Am I missing something?

[D2W]

In the update posted yesterday by Dave he attached an image of "one of the final body design substrates". Does that mean this is the first body design because thats Jim's body with some minor front end rework. Disappointing if true after we saw so many great designs.

Anybody go to see the go-cart today?

[skullandbones]

It struck me as odd for that configuration to show up, too. So I see your point. It was ackward for me. I'm hoping it was a filler like the silver model at SEMA sitting on top of the chassis. If this is close to the first offering for the 818 roadster, I will hold off for later versions (too pedestrian). But I don't really think it is the final (fingers crossed!!!). WEK.

[kach22i]

The first production version composite body shape is in the manufacturing process and we are building production tools 100$ from CAD files..........................

I may publish full dimensionally accurate CAD file photos of the final body shape that will serve as the first 818 version. It will be a roadster and it will have a convertible soft top at launch. The attached image is one of the final body designs substrate.

Below is the same "shell" they have had on the website for a while.

http://www.factoryfive.com/kits/project-818/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/ffr-818-computer-side.jpg

If I were to reword it a little: The attached image is one of several final body designs, a substrate.

I added the word "several", but is it right to do so?

To answer your question D2W, yes this "ONE" is a rehash of Jim's earlier efforts, but as to if this is "THE ONE" they are going with, I don't know. I don't think the final will fall far from this tree though, otherwise why anger people with a total smokescreen or bait & switch?

Maybe Dave Smith will offer a clarification, we can only hope. I'm guessing he enjoys the tickle and tease, not that there is anything wrong with that.;)

[riptide motorsport]

If thats what he's selling I'm not buying.

[Flamshackle]

In the update posted yesterday by Dave he attached an image of "one of the final body design substrates". Does that mean this is the first body design because thats Jim's body with some minor front end rework. Disappointing if true after we saw so many great designs.

Anybody go to see the go-cart today?

"I may publish full dimensionally accurate CAD file photos of the final body shape that will serve as the first 818 version. It will be a roadster and it will have a convertible soft top at launch. The attached image is one of the final body designs substrate."

I really hope it's not the design we see here as it was everyone's LEAST favourite. But it may be because of the "design goals" that this potentially cheaper shape is taken up as the first body?

Anyway I am holding my breath while we await the news and pics of this car...

Dying to hear how the go carted chassis looks (with pics please)

[kach22i]

If thats what he's selling I'm not buying.
I think they are close, but need to rethink the headlight thing as a start.

This is just a study, but you see how it changes the whole look with very little effort.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/ffr-kach-study3-051212.jpg

[NonProfit]

I think they are close, but need to rethink the headlight thing as a start.
Those lights help the nose tremendously! Upscale without being pretentious.

I like the car a lot, but hope it doesn't end up looking like a Saturn Sky from the rear.
9700

[kach22i]

It's tough to be original without being weird or odd looking. Add in the desire to cut down costs by selecting a common easy to get headlight assembly, and it's going to be an even greater challenge.

Just some thoughts or comparisons.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/ffr-kach-study3-051212-morestuff.jpg

EDIT: a 430 and 360 Ferrari could also be a nice headlight reference, although price would not make it an option.
http://www.madwhips.com/ferrari-f430-coupe-vs-360-mondena-coupe/
9701

[Stickshift84]

I just got back home after spending some time at the factory. To summarize, the go-cart was there and I was extremely happy to get to see it. However that viewing was from ~15 feet away with Jim standing guard and answering any question asked. Of course he would not say anything about the body shape though but I of course tried. I talked to Jim for quite some time and he was able to answer a lot of my questions. From everthing I discussed with him I am more excited than ever with what is to come. I hope that the body will be shown at the open house but there is no word on that yet.

For everyones reference I already have my donor and will be buying as soon as available.

I would suggest that everyone try to not read into Dave's words too much. I am 100% confident that this car is going to be as amazing as everyone has been thinking.

I did not take any pictures just so nobody asks for them.

[Doc_FFR]

If thats what he's selling I'm not buying.

I second this motion. I will go as far as to predict rather mediocre sales if this is what they decide to lead out with. I worry that there will be little development money left for other body styles if this one leads the way.

[Stickshift84]

I think anyone on here that is questioning what was said or shown should look up the definition of substrate...

I will do it for you:
1.A substance or layer that underlies something, or on which some process occurs, in particular.
2.The surface or material on or from which an organism lives, grows, or obtains its nourishment.

So what Dave was showing was one of the body designs (body surface only) which we have all basically seen before. I would not expect what he has shown to be the final body. Remember he is not releasing the body shape yet.

Lets all try to keep POSITIVE. They are and have always done an incredible job and deserve our support.

[kach22i]

I think the shell can be saved and I suspected FFR would continue along those lines, which is why I did those other studies last week.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/kach-McLaren-influenceFFR-818.jpg

Looking at past designs I really liked, I think there is a way to improve this one. And it would feel good that all that effort did not go to waste.

[JAE]

Well it looks like they might be moving closer to my contest submission, maybe I won't have to make my own body after all!

[kach22i]

JAE, which one is yours?

I've always liked the Dodge Neon headlights, and they are abundant, and most likely cheap too. They remind me of Porsche headlights, the 993's to be exact.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/kach-ffr-818-pcar-heradlights.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/GRID-headlights-subie-818.jpg

EDIT 05/13/12: I think the real problem with trying to use Camry headlights is that the Camry is a much larger car. Therefore the Camry headlights become oversized on an 818 sized car.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/GRID-818-11x17.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/kach-2-ffr-818-jims-newheadlight.jpg

[jimgood]

If I were to reword it a little: The attached image is one of several final body designs, a substrate.

I added the word "several", but is it right to do so?


There's another way to interpret Dave's statement about the body image in his update. We know Dave is not a stickler for grammar and punctuation in his posts or on the website. His statement could just as easily be interpreted in these ways:

"The attached image is one of the final body design's substrate." As in "the substrate of the final body design".
or
"The attached image is one of the final body design substrates." As in "one of many substrates of various final body designs".

This is why I hate poor grammar and punctuation (including from myself). When you don't following the rules, it is harder to know precise meaning. When you constantly misuse the language, your audience has to constantly wonder if a current phrase is just more $hitty grammar.

[RM1SepEx]

I think anyone on here that is questioning what was said or shown should look up the definition of substrate...

I will do it for you:
1.A substance or layer that underlies something, or on which some process occurs, in particular.
2.The surface or material on or from which an organism lives, grows, or obtains its nourishment.

So what Dave was showing was one of the body designs (body surface only) which we have all basically seen before. I would not expect what he has shown to be the final body. Remember he is not releasing the body shape yet.

Lets all try to keep POSITIVE. They are and have always done an incredible job and deserve our support.

Well said... I'm also confident we will get what we expect. Dave said earlier that Jim's design was dead, I'm not sure why he just put in a placeholder but what he has indicated tells me that although they have chosen the final body shape the details of making panels with the new process, adding panels made with the traditional process of fiberglass and gel coat, getting them to color match and fit together etc... means that we will likely see some compromises on the shape to better "fit" the process. I still just plain "need" to see that final body shape... hoping for some iteration of Xabier's... a soft top across that targa/roll bar area wouls be very easy.

After saying that:

I'm ready to plunk my cash down, having an available roof, YEA! Donor here this week, waiting for exact date from the shipping company, more information Monday. I'm gonna start reconditioning where needed and be ready when it becomes available.

Dan

[Doc_FFR]

For me the issue is this: If Dave knows that "we all hate" design #4, what does he have to gain by getting everyone all riled up by putting a modified CAD image on the forums? To me it looks like they have been trying to work the boring out of the original #4 instead of trying to make one of the other designs fit.

[Doc_FFR]

Lets all try to keep POSITIVE. They are and have always done an incredible job and deserve our support.
You're right, you're right. Dave has never made a dud before, so there's no reason to start now.
Forgive me, Dave, moderators, forum brothers and sisters, if my faith has been lacking. I have been following this project since back before it existed and was a Smyth car. I was not impressed with how that one turned out. My hopes were high for this project, and then to go so long with out any updates... And then we have the #4 waved at us...

Why have I invested so much in a car that doesn't exist I really don't know.

[VTX]

If thats what he's selling I'm not buying.

I hate to say it, but I agree. I'm just not a fan of that design at all. Hopefully that's not the final body.

[Kalstar]

Remember guys, there will be multiple bodies. Keeping with the subi way, Lego car for me please.

[BipDBo]

It doesn't sound like this is the final design, just another teaser. We may seee some sort of evolution of this though. Anyway, no body shape is going to set everyone's head on fire. When you factor in considerations of function, buildability and cost, it gets more difficult. Dave will release a great looking car, but you will always be able to find something you like better, I'm sure. There will also be other bodies to follow. I, for one, will be waiting for the coupe.

The following facts alone, should set any gearhead's head on fire, regardless of what the body looks like:
* 1800 lbs
* 230 hp (for starters)
* mid engine
* $15,000
For the cost of an econobox, you will be able to build a car that will not only put to shame much more expensive "sports cars," but will run circles around them like a raped monkey.

[D2W]

I will go as far as to predict rather mediocre sales if this is what they decide to lead out with. I worry that there will be little development money left for other body styles if this one leads the way.

This is what worries me too. How committed to further product development can you be if the initial product doesn't sell well. The 65 spyder is a good example. Great looking car that never sold well. FFR never develpoed a top, (Which may have helped sales?) or improved the kit. (The body had some major buildability problems) But this makes sense for a car that sold less than 40 copies.

I think a bigger issue is can an original design ever sell well enough. The kit car market has always been dominated by replicas of rare expensive cars that normal guys could never hope to own. Cobras, Lamborghinis, Porsches, hot rods, etc. No original design from any manufacturer has ever prospered like those cars. To recoup investment and fund further development the 818 will have to sell well, and if the 818 is to survive it is going to have to get a lot of people very excited.

[JAE]

[QUOTE=kach22i;59533]JAE, which one is yours?

Mine was one of the 3 or 4 clay models. I had trouble finding it in the project 818 design contest submission, it was a couple of pages from the end. For some reason it is now on page 3 - tried to copy and paste it here - with no luck.

Thanks John

[spaceywilly]

The following facts alone, should set any gearhead's head on fire, regardless of what the body looks like:
* 1800 lbs
* 230 hp (for starters)
* mid engine
* $15,000
For the cost of an econobox, you will be able to build a car that will not only put to shame much more expensive "sports cars," but will run circles around them like a raped monkey.


I wish I could say that was true, but for me if it is ugly I won't buy it, no matter how fast it is. A car should look great standing still in addition to having great performance, I think that is part of why we all love cars. Not sure why they are pushing forward with this bad design when there were tons of good ones in the contest. It really is a head scratcher and the only explanation that makes sense to me is that this is not the final body design. At this point though all we can do is speculate so I will keep the torch and pitchfork in the closet until I see the final design in person.

I think if the body is ugly I will just keep it a go kart :)

[shinn497]

I wish I could say that was true, but for me if it is ugly I won't buy it, no matter how fast it is. A car should look great standing still in addition to having great performance, I think that is part of why we all love cars. Not sure why they are pushing forward with this bad design when there were tons of good ones in the contest. It really is a head scratcher and the only explanation that makes sense to me is that this is not the final body design. At this point though all we can do is speculate so I will keep the torch and pitchfork in the closet until I see the final design in person.

I think if the body is ugly I will just keep it a go kart :)

+1 but tbh I wonder how hard it would be to do a custom design, especially if you had a cad model. I would do rodneys because it would be awesome to have a car that is one of a kind.

[Flamshackle]

I wish I could say that was true, but for me if it is ugly I won't buy it, no matter how fast it is. A car should look great standing still in addition to having great performance, I think that is part of why we all love cars. Not sure why they are pushing forward with this bad design when there were tons of good ones in the contest. It really is a head scratcher and the only explanation that makes sense to me is that this is not the final body design. At this point though all we can do is speculate so I will keep the torch and pitchfork in the closet until I see the final design in person.

I think if the body is ugly I will just keep it a go kart :)

I am a real sell out for the rodney design but I do however trust that FFR will come up with something awesome...
It pains me to think that they might go with anything similar to design 4 but hopefully with major revision it would love hot?

I trust!

[Benji]

I have been following this project since back before it existed and was a Smyth car. I was not impressed with how that one turned out.

I'm sorry what? As far as I am aware the 818 has absolutely zilch to do with that other car. Perhaps that was just incorrectly phrased or I have missed something.

[fritts]

I'm waiting impatiently as well on the body to show up. If it doesn't look good to me I will start purchasing parts for another car project. I'm not the biggest fan of all the subie part reuse so it really puts me on the edge if the body isn't something special.

[kach22i]

I'm sorry what? As far as I am aware the 818 has absolutely zilch to do with that other car. Perhaps that was just incorrectly phrased or I have missed something.
Perhaps they are connected because they are not connected.

Mark's car with original GTM influenced rear end, in concept reused as much of the donor as possible, keeping in spirit with the donor Ford Mustang/Cobra method which set FFR apart from all other kit car companies in it's early days. By contrast, Dave has kept the FFR spirit alive in the 818 by using the donor Subaru as a mechanical parts donor, not a partial chassis donor.

As I understand it Mark's project, "going fast green" drew a line between the brothers, with Dave going the more traditional route with his 818 project.

I only know what I've read on the Internet, so if I'm full of carp on this one, I'll just apologize now.

I will say I find it very curious that the changes Mark made to his rear end were sort of mirrored by Jim's design - in my opinion. I think these two projects should and will take great strives to look nothing like each other. Meaning I don't think Dave is going to use Celica headlights (like Mark) for instance.

[D2W]

I agree with the line being drawn between brothers and may have pushed Marks sellout of FFR. Also remember that they are located very close to one another, and I know at least early on Jim had visited Mark.

[DrieStone]

+1 but tbh I wonder how hard it would be to do a custom design, especially if you had a cad model. I would do rodneys because it would be awesome to have a car that is one of a kind.

Yeah I wonder what the possibility would be for a crowd sourced body if we're unhappy with the design. I too have faith, but I also love Rodney's design. My fear would be that the investment of time/energy/cash would be extraordinarily high, and at that point it would be easier to have FFR do it.

With Kickstarter being so big, I wonder if there was a way that FFR could do a mini-kickstarter (i.e. not really Kickstarter, but a community funded effort) for an alternate body if there was interest. Literally have people pledge $$ toward Rodney's design, but set a target that is an all or nothing sort of thing.

Not that I'm suggesting that even needs to happen. I want to see the final v1.0 design before I get my panties in a bunch ;-) I agree with others though, I don't care how fast it is, if the design isn't HOF I'm not in. I realize there will be other bodies with perhaps other power plant options (although I really want to do a WRX based car).