idea. I can promise you that you can still smile the whole time you drive it even with the air on and Run DMC blasting through the subs. :) Nothing wrong with driving your go kart when you were 12, but, if your friend had a go kart with air, P/S, and stereo, I bet you would want his.

[metalmaker12]

lol, yea you have your opinion, sorry hope i did no harm, i just like the feedback of no ps. Maybe you will change my viewpoint, hell maybe i will put Ac in, but 818kg with the engine in back ''no ps is like a car with ps'', trust me, my friends depowered his elise's racke and he likes way more. The roadsters don't have it, and the motor is right over it, i have driven two and they drive great, and they weigh like 2,400
Unless you use an electric set up, it is going to be fun fabbing your own lines from the back., Ac is going to be fun to, unless they offer this stuff

[metalmaker12]

no not at all lol,,,,,,, lol gotta admit it was funny, honestly i like a raw race car set up, maybe a radio with some nice speakers, but were the hell are you going to fit subs???? this car is small man. run dmc, yea it sucks:D, ok i take it back,, its ok cause its classic i guess.... ps... wears the body of this beast!!!!!!! i want it now lol, fun times

[metalmaker12]

yea the 6 is like a giant lol, problem is it might hit the body even with the rear diff off. measure both and when they get the body done asked them of clearance, it might make it and with some mods work very well

[shim2]

I'm not seeing how that monster is gonna work. It looks like it's at least 10-12" longer than the 5spd. Even with the extension case off it would still be longer than the 5sd with it's extension case left on. I don't think the 818 will have that much spare room in the bumper area to be honest.

It would be nice if it'll work, but I have my doubts.

[RM1SepEx]

^ i think looped racks get more slack than they deserve, my legacy didn't feel terrible with a looped rack for the 10 minutes i drove it

Based on a bunch of experience and my mechanical engineering background...
When you depower a rack by simply looping it you have a bunch of "extra" friction and drag in the steering, increasing effort... for no good reason.

Many of my friends who autocross have depowered Miata racks, you can feel the extra effort as the power rack has to force the fluid around through the hose and the power rack has extra seals adding friction. Depower it fully by removing the extra seals etc... and it feels easier to turn.

All simple basic facts, no need to start some sort of web flame war over it.

Powering the rack will be a PITA. Depower it, no PS pump, no PS lines to run, its all good. The 1800 lb 818 won't need power steering, as long as the car is rolling steering effort will be fine.

BTW the perspective of the two trans pictures makes the 6 speed look larger too, the two belhousings are the same size, correct???

[NonProfit]

honestly i like a raw race car set up, maybe a radio with some nice speakers, but were the hell are you going to fit subs????

I've wondered about this. The Alpine SBR-S83V (http://www.alpine-usa.com/product/view/sbr-s83v/) is a preloaded box (as opposed to a raw speaker) which contains an 8" driver. Dimensions are 19 X 11 1/8 X 6 3/8 inches. Because low frequencies, unlike the mids and highs, are not directional it won't matter where the speaker is pointed. As I see it we've got two options. One is to take a significant amount of passenger foot well. The other is to incorporate it into the dash firing down at the shifter. Then add some 5 1/2 in the dash and some 6X9s in the doors and you've got incredible sound.

[metalmaker12]

Cool idea, they also have the free air subs too, not sure what sizes they come in, but it would free up even more space

[StatGSR]

Based on a bunch of experience and my mechanical engineering background...
When you depower a rack by simply looping it you have a bunch of "extra" friction and drag in the steering, increasing effort... for no good reason.

Many of my friends who autocross have depowered Miata racks, you can feel the extra effort as the power rack has to force the fluid around through the hose and the power rack has extra seals adding friction. Depower it fully by removing the extra seals etc... and it feels easier to turn.

All simple basic facts, no need to start some sort of web flame war over it.

Powering the rack will be a PITA. Depower it, no PS pump, no PS lines to run, its all good. The 1800 lb 818 won't need power steering, as long as the car is rolling steering effort will be fine.



BTW, a looped rack shouldn't have enough fluid in it to push fluid through the "loop hose" that's part of the trick to doing the "loop" right, also you can add a loop breather to help make it even easier. you only want to keep enough ps fluid in there to keep it lubed, you dont want so much that you have to move it around. Just want to put that info out there.

[NonProfit]

Cool idea, they also have the free air subs too, not sure what sizes they come in, but it would free up even more space

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought free air subs (http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=51) were simply using the trunk as a chamber and unless you have an isolated and reasonably sealed compartment I don't think they will work very well.

[Xusia]

An alternative to the traditional sub is to use transducers. They are typically attached to the underside of the seat and produce the impact/vibration of a powerful sub without actually producing much sound (the "hit" travels through hard parts rather than through the air). They are mostly used in theater applications, but there's no reason they couldn't work in a car as well. Couple these with decent 6-1/2" drivers in the doors or foot wells and tweeters, and it will sound and feel great (because the transducers don't produce much audible bass, you'll probably need at least 6-1/2" mid-range drivers; smaller would probably not be adquate). They take less amp power for the same effect, so that would be another plus.

If a traditional sub is a must have, a high efficiency sub in a small band pass style enclosure in either the front or rear "trunk" area (I use that term loosely) with a port into the cabin should sound pretty good. Just a lot more work and space than a transducer...

[PhyrraM]

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8168/7292682096_0b8239df5a_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/7292682096/)

Ths is an SVX, with the 'long' H6 and the 4-speed auto. However, it shows the typical 'nose up' engine slant in an OEM subaru installation.

[NicksPapaw]

no not at all lol,,,,,,, lol gotta admit it was funny, honestly i like a raw race car set up, maybe a radio with some nice speakers, but were the hell are you going to fit subs???? this car is small man. run dmc, yea it sucks:D, ok i take it back,, its ok cause its classic i guess.... ps... wears the body of this beast!!!!!!! i want it now lol, fun times

Just messing with you Metalmaker12. Run DMC does suck. As for subs, ain't gonna happen. I will have a stereo and A/C. I really don't think that PS is necessary on this car. Fabbing the lines for the A/C shouldn't be a huge problem. Like everything else, you just have to take your time, measure a lot and plan out your next move. Now, about that Keurig........ :)

[RM1SepEx]

BTW, a looped rack shouldn't have enough fluid in it to push fluid through the "loop hose" that's part of the trick to doing the "loop" right, also you can add a loop breather to help make it even easier. you only want to keep enough ps fluid in there to keep it lubed, you dont want so much that you have to move it around. Just want to put that info out there.

If you don't remove the extra seals when the rack moves it MUST push any fluid out of the way... that's what they are for. The power rack works as a simple hydraulic cylinder, pressurized fluid from the pump "helps" move the rack. If you move the rack by hand, the seals push the fluid out of the way, length of the hoses doesn't matter. You have the extra friction of those seals and the dampening of forcing the displaced fluid through a small diameter hose. If no fluid you still have extra seals with friction.

[305mouse]

For a sub, just get the OEM under the seat subwoofer. if you're using the stock seat it'll fit. You could also fit a 8" between the two seats in a small enclosure.

[metalmaker12]

For a sub, just get the OEM under the seat subwoofer. if you're using the stock seat it'll fit. You could also fit a 8" between the two seats in a small enclosure.


ok i was being nice about the subs, i will not be having any of that in this car. I might put ac cause it gets hot out lol. As far as the rack, once you remove the seals ( or shall i say seal in the wrx rack), you dont need ps fluid at all, just high temp lube. My dad, uncle and good friend all de-powered like at least 5 years ago, and they just put a good lube in there. Ps fluid is made to work under pressure, not as a lube, it is like water thin. The three have no problems yet and they autocross twice a month or more and drive the **** of of the cars during the nice weather seasons. My uncle is the one who told all of them what to do. He is a nuclear propulsion engineer and has PH.D from MIT and has raced cars for like 35 years so he knows way more than most of us can imagine.

[shim2]

ok i was being nice about the subs, i will not be having any of that in this car. I might put ac cause it gets hot out lol. As far as the rack, once you remove the seals ( or shall i say seal in the wrx rack), you dont need ps fluid at all, just high temp lube. My dad, uncle and good friend all de-powered like at least 5 years ago, and they just put a good lube in there. Ps fluid is made to work under pressure, not as a lube, it is like water thin. The three have no problems yet and they autocross twice a month or more and drive the **** of of the cars during the nice weather seasons. My uncle is the one who told all of them what to do. He is a nuclear propulsion engineer and has PH.D from MIT and has raced cars for like 35 years so he knows way more than most of us can imagine.

cool story

[el_jefe]

cool story


Most OEM's use ATF rather than specific power steering fluid anyway.

Also a cool story.

[Gary in NJ]

For a sub, just get the OEM under the seat subwoofer. if you're using the stock seat it'll fit. You could also fit a 8" between the two seats in a small enclosure.

Bazooka. I have a small BTA6100 (6" 100w) unit installed in my 240Z, plenty of low end for a small enclosure.

[NicksPapaw]

ok i was being nice about the subs, i will not be having any of that in this car. I might put ac cause it gets hot out lol. As far as the rack, once you remove the seals ( or shall i say seal in the wrx rack), you dont need ps fluid at all, just high temp lube. My dad, uncle and good friend all de-powered like at least 5 years ago, and they just put a good lube in there. Ps fluid is made to work under pressure, not as a lube, it is like water thin. The three have no problems yet and they autocross twice a month or more and drive the **** of of the cars during the nice weather seasons. My uncle is the one who told all of them what to do. He is a nuclear propulsion engineer and has PH.D from MIT and has raced cars for like 35 years so he knows way more than most of us can imagine.

Don't tell me that he depowered the steering in one of those Nuclear Submarines. If so, THAT would be a cool story. :p

[DrieStone]

http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac305/StockGC8/6%20Speed%20Swap%20Pics/0015spdvs6spd_resize.jpg
I'm beginning to think the 6spd will be hard to fit. I didn't realize it was that much larger than the 5spd

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know the distance from the centerline of the output shafts to the rear of the transmission?

[SkiRideDrive]

Don't tell me that he depowered the steering in one of those Nuclear Submarines. If so, THAT would be a cool story. :p Yea, you really need to be in touch with the slip angle of that rudder!

[Smitty911]

ok i was being nice about the subs, i will not be having any of that in this car. I might put ac cause it gets hot out lol. As far as the rack, once you remove the seals ( or shall i say seal in the wrx rack), you dont need ps fluid at all, just high temp lube. My dad, uncle and good friend all de-powered like at least 5 years ago, and they just put a good lube in there. Ps fluid is made to work under pressure, not as a lube, it is like water thin. The three have no problems yet and they autocross twice a month or more and drive the **** of of the cars during the nice weather seasons. My uncle is the one who told all of them what to do. He is a nuclear propulsion engineer and has PH.D from MIT and has raced cars for like 35 years so he knows way more than most of us can imagine.

Nuclear Propulsion Engineer, are we talking about moving atoms at a high rate of speed as in after "Critical Mass" has been acheived?

Never Trust a Nuke Sub person, something wrong with people who want to be under water, hot bunking, for 6 months. (I was a commercial diver and former US Marine, so I'm somewhat familiar with going down and staying down. :D)

Was working with a former Nuke Officer, Totally Anal retentive - but in a good way? Read "Blind Mans Bluff" seems we bumped a soviet sub once or
twice.

The size of that 6 speed vs the 5 speed is huge. The extra girth and webbing really beef that thing up, no wonder it won't fit.


Smitty

[shim2]

That's probably why they said you have to use either an impreza or wrx. STI comes with that monster and would make one donor car impossible.

[metalmaker12]

That's probably why they said you have to use either an impreza or wrx. STI comes with that monster and would make one donor car impossible.

Lololololololol, yea you all haters, just saying he knows his ****, anyway....

I like the go cart a lot so far and think it is going to be a very solid platform, I might even put a rudder on it to amuse you all. Lol no but I think we are all getting board here, and need to know what it is going to look like.

[Nuul]

Nuclear Propulsion Engineer, are we talking about moving atoms at a high rate of speed as in after "Critical Mass" has been acheived

I know it's a couple days late, but thanks for your service good sir. I worked with a submariner once, that guy had the best stories about shore leave :D

[shim2]

Lololololololol, yea you all haters, just saying he knows his ****, anyway....

I like the go cart a lot so far and think it is going to be a very solid platform, I might even put a rudder on it to amuse you all. Lol no but I think we are all getting board here, and need to know what it is going to look like.

Who's hating? Calm down. Why did you quote my post about the 6spd? I'm not sure how that's hate. I said that's probably why Factory Five didn't mention anything about the STI being a donor car because the 6spd is too large and wouldn't work, making the 818's one donor car goal impossible.

[csdilligaf]

It may not be engineered from F5 to take a 6mt but with a little work anything can be made to work. If it hangs out the rear a little and I have to open the rear valance and show off some sexy shocks, axles and trans I will do it. Tell me those can am cars did'nt look good from the back!

[slopoke]

+1!

[Smitty911]

I know it's a couple days late, but thanks for your service good sir. I worked with a submariner once, that guy had the best stories about shore leave :D

Of that I have no doubt. ;)

Smitty

[metalmaker12]

i measured my six speed to the 5spd and it is about 8 inches longer to where the rear diff bolts up

[kach22i]

i measured my six speed to the 5spd and it is about 8 inches longer to where the rear diff bolts up
That would be a huge difference on this car's rear overhang.

[StatGSR]

^ also saw today from a TR-42 build that the 6spd center diff housing cannot be removed and replaced by a flat plate like it can on the 5spd (well atleast not as easily at any rate), which makes it even longer...

source
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=37261586&postcount=894

[shim2]

^ also saw today from a TR-42 build that the 6spd center diff housing cannot be removed and replaced by a flat plate like it can on the 5spd (well atleast not as easily at any rate), which makes it even longer...

source
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=37261586&postcount=894

Well there you go. Thanks for that bit of info.

[07FIREBLADE]

Ok so it looks like the 6sp is out and wont be returning, but how about the H6, that with a 5sp is what i want..

[shim2]

Guess that'll be up for debate until someone tries to shove one in the 818.

[metalmaker12]

Ok so it looks like the 6sp is out and wont be returning, but how about the H6, that with a 5sp is what i want..
Can you enlighten me why you want a H6 compared to the fours, is it just your cup of tea? It might be reachable, but very tight from my observations of the go Kart. And for no real gain. The fours rev much faster and have more proven tuning solutions over the H6. I guess it is a thought, but could be a lot of extra work. I hope they give us some advise on this topic, in case we come across these motors cheaper etc..

[SkiRideDrive]

Can you enlighten me why you want a H6 compared to the fours, is it just your cup of tea? It might be reachable, but very tight from my observations of the go Kart. And for no real gain. The fours rev much faster and have more proven tuning solutions over the H6. I guess it is a thought, but could be a lot of extra work. I hope they give us some advise on this topic, in case we come across these motors cheaper etc..

I think some people are fond of naturally aspirated motors. Also, the sound of the H6 is pretty addicting.

[Xusia]

I'm someone who would very much like an H6 with the 5mt, and my reasons are as follows:
*More linear throttle response & power curve (this is the #1 reason)
*Higher torque
*More displacement to work with, generally means easier to get more hp out of
*Sound
*The donors that contain the H6 are more family oriented, so finding one is good shape should theoretically be easier AND cheaper (WRX's, even wrecked ones, command a premium over similarly equipped Legacys, Outbacks, etc.)

It mostly boils down to the turbo - I don't like them (never have - and YES I have driven turbos). I don't like the way they produce power. I don't like how finicky they can be. I don't like the extra piping and such in the engine bay. They are just more complicated and more hassle to me than they are worth.

That said, the path to using an H6 in the 818 looks like a very steep, uphill climb, fraught with jagged rocks and cliffs. Therefore, I am not likely to do it. I'm sure I'll be happy with a turbo EJ. Just not AS happy...

[07FIREBLADE]

Xusia nailed it rigt on the head. More of a challenge to put it in. Which is one of the things I like to take head on. Not greatly fond of turbos. If I was to go forced induction I would prefer a supercharger. Plus the H6 is just so intoxicating to listen to. I'm not gonna lie and neither should you lol...

[fateo66]

After watching the videos I noticed that I don't see a front or a rear sway bar connected to the usual spots. Did any one else catch that or any other little observations?

[PhyrraM]

If I recall my reading correctly, most suspension designers design as close as possible to the goal without a sway bar, then the bar can be used to fine tune certain parameters. On a very light car like the 818, it's easier to accomplish many goal before resorting to things like sway bars.

For example, on a very heavy car good ride quality usually means softer springs - but that induces sway. On the 818, soft springs can be used without nearly as much roll to keep under control.

I noticed, as mentioned in another thread, the non-donor instrument cluster. The rear 'strut-to-control arm adapter' is a very complex piece, performing many duties. The steering rack appear to be rotated so the 'input' from the wheel is more parallel to the ground. Even without proper shrouding and at the extreme mounting angle, the radiator appear to have plenty of airflow - as eveidenced by the fans self rotating at a good clip in the airstream.

[PhyrraM]

From the 2012 June open house video:


The stock WRX TR seat has been replaced with a racing seat of some type.
Torque strut on top of transmission is not being used. (possibly contributing to the excessive motor movement in the video?)
Small battery mounted in front between footwells.
Uses the factory brake booster (for the moment)
Temperature is VERY hot in first driving scene, but goes down later.
Factory radiator (of course), fans, overflow, and mounting clamps.

I'll see more later, I'm sure.

[PhyrraM]

Factory 3 point seatbelt in the passenger position on the latest photos. 5 point harness on drivers side.

Still trying to decide if the current version of the front upper control arms have enough adjustment to accomodate both widths of lower control arms.

Also noticed that the lengthwise brace between the seats has dissappeared.

[apexanimal]

^ isn't the difference between the two about .5"?

if so, they appear to have enough threads just showing to do that...

[RM1SepEx]

The CAD graphic shows two small "bumps" welded onto the roll bar of the R version
The go kart has a regular "flat across the top" roll hoop
I don't know of any racing organization that allows such a configuration

in both configurations it doesn't appear to be tall enough


Thoughts?

[RonSchofield]

What are the plans for bumpers? NY and other provinces in Canada require them.

[flytosail]

Same thing for those of us with front license plate requirements.