What makes a fun 818?

[NonProfit]

My first car was a 1984 Dodge Daytona. 2.2 turbo 5-speed. It had a extremely narrow power band. I would stomp on the gas and wait...not...yet...BAM! Once the turbo spooled up the car would scoot. It was a blast to drive! Crazy thing is, the BAM! wasn't all that, horsepower was around 150 with a factory 0-60 time around 7 seconds. Perhaps the infatuation was that it was my first car but I think it was more than that. Classic British roadsters are loved, not because they are fast, but because they are fun. The lowly Daytona was the closest I've come to that kind of driving.

Fast forward to last week. I was driving the wife and kids in the minivan. I was in a 55 going about 10 over. I entered a construction zone and although I let off the gas, I did not aggressively break. I was clocked 61 in a 45. They took my license, I have a mandatory court appearance and am facing a minimum $375 fine. Then I read the review Subaru BRZ: It's Thinker Than You Fast It Is (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304724404577293812942708538.html?m od=wsj_article_exploremore_row1_3) and it all came clear. This article gave definition to some vague ideas I've had for some time. Faster may be less fun. I'm never going to run with Ferraris or even come close to top speed. If I was building a track car, it might be different. But the 818 is going to be so light an so well engineered, I'm wondering how I can choke it back to make driving fun again.

Driving patterns are going to influence what is safe. I don't plan to push mine all that hard. What are some considerations to keep from building a car too adept for street use?


Suitable amount of sound (engine, road & wind)
Not too grippy seats
Depowered steering rack
Suspension that's soft enough to allow a bit of drift, tight enough to feel the road
Proper amount of engine power/transaxle gearing to require regular shifting
Focus on torque (vs. horsepower)
Smaller tires (narrow width to reduce traction, small diameter to increase the dead cat hole)
Standard brakes


Thoughts?

[Etos]

Get an NA donor. That or wait for the proposed diesel version. Make sure a kit car is for you, if not buy an old miata or if new is your thing, a newer miata or BRZ.

[NonProfit]

Thanks for your reply, Etos! Actually I was quite sold on the 818, but I'd like a roof so I know I won't be an early adopter. Just out of curiosity, why would this post imply I might be better suited for a production car? Thanks!

[Smitty911]

Ahhh, yes the Dodge Early Turbos, I started selling Dodges when I got out of the Marine Corp in '85. Dodge Turbo Omni's were fun and the ****** (looks like we still can't mention Shell-Bee's)Daytona with T-Tops and leather, also nice.

I think it's too early to tell, but some things should be easy. Sounds like a N/A powered single donor build takes care of everything and keeps the cost down. I have a Porsche 914 now and it's really fun with only 90HP. Power is only one persons measurement of fun. Open top, Casual Cruise are also fun, but the ability to kick it in the pants and have things happen is what I'm shooting for.

Smitty

[bromikl]

"It's more fun to drive a slow car fast, than to drive a fast car slow."

[Etos]

Thanks for your reply, Etos! Actually I was quite sold on the 818, but I'd like a roof so I know I won't be an early adopter. Just out of curiosity, why would this post imply I might be better suited for a production car? Thanks!

Honestly? The minivan lol. That and you come off as wanting something simple. Nothing gets more simple then handing a check and taking the keys.

[projectrally]

"It's more fun to drive a slow car fast, than to drive a fast car slow."

+1. I agree with this statement, but I'd modify it a bit. It's more fun to drive a car that has limits you can actually reach in real-world driving. Cars are getting so fast and so high-tech these days, they're sort of useless anywhere but a track. Take the Nissan GT-R. Incredible technology, but you can't come anywhere near probing its limits on the street in anything even remotely resembling legal speeds. There are ton of new cars that fit that category. At the opposite end of the spectrum is something like a Mini Cooper, Miata, or even the new BRZ, which comes from the factory with the same tires they put on the Prius, because they want the grip levels to be relative to the rest of the car's performance so you can actually use all of it in a real-world environment. As a long-time Miata owner, I'll say that I love having a car that I can actually get close to probing its limits on a back road or an autocross course.

Now, I don't think that that's the only kind of car worth having, and I certainly don't plan on building a slow 818. Which brings me to the second half of my modified "slow car fast" thesis: a good car is one that's enjoyable to drive slowly. Use the Miata again for an example, or even take a FFR Mk4 Roadster: It's fun to drive it hard, but it's still enjoyable to drive it at 35mph when you're stuck in traffic. Why? Because the car feels special. The steering, the handling, the absence of a roof. These are characteristics that make a car enjoyable to drive all the time. I have as much fun in my Miata puttering around on busy b-roads with the top down on a nice day as I do when I'm at the track. Well, not quite as much fun, but I still enjoy it.

So in my estimation, that's what will make the 818 a fun car: a car that you can actually approach the limits on the street, but one that will feel special driving it in traffic or to run errands. Bonus points if it's a track monster, too. Based on everything I know about the 818 so far, I'd say it's right on track to hit all three of my criteria.

[wallace18]

I think the fun of the 818 will be differant for every one. Part of the fun will be building it the way you personnaly want it. Another part is finding the donor. I was lucky and found a high mileage 2002 WRX for 3K. Hopefully the last part of fun will be in the driving and tweaking of the car. The nice thing about a kit car is you can go mild or wild. T.W.

[NonProfit]

Honestly? The minivan lol. That and you come off as wanting something simple. Nothing gets more simple then handing a check and taking the keys.
Fair enough. When you got kids, you got to put them somewhere.

As for simple, I don't think I was asking for simple, at the very least I wasn't wanting simple. I was asking how to best tweak an 818 build for a particular experience. Depowering the steering rack, although not huge, is more work than leaving as-is. Selecting/modding a motor for torque is no simpler than doing so for speed. Sourcing seats than hold like an old school bucket (vs. a racing seat's cradle) takes some thought and effort.

That's what's great about this, build to spec allows everyone to craft what suits them best. Anyway, I appreciate everyone's thoughts! Any other ideas on how to make this less supercar and more roadster are certainly appreciated.

[Nuul]

"It's more fun to drive a slow car fast, than to drive a fast car slow."

That somewhat reminds me of a Hunter Thompson quote.

But with the throttle screwed on, there is only the barest margin, and no room at all for mistakes. It has to be done right... and that's when the strange music starts, when you stretch your luck so far that fear becomes exhilaration and vibrates along your arms. You can barely see at a hundred; the tears blow back so fast that they vaporize before they get to your ears. The only sounds are the wind and a dull roar floating back from the mufflers. You watch the white line and try to lean with it... howling through a turn to the right, then to the left, and down the long hill to Pacifica... letting off now, watching for cops, but only until the next dark stretch and another few seconds on the edge... The Edge... There is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over. The others - the living- are those who pushed their luck as far as they felt they could handle it, and then pulled back, or slowed down, or did whatever they had to when it came time to choose between Now and Later.

Myself, I want my 818-R to be so stupidly fast that I honestly have to question if I'm pushing it too hard. If I'm not going warp speed with my hair on fire, grinning like the Cheshire Cat, then I've not built it right.

[kach22i]

They took my license, I have a mandatory court appearance and am facing a minimum $375 fine.
Pay the fine and get a receipt.

I had some idiot drunk try to run me off the road once, the cop gave me the ticket for trying to get away from the hazard (speeding). This rookie cop then lied in court claiming no other cars were around.

I paid the ticket and a year later the state tried to take my license. The state farmed out the recording of the payment which went unrecorded and if I didn't have my receipt I would have been screwed.

Good luck in court, remember they are bullies and liars, don't trust them as far as you can throw them.

[soul strife]

Myself, I want my 818-R to be so stupidly fast that I honestly have to question if I'm pushing it too hard. If I'm not going warp speed with my hair on fire, grinning like the Cheshire Cat, then I've not built it right.

I think that sums it all up nicely.

[Oppenheimer]

The formula I think works best all comes down to one thing, tires. Tires that don't have ultimate grip, and that give way slowly, predictably.

I don't think you need school bus seats or floppy suspension. I think that actually takes something away. In fact, I say build it like a great track day car, then have two sets of wheels/tires. The street ones should be much thinner, 'just right' traction.

[PhyrraM]

Some thoughts....

Normally aspirated motor, a bit peaky actually helps it feel like you need to be more involved. While all the N/A 2.5s are close, there are a few sublte differences between them all. A '96 Legacy or Outback 2.5 liter would be cool. The '96 had re-cammed DOHC heads off the over-seas WRX turbo. By '97 they had switched to dedicated normally aspirated casting with smaller intake ports. That makes the '97-'99 motors a bit torquier and the '96s a bit more rev-able. Also, the '97-'99 DOHC is more revable than the '00+ SOHC.

A stock '02-'03 WRX turbo motor might also fit the bill, they have that 'turbo rush' more than the later 2.5 turbos.

'02-'03 WRX seats. While not the prettiest, they are the tightest, grippiest, and most form fitting stock seats.

Pre-'02 single piston caliper front brakes. Lighter by about 5 pounds per corner than later 2 or 4 piston calipers. The larger brakes will likey have unneeded thermal capacity for such a light car on the street - no need for the added weight.

Avoid overly stiff springs. I'm not sure how FFR will tune the suspension, but a bit of well controlled motion does wonders for handling and feel. Look how Miatas, Elises, and even the new BRZ are tuned for good examples.

A bit of sidewall helps a smooth breakaway and generally makes a tire more predicatable. I'm not talking alot, something like choosing a 15" wheel on 50 series rubber vs. a 16" wheel with 40 series tires.

Some of the early Imprezas had a single diaphram brake booster that offers less assist, but better feel, than the dual diaphram on all the later stuff.

[SkiRideDrive]

The formula I think works best all comes down to one thing, tires. Tires that don't have ultimate grip, and that give way slowly, predictably.

I don't think you need school bus seats or floppy suspension. I think that actually takes something away. In fact, I say build it like a great track day car, then have two sets of wheels/tires. The street ones should be much thinner, 'just right' traction.

I agree. This was my plan exactly.

[PhyrraM]

I don't think you need school bus seats or floppy suspension. I think that actually takes something away. In fact, I say build it like a great track day car, then have two sets of wheels/tires. The street ones should be much thinner, 'just right' traction.

Almost. I completely agree with choosing "lower" tires, but when doing so, you have to keep them on the road. Pure racing tires have so much grip, and are so soft - they work well with a racing suspension. You need some compliance from a pure track setting. Otherwise 'lesser' tires will just be skittering around and feeling really scary on the road. Some sidewall or a touch lighter springs, or a combination, is all thats needed.

[Oppenheimer]

Almost. I completely agree with choosing "lower" tires, but when doing so, you have to keep them on the road. Pure racing tires have so much grip, and are so soft - they work well with a racing suspension. You need some compliance from a pure track setting. Otherwise 'lesser' tires will just be skittering around and feeling really scary on the road. Some sidewall or a touch lighter springs, or a combination, is all thats needed.

Good point. Build it as a track day car, with adjustable supension, two sets of wheels/tires. Dial in your supsension settings for each environment, so you can easily toggle between them.

[Flamshackle]

I am actually thinking supercharging the turb motor would be the more enjoyable/rewarding/"fun" setup.
Of course "fun" is a very subjective topic to discuss, so from my point of view having the boost coming on strong and late ala big single turbo is going to be difficult to drive and a handful to control on road tires.

Lots of people like being sideways but I would prefer a more predictable power input. Then I can choose when I WANT to be sideways.

[Gary in NJ]

One of my favorite cars of all time was a 1986 MR2..all of 112 HP in a 2,000 pound car that handled like a go-cart. The car had direct (non-boosted) steering and a suspension that begged to be played with. The 185/60-14 tires would slide and sequel long before they broke loose.

I'm sure that an 1,800 pound 818 with a 175-ish hp 2.5 (n/a) will be plenty of fun while at the same time leaving many cars in the dust.

Keep it simple, keep it fun. But that's just my opinion and desire. Everyone that builds a custom car does so with their own hopes and dreams. There's no right or wrong answer.

[Smitty911]

One of my favorite cars of all time was a 1986 MR2..all of 112 HP in a 2,000 pound car that handled like a go-cart. The car had direct (non-boosted) steering and a suspension that begged to be played with. The 185/60-14 tires would slide and sequel long before they broke loose.

I'm sure that an 1,800 pound 818 with a 175-ish hp 2.5 (n/a) will be plenty of fun while at the same time leaving many cars in the dust.

Keep it simple, keep it fun. But that's just my opinion and desire. Everyone that builds a custom car does so with their own hopes and dreams. There's no right or wrong answer.

Gary,

I'm with you, around 175ish N/A motor and be done. There's always N02 and a Blower, if things need to get more serious.

Smitty

[RM1SepEx]

It's funny, I saw this post yesterday with no replies... many good ones above my post

I thought of it today when driving home. 25 miles of curvy Maine backroads that were paved a couple years ago... driving my wife's 99 Miata, very nice 2300 lbs, 140 HP a VERY enjoyable ride

a properly setup NA impreza motor in an 818 should be even better, power to weight of a turbo Miata!!!

of course I bought a totaled 05 wrx with 70K miles, I want a stiffer than Miata setup for the road and the ability to uncork some serious adrenaline when I autocross, perhaps a trip or two to the strip... you get the picture

[SkiRideDrive]

I am actually thinking supercharging the turb motor would be the more enjoyable/rewarding/"fun" setup.
Of course "fun" is a very subjective topic to discuss, so from my point of view having the boost coming on strong and late ala big single turbo is going to be difficult to drive and a handful to control on road tires.

Lots of people like being sideways but I would prefer a more predictable power input. Then I can choose when I WANT to be sideways.

This is a very interesting approach. I've never been super fond of turbo lag and this may be just the solution. I am curious how difficult it would be to implement. Were you thinking more of a vortech type centrifugal supercharger?

[NonProfit]

Everyone, thanks for your input!


Good luck in court, remember they are bullies and liars, don't trust them as far as you can throw them.

Thanks. Years ago I got a parking ticket from a place I had never been. I had what I thought was a pretty good defense...I've never owned that type of car. Unfortunately, that didn't seem to matter. The harassment continued for years but eventually I stopped getting notices.

[shinn497]

Getting back to e original topic...I think one thing that would make the 818 really fun is...LOOKS!

I really want a car that can turn heads. This car will be unique and no one will know what it is...or how much it is really worth...and that is priceless. Call me superficial, but cars are status symbols and I want one that people have no idea how to judge...

[Oppenheimer]

You are superficial :p

While I can see the appeal of a really hot looking 818, there is going to be more than one 818, multiple purposes. One (some) of those should clearly be HoF, looks like it cost $100K+, special valet parking treatment status symbols. Those 818's would ideally also be the ones that are as fast as they look.

But this thread is about fun 818's. There is certainly room for those, too. Most of this thread has about fun to drive. Not about outright speed, but more BRZ/Miata type driving fun. I think most that want that version of 818 will want it to look the part. Look fun, without looking girlie or pretentious.

But since the 818 is always going to be roll-your-own, there should be room to mix n' match to your taste. Sleeper 818 that is as fast as they come, but has the more sedate body. Or HoF looks, but performs only for the entertainment of the builder (more fun than fast). Or anything in between.

[Nuul]

special valet parking treatment status symbols

You think they would park it up there? It seemed reserved for the 60k+ cars when my wife and I stayed at the J.W. Marriott a month or so ago. Needless to say, a Cobalt (my commuter car) does not get parked up front with the Mercedes.

[skullandbones]

Hotrodders love big V8s with big hp so I guess I am in that category. But the most fun I ever had driving was my Fiat Spyder (except a motor cycle). I think it had 1756cc with two Weber side draft carbs. I had to drive along a ridge road, "Crest Road", to get to work. It was 86 curves, up and down hills and one stop. So every morning I was trying to improve my personal best time. There is no feel like a really light car snaking through a series of S's at **+mph. So I think the 818 will probably fit that feel better than any thing I can imagine. The only thing I want different is EFI. WEK.

[NonProfit]

The formula I think works best all comes down to one thing, tires. Tires that don't have ultimate grip, and that give way slowly, predictably.

I'm not talking alot, something like choosing a 15" wheel on 50 series rubber vs. a 16" wheel with 40 series tires.

Otherwise 'lesser' tires will just be skittering around and feeling really scary on the road. Some sidewall or a touch lighter springs, or a combination, is all thats needed.

Any recommendations as to brand? I've had Eagle GT's and Pirelli's which seemed plenty sticky. Lately I've been going with high-mileage Michelin's. They don't grab as well, but offer 100K-mileage service. (One set made it onto three different cars.)

[Smitty911]

Any recommendations as to brand? I've had Eagle GT's and Pirelli's which seemed plenty sticky. Lately I've been going with high-mileage Michelin's. They don't grab as well, but offer 100K-mileage service. (One set made it onto three different cars.)

I put some Pole Position II on my 914. 205/60/15 Sticky enough and my spinal cord thanked me.

Smitty