Why won't the H6 work?

[Xusia]

People have said it is too long, but I read that the 3.0 liter H6 block is only 1 inch longer than an EJ block. I've got to believe that would fit; or that FFR would make the allowances for it to fit. Has FFR officially stated it won't fit? Are there other issues? Can the H6 use the 5MT transmission or does it require a longer transmission as well?

Subaru experts, help me understand please! :)

[Oppenheimer]

Discussed to death in old threads before your time (car isn't even out yet and there are topics that have come and gone and been forgotten).

FFR says it won't fit, forum speculation is it might require some frame hacking, but could probably be accomplished. FFR stance appears to be that with so much power potential in turbo Subie 4, no need for the 6 in such a light car, so they didn't bother trying to see what it would take to accomodate. Those that long for N/A power delivery, but no limit to HP, disagree. Will = way for those, but I bet 818 Mk II chassis will accomodate 6 if its at all feasible.

[PhyrraM]

FFR is designing for the H4, so the fitment of an H6 is on the builder. Simple as that. My guess is that the newer ones will fit. Bell housings and motor mount locations are all a match.

The real-world issue (other than motor length) is that no H6 has ever come to North America backed with a manual transmission. There is very little knowledge of what the OEM ECUs will do without the automatic tranny ECU as it's cohort. Many of the H6 vehicles also came with CANBUS and/or immobilizers making them even harder to deal with.

The 'easy' H6 to use electrically is the older 3.3 liter one from the SVX. It's about 4" longer however.

[Nuul]

I'm almost positive there was a JDM version of the H6 that had a manual transmission option. I think it was the EZ series but I'd have to look it up. I have no idea what the dimensions are either so I'm probably not helping the conversation much :o

[StatGSR]

plenty of people have run ez30s with a manual trans, it can be done, and it can be done a number of ways, if you want to get the most out of it and make sure your not fighting the ecu along the way, i would just plan on getting a stand alone to run it with.

[el_jefe]

FFR stance appears to be that with so much power potential in turbo Subie 4, no need for the 6 in such a light car, so they didn't bother trying to see what it would take to accomodate.

The only reason I will be putting an H6 in:

It sounds better.

It will cost more, be a PITA to do, but at full tilt, a flat 6 sounds worlds better than a flat 4.

H6

http://youtu.be/JdhSlF5oK94

H4
http://youtu.be/qlsJkjctOd8

H6
http://youtu.be/YCu2MLqPcQ0

H4 flyby
http://youtu.be/ZKPoK8wb7S8

[Nuul]

Wow, that does sound sexy.


Edit: I wonder if there's a market for importing the JDM H6s and selling them for off-road use. I made some connections when I was in Japan last summer, I doubt it would be that hard to locate some. I guess the real problem would be getting them past customs state-side.

[Exidous]

Daddy likes the H6 sound!

[riptide motorsport]

That really sounds great!!!

[PhyrraM]

.... I wonder if there's a market for importing the JDM H6s .....I guess the real problem would be getting them past customs state-side.

It's not the engines we need, it's the ECUs (and possibly harnesses) to use the manual transmissions with them.

[Xusia]

Drat! Fioled AGAIN! I'm looking for easy, and all that sounds like a PITA. I'm trying to avoid a WRX donor because of the higher prices and my impression about how most of them have been treated. I'd like to put my car together with components that haven't been abused. I know you can refurbish, clean, whatever, but that all takes more time and money...

[PhyrraM]

Drat! Fioled AGAIN! I'm looking for easy, and all that sounds like a PITA. I'm trying to avoid a WRX donor because of the higher prices and my impression about how most of them have been treated. I'd like to put my car together with components that haven't been abused. I know you can refurbish, clean, whatever, but that all takes more time and money...

How about a '02-'07 Outback Sport? They are Imprezas with 2 tone paint sold as an entry level to the Legacy based full size Outback. They are usually bought by a <cough> older client. If you want turbo, then maybe you can source just a WRX harness/ECU/motor. Possibly the same overall cost, but likely not as 'beat on' as the average WRX.

Just ideas to explore while we wait.

[sonicrex]

Drat! Fioled AGAIN! I'm looking for easy, and all that sounds like a PITA. I'm trying to avoid a WRX donor because of the higher prices and my impression about how most of them have been treated. I'd like to put my car together with components that haven't been abused. I know you can refurbish, clean, whatever, but that all takes more time and money...

Check out the ez30d.

[Xusia]

I believe the EZ30D is the engine being discussed. The issue as I understand it, is pairing it with a manual transmission. Apparently that requires a different ECU.

[riptide motorsport]

And why can't we use the auto tranny again?:confused:

[sonicrex]

I believe the EZ30D is the engine being discussed. The issue as I understand it, is pairing it with a manual transmission. Apparently that requires a different ECU.

The engine I'm referring to comes from the 01-04 Outback L.L. Bean edition. (Cable throttle, single port, cast intake mani.)

[slopoke]

would the EZ36D be the same block as the 3.0L? .... 'cause that's worth about 270hp

[Doc_FFR]

The only reason I will be putting an H6 in:

It sounds better.

It will cost more, be a PITA to do, but at full tilt, a flat 6 sounds worlds better than a flat 4.

H6

http://youtu.be/JdhSlF5oK94



I must know everything about the setup in that car. Year/model exhaust setup, etc.

[riptide motorsport]

you can ask them at the youtube site.

[skullandbones]

I was just reading about it. I think the EZ36D has special offset rods to allow for more displacement. I thought it was about 3.3l. The specs on those H6s are pretty impressive.

The more I think about it and see the stats on those H6s, the more I would love to try to make it work!

WEK.

[SkiRideDrive]

From the video description:

"t was a 97 model with an 05 outback ez30r motor in it.
The exhaust is fully custom:
Extractors
High flow cat
Twin inline resonators
2.5" piping
XForce MP02 rear muffler"

It does sound great. I think he means headers by extractors, but not sure.

[fateo66]

Here is a video of me a little while back at a Rallyx driving school driving my EG33 (svx) swapped 1997 Impreza. There aren't too many times when I fully get on it, but you should still be able to get a good idea of how one will sound.


3.3L Impreza

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x310/fateo66/th_FirstRallyXH6.jpg (http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x310/fateo66/?action=view&current=FirstRallyXH6.mp4)

[Oppenheimer]

How about a '02-'07 Outback Sport? They are Imprezas with 2 tone paint sold as an entry level to the Legacy based full size Outback. They are usually bought by a <cough> older client. If you want turbo, then maybe you can source just a WRX harness/ECU/motor. Possibly the same overall cost, but likely not as 'beat on' as the average WRX.

Just ideas to explore while we wait.

Or how about one of the other modern-ish turbo Subies, Forester, Legacy, Baja? The Turbo versions of these are 2.5T. They won't be as likely to be beat upon, modified badly, etc. You may not be able to go single donor, but I bet everything else you need can be sourced easily from someone doing a WRX or Impreza part out. If you want to be able to just drop in the donor parts without doing a rebuild or fixing bad mods, this may be a good way to go.

[skullandbones]

I'll ask this question one more time. It is in the spirit of this thread. Does anyone have a reliable representation of the engine bay (template) with the WRX engine, trans, and diff in place? I can't find any side views of the FFR chassis only quarter views. Then can anyone say where the dimensions that don't fit are for the H6? In other words, if you lined up the axles on the template would the engine be too long and the diff would fit or is it a combination where the engine protrudes say 3 inches too far forward and the diff sticks out 3 or 4 inches too far back? I've been looking for specs but have not come up with anything, yet. Thank you. WEK.

[Nuul]

I found a thread at NASIOC on the subject for those who are interested.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1323800

[skullandbones]

I went to that thread. I didn't see any dimensions given. The problem is that in those mods, you can shorten the drive shaft if needed and move the radiator a little or use different radiator and use pusher fans to clear some area in front of the engine but we don't have those options. It would be nice to know just how much space is needed and where front or back to see where the sticking points are. Maybe no one has those measurements on the chassis, yet. WEK.

[Nuul]

We can get a rough estimate based on some of the info in that thread but it's not exact. Most were saying they had to move the radiator forward 3-4 inches. So if we know the size of the engine bay of the Impreza you can get within spitting distance.

[Xusia]

Or how about one of the other modern-ish turbo Subies, Forester, Legacy, Baja? The Turbo versions of these are 2.5T. They won't be as likely to be beat upon, modified badly, etc. You may not be able to go single donor, but I bet everything else you need can be sourced easily from someone doing a WRX or Impreza part out. If you want to be able to just drop in the donor parts without doing a rebuild or fixing bad mods, this may be a good way to go.

That's not a bad idea! I didn't know those were turbo 2.5L engines. Do you know what years?

As for the single donor aspect, if FFR offers a "complete kit" option for the 818, it would mean needed parts that you couldn't get off those models would be available from FFR. Not the cheapest option, I know, but made well and easier than visiting junk yards or shopping online for part outs.

[skullandbones]

That's true. At least, you could tell from that if you will be using the engine as an arm rest or if it just invades the cockpit an inch or two. I'll give it another try using your strategy.

I was hoping that it was close so you could really consider this as a possibility for those with the nerve to try it. I wouldn't even mind if the diff stuck out the back a little. I don't have a pic but the King Cobras used to have a quick change diff that stuck out. Looked pretty sexy!

Thanks, WEK.

[NonProfit]

easier than visiting junk yards or shopping online for part outs.

It's likely much cheaper to pick up a Forester or Legacy for the 2.5 as well as a N/A Impreza for everything else.

Assuming the Impreza is newer (due to emissions regulations), give both skeletons to the kid down the street and tell him he can have a car for the cost of an engine swap.

[Xusia]

Perhaps, but I like the idea of having new parts AND not having to deal with all the various aspects of a donor (finding, pulling the parts, reconditioning if necessary, disposal, etc.).

[Nuul]

I was searching for JDM engine parts and came across this lovely little JDM H6 (http://www.jdmenginezone.com/engine-details/subaru/xt6-cyclone-eg33-92_96.html).

[StatGSR]

I was searching for JDM engine parts and came across this lovely little JDM H6 (http://www.jdmenginezone.com/engine-details/subaru/xt6-cyclone-eg33-92_96.html).

Yea that's just an SVX EG33. thats the one we are pretty positive wont fit without substantial modification to the chassis, its the newer EZ30 engines that actually have a fighting chance. you can drop an ez30 in an impreza and not have to move the radiator at all, all you might need is slim fans.

[Nuul]

Is the SVX what everyone has been using at NASIOC or is it the EZ30? Most of the threads I found they were moving the radiator forward a few inches to make room.

[PhyrraM]

Is the SVX what everyone has been using at NASIOC or is it the EZ30? Most of the threads I found they were moving the radiator forward a few inches to make room.

If they move it forward by about 4", then yes it's the SVX motor.

A good give-away if they provide pictures is that thet SVX has plastic timing covers and a traditional timing BELT.

The newer (and shorter) 3.0 and 3.6 motors use a timing CHAIN, covered with aluminum castings.


The SVX motor (EG33) was 3.3 liters and had a bore, stroke and bore spacing identical to the EJ22. (2.2 x 1.5 = 3.3) It is basically a streched EJ motor with the same basic engineering. It ran from '91-'97 and was only used in one car - the SVX.

The newer motors (EZ30, EZ36) are all new with a tighter bore spacing and have no common engineering with the EJ motors. The tighter bore spacing and a switch to timing chains allow a package only about an inch longer then an EJ. They ran from about '01 to current. They came in Legacies, Outbacks and Tribecas.


Personally, I think an 818 with a 3.6 liter H6 converted to manual transmission is a very doable and enticing package. Cost is likely higher than a turbo build though.

[Smitty911]

Well if there is a decent way to place one of the EZ30 or EZ36 motors in the 818, I'm all for it.

More power (ie Torque and Horsepower), better sound, NO Turbo, reliable

Of course all bets are off until someone gets a frame and can mock one up.

Smitty

[Xusia]

I like the idea of the H6 (hence the reason I started this thread), but in the end, I'm after the cheapest way to build the entire car with 300hp.

[Smitty911]

I don't need 300hp, but over 200 without doing anything sure would be nice.

We also wouldn't have to fool around with re-locating radiators, etc. etc. because we will be in a tube frame with low to no clutter to work around. Also alot of the "extra" un-needed items can be removed ie Air conditioning compressor, etc.

This looks promising if the ECU can be dealt with and than just mating to a good Tranny.

Smitty

[PhyrraM]

Mating to a manual transmission is a bolt up. Any EJ flywheel and clutch can be used and the bellhousing bolt pattern is the same. The motor mounts are in the same relative location.

ALL of the issues are length or ECU related.

[NonProfit]

ALL of the issues are length or ECU related.

What's the difference in weight?

[StatGSR]

What's the difference in weight?

everything i have seen says its about the same as a turbo engine give or take a few pounds

[Flamshackle]

Mating to a manual transmission is a bolt up. Any EJ flywheel and clutch can be used and the bellhousing bolt pattern is the same. The motor mounts are in the same relative location.

ALL of the issues are length or ECU related.

This^^^ I personally believe it would not be difficult for a fabby to make fit in a morning...

Absolute perfect engine for a water meth low boost supercharge addition ;)

[StatGSR]

^ a Rotrex EZ30 would make me so happy!

[slopoke]

I'm still hoping the EZ30 or the EZ36D ( same block I think ... someone correct me if I'm wrong ) will fit. add supercharger 300+ hp for sure .... pipedreamin' maybe. The exhaust should sound awesome though

[leetfade]

Hmmm.. I need to do some more reading on these EZ motors... It's an interesting concept and would definitely take me down the N/A route vs. my original plan of a 4-500ish hp boosted EJ25...

Well crap! I thought I had my plan laid out!!! HA!

[PhyrraM]

I would think that 400-500HP is much cheaper with a tubo 4 cyl.

The stock power from the H6s was 200ish-275ish. Anything more than that is going basically be all custom work. Some companies have played with the H6s and had good individual results, but virtually no parts have made it to production to buy.

[Smitty911]

I'm fine with the 200ish to 275ish. I'd like to live long enough to enjoy at least 10,000 miles instead of 10 minutes and a Tree. Nevermind, I'm in SoCal, we don't have trees.

If it is truley only 1" longer, all the mounts are the same, stock ECU, shouldn't be a problem. More research needed.

Smitty

[leetfade]

I own an import performance shop so I intend for this car to be a bit of a showcase car for us that will do autox / road course events. I know that it won't come in at 15k (unfortunately) LoL. I also wouldn't try 500whp on N/A (at first). If I boost, I expect higher numbers. It's just much easier and cheaper to obtain, but less reliable and quirkier power band.

A 350ish N/A H6 sounds like a lot of fun in an 1800lb car, though!

[Smitty911]

Looks like you can pick up used H6 3.0 to 3.6 for around $1,500ish. Lowest I saw was 80,000 miles to 150,000. Price to rebuild for piece of mind?

Tempting, I guess the early 3.0 had hot spot issues.

Smitty

[skullandbones]

I'm fine with the 200ish to 275ish. I'd like to live long enough to enjoy at least 10,000 miles instead of 10 minutes and a Tree. Nevermind, I'm in SoCal, we don't have trees.

If it is truley only 1" longer, all the mounts are the same, stock ECU, shouldn't be a problem. More research needed.

Smitty

Smitty,

Where did you get the measurements? I looked thru the thread and didn't see anything. I did look on several sites and also could not get the lengths. I did get measurements for about everything I didn't want. WEK.:confused:

[Smitty911]

Skullandbones,

NASIOC, I've been reading up on the H6 from people who have swapped it into their cars. Seems its only 0.8" longer, not that it makes that big of a difference. :)

Smitty

[skullandbones]

Yeah,
I just saw your new thread. Nice work. Keep the H6 stuff coming. It's pretty funny that they referred to it as a "Big Block". I guess everything is relative. Thanks, WEK.