H6 3.0 Reality or complete nonsense?

[Smitty911]

Well, it's getting closer to launch 6 - 9 months from now the kits will start shipping. In the mean time, lots to work out and take into consideration.

Being that the H6 3.0 is only 0.8" longer than the four, it might fit quite nicely without changing to much. Looking at a Stripped down H6 3.0 http://www.sponaugle.com/nasioc/H6Buildup-31.jpg Shows some rather large oval intake ports, and tons of items removed during his rebuild.

So the silly question is:
1. Strip off all the factory non-sense, leaving Alternator (Custom Bracket and New Belt)
2. Use a set of these http://www.extrudabody.com/servlet/the-164/Kit-cln--Porsche-911/Detail
3. Stand alone ECU - any source (Megasquirt?)

That would take care of any Auto to Manual Transmission issues, maintain the AVCS (ECU detail), cleans up the engine bay quite nicely, complete control of fuel spark, etc. etc. etc.

The Fuel injection would need custom intake plates/manifold (no biggy, I have a small CNC mill in the garage) and cable linkage from Extrudabody takes care of that.

Removes all of the complicated wiring that will have to take place and reduces it to motor sensor to ECU and basic lighting and gauges.

Cost of a long block would offset the added cost of all the factory parts and reduce some issues. Although in SoCal, registration might get interesting.

No I'm not smoking anything - I don't believe in "Better Living Though Chemistry"

Thoughts?

Smitty

Smitty

[Smitty911]

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=959768

Here is PDX Tunings build up of their Turbo'd monster.

Smitty

[skullandbones]

I like the change from "glass half empty" to "glass half full" approach. Beautiful pic of the bare short block. I could get into that! It looks like the aftermarket stuff is quite pricey. I would have to do my own fabbing of an intake but it would be worth it. The dieting of the wiring would really clean up the engine bay. What about the exhaust manifolds. They look cast but could be alum. If the weight is not too much different, it should be ok. Thanks, WEK.

[PhyrraM]

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=959768

Take a look at the pic with the H6 installed in the car. The stock radiator is in the stock location. I cannot tell if the stock radiator fans are installed.

[Smitty911]

Skullandbones,

Looking at the time and cost of working around the wiring issues, ECU issues, added weight of all the factory tubes, fittings etc. etc. should NET a cost reduction, as well as time to get running. Intake manifolds would have to be made or just a sand cast with some cleanup or hell a Billet Intake is really do-able. So you're into the intake and ECU (Megasquirt on the low side) for like $2,000.00 ($1,500 kit, $500 Megasquirt).

The exhaust coming off the head is of course aluminum, so a nice thick flange plate to make a header off should be pretty easy. A tuned exhaust EL or UEL would make a very nice sounding ride, with the ability to tone down the exhaust note to your liking.

So I figure a rough order of magnitude cost for a running H6 3.0 in the $4,000 range. Call it $900 for a long block, rebuild for $1,500ish add the $2,000 intake and $500 for exhaust. Power UNKNOWN.

Just some thoughts, subject to correction from more knowledgeable folks.

Smitty

[Smitty911]

Take a look at the pic with the H6 installed in the car. The stock radiator is in the stock location. I cannot tell if the stock radiator fans are installed.

PhyrraM,

It appears to be in the stock location, although I have read were they use Pusher Fans instead of the factory ones. That really won't be an issue with the 818 :D

I'm having trouble finding aftermarket parts for the 3.0 I think a bump in the compression would be nice if your in the motor anyway. Some Port work to clean up the flow on the exhaust looks to be money well spent. Not sure what can be done with the Cams or if they need to be addressed in the first place.

The intake would have to be fabbed of course so the height might get interesting, but that is also tune able with height. I forget which direction higher or lower impacts Torque or HP.

Smitty

[StatGSR]

Why are you so worried about the intake manifold? Just use the stocker. Also the exhaust manifolds for the ez30d and the ez30r are completely different. The d has single port heads, the r has tri-ports, you could make custom or use factory in either case though.

[StatGSR]

Take a look at the pic with the H6 installed in the car. The stock radiator is in the stock location. I cannot tell if the stock radiator fans are installed.

Not the stock fans but standard slim fans in the normal location. You can see them in a pic in that thread.

[Smitty911]

Why are you so worried about the intake manifold? Just use the stocker. Also the exhaust manifolds for the ez30d and the ez30r are completely different. The d has single port heads, the r has tri-ports, you could make custom or use factory in either case though.

StatGSR,

Good point on the intake, I believe the injectors are in the head correct? so the manifold Trottle body et al could still be cleaned up and alot removed?

That would save about $1,500 on the swap, so is it doable?

Here is the link to the thread, they build it (only new pistons - Low comp) add turbo and start tuning. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=959768

Smitty

[Xusia]

I love the idea of using the H6. Close to STi power levels with no turbo lag or turbo hassle. I also believe donors will be both cheaper and in generally better condition - another plus. Assuming it can fit, the only real issue I see is the conversion from auto to manual transmission (on the ECU side). Did ANY of the cars that come with an H6 (preferably the EZ36 ones) come with a manual transmission as an option? If so, it would indicate the ECU can handle a manual transmission,and perhaps only a programming change would be necessary? For I'd like to keep the engine as stock as possible (which means avoiding any aftermarket intakes, engine management, etc.).

[PhyrraM]

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2299743

This thread is the only one I know about to get the EZ30R working with a manual transmission using factory engine management. Every other H6 conversion I have read about either kept the automatic or went stand alone.

There was no H6s to ever come to North America with a manual transmission, so his solution was to import an ECU and possibly other stuff too. Give it a read, it's nice work. I'm just not sure how far each of us is willing to go for our 818s.

[Smitty911]

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2299743

This thread is the only one I know about to get the EZ30R working with a manual transmission using factory engine management. Every other H6 conversion I have read about either kept the automatic or went stand alone.

There was no H6s to ever come to North America with a manual transmission, so his solution was to import an ECU and possibly other stuff too. Give it a read, it's nice work. I'm just not sure how far each of us is willing to go for our 818s.

Well here is one solution (UK ECU, US BUI, US Immobilizer chip, UK key, and UK ignition cylinder) this worked on his build. Great read, he definatly has some skills the custom exhaust looked good. I'd like a lower pitch but I'm old.

His listed cost.

1500 for the engine
500 for the seats
700 or so for the interior
650 for uk ecu/etc
prob 700 or so for exhaust components

He didn't add the Key and Wiring Loom and a few other items.

I'm still thinking strip out all the extras and use a stand alone ECU. Looks like the Cams are controlled by Oil Pressure so that's a non-issue. All the other sensor (oil pressue, water temp, anti-knock, crank position (or is it cam), etc.

In California the Emissions related items will be a chore depending on the registration and what year they give it or does the matter? I'll check on what the GTM folks are doing.

Still digging but here is some information about the process. http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?5550-The-california-registration-process-for-SB100

The search button is your friend. Looks like the 818 does not resemble at pre-1974 car that I'm aware of so it defaults to Model-Year of motor. Darn, there goes the stand alone option.


Smitty

[Xusia]

Subaru's site says the Outback and Legacy - both of which use the H6 (from 2010 on) - have a manual transmission option. Are you saying that's not for the US? http://www.subaru.com/engineering/transmission.html

[PhyrraM]

Subaru's site says the Outback and Legacy - both of which use the H6 (from 2010 on) - have a manual transmission option. Are you saying that's not for the US? http://www.subaru.com/engineering/transmission.html

Unless something changed for the newest models, the manual has only been offered with the base 4 cylinder and the turbo 4 cylinder. The 6 cylinders have always defaulted to the auto.

[Smitty911]

Subaru's site says the Outback and Legacy - both of which use the H6 (from 2010 on) - have a manual transmission option. Are you saying that's not for the US? http://www.subaru.com/engineering/transmission.html

Xusia,

When you go to the site, and "Build your own" they all seem to have the Automatic as the only option for 2012.

Damn, that would have saved some time.

The truly sad part is all the various Option you can get. 4 different Key Fobs, 7 different lisc plate holders, heated cup holders, etc. etc. but a standard trans, NOPE.

Smitty

[riptide motorsport]

thats funny!

[StatGSR]

Subaru's site says the Outback and Legacy - both of which use the H6 (from 2010 on) - have a manual transmission option. Are you saying that's not for the US? http://www.subaru.com/engineering/transmission.html

no we are just saying its not an option for the 6 bangers. yes it still remains an option on all 4 banger Subaru...

[skullandbones]

Xusia,

When you go to the site, and "Build your own" they all seem to have the Automatic as the only option for 2012.

Damn, that would have saved some time.

The truly sad part is all the various Option you can get. 4 different Key Fobs, 7 different lisc plate holders, heated cup holders, etc. etc. but a standard trans, NOPE.

Smitty

I know it sounds like they are giving you a lot of options but it looks like they are marketing to a more sudate crowd and customer that would be looking for the custom cup holders and other luxury items and little creature comfort gadgets. The manual trans doesn't really fit that marketing strategy IMO. WEK.

[Xusia]

My point is that it would tend to mean the ECU supports using a manual transmission, because even if manuals are foreign models it seems unlikely they would use a different ECU. I mean, they sell autos in Europe as well as manual transmissions, right? So why use 1 ECU for Europe (one that supports both transmission types) and another for the US (that only supports autos)?? That just seems plain silly.

Therefore, if I'm right, it should be as simple as flashing the ECU with the proper code. Now getting the proper code is another matter...

[PhyrraM]

......it should be as simple as flashing the ECU with the proper code. Now getting the proper code is another matter...

It's the proper fuel that's the issue - that code might not not exsist. If it was the turbo models, the ECU has been cracked and the code can be created. I'm not sure of any progress (or event attempts) for the H6.

[Smitty911]

Good point, but they have done this in the past, hinch the work around posted above.

So you'll still need ECU,BUI, Immobilizer chip, key, and ignition cylinder that's going to add up well beyond a stand alone unit.

Smitty

[StatGSR]

My point is that it would tend to mean the ECU supports using a manual transmission, because even if manuals are foreign models it seems unlikely they would use a different ECU. I mean, they sell autos in Europe as well as manual transmissions, right? So why use 1 ECU for Europe (one that supports both transmission types) and another for the US (that only supports autos)?? That just seems plain silly.

Therefore, if I'm right, it should be as simple as flashing the ECU with the proper code. Now getting the proper code is another matter...

Different countries have substantially different emissions regulations which makes it extremely difficult to have a single global ECU, on top of that different countries even use different qualities of gas. Manufactures have had different ecus for different markets since the days of OBD1.

[Xusia]

Is it the actual ECU (which is the chip) or the code (software) the ECU runs and associated maps? We know the ECU is programmable (i.e. you can access and change the maps), so unless the code that runs the ECU is somehow locked, the ECU itself should be the same. Having different physical hardware to deal with what is in reality small variations that are easily dealt with via software, is generally more costly and doesn't make sense.

[StatGSR]

Is it the actual ECU (which is the chip) or the code (software) the ECU runs and associated maps? We know the ECU is programmable (i.e. you can access and change the maps), so unless the code that runs the ECU is somehow locked, the ECU itself should be the same. Having different physical hardware to deal with what is in reality small variations that are easily dealt with via software, is generally more costly and doesn't make sense.

well that makes sense, but since the code hasn't been hacked for the EZ ecus, we cannot change the maps and are therefore at the mercy of what has already been programed onto the ecu.

[Xusia]

Ahhhh...

[Exidous]

Standalone anyone? I know sdsefi makes one for the H6. They have EG33 and EZ30 support.

[Smitty911]

Standalone anyone? I know sdsefi makes one for the H6.

They sure do, but it's 1,500.00 and doesn't meet any smog issues. They were my first thought.

California doesn't like people messing with Factory settings. Like it makes that big of a deal. They should be working to reduce our 19 BILLION Dollar budget shortage.

Smitty

[StatGSR]

^ no standalone will meet any smog issues. The only way to meet smog with a stand alone is to cheat...

[StatGSR]

Standalone anyone? I know sdsefi makes one for the H6. They have EG33 and EZ30 support.

Does it actually come with a basemap? I see it has been used with them in airplanes, but that's not exactly the same and i didn't see any more detail about it being used in an ez30'd car. Its worth spending atleast $400 more on an EM that includes a basemap, tuning from nothing is a time consuming thing, and if your not your own tuner, tuning isn't cheap.

i think Link ECU has ez30 basemaps available.
i know they show you how to wire the AVCS.. http://www.linkecu.com/support/documentation/technical-drawings/G10

[RM1SepEx]

size wize if it is just .8 inch moving the engine and trans back 1 inch should not be a big deal. This is a kit car the cv joints will just always be offset by 1 inch fore and aft vs being aligned as it is in the 4 banger. Custom mounts should be easy... How would that affect the life of the CV joints? I don't know. I have to believe that someone could megasquirt that big boy and get some serious get up and go.

Personally my 2 liter, 05 WRX motor just needs a couple simple "tweeks" to hit my goal:
10 lbs per fully loaded HP.

2200 lbs fully loaded, 2 passenger GVW, 220 WHP
:-) Yee Haa

[Smitty911]

Does it actually come with a basemap? I see it has been used with them in airplanes, but that's not exactly the same and i didn't see any more detail about it being used in an ez30'd car. Its worth spending atleast $400 more on an EM that includes a basemap, tuning from nothing is a time consuming thing, and if your not your own tuner, tuning isn't cheap.

i think Link ECU has ez30 basemaps available.
i know they show you how to wire the AVCS.. http://www.linkecu.com/support/documentation/technical-drawings/G10

Several people who own Porsche 914 has set up the SDSEFI for thier bigger motors, up to around 180hp on a 2270. Basically a stroked and bored 2.0. Most have done thier own tuning of the sds and have gotten some great results. If the site wasn't currently under a DNS attack I'd link some threads.

From what I understand, the programmer control box rides along with you and with a Wide Band you can make adjustments on the fly and while data logging. To get the last 5-10% out of it you might want a Dyno Tune.

Smitty

[Exidous]

Does it actually come with a basemap? I see it has been used with them in airplanes, but that's not exactly the same and i didn't see any more detail about it being used in an ez30'd car. Its worth spending atleast $400 more on an EM that includes a basemap, tuning from nothing is a time consuming thing, and if your not your own tuner, tuning isn't cheap.

i think Link ECU has ez30 basemaps available.
i know they show you how to wire the AVCS.. http://www.linkecu.com/support/documentation/technical-drawings/G10

It does. Microtech also comes with one based on the EZ30 map to give you a place to start.

[Smitty911]

I have to ask the silly question.

If the ECU of the H6 is expecting a sensor readings from the Auto Tranny, how difficult would it be to whip up a board that "Fakes" it? Add the factory connector with jumpers or what ever and Viola, problem sovled.

I work in Fiber Optics so I have no clue about electrons, I do photons.

Smitty

[Xusia]

That should work. I think the main point is that not much community development has been done (unlike the 4 cylinder engines) so someone would have to the reverse engineering necessary to produce such a part. Right now the "solution" is to use aftermarket engine management, which actually is fairly affordable, so why bother with the initial effort?

[prematureapex]

That should work. I think the main point is that not much community development has been done (unlike the 4 cylinder engines) so someone would have to the reverse engineering necessary to produce such a part. Right now the "solution" is to use aftermarket engine management, which actually is fairly affordable, so why bother with the initial effort?

Why, for throttle response and linear power delivery of course!

[leetfade]

Most aftermarket stand-alone units can account for this. The piggy backs would have an issue, however, but I believe it's already been mentioned as an option about getting a JDM / EDM ECU as a replacement to utilize a piggy back if desired.

I'm wondering how something like a Haltech Sprint 500 would fair.

I'm curious on that option now, Smitty. I wish I had a H6 in-house. I'd get one of my mechanics on it just for testing. Hell we could sell the boards! But I think Xusia is right. By the time you get all the R&D done, buy the mats, and fab it together, it's hard to say that you could sell it cheap enough to warrant not jumping to the stand alone which gives you a LOT more options. But if you could get the boards done for the $2-300 range I can see that being a preferred alternative.

[Xusia]

Why, for throttle response and linear power delivery of course!

LOL - I wasn't saying why both with an H6! In fact, I would prefer that to a turbo 4. I saying why bother with the reverse engineering effort when a reasonably priced alternative (aftermarket engine management) exists.

[Xusia]

Most aftermarket stand-alone units can account for this. The piggy backs would have an issue, however, but I believe it's already been mentioned as an option about getting a JDM / EDM ECU as a replacement to utilize a piggy back if desired.

I'm wondering how something like a Haltech Sprint 500 would fair.

I'm curious on that option now, Smitty. I wish I had a H6 in-house. I'd get one of my mechanics on it just for testing. Hell we could sell the boards! But I think Xusia is right. By the time you get all the R&D done, buy the mats, and fab it together, it's hard to say that you could sell it cheap enough to warrant not jumping to the stand alone which gives you a LOT more options. But if you could get the boards done for the $2-300 range I can see that being a preferred alternative.

Knowing a bit about electronics, false (or "fake out") circuitry shouldn't cost much at all to produce. The real investment is the time to reverse engineer the proper signals to send the ECU and under what conditions. I've seen similar devices on motorcycles sell for $40 - $100, and unless there is something really unique about Subaru engines & ECUs, a similar device for them should be able to be produced in that same price range. Obviously, the more time invested in reverse engineering, the more they would have to sell for, but still - $200 or less seems like an easily obtainable target.

[Smitty911]

LOL - I wasn't saying why both with an H6! In fact, I would prefer that to a turbo 4. I saying why bother with the reverse engineering effort when a reasonably priced alternative (aftermarket engine management) exists.

There is a Very Real Problem with aftermarket EFI, which I would actually prefer to use. Califonia SMOG LAWS. That trumps the stand alone issue.

I don't think I'd be able to go stand alone (SDI, MegaSquirt, Haltech, etc. etc) and still pass the Smog Laws here.

What kind of signal could possibly be coming from the Tranny, speed? fluid temp? gear? it could also be what is being sent.

But I work with Photons not electrons, so I have no clue. I did stay at a Holiday Inn once and have a 16 channel O-Scope if we need to monitor something.

Smitty

[Smitty911]

Knowing a bit about electronics, false (or "fake out") circuitry shouldn't cost much at all to produce. The real investment is the time to reverse engineer the proper signals to send the ECU and under what conditions. I've seen similar devices on motorcycles sell for $40 - $100, and unless there is something really unique about Subaru engines & ECUs, a similar device for them should be able to be produced in that same price range. Obviously, the more time invested in reverse engineering, the more they would have to sell for, but still - $200 or less seems like an easily obtainable target.

$200 is alot less that the $1,200 to $1,500ish for stand alone. Than you have also cornered a market.

Smitty

[Xusia]

$200 is alot less that the $1,200 to $1,500ish for stand alone. Than you have also cornered a market.

Smitty

That's not an apples to apples comparison though. Supposedly you get a lot more features with aftermarket engine management systems.

Personally, I'm with you though. I'd rather have the stock system and not have to fiddle - or deal with the potential problems associated - with an aftermarket system. If such a device existed, I would most likely be a customer.

[Smitty911]

Ok, so I'm starting to contact some people about similairty. I'm sure they didn't start from scratch with the ECU for the H6.

Xusia.

One thing is just a wiring work around, loop back connector? I'll have to look at a wiring schematic and talk to some smart people.


Smitty

[Xusia]

Awesome! Please report back. I am very interested!

[Smitty911]

Here is the pinouts of the ECU. What they mean is beyond me. A man should know his limits, even if he reaches beyond them. HA

Smitty

980898099810

[Xusia]

That's beyond my knowledge as well. It looks like a combination of pin out information as well as electrical signaling. Notice how in the 3rd image the signal values are reversed for automatic vs. manual transmission? Very interesting...

[Smitty911]

Well if all it takes is a constant 12 volt input, what's all the fuss been about? It also appears that that is for a four cyclinder, one of the pages I was looking at only showed 4 injector pulse thingyies.

Smitty

Found these also.
9817

[Smitty911]

981898179819

Sorry, it was a size issue, seems they were to big.

Smitty

[Smitty911]

Under the "Can't believe everything you read on the Internet" files. Wikipedia Listing for Subaru Motors

Subaru EZ engine
Subaru EZ36The (Japanese: Subaru EZ series) was introduced in 1999 in the Japanese market, in the Subaru Outback, and in 2000 in the United States market. It is a flat-six, 24-valve, quad cam motor with an aluminium block and heads. The number of exhaust ports per cylinder varies. It is available in EZ30 and EZ36 variants. The later EZ30D used from 2003 to 2009 was heavily updated from the early EZ30D used from 2001 to 2003. It received new cylinder heads with 3 exhaust ports per head and variable intake valve timing. All use dual timing chains and coil-on-plug ignition.

EZ30D: 2999 cc DOHC, 220ps (161 kW) @6000 rpm, 289Nm@4400 rpm. Bore 89.2 mm, Stroke 80 mm. Compression 10.7:1. This version uses one exhaust port per head, a cable throttle, variable intake geometry, cast aluminium intake manifold, and has a 6500 rpm rev limit. It was only available with an automatic transmission. Found in the 2000–2002 Outback H6, Legacy GT30 and Legacy Lancaster 6.

EZ30D: 2999CC DOHC, 245ps (180 kW) @6600 rpm, 297Nm@4200 rpm. Bore 89.2 mm, Stroke 80 mm. Compression 10.7:1. This version had one exhaust port per cylinder, a drive-by-wire throttle, a black plastic intake manifold, VVL and AVCS. It was available in manual and automatic unlike the old EZ30D. Found in the 2003–2009 Legacy 3.0R, Outback 3.0R and 2006–2008 Tribeca.

EZ36D: 3629CC DOHC, 260ps (191 kW) @6000 rpm, 335Nm@4400 rpm. Bore 92 mm, Stroke 91 mm. Compression 10.5:1. Found in the 2010-current Legacy, Outback and 2008-current Tribeca. The EZ36D incorporates possibly the only implementation of an asymmetrical connecting rod in a modern application. The offset connecting rod was designed to allow additional displacement from the same exterior dimensions.[12]

So whoever posted on Wiki may have been refrencing the Japan Market. So it could be just tracking down some "odd" cars that made it's way here. Maybe a phone call to Subaru of America.

Smitty

[leetfade]

There are a few issues with just doing a wiring jumper.

I believe the newer Subarus with the H6 have the immobilizer, key and ECU all tied together with a code. If that's the case, you would need to have all 3 from the same vehicle, the VIN and a dealer willing to flash it, or someway to bypass it all. The other option being the JDM / EDM ecus which have been mentioned which are more lax on all that.

I do not believe you'd be able to take a USDM ECU w/o the matching key and immobilizer. Seems like there would have to be a way to bypass the immobilizer feature too, though.

On the auto ECU it's just jumping the transmission position sensor and the neutral safety switch when the immobilizer isn't in play. Usually..

[Smitty911]

There are a few issues with just doing a wiring jumper.

I believe the newer Subarus with the H6 have the immobilizer, key and ECU all tied together with a code. If that's the case, you would need to have all 3 from the same vehicle, the VIN and a dealer willing to flash it, or someway to bypass it all. The other option being the JDM / EDM ecus which have been mentioned which are more lax on all that.

I do not believe you'd be able to take a USDM ECU w/o the matching key and immobilizer. Seems like there would have to be a way to bypass the immobilizer feature too, though.

On the auto ECU it's just jumping the transmission position sensor and the neutral safety switch when the immobilizer isn't in play. Usually..

Leetfade,

Good information, but if you were buying a wreacked car it will have all that fun stuff in it. Than once you sell off all the non-sense you can buy a manual and bolt it up, Right????

Smitty

[leetfade]

They don't always have the keys, unfortunately. I have looked at quite a few auctions and not all have keys. Granted, you could always just get a donor that had it all with it. ;)

In theory, if you purchased something from IAAI or CoPart that had keys, ecu, etc etc (most will have an icon that says "Starts" or "Runs and Drives"), you should be able to jumper the neutral safety switch and transmission position sensor. In theory. The only kicker is if there is some kind of sensor on the auto transmission itself that is also tied into the code of the other 3 parts. That's where that board would come in and it would seem like it should be easily tricked.

The majority of those sensors are relay oriented and just need the circuit held open.

[Smitty911]

They don't always have the keys, unfortunately. I have looked at quite a few auctions and not all have keys. Granted, you could always just get a donor that had it all with it. ;)

In theory, if you purchased something from IAAI or CoPart that had keys, ecu, etc etc (most will have an icon that says "Starts" or "Runs and Drives"), you should be able to jumper the neutral safety switch and transmission position sensor. In theory. The only kicker is if there is some kind of sensor on the auto transmission itself that is also tied into the code of the other 3 parts. That's where that board would come in and it would seem like it should be easily tricked.

The majority of those sensors are relay oriented and just need the circuit held open.

Well there you go SOLUTION to using a H6. Now will all the suspension and brake stuff work from an Legacy 3.0R, Outback 3.0R and 2006–2008 Tribeca?

Damn, never as easy as it seems. ;)

Smitty

[RM1SepEx]

If it were easy it wouldn't be as much fun...

[riptide motorsport]

I'm just plain old lost!!!!!!!

[Smitty911]

I'm just plain old lost!!!!!!!

Not to be a pain, I think we need a list of items to be concerned about and possible solutions.

California Smog Laws - This is the only reason I can't run a stand alone ECU or this would be a non-issue. I still want the H6 though.

So that means one of two things - I bite the bullet and get a WRX 2.5 Turbo Single Donar (hate Turbo's, maybe I'll take my F-150 down to the Subaru dealer after work and drive one.) or figure a way to use the H6.

We know we need the running gear from an 2002-2007 Subaru Impreza or WRX. This will provide the Running Gear and SOME interior parts. The H6 was from the Legacy 3.0R, Outback 3.0R and 2006–2008 Tribeca, so if the running gear IE Brakes, Spindles, Rack, etc. etc. can be used from one of them along with the Motor and wiring harness, than all we have to do is add a Manual Transmission - Viola - H6 818.

The other method would be to source the Impreza parts and add the wiring harness, immobilizer, key and ECU from a Legacy, Outback or Tribeca.

Clear as mud, right?

So who are the Subaru Parts compatability experts?

Smitty

[leetfade]

Well I would caution you on driving a stock EJ25 WRX. I just got rid of my 2011 WRX (lemon law.. figures I get the one bad one!). It was spikey at best. The drive by wire is frustrating.... These motors, however, are VERY responsive to modifications.

I would recommend finding someone with a Stage II EJ25. It is a night and day difference! Extremely responsive, good top end and even decent MPG!

I do not believe the WRX brakes / suspension components are consistent with the Outback / Tribeca, etc. The Legacy would be the closest I could think of. However, the standard Legacy is more of a family sedan and the GT shares a drive-train with the STI. I do believe they said the STI parts won't work, correct?

I have to believe the axles would be different between the H6 and the H4 as well. I'm sure someone on here knows for sure, though.

[skullandbones]

Wouldn't it be easy to fabricate a hybrid axle H6 stuff on the inside and other donor on the outside)? It would probably be no more complicated than shortening a drive shaft for a shop if you give them the correct measurements (cost app: $250 to $300). WEK.

[leetfade]

I'm sure that would be on the least of the worries, I was just mentioning the axles since he was asking about parts that were consistent between the WRX and the H6 donors. Hell they may be the same but I would be pretty surprised.

[Smitty911]

So getting New Parts for a work around.

IGNITION LOCK CYLINDER Legacy/Outback; Manual Trans; w/immobilizer
MSRP Core ? Online Price
$193.55 $0.00 $174.20

IGNITION immobilizer MODULE Legacy/Outback
MSRP Core ? Online Price
$33.08 $0.00 $29.77

Looks like I'll have to stop by the local dealership and talk to the parts and service people for price and re-flashing cost. The local is also a Caddy dealer, so I can't take the wife, she wants the new STS.

Smitty

[leetfade]

I'm not convinced I can't get around it. I was actually talking about it with one of my mechanics last night...

If you get the full car it should have the above pieces you mentioned. You would just swap them over. Then it's just a matter of re-routing a few wires to keep the circuit open. You would just need to make the decision if you want to have to have the clutch depressed to start it. I tend to recommend this as I like to park in gear and can see myself starting it, in gear, without the clutch in... Yikes!

[PhyrraM]

It's not just about starting it. That is the easy part.

Modern automatics and engines have a lot of inter-relationships. On most modern cars, the same ECU operates both. I'm not sure about the Subaru, I haven't had time to look it up. When the transmission does things, the engine is expected to respond, and vice versa. Torque is reduced for shifts, RPMs get matched, timing changes, torque convertors need to unlock, etc. Lots of little stuff happens behind the scenes. It's one of the major reasons that todays automatics are so good and return excellent economy compared to manuals. If "one side" (the transmission ECU) no longer sends requests and answers, the other side (the engine ECU) may well not be able to function without setting codes, going into limp modes, etc.

[leetfade]

I need to find some funds to get a donor to play around with this. We have done auto > manual conversions before without issues. But, you're right, newer technology creates more difficulties in this realm.

[StatGSR]

I think PhyrraM hit it on the head.

also, if you want to know what problems are out there for the guys using oem equipment, look for guys that have done the auto to manual swap in the original car. those are the guys that know what kind of problems you can have even when you have every oem piece in place and you know you didn't mess something up during the wiring. I want to say engine codes and poor idle are common.

[Smitty911]

I think PhyrraM hit it on the head.

also, if you want to know what problems are out there for the guys using oem equipment, look for guys that have done the auto to manual swap in the original car. those are the guys that know what kind of problems you can have even when you have every oem piece in place and you know you didn't mess something up during the wiring. I want to say engine codes and poor idle are common.

Thankfully I shouldn't be at idle to long. ;)

PhyrraM is right about the synergy between the motor and tranny in todays automatics. It's not like they make it easy to figure out or even where to find the information to work around the issue.

Looks like investing in the factory repair manuals might be the only way. I've read most of the post at Naosic about the swaps, most of the important information is lost in the 70+ pages of "good going", "Pictures?", etc.

I'll take a chance on gleaning information from those that have done the swap and hopefully get a better picture of what's involved.

Smitty

[leetfade]

Yeah I want to try and do some digging regarding what signals are actually sent between the transmission and the ECU. If anyone finds a good reference to that, let me know! If we can find a way to replicate the signals properly, I can see a market for a jumper board to ease this swap.

I'm not saying it 100% can be done, but I like the challenge of it. ;-)

[305mouse]

A popular mod for the SVX crowd is to swap in a STI 6mt. Obviously the h6 in the SVX is different then what we would want to try. However, What about using the ECU, wiring harness and sensors out of an SVX with the newer H6. I have seen enough junked SVX's that you might be able to get all that pretty cheap. Am I just under simplifying it? There has to be more to it, right?

[PhyrraM]

While I don't know all the details, I know that virtually all the newer sensors are incompatable with what the older ECUs are looking for. Even the number (and relative rotational location of) cam and crank pulses has changed over the years.

IMHO, the ONLY reason to attempt to maintain a factory ECU on a H6 > manual conversion would be for state related emmission requirements. If that is the case, a SVX ECU will not help you as most were OBDI ('91-'95), and the OBD2 years ('96-'97) are very hard to find and likely still have some of the same problems

[Xusia]

^ What about just plain wanting to avoid the expense and other hassles that come from using stand alone engine management? Does an aftermarket engine management system support AVCS (which I understood the newer H6's have - I could be wrong). OEM ECU & harness support all that with no hassles. It seems to me it would just be easier to figure out how to make the existing ECU work with the manual (which it does in other countries, so it should be doable).

[skullandbones]

^ How complicated could the circuitry to the manual trans be anyway? It does sound like a easier problem to solve. Is there anyone who has a gestimate as to the type of data that would be picked up by the ECU? Thanks, WEK.

Note: I did a check with a transmission specialist I know and he agreed that the switchover should not be an issue except with the ECU not having the signal from the auto trans may result in a warning light which could be problematic (emissions).

[PhyrraM]

While looking for a factory wiring manual I ran across this:

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=f8b4a3bb68649f6a664b6dc458fe074f&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.subaruoutback.org%2Fforums%2F 66-problems-maintenance%2F15724-free-factory-service-manual-download-links-6.html&v=1&libid=1337984297819&out=http%3A%2F%2Fphantomotaku.com%2FSVX%2F011822-MSA5P0631C.pdf&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26r ct%3Dj%26q%3D2010%2520subaru%2520service%2520manua l%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D2%26sqi%3D2%26ved%3D0CKkBE KwCKAIwAQ%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.subaruout back.org%252Fforums%252F66-problems-maintenance%252F15724-free-factory-service-manual-download-links-6.html%26ei%3DQwTAT7zuEoWRiAKux434Bw%26usg%3DAFQjC NH_ajA1Yjyhb_i8bvriZBRi3tjGoA&title=Free%20factory%20service%20manual%20download %20links.%20-%20Page%206%20-%20Subaru%20Outback%20-%20Subaru%20Outback%20Forums&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fphantomotaku.com%2FSVX%2F011822-MSA5P0631C.pdf&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13379881847967

Give a good brief of the 3 major EZ motors.

As far as electrical, the later H6s all have a seperate TCM and ECM, which is good. The two communicate with a CANBUS interface, which means that simple jumpers (like SVXs use when 5-speed swapped) are out. Fooling the ECU into thinking that an automatic is still behind it just got harder.

[StatGSR]

^ epic find man!

[ROB-RST]

What's the issue with stand alones and California emissions, is it the OBD sniffer?

I'd love to have a street registered 818 here in Australia but it'll probably be too difficult. Have to pass an emissions test (IM240) for the year of vehicle manufacture, not engine manufacture. Also Euro 5 will be introduced late next year :(

[PhyrraM]

I've gone over most of the H6 diagrams. I did not go over the early 2000-2004ish ones because @200ish HP they don't interest me (lowest turbo 4 is 227). My focus was on the 3.0R and 3.6 motors.

All of the 'better' H6s are CANBUS and electronic throttle. Here are some observations on what must be figured out and tackled. It is by no means a complete list or to be considered gospel, just a quick overview from my perspective.

First, the Engine ECU does not recieve a speed sensor signal directly. It most likely recieves this over the CANBUS from either the auto-transmission ECU (tranny sensors) or the ABS/traction control ECU (wheel sensors). Maybe both? The speedometer in the cluster also seems to get its ECM info (speed, fuel level, temp, etc) through the CANBUS.

Whatever inter-relationships the Engine ECU and the Tranny ECU have (might as well add the Traction control ECU too), they communicate through the CANBUS network.

The coded key immobilizer also communicates all the 'secret numbers' though the CANBUS. Even the instrument cluster is somehow involved in starting the car (through the CANBUS, of course). Also interesting is that BOTH the engine ECU and the transmission ECU can enable the immobilizer relay.

A few sensors (seemingly traction/stability control related) are directly on the CANBUS (steering angle, yaw sensor, possibly more). Other, more traditional, sensors are hung off one of the ECUs, but other ECUs have access via the CANBUS (coolant temperature, for example- Engine ECU is direct, but the transmission ECU can poll the Engine ECU for it's values).


Thoughts....
The 'magic board' idea has some merit. If you wish to use the OEM ECU to run an H6 you will need to figure out what CANBUS calls are needed and which can be disregarded. You will also need to figure out what other ECUs the engine ECU needs to 'see'. Being an exsisting type of industrial networking the CANBUS is really not all that hard to 'sniff'. If you tap into it and datalog all the network traffic, sooner or later you should be able to identify what is going on. Once the 'language' is broken and learned, building a board to replace missing components is almost elementary. How much time, and smarts, do we have? I guess we would need someone willing to donate a H6 equiped car for bit of time too.

[Smitty911]

Well if there was a way to make anything more difficult than it needs to be I think Subaru did it. HA.

So it sounds like we need a car with something to record the data stream, de-bug the data stream and than make a board, test board.

Something like this? http://hemdata.com/products/dawn or http://www.dataloggerinc.com/datasheets/datataker-cangate.pdf That takes care of the data stream, anyone have an H6 car? Once the data stream is isolated, anyone know what to do with it?

I have no marketable skills.:eek:

Smitty

[NonProfit]

The speedometer in the cluster also seems to get its ECM info (speed, fuel level, temp, etc) through the CANBUS.

I had wanted to use custom gauges. It sounds as if the CANBUS will need that data.

[Xusia]

I think we may be forgetting that H6s are sold with manual transmissions outside the US. I think it might be easier to figure out the differences, and work from there.

One thought is to use the tables from a manual equipped H6 (by tables I mean just the data, or configuration parameters). The ECU might be expecting an auto, but by doing this we be able to make it respond appropriately to the manual.

Another thought is to re-flash the ECU entirely with the code from a manual equipped H6 (both executable code and data). Depending on the differences, this could have other issues (immobilizer, AVCS vs. non-AVCS, etc.).

On a side note, when most people talk about programming an ECU (in the automotive world), they are really only talking about changing the data values located in the tables (for example, how much fuel to inject at any given point, settings like max RPMs, etc.). "Setting configuration parameters" would be a more appropriate description than "programming" because outside of the automotive world, "programming" refers to executable software code, and "configuration" refers to the setting of various parameters used by the code, and rarely is the executable code the ECU runs changed (though there are some situations where that is the case).

[Smitty911]

Access to one would be nice. Anyone have reletives outside the US that wouldn't mind buying a Subaru and than letting us "Figure it out"? ;)

You can get an JDM Motor and ECU, but the other parts might get intresting. If you use the JDM ECU Check it out, and than compare it to the US ECU, will that provide the information?

Smitty

[Xusia]

A compare of the tables between the 2 might provide the appropriate info.

[Flamshackle]

While looking for a factory wiring manual I ran across this:

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=f8b4a3bb68649f6a664b6dc458fe074f&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.subaruoutback.org%2Fforums%2F 66-problems-maintenance%2F15724-free-factory-service-manual-download-links-6.html&v=1&libid=1337984297819&out=http%3A%2F%2Fphantomotaku.com%2FSVX%2F011822-MSA5P0631C.pdf&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26r ct%3Dj%26q%3D2010%2520subaru%2520service%2520manua l%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D2%26sqi%3D2%26ved%3D0CKkBE KwCKAIwAQ%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.subaruout back.org%252Fforums%252F66-problems-maintenance%252F15724-free-factory-service-manual-download-links-6.html%26ei%3DQwTAT7zuEoWRiAKux434Bw%26usg%3DAFQjC NH_ajA1Yjyhb_i8bvriZBRi3tjGoA&title=Free%20factory%20service%20manual%20download %20links.%20-%20Page%206%20-%20Subaru%20Outback%20-%20Subaru%20Outback%20Forums&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fphantomotaku.com%2FSVX%2F011822-MSA5P0631C.pdf&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13379881847967

Give a good brief of the 3 major EZ motors.

As far as electrical, the later H6s all have a seperate TCM and ECM, which is good. The two communicate with a CANBUS interface, which means that simple jumpers (like SVXs use when 5-speed swapped) are out. Fooling the ECU into thinking that an automatic is still behind it just got harder.


What a find! Read it all! Love the two different ways they control valve timing between the 3.0 and the 3.6... Actually a very cool motor!

[leetfade]

I think we may be forgetting that H6s are sold with manual transmissions outside the US. I think it might be easier to figure out the differences, and work from there.

This right here!

I'm not sure why you would need to reconfigure the USDM ECU to match the JDM ECU, though. Just use the JDM ECU! They do not have the same restrictions (in most cases) as the USDM ECU and may provide a more plug and play solution (well, closer to one). Will that still pass the California regulations?

I know it is a completely different car, but this is what we had to do with an RSX auto to manual conversion we just did. The USDM ECU was very restrictive and could not get passed the immobilizer whereas the JDM ECU did not provide the same complications.

Great finds and info in this thread!! If I do some capital liquidation as I'm considering I may go ahead and pick up an H6 and ECU. I have some more pressing things at the moment but this is very intriguing... Maybe I can at least get a hold of a JDM and USDM H6 ECU and set someone loose on it just in case there is more to it than the Acura's issues.

I know we have some Aussies on here. I would think there would be some manual H6s out there!

[Xusia]

I'm sure using an ECU from a manual equipped H6 (i.e. JDM) would work for the engine just fine. The potential issues are related to the rest of the components (i.e. immobilizer), and any differences there may be between a JDM H6 and USDM H6. Are there any differences?

[PhyrraM]

The way I see it, the issue with the manual transmission is only in areas that require a plug-in inspection. Any other area will likely find a 3rd party standalone cheaper and more straightforward (compared to importing, taxes, research, reprogramming) - not to mention much better positioned for any future upgrades.

In areas that DO have plug-in testing, I find it unlikely that a overseas ECU will pass. They all have I.D. numbers inside that would easily be sniffed out. And the code has hidden verification checksums that make changing stuff very hard unless you know what your doing.

As far as a reprogramming of a USA ECU to overseas 'manual' code? As far as I know nobody can do that yet. Puts that idea in the same boat as the 'magic board' idea.

Th idea of an H6 818 is horribly entertaining. Virtually an ideal situation, IMHO. But the ladder is steep and long. It needs a Champion. An educated champion. An educated champion - with time on his hands. (Or go standalone)

At this point, I honestly feel the best shot is to find that extra 4" and use the SVX H6. That one is known to be an easy manual conversion - well documented too.

[Smitty911]

The way I see it, the issue with the manual transmission is only in areas that require a plug-in inspection. Any other area will likely find a 3rd party standalone cheaper and more straightforward (compared to importing, taxes, research, reprogramming) - not to mention much better positioned for any future upgrades.

In areas that DO have plug-in testing, I find it unlikely that a overseas ECU will pass. They all have I.D. numbers inside that would easily be sniffed out. And the code has hidden verification checksums that make changing stuff very hard unless you know what your doing.

As far as a reprogramming of a USA ECU to overseas 'manual' code? As far as I know nobody can do that yet. Puts that idea in the same boat as the 'magic board' idea.

Th idea of an H6 818 is horribly entertaining. Virtually an ideal situation, IMHO. But the ladder is steep and long. It needs a Champion. An educated champion. An educated champion - with time on his hands. (Or go standalone)

At this point, I honestly feel the best shot is to find that extra 4" and use the SVX H6. That one is known to be an easy manual conversion - well documented too.

PhyrraM,

I have to agree with you at this point. There appears to be no easy solution without jumping though hoops of decreasing size, or like you suggested a Educated Champion with Time and some $$.

Smitty

[leetfade]

I wish I had the time (and more play money) to just focus on this for a while. There is always a way, it's just if it's worth the hassle / cost!

I am not used to the California regulations at all so I am, more or less, ignorant to what will and won't pass the "sniffer", unfortunately.

[Xusia]

I wish I could be that champion, but I just don't have the necessary knowledge. I'd really like to use a newer H6, but it's not looking good. For me, the fallback would probably be a WRX engine rather than the SVX engine. Just seems easier to find and easier to build. I could always do an H6 swap later if the necessary work gets done...

[leetfade]

I'm in the same boat. If I have to fall back it will be an EJ25 with something like a GTX3076r. I will likely go H6 since I can actually go with a Haltech, though. Maybe I can work on the stock ECU as a side project.

[SccrMan13]

H6 will be a lot of fun now just wonder if there will be room for one of these. http://www.raptorsc.com.au/kits.php?id=58
How about a 350+hp H6.

[07FIREBLADE]

Damn lol that's gonna be half he cost of FFR target build goal. Lol...

[SccrMan13]

Yeah its rediculuos. I would think finding a small supercharger and doing some fab work to mount it along with an intercooler would be the way to go if you are running a standalone ecu to control things. There is also a twin turbo h6 somewhere on the web.

[shim2]

That's one thing I've never liked about superchargers the cost per hp compared to turbochargers is much much higher.

[PhyrraM]

The one shown in the pictures is a centrifugal supercharger, so the power curve is not that much different than if you added a turbocharger. Not the instant low end boost you get with a positive displacement supercharger (like an Eaton).

[SccrMan13]

Yeah but they can be more linear and much easier to control boost levels with. That being said i have enjoyed my turbo experiences in both my eagle talon tsi awd and my current tdi, and i can see a big turbo hit of torque being hard to manage in a lightweight vehicle. My tdi has 220 ft.lbs. and if i step on it in first or second will break the tires or traction control will turn on. Im hoping the h6 works.


Btw any clue on if the seats or other interior bits will work?

[PhyrraM]

Btw any clue on if the seats or other interior bits will work?

99.9% the OEM seat are reused in the basic kit. The factory gauge cluster and pedals are too. Steering column, switchgear and wheel. Likely the parking brake assembly.

[SccrMan13]

Sorry should have specified that i was asking if anyone had figured out if we could use an outback or legacy for the interior bits if we get one for the h6 engine. Then all that needs to be sourced is a tranny and axles hopefully.

[PhyrraM]

Without a complete list and really good pictures of the current frame, I'd place most of the Legacy stuff as 75% yes, 20% yes, with minor mods and 5% as no. The exception is the rear suspension if your Legacy is a 2000-2004 as it is not the same design. If your Legacy is 2005+ the front suspension is out too.

[305mouse]

Legacy seats have a different mounting bracket. Imprezza and Forester use the same mounting bracket. If I remember correctly with the seats you could as far back as 98 and up to 07 without having to switch the base.

[StatGSR]

get ready to see some useful info for you people that need to pass a obd readiness test... found this on nasioc..


Standalone is the way to go. If you need to pass plug in do a tandem ECU like I am. Providing power to an 05' STi ECU and open source tuning it to turn everything off and force readiness.


sounds legit to me

[PhyrraM]

The last time I played with the software (2.0WRX, 16 bit ECU, 3ish years ago) you could turn off individual codes. Not sure you could force a readyness monitor. If you can now, that would be cool.

I used it to disable the CEL for the exhaust temp sensor. The temp sensor was removed when I went to a catless uppipe.

[Smitty911]

Well that would work out quite nicely than.

So you just hide the Actual ECU and have them plug into a dummy one? H6 here I come.

You have to love smart people.

Smitty

[leetfade]

I didn't know you could force the emissions part! That's awesome. We actually have an xD in the shop right now that runs and AEM EMS and the stock ECU in tandem. It was the first I had seen of it but guess it's getting common.

That should make life easier for you guys in Cali!

[PhyrraM]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12717&d=1351656276

It looks like a chassis crossbar is welded across directly in front of the crank pulley. If this representative of the current chassis design, then it looks like about an inch of clearance to change the belt. Perspective might be playing tricks, but it looks tight.

I'm gonna call the EG33 from the SVX as not fitting at all - and the newer, shorter 3.0 and 3.6 H6s as not fitting until you 'massage' that crosstube.

Not entirely unexpected.

[Slatt]

The motor/tranny presently drop down towards the front, which helps with the CG. Possibly, one could shim up the front mounts so the H6 would clear that bar?? Then you might need to massage only the rear tranny cradle which is 'less' important to overall chassis strength. I have 3 motor options in my mind and I'd luv to keep the H6 in there!

[JonyG]

[QUOTE=Xusia;61151]I think we may be forgetting that H6s are sold with manual transmissions outside the US. I think it might be easier to figure out the differences, and work from there.
QUOTE]

Hey all,

I'm from Israel and love the idea of the H6 in the 818, i'll be checking into it because if i'm not mistaken there are manual 3.0 Subaru B4s running around here that would fit the description needed.

I'll report again later,

JonyG

[Wayne Presley]

JonyG, welcome and you can see my H6 build here http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?10525-Wayne-Presley-VeryCoolParts-Build-Thread-H6-power