Low buck, phased in build

[PhyrraM]

I see lots of folks planning (very nice sounding) builds that might approach 3 times the kit cost. Some are laying plans for $10,000 just in engine work. To me, this sort of defeats MY (and only mine) purpose for the 818. I see the 818 as a low cost entry to the world that already contains many higher dollar examples. (Roadster, GTM, Ultima, etc) To raise the cost of an 818 much over $15,000 seems against some of the stated goals of the project. For me, $30,000 gets into teritory better explored with other options.

Note: this is not meant to bash anyone who plans a big build. There is room in this world for everyone's ideas and I am really looking forward to seeing where some folks will take the platform. This is just to illustrate MY personal ideas of the ideal 818.


The first generation Legacy ('89-'94) was the basic chassis that carried all the way through, with only minor improvements, to the 'donor' '02-'07 Impreza. That's an 18 year run. The same Legacy also saw the introduction of the EJ series of motors that the donor WRXs use. These Legacies can usually be picked up very cheap and, while the interior and exteriors can be really rough, the mechanicals are very stout and usually in servicable condition.

Here is a list of the differences, I will add to the list as I get 'reminded' of the ones I missed:

Front control arm bushing is narrower than the donor. Fixed with washers or a spacer to take up the difference.
Steering rack has different splines to the column. Fixed, by default, if using the Legacy column.
Steering rack uses the pre-'05 mounts. Fixed as long as FFR supports the '02-'04 WRX racks.
Pedal box has 2 (of 6) mounting bolts in slight different location. Likely fixed with a drill.
Instrument cluster a different shape. Only a problem if FFR uses a very tight dash molding. Fixed with a bit of fiberglass or creative trim work.
The center diff assembly is slightly changed. The FFR provided 2WD conversion kit might not work. Non-FFR kits are available, as are factory 2WD transmissions (w/ a 3.7 FD, arguably better @1800pounds)
1 (of 4) seat bolts is located differently and the seats sit noticably lower than the donors. Likely fixed with a drill.
The FFR provided wiring harness modification instructions will not work.

The advantages of using a first generation Legacy as your base:

Pre-OBD2. Doesn't matter to all, but to some it might.
The engine related wiring pinouts are the same as '92-'96 WRXs and STIs. This means a couple of things: 1. You can drop in a (usually) cheap JDM turbo motor/ECU without tons of wiring work. 2. You can use a variety of plug-n-play programmable ECUs meant for the world market '92-'96 WRX/STIs.
All Subaru front brakes (outside of '05+ STI) will bolt to the early Legacy spindle. This gives virtually endless combinations of brake weight, power, balance and looks to expirement with.
All first generation Legacies came with rear disc brakes. So much of the same type of experimenting for the front can also be done at the rear.
All of the hardware not mentioned in the first section is dimensionally the same as the donor WRXs (not STIs). All the same wheels and tires fit.
Virtually all of the hard mounted points for engine bay accessories are the same. For example : the bracket FFR designs for the donor overflow bottle, air filter, or fuse box will fit the Legacy parts also.
The extreme low cost of the donor leaves $room$ to upgrade the stuff you were going to upgrade anyways. Seats, steering wheel, rims and tires, etc.

And finally, wiring wise -first gen Legacies are really the only Subaru that can start with a cheap normally aspirated build and add a turbocharged motor later without rewiring the whole harness. ALL early Legacies (turbo and not) have the same basic pinouts as the earliest WRX/STI turbos. No other Subaru can boast that trait. For those, like me, that can only throw a few hundred a month (after buying the kit) at a project that is huge. It also could be the difference between buying a kit and driving it sooner (at low power), or waiting and saving - but not driving. In the end, both have good power. One got driven more, one has newer components.

Also of note is that converting from early SOHC heads to early DOHC heads is a non-electrical thing on the early motors. A good combo for the early Legacy harness would be (any EJ block) + Ej20K STI heads + EJ20G intake manifold and throttlebody + properly selected turbo. Early cars came with a wierd 90 degree casting on the turbo, but manifold spacers will allow the later 'direct' entry turbos to work.


In any case, just some info and ideas for those thet might balk at the seemingly high price of Subaru motor builds or the nuances of 'newer' Subaru engine control wiring.

[Cyle]

I totally like the points that you are making. I am planning a build and when i see everyone ready to spend a boat load of cash to build a truly awesome 818 i have to ask why. The power to weight on this car is going to be great even with a standard WRX motor. I plan on finding a low dollar WRX like this one that is currently on craigs list. http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/2967967867.html

For 2500 i can have what i need. That particular one does not run because of the accident but there are plenty just like this that i find from $2000 to $4000.

Cyle Sacramento ,Ca

[Xusia]

Wow, PhyrraM, that's a great write up. I'm trying to go cheap as well, so this is definitely intriguing. The only thing that really worries me is the condition of the mechanicals. A lot of cars from those years will have 150k - 200k miles. Still, could be an option to run it until it's not feasible to repair and then go with something else...

[StatGSR]

I like your style!

[PhyrraM]

.... The only thing that really worries me is the condition of the mechanicals. A lot of cars from those years will have 150k - 200k miles. ......

That's a very valid concern.

I'm not sure what most Roadster or GTM builders do, but I would think that stuff like new wheel bearings and engine/transmission seals would be done regardless of donor year. If so, that nullifies the advantage of the newer cars. If not, I wonder if the savings of the much cheaper donor will pay for the rebuilding of knuckles, calipers and such?

I, personally, was thinking to clean, repack, reseal, and repaint most of my donor parts. In my mind, that takes care of most of the mileage issues. Also, many donor cars were well taken care of and may have tons of new(ish) replacement parts, but still sell for pennies because most of the intended market is too busy looking at used Camrys and Accords (for the value?!? lol).

I also am blessed with a very large stash of Subaru parts, so while I presented a 'scaleable' build, mine would be turbocharged from the inital build. However, I would build it just like presented - with early generation parts.

[Nuul]

The high miles are going to be the case of just about any donor you buy; that's the reason I'm doing a rebuild on my engine. Unless you're going with a JDM engine swap I really don't see spending $10K though, you can do it for much much less and still make a more power than a sane man would want. My WRX donor + engine rebuild + tune is only going to cost me about $6000 total. After I part out the roller I should recoupe at least $500 and at most $2000 so the price becomes even less. What I'm getting at is that anyone who's wanting to get their donor should do so now - once the kit is out and the NASIOC crew catch on the donor price is going to skyrocket. I got mine for $3000 so the deals are still out there if you watch.

[riptide motorsport]

makes sense.

[skullandbones]

The donor issue (new vs used parts) can be extremely variable. I still will have to wait a while longer (GoKart) before I know for sure the trans, rearend, and some other donor parts really work to my standards. That's the chance you take. My donor had 60k (92GT). I saw a 05 Legacy for 2900 with right front end damage but it was in NJ. That's a long haul from AZ. I hope to find one around 3k but nothing so far. Unlike you Nuul I don't have a stockpile of Subaru parts so it will be an uphill battle. WEK.

Note: PhyrraM, Nice overview of variants in the build process. I think FFR has tried to do the same thing to accomodate those who are on a very tight budget such as the trimming of the gauge pod and use of the adaptor kit supplied by FFR. So keep up the good work! I really like the idea of being able to use the Legacy harness for na and then converting later. Thanks!

[NonProfit]

Here is a list of the differences

PhyrraM, this is gold! Thanks.

[PhyrraM]

...... I really like the idea of being able to use the Legacy harness for na and then converting later.

I do too. Just be aware that if you choose the first-gen Legacy path, you are locked into pre-98(ish) engine stuff, even when going to turbo motors. Not all parts, but the electrically related ones. Pure hardware stuff like twin scroll turbos and various intercoolers can all work with the old electrics, but newer heads, and AVCS won't work. I, personally, don't feel that is a negative. However, I do understand that many will not agree with me and feel that things like AVCS, fly-by-wire throttle, and OBD2 reflashes are needed for maximum effectiveness.

[metalmaker12]

The high miles are going to be the case of just about any donor you buy; that's the reason I'm doing a rebuild on my engine. Unless you're going with a JDM engine swap I really don't see spending $10K though, you can do it for much much less and still make a more power than a sane man would want. My WRX donor + engine rebuild + tune is only going to cost me about $6000 total. After I part out the roller I should recoupe at least $500 and at most $2000 so the price becomes even less. What I'm getting at is that anyone who's wanting to get their donor should do so now - once the kit is out and the NASIOC crew catch on the donor price is going to skyrocket. I got mine for $3000 so the deals are still out there if you watch.

I agree, I got one for 2k with no motor. I am in search of an engine right now. I am using whitline bushing, getting new bearings and rebuilding the steering rack with a 12:1 ratio. I got all the hardware i needed for 1k. My motor should be 2500- 3500, I might not rebuild right away, but I would put a new timing belt etc as sone as I get it. If you wait too long the price is going to go way up.

[Xusia]

I just don't buy that the 818 being released is going to have impact on prices whatsoever. Here's my logic...

Prices are based on supply and demand, and supply seems pretty high - especially for older cars (hence the low prices). FFR can only produce so many kits per week. Even if all those kits were 818 kits - which they won't be - that volume represents the maximum increase in demand compared to right now (baring something else, of course). As a percentage of the overall demand, that increase in volume probably isn't measurable. To put it another way, compared to the MILLIONS of potential donors made, how much do think a few hundred more people each year looking for those cars is going to matter?

Also, did the price of mustangs suddenly rise with the release of the Roadster? I don't think so...

[shinn497]

Xusia I agree

However, it is hard to know . The 818 is breaking new ground for FFR because of its price and running gear.

When the GTM released, it didn't change the cost of a corvette c5 BUT the price for the G50 transaxle tripled. However it is hard to know exactly why. Also the gtm was much more expensive and sold in smaller quantities. The 818 is going to be FFR's cheapest kit yet.

Phyrra what do you think the cheapest kit is that can mate to an ej207 (or ej257). It is kind of my goal to use that engine and I'd like to do it for ~15k (which is kind of possible if everything else is can be for dirt cheap).

[Xusia]

I think the cost of the G50 tripled because they are fairly rare (poor supply), so any increase in demand probably had an impact. The Subaru parts we need might as well be air, they are so common...

[PhyrraM]

Phyrra what do you think the cheapest kit is that can mate to an ej207 (or ej257). It is kind of my goal to use that engine and I'd like to do it for ~15k (which is kind of possible if everything else is can be for dirt cheap).

The EJ207 (Version 7 at least) is a cable throttle operated motor. It's from the ROTW (rest of the world) version of the 'bugeye' WRX STI. It is best run by a harness from a 'bugeye' WRX ('02-'03). The install of a EJ207 into a '02-'03 WRX is well documented and fairly easy. You have a choice to either use the OEM WRX ECU and disable AVCS - OR - add the AVCS wiring (about 4 wires) and use the STI EJ207 ECU to enable the AVCS. The EJ207 ECU will not pass the OBD2 smog test if that's a concern.

So, look for an '02 or '03 WRX. They should generally be the least expensive of all the reccomend donors.

[skullandbones]

I agree with most of what has been said regarding supply and demand. I don't think the 818 sales will cause a great change in price but some will try to leverage the opportunity to get a few extra dollars especially if they are monitoring the situation. What I don't understand is why the prices are as high as they are and why I can't seem to find a donor so far in the right price range. There must be some contributing factor in play. WEK.

[shinn497]

What about an 02-03 impreza?

[PhyrraM]

What about an 02-03 impreza?

While I have not inspected that particular harness, consider that Subaru guys tend to swap complete harnesses rather than disect them when swapping to a turbo motor in those years. Virtually all the engine and ECU related connectors are different between turbo and non-turbo.

If you start with a regular Impreza, I would source a WRX harness for it.

[Etos]

I agree with most of what has been said regarding supply and demand. I don't think the 818 sales will cause a great change in price but some will try to leverage the opportunity to get a few extra dollars especially if they are monitoring the situation. What I don't understand is why the prices are as high as they are and why I can't seem to find a donor so far in the right price range. There must be some contributing factor in play. WEK.

The only thing in play is subaru owners either playing the mexican hat deal and/or over valuing their cars. Just look at the GC 2.5 RS. People still want 5-10k for those cars while the 02/03 bugeye rex value is close to 5k now.

Us subaru owners as a whole are pretty horrible. We want everything cheap but at the same time expect top dollar for our sales. More so then any other brand enthusiasts. You just have to haggle away for even weeks sometimes before they'll bite.

[skullandbones]

Etos,
I was wondering about that possibility. I belonged to a group known as sailors. All they want is "Wind, water, and information". They are notoriously cheap (but have money for the most part) but want the very best for nothing. I do appreciate the heads up because so far I have hit a brick wall with this but now I can understand the environment a little better. Hunting down Mustang parts was not very exciting. This sounds like a real challenge. Thanks, WEK.

[StatGSR]

I agree with most of what has been said regarding supply and demand. I don't think the 818 sales will cause a great change in price but some will try to leverage the opportunity to get a few extra dollars especially if they are monitoring the situation. What I don't understand is why the prices are as high as they are and why I can't seem to find a donor so far in the right price range. There must be some contributing factor in play. WEK.

the reason its hard to find a well priced wrx donor is because there are way more subaru guys out there already looking for cheap/wreaked wrxs because they want to swap the drive train into their non-turbo impreza/legacy/forester. the 818 will have no impact on the demand that already exists within the subaru community.

keep in mind that alot of these cars that are owned by enthusiasts go through full down to the body only part outs, which is another great way to gather parts instead of buying a full donor, but as has been said here, you can also just buy a old $500 donor and get pretty much everything you need to get an 818 up and running. heck i already have a 98 legacy gt shell in my shed, if i never swap over my eg33 to that shell, i will probably end up using it for an 818. that rolling shell only cost me about $200

[RossLH]

Sounds like a well thought out budget build. Also, EJ20G heads make for an awesome, raw sound. Gotta love em.

[riptide motorsport]

Do Old EJ motors have distributors? manifold type injection? Can I purchase a manifold and carb this motor? No computers like with the old 5.0 stang motors? thanks Steven

[PhyrraM]

Do Old EJ motors have distributors? manifold type injection? Can I purchase a manifold and carb this motor? No computers like with the old 5.0 stang motors? thanks Steven

Nope. The EJ series was a fresh design in '89 using all the current tech. All have distibutorless ignition, so no EJ has a spot for a distributor. The same for fuel injection, no carby manifolds.

[StatGSR]

Do Old EJ motors have distributors? manifold type injection? Can I purchase a manifold and carb this motor? No computers like with the old 5.0 stang motors? thanks Steven

they did not come carb'd as mentioned above, but they have been converted before, i think there is an old escort dizzy that is commonly used, so it can be done, not sure what kinda cost it took to do it, and not sure what kinda performance they were getting out of em, but do some googling, and you can find more information.

[PhyrraM]

The only ones that I know of that have had a distibutor added were the original "small" SOHC heads ('90-98ish). They do have a bracket on the back that can be removed to access the back of the cam. All the ones I have seen have been for experimental aircraft, so would start the search there.

Come to think of it, there was a 1.6 liter EJ motor for non-North American markets. It may have a carb or a dizzy, I know it was intended for non-mass-market markets - they usually value servicablity over most other requirements.

[EvilJack]

I have been trying to under stand the high prices of used imprezza's as well. I know certian cars keep their value better, but its kinda odd to find a $5k Impreza with 150k+ miles, but you can finds cars like a Camaro for $5k that have 70k miles. I give this example because both the Imprezza and Camaro are in no short supply here.

I am glad that F5 is using a donor that is easy to obtain. I found out about his kit while searching for info about other kit cars. Most of them using Fiero or MR2 donors. Those cars are hard to come by these days.

[BrandonDrums]

The EJ207 (Version 7 at least) is a cable throttle operated motor. It's from the ROTW (rest of the world) version of the 'bugeye' WRX STI. It is best run by a harness from a 'bugeye' WRX ('02-'03). The install of a EJ207 into a '02-'03 WRX is well documented and fairly easy. You have a choice to either use the OEM WRX ECU and disable AVCS - OR - add the AVCS wiring (about 4 wires) and use the STI EJ207 ECU to enable the AVCS. The EJ207 ECU will not pass the OBD2 smog test if that's a concern.

So, look for an '02 or '03 WRX. They should generally be the least expensive of all the reccomend donors.

I think JDM OBDII ECU's have the same emissions codes as the USDM ECU's. In NC, as long as the ECU doesn't have any active emissions trouble codes, they'll pass you. Having looked at a few JDM ECU samples, they appear to have the same trouble code setup at the USDM ecu's.

Here's the code you disable when you go catless as seen on a '02 JDM Version 7 STI.

http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af89/BrandondrumsWRX/CatCodeDisableV7STIEJ207.png

Is there another issue you were referencing with the inspections?

[PhyrraM]

Is there another issue you were referencing with the inspections?

OBD2 cars are not my forte', but I always read that the V7 won't communicate with the testing equipment (and cause a fail) because the proper protcol couldn't be established. I know that the V7 ECUs have the SSM protocol, but do they have any of the federally mandated protocols and PIDs?

If what I have read isn't true - cool. Your screen shot looks like the typical Nasticok misleading have struck again.

[Evan78]

In California, my understanding is that in addition to not reporting any active emissions trouble codes, the ECU must report a "ready" state on several sensors. In other words, the absence of trouble codes is not all that is being checked for.

[RossLH]

Readiness codes can be forced with a 16-bit ECU, though I'm not sure about 32-bit ECU's. With a 16-bit ECU, the emissions computer will read exactly what you want it to read. That form of emissions testing is a joke, and I love it.

[StatGSR]

In California, my understanding is that in addition to not reporting any active emissions trouble codes, the ECU must report a "ready" state on several sensors. In other words, the absence of trouble codes is not all that is being checked for.

all the more reason to use an obd1 donor, no reading allowed...

[RossLH]

In such a case they'll put the car on rollers and hook up a sniffer instead. If it wont pass the OBD2 test, it sure as hell wont pass the sniffer. Having an OBD2 ECU allows you to dictate the emissions readings to their computers.

[Thorne]

all the more reason to use an obd1 donor, no reading allowed...

you can flash a subaru ecu to force readness pass

not legal ... Just saying it's a option

[BrandonDrums]

OBD2 cars are not my forte', but I always read that the V7 won't communicate with the testing equipment (and cause a fail) because the proper protcol couldn't be established. I know that the V7 ECUs have the SSM protocol, but do they have any of the federally mandated protocols and PIDs?

If what I have read isn't true - cool. Your screen shot looks like the typical Nasticok misleading have struck again.

Well, I'm not sure about the other stuff. All I know about this stuff is through my own opensource tuning using a tatrix cable, ECU Flash and Enginuity. I'm just looking at the Rom file on Romraider which tells me JDM ECU's are extremely similar to USDM models in terms of tables, codes, etc... As far as USDM OBD-II readers not being able to establish the proper protocol and JDM ECU's not having ready statuses etc., your guess is as good as...no actually probably a heck of a whole lot better than mine lol.

Plus, I bet that a lot of the stuff varies state by state so what you heard could be both true and false depending on the place. Some states recognize foreign market makes as legal license-able cars, others don't. Testing equipment might go hand in hand with that.

I do know that there are a lot of guys here in my town that have JDM swapped subies as DD's. Not sure if they are getting inspections under the table or not though, perhaps I can ask around to find out.

[BrandonDrums]

Just thought of something, if you're swapping in a JDM ECU, I wonder if you can 'retain' the OEM Ecu and force readiness pass as Thorne pointed out. Then when they hook up the OBD-II, it's to the stock ECU and you can tuck the OBD plug for the new ECU elsewhere behind the dash. There should be enough room to cram both units up there.

That would be a long-shot probably not worth it solution. Best thing to do if push comes to shove is find a performance shop nearby and chat them up about getting it passed or where to take it to do so. You'd be surprised how common it is to get forged inspection papers. I did it for 3 years until the new OBD emissions laws came out, then I started taking it to Jiffy lube lol.

[riptide motorsport]

I'm soooooooo confused!!!:confused:

[RossLH]

Just thought of something, if you're swapping in a JDM ECU, I wonder if you can 'retain' the OEM Ecu and force readiness pass as Thorne pointed out. Then when they hook up the OBD-II, it's to the stock ECU and you can tuck the OBD plug for the new ECU elsewhere behind the dash. There should be enough room to cram both units up there.

That is....a lot more work than it is worth. At the end of the day, how important to you is AVCS?

[shinn497]

Hmmmm if you have the SB100 and get a stock engine initially don't you never have to smog your car again? This would be my plan...

[skullandbones]

Hmmmm if you have the SB100 and get a stock engine initially don't you never have to smog your car again? This would be my plan...

I thought this was the basic concept of this thread to keep the budget low for the first couple of years for a project. The AVCS sounds like something an advanced tuner would utilize and the equipment would have to be 2004 or even 2008 technology to incorporate. Isn't that right? Or is there a way to piggyback the newer stuff onto the old technology? Thoughts. WEK.
:confused:

[PhyrraM]

Yes, my original intent was to provide some ideas - using older parts - that a build can be fairly budget without giving up most of the capabilities. However, I always enjoy the conversation.

I speak only for LEGAL California inspections. Some states follow the California rules, some are 'close', and many do not. I don't know what each state does, but, in general, if you can squeak it through California inspections it should pass anywhere. Emmisions related only!! Many states have other inspections to pass (safety, rust, etc) that California does not.

A few thoughts and clarifications:

The '89-'94 Legacy harness is the only one that I know of that can start non-turbo and later swap a turbo without pulling and redoing the harness. All the later cars have significant differences between turno and non-turbo. However, using the Legacy harness locks you into using phase 1 (approx pre-'99) equipment for electrically related components. This means no AVCS cam timing, no reflashable OEM ECUs, and no fly-by-wire throttles. I, personally, don't see this as a big deal on an 1800 pound car kit car. The ECUs are 'chippable' old school style, and there are 3rd party plug-n-play ECUs available. Even with that extra expense the saving in the donor more than makes up for it.

California OBD2 inspections have both a plug-in ECU check (2 parts), a sniffer test, and a EVAP test. 1st, the plug in test is looking for active codes. This is the same as pre-OBD2 test making sure the CEL is off. The second part is making sure all the Readnyness monitors have cleared. Folks got smart years back and would reset the ECU to clear codes, run to the smog test and pass before the code came back. Now the Guberment has dictated that when the ECU is reset certain 'flags' are set that monitor some basic functions. The flags don't get reset until the car has been run and driven enough miles (and heat-up/cool-down cycles) for the ECU to evaluate if that system is functioning properly. They usually say 50 miles or so, but my wifes Madza Tribute took over 200 last time. They will not let you test (or pass) if any of the readyness monitors (flags) are still not cleared. These are checked through the OBD2 connector, and as shown in the earlier post, can be faked on a Subaru ECU with the proper cable and free software (and an educated owner).
The sniffer part should be passable by any well-running car. The EVAP test simply makes sure you gas tenk is sealed and your gas cap is functioning properly.

[PhyrraM]

Hmmmm if you have the SB100 and get a stock engine initially don't you never have to smog your car again? This would be my plan...

As I understand it, SB100 gets you one of two things. The opportunity to register as 'the year of the car your replicating' (meant for hot-rods and Cobras) or registering as the year of your motor.

Again, as I understand it, anything non-SB100 gets registered as the current year. This would seem to make anything but using a new crate motor, and all support functions, impossible. Which would be suprising and draconian, even for California.

[PhyrraM]

I thought this was the basic concept of this thread to keep the budget low for the first couple of years for a project. The AVCS sounds like something an advanced tuner would utilize and the equipment would have to be 2004 or even 2008 technology to incorporate. Isn't that right? Or is there a way to piggyback the newer stuff onto the old technology? Thoughts. WEK.
:confused:

The idea of 'adding' AVCS come from the idea of using a JDM version 7 or 8 motor. These have ECU pinouts 95% compatable with the '02-'03 (possibly '04-'05 also) WRX, which IS an official donor. The 5% difference is the wires for the AVCS.

The V7 and V8 motors a generally considered a huge step up from the stock. There are two ways of running them. 1st, with the stock USA WRX ECU and not using the AVCS or 2nd, adding the AVCS wires and using the JDM ECU. Both have been done with success (in Subarus). The unknown, as it discussed in this thread, is can the JDM ECU pass the plug-in portion of a emissions test? With a proper tune for our gas (required on either ECU) it will pass the sniffer portion no problem.

[Arrowhead]

So lets say I was going to do a lower budget build and am going to use a Megasquirt ECU (speed density, no OBDII and no mass air). I can run any intake / turbo I want. I would probably want one with EFI so I can use the stock injector locations and coil on plug so I can run the ignition also (I know I can control a dizzy w/ the MS also, but just like the clean COP install). What would be a good donor?

[skullandbones]

So you can take or leave the AVCS. I guess I missed that part. Also, now I see why the two ECUs for tricking the plug in test for emissions. It sounds like the worst case scenario would be that you would have to upgrade to a compatible wiring harness if you went to a turbo later for some versions.

Just curious but how is it that the Japanese versions get into the US anyway? It looks like customs would block that. WEK.

[PhyrraM]

So lets say I was going to do a lower budget build and am going to use a Megasquirt ECU (speed density, no OBDII and no mass air). I can run any intake / turbo I want. I would probably want one with EFI so I can use the stock injector locations and coil on plug so I can run the ignition also (I know I can control a dizzy w/ the MS also, but just like the clean COP install). What would be a good donor?

In the situation you describe, the donor with the motor you wish to use - seeing as that will be your next biggest expense.

Once you remove the motor from the equation, Subarus are all basically the same (within certain year restricitions) - differing only in details. When FFR releases the kit, we will know which of those small details will matter most.

[Arrowhead]

I guess what I was getting at is what years are EFI and COP? Or are all of them? 89 and up? I wouldn't even object to buying an engine that needed a rebuild just to freshen it up.

[StatGSR]

I guess what I was getting at is what years are EFI and COP? Or are all of them? 89 and up? I wouldn't even object to buying an engine that needed a rebuild just to freshen it up.

All EJs are EFI, no EJ in the states came COP to my knowledge they all use a coil pack, some overseas EJs did come with COP, but i'm not extremely familiar with any of them...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_EJ_engine

[PhyrraM]

Yep, all EJs are fuel injected. No EJ has a distributor, and all timing functions are in the ECU.

Most have coil packs mounted on the manfold w/wires to the plugs. Early years had a seperate ignition ignitor/amplifier while later years had the ignitor built in. '02+ turbo motors (WRX/STI, etc) have 4 individual coils mounted on the plugs. they have built in ignitors and take the ECU output directly.

[StatGSR]

Just curious but how is it that the Japanese versions get into the US anyway? It looks like customs would block that. WEK.

make a call and buy one? there is nothing illegal about a JDM engine, heck in many applications there are hardly any differences between a US and JDM engine (talking generically here not just about subarus), so there is no reason for customs to stop it. Even in Cali jdm swaps are completely legal for street use so long as the engine is the same age or newer than the engine it replaces, and so long as it still passes emissions testing.

[shinn497]

As I understand it, SB100 gets you one of two things. The opportunity to register as 'the year of the car your replicating' (meant for hot-rods and Cobras) or registering as the year of your motor.

Again, as I understand it, anything non-SB100 gets registered as the current year. This would seem to make anything but using a new crate motor, and all support functions, impossible. Which would be suprising and draconian, even for California.

Right so you register it as bodystyle and it gets a non-identifiable body. Apparently you can get a smog exemption this way. It has worked for a previous forum member. (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?1457-CARB-SB100-and-all-that-fun-stuff). I still would take this with a grain of salt as this is an exploitable loophole (considering the car is a modern design with a relatively modern engine).

[Arrowhead]

Yep, all EJs are fuel injected. No EJ has a distributor, and all timing functions are in the ECU.

Most have coil packs mounted on the manfold w/wires to the plugs. Early years had a seperate ignition ignitor/amplifier while later years had the ignitor built in. '02+ turbo motors (WRX/STI, etc) have 4 individual coils mounted on the plugs. they have built in ignitors and take the ECU output directly.

Ok, that makes sense now. I've worked on my son's "02 WRX and noticed it had COP. Sorry for all the newbie Subie questions, but I am Subie fan from waaaay back. Had an '82 Brat back in the '80's. My buddy had and even older Brat that we used to beat the snot out of off road in high school. I was pretty impressed by it's off road capabilities.

[Evan78]

As I understand it, SB100 gets you one of two things. The opportunity to register as 'the year of the car your replicating' (meant for hot-rods and Cobras) or registering as the year of your motor.

Again, as I understand it, anything non-SB100 gets registered as the current year. This would seem to make anything but using a new crate motor, and all support functions, impossible. Which would be suprising and draconian, even for California.
To summarize the relevant portion of the California DMV page on Specially Constructed Vehicles Emission Control (http://dmv.ca.gov/vr/spcns.htm) (shown below), if you're one of the first 500 applicants of the year, you can elect to base the inspection on the model year of the engine, the vehicle model year, or 1960 if the engine or car don't resemble something previously manufactured. The "or" part of that sentence should mean that the 818 can be inspected as a 1960 vehicle.


What is the Specially Constructed Vehicle Emission Control Program?

Existing law requires most 1976 and newer model year vehicles to pass an emissions control inspection (smog check) prior to original registration, transfer of ownership, and every second annual renewal. Since Specially Constructed Vehicles (SPCNS) are homemade and do not have a manufacturer-assigned model year, they must be taken to a Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR) Referee Station for the original inspection. Upon completion of the inspection, the referee will affix a tamper-resistant label to the vehicle and issue a certificate that establishes the model-year for future inspection purposes.

Per California Vehicle Code §4750.1, the first 500 program applicants in each calendar year may choose whether the inspection is based on the model-year of the engine used in the vehicle or the vehicle model-year. If the engine or the vehicle does not sufficiently resemble one previously manufactured, the referee will assign 1960 as the model-year.

After the first 500 vehicles have been registered in any calendar year, all others will be assigned the same model-year as the calendar year in which the application is submitted.

Previously registered vehicles may be included as one of the first 500 applicants in a calendar year and apply for a different model-year determination.

What is an SPCNS Certificate of Sequence?

An SPCNS Certificate of Sequence identifies a vehicle as one for which the owner may choose emission control inspection based on the model-year of the engine used in the vehicle or the vehicle model-year. The certificate is issued by DMV Headquarters and will be mailed 7-10 working days after the application is accepted by your local DMV. The certificate must be presented to the BAR Referee Station at the time of inspection.

Per statute, only 500 certificates can be issued in a calendar year. Once the yearly allotment has been issued, applicants must wait until the following year to apply for a certificate.

SPCNS Certificates of Sequence cannot be transferred to a different vehicle or reissued in someone else's name. The seller of a vehicle must provide the buyer with the SPCNS Certificate of Sequence along with the bill of sale and any additional registration documents. In addition, fees deposited in one year cannot be held over for the next year's allocation of certificates.

Note: Due to the limited number of SPCNS Certificates of Sequence available, you may wish to submit your application for registration in person at a local DMV office.

[PhyrraM]

So according to that, the year will not be 1960, but will be the year of the Subaru engine used.



If the engine or the vehicle does not sufficiently resemble one previously manufactured, the referee will assign 1960 as the model-year.


Because the engine IS a production Subaru engine, it must 'sufficiently resemble one previously manufactured'. No?

[Evan78]

Well, it says "If the engine or the vehicle does not sufficiently resemble one previously manufactured, the referee will assign 1960 as the model-year." If it said "If the engine AND the vehicle..." then it would have different meaning. I imagine more experienced people could shed light on what the typical practice is. I suspect that it could be registered as a 1960 since that is the correct technical interpretation and I don't think there's many people building kit cars AND using non-production engines. If there's an engine equivalent of a kit-car, I'd love to see it.

[StatGSR]

grammar nazi or not, i would suspect they will register it by engine year

[shinn497]

That is what makes sense but this has worked for GTM owners. Check the link.

[Oppenheimer]

Well, it says "If the engine or the vehicle does not sufficiently resemble one previously manufactured, the referee will assign 1960 as the model-year." If it said "If the engine AND the vehicle..." then it would have different meaning. I imagine more experienced people could shed light on what the typical practice is. I suspect that it could be registered as a 1960 since that is the correct technical interpretation and I don't think there's many people building kit cars AND using non-production engines. If there's an engine equivalent of a kit-car, I'd love to see it.

OK, I'll play grammer-Nazi here. How are you understanding the 'or' to indicate that the correct technical interpretation = 1960? If the body looks like a production car, it gets assigned that model year. If the engine resembles a production cars engine, it gets assigned that cars year. If the 818 engine resembles a whatever-year-your-donor-Subie-is, it gets that year, no?

It sounds like maybe your argument is that, since people don't generally build their own experimental engines (nor do kit manufacturers), then therefore the understanding of the SB100 wording should be understood in that light. I see it differently. You are a lawmaker, you don't want to leave room for intepretation, so you try to anticipate all the scenarios your law could be applied to, even ones that are unlikely. Sure, there isn't going to be any kit makers designing their own from-scratch engines, but that does not mean some loon isn't going to build his own one-off from scratch frame, from scratch body, and from scratch engine, and try to reg under SB100.

[PhyrraM]

Just to continue the madness...

What if the question gets asked first?


"Whould you like to register with the body design or the motor?"

"The body please"

"Ok, what is it a replica of?"

"Um....nothing in particular."

"Ok, in that case we will assign a year of 1960. Thank you, please drive thru......Next!"

[Oppenheimer]

A flow chart with just one decision box at the top, and no capability to loop back...

[Nuul]

"Ok, in that case we will assign a year of 1960. Thank you, please drive thru......Next!"

God I hope that's how easy it goes. I titled my WRX yesterday and it took me three trips to tbe BMV because no one could agree on the paperwork I needed filled out for an out of state title. I can only imagine the blue screen of death in the eyes of whatever teller I get when I go to register an 818.

Teller: I'm sorry, I don't see Factory Five as a car makes in our system. Are you sure that's the make?
Me: Yes, it's a kit car and I'm quite certain.
Teller: A what car?
Me: Kit. As in I put it together myself.
Teller: One moment let me get my supervisor.
Teller: I just talked with my angry-man-hating supervisor and she says you'll have to fill out these 12 forms, do a police inspection and get a full rectal exam. Once you have done that, return here and we'll turn you away again for some minor detail. NUMBER 108! NUMBER 109!

[Evan78]

I think my interpretation is wrong. I was focused on that one sentence and the fact that other kit car owners (Cobras, Locusts) have used the first 500 provision of SB100 to register their car's as pre-1976 (smog exempt) vehicles, even when they have modern engines. But perhaps they're only succeed because they resemble pre-76 production vehicles, which obviously doesn't apply to the 818.

Looking at the whole paragraph instead of cherry-picking the sentence I did, we have "Per California Vehicle Code §4750.1, the first 500 program applicants in each calendar year may choose whether the inspection is based on the model-year of the engine used in the vehicle or the vehicle model-year. If the engine or the vehicle does not sufficiently resemble one previously manufactured, the referee will assign 1960 as the model-year." In context of the whole paragraph, I agree with Oppenheimer.

It's probably a waste of time for us to sit around speculating. I'm sure many others have tackled this before and I bet a relatively clear answer is out there if we go looking.

[RM1SepEx]

Just bought my 05 WRX donor today. Roll over with 70K miles from insurance auction. I'm looking forward to reconditioning, powder coating etc... Should make an excellent donor... about $3K shipped to my driveway in Maine. Allowance for reconditioning etc should give me $5000 +/- in donor parts for the kit build right on plan!

Looks to me like F5's 818 build of 15K is doable with a relatively low mileage WRX, not just a NA motor build

Note, it doesn't have any salvageable body parts to sell off! but it does look to have an excellent, STOCK drivetrain.

Yee Haa

Nuul, You IDed that you bought your donor... specifics???

[BrandonDrums]

Just bought my 05 WRX donor today. Roll over with 70K miles from insurance auction. I'm looking forward to reconditioning, powder coating etc... Should make an excellent donor... about $3K shipped to my driveway in Maine. Allowance for reconditioning etc should give me $5000 +/- in donor parts for the kit build right on plan!

Looks to me like F5's 818 build of 15K is doable with a relatively low mileage WRX, not just a NA motor build

Note, it doesn't have any salvageable body parts to sell off! but it does look to have an excellent, STOCK drivetrain.

Yee Haa

Nuul, You IDed that you bought your donor... specifics???

This is the way to do it no doubt. At that rate, I think instead of cannibalizing my beloved WRX, I'll buy something like this and have my AWD hatch for DD and my 2wd roadster for awesomeness. Well, perhaps I'd take my hatch further back to stock by putting a 2.0 back in it.

Either way, nice find!

Congrats!

[Nuul]

Nuul, You IDed that you bought your donor... specifics???

2003 Silver WRX Wagon. The guy that owned it before me had done quite a few mods and broke the engine. I'll be using the top end from the 2005 EJ205 that's in it and getting a new EJ257 bottom end from Subaru. I'll send the heads to Max Power Services once I have the engine pulled to match the EJ257's combustion chamber. After that it's bolt everything together and tune it. I think about the only thing I'm going to be doing to it aside from the new bottom end and tune is probably TGV deletes, a Grimspeed EBCS (currently has a manual BCS) and maybe an STI TMIC. It already came with a VF34, and aftermarket up and downpipe so I don't think I need too much else to meet my 275-325 HP goal.

[RM1SepEx]

I want 10 lbs per HP at the wheels loaded... 1800 lb car, 400 lbs max load I need 220 real WHP... assume 15% loss from engine to wheels I need about 260 HP at the crank. 260 * .85 = 221 HP stock is spec @227 or 193HP to the wheels

260 should be very easy and still be very reliable with a 70K 2.0 based on my Subaru fanatic autocross friends!

I do have a friend who just purchased a dyno for his garage...

Your engine mods/tweaks are Greek to me! :-)

[bugeye_fever]

A dyno for his garage... sounds like you have things to worry about most of us do not! Your problem is easy, any turbo 2.0 with a couple bolt ons.. done! A turbo 2.5 with a tune.. done!

[Evan78]

220-230whp is typical for a 2.0 with stock TD04 turbo, turboback, and tune on a WRX, so you shouldn't have a problem in the 818.

Were you referring to a professional shop when you said garage? A dyno installed in a residential garage would be quite a sight. Wouldn't make you too popular with neighbors unless you're on a BIG lot.

TD04 = small Mitsubishi turbo that came on 2002-2007(?) WRX
Turboback = replacing OEM exhaust between the turbo and the rear of the car. On a WRX, this means downpipe, midpipe, and "catback" exhaust. (diagram (http://www.wrxtuners.com/forums/attachments/f52/5133d1299165736-spt-catback-exhaust-wrx-exhaust-diagram.gif)). Naturally, the 818 will definitely not use all the oem exhaust components.

[shinn497]

remember that in this kit aftermarket exhausts most likely won't fit. HOWEVER, you get less drivetrain lossess due to the RWD conversion. But yeah I think a tune would serve you well.

[Nuul]

Your engine mods/tweaks are Greek to me! :-)

No problem, I can translate.


EJ205: Stock 2.0L in the WRX for most the donor years of the 818
EJ257: Stock 2.5L STI engine
Shaping combustion chamber: The 205 and 257 have a different shaped combustion chamber. When you put 205 heads on a 257 block you should have them reshaped (http://i.imgur.com/YD6cG.jpg).
TGV deletes: Tumble Generator Valves - They reduce cold idle emissions. Once your vehicle is warm, the butterfly valves open fully and remain that way. You can remove these for a few ponies.
Grimspeed Electronic Boost Control Solenoid (http://www.grimmspeed.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=91&products_id=145) - Replaces the stock boost control solenoid. Generally helps get the turbo spooled quicker.
STI TMIC: The Top Mounted Intercooler from an STI. Good to ~400HP according to some. Probably not needed for my build but they are cheap and I prefer they way they look.
VF34: Japanese market STI V7 turbo.

[RM1SepEx]

I live in Maine plenty of space to the neighbors

personal garage... not a "shop" , he also has a complete cnc machine shop in his basement, a 2 post and 4 post lift, 2 garages (Dynocom 15000 dyno BTW)

Being an engineer lends itself to other mechanical and electrical fanatic friends, while I can't justify a personal dyno it's nice to have a friend that will have a new one installed this summer. He is replacing an old eddy current brake emissions dyno that he developed software for... Another friend has that one in his barn, good for about 200 WHP then the belt slips

Thanks for the dictionary, it looks like my goals should be easy.
I think that my donor search shows that it is just a matter of keeping your eyes open... we have to remember what we really "need" I figured that a roll over was best case economics wise... Time will tell, I've seen NA cars going cheap and if you will go for higher mileage it gets a lot easier. Mileage was important to me.

[shinn497]

I would like to bump this to return to the subject of the original post.

The earlier generation legacies seem close to adequate but have issues. I'm wondering, then, what is the earliest car that has the maximum compatibility. For example, I really don't want to source my own 2wd tranny (unless one could be had that is the same size but stronger).

I am actually starting to see the allure to sourcing the parts individually. I am going to take a trip to a junk yard with a parts list to see what the costs would be to try this. Still, I can't help but wonder if one could save by parting out unnecessary parts from a donor.

[Nuul]

It would probably be cheaper to go to erepairables and get your parts that way. You were still wanting to do a JDM engine right? So you'd be looking at $500-750 or so for the wreck + whatever you spend on the engine, ECU, etc.

[PhyrraM]

Well, for 'maximum compatability' stick with the '02-'07 Impreza. First, we know FFR is designing for the wider control arm bushing. Second, is the (currently) unknown compatability of the 2WD conversion kit on early transmissions. 3rd, How much of the 'little bits' they might use (hinges, door handles, etc).

Come to think of it, does anybody even know for sure if '02-'07 non-turbo transmissions can use the same 2WD kit as the same year turbo transmissions? I suspect they do, but don't know for sure.

[Oppenheimer]

I think you'll find the prices at Junkyards rather high. All the 'little bits' will nickle-and-dime your wallet. Best bet for sourcing parts individually would be to find a local guy parting out a wreck (or several different part outs). Most of the donor stuff you are going to need, besides the engine and trans, are mostly stuff the WRX community has no use for, thus will put little value on. So they will be very willing to give that stuff up cheap.

[Nuul]

Come to think of it, does anybody even know for sure if '02-'07 non-turbo transmissions can use the same 2WD kit as the same year turbo transmissions? I suspect they do, but don't know for sure.

I'm with you, I would be amazed if it doesn't.

[JAubin]

Out of curiosity I did a quick searchtempest search (ie searches multiple craigslist locations) for "WRX Parts" and there's a lot of people parting out their cars for various reasons. It's still too early IMHO to buy certain specific components, but I definitely saw some cheap transmissions (~300 w/ chipped gears) turbos, wheels, etc. which could certainly help out if you're looking to do it piece by piece.

[NonProfit]

I'm struggling with the wisdom of donor vs. parts, as well. Does anyone know which of the following components are used across a wide spectrum of Subaru models/years and which are specific to the '02-'07 Impreza?



Here is the list of parts that are being used currently on the prototype:
• Front spindles with full brakes and front lower control arms
• Rear spindles with brakes and parking brake
• Steering rack, tie rod ends, and upper steering column assembly
• Pedal box and throttle
• Master cylinder and brake booster, and clutch master cylinder
• Engine with turbo and intercooler (if WRX model)
• Transmission
• Rear lower control arms, toe links, and CV joints
• Seats and gauge pod
• Fuel pump
• Radiator
• Wheels and tires

[Ironhydroxide]

OK, I HAVE to clear some of the false info here.... Don't hate, ill clarify later when I'm not phone browsing.


The na leggy Ecu harness will run the turbo leggy engine, but needs an extra bit of harness for wastegate control and the like.

ANY GEN 1 LEGGY HARNESS WONT RUN A JDM TURBO WITHOUT REPINNING AND RUNNING A FEW MORE WIRES. This is due to the wasted spark on the ej22t, and the coil on plug for ALL Jdm ej20g/h/k/r/5/7.

There are other differences, but I had to get this off my chest.

[PhyrraM]

OK, I HAVE to clear some of the false info here.... Don't hate, ill clarify later when I'm not phone browsing.


The na leggy Ecu harness will run the turbo leggy engine, but needs an extra bit of harness for wastegate control and the like.

ANY GEN 1 LEGGY HARNESS WONT RUN A JDM TURBO WITHOUT REPINNING AND RUNNING A FEW MORE WIRES. This is due to the wasted spark on the ej22t, and the coil on plug for ALL Jdm ej20g/h/k/r/5/7.

There are other differences, but I had to get this off my chest.

I have always said it's close, and the pinouts are basically the same. It is still too early to get into the details, so I didn't. I have done MANY two channel to 4 channel ignition conversions. This can be done without repinning, but instead adding two pins missing to the ECU connector. The igniton channel issue has been resolved for years for those with early Legacies and a good reading on dedicated forums (LegacyCentral.org)

In any case, adding a few wires and pins to be able to swap from non-turbo>turbo>JDM motors (and back again if needed) is MUCH easier than redoing your whole harness - which is what using newer stuff would require. That was my point - not that it was 100% loophole free.

[PhyrraM]

I'm struggling with the wisdom of donor vs. parts, as well. Does anyone know which of the following components are used across a wide spectrum of Subaru models/years and which are specific to the '02-'07 Impreza?

These answers apply to physical mounting, not electrical or functional equivalents (brake size or wheel size for example). Some problems resolve themselves if using from same donor (Rack/column splines for example)

Here is the list of parts that are being used currently on the prototype:
• Front spindles with full brakes (100% compatable) and front lower control arms (Front bushing width is narrower on older cars and all are WRX wagon track width)
• Rear spindles with brakes and parking brake (100% compatable)
• Steering rack (uses the '02-'04 mounting, uses differnt column splines), tie rod ends (100%), and upper steering column assembly (splines match early racks, bolts MAY be in slightly different postion)
• Pedal box (Two bolts are in slightly different spot) and throttle (Cable throttle- same as '02-'05 WRX)
• Master cylinder and brake booster, and clutch master cylinder (100%)
• Engine with turbo and intercooler (if WRX model) (100%)
• Transmission (100% on mounting, may need a different 2WD conversion kit)
• Rear lower control arms (WRX wagon track width), toe links (WRX wagon track width), and CV joints (Should be OK, there are differences related to year, model and rear diff type)
• Seats (3 of 4 mounts are the same, older cars sit lower) and gauge pod (different, early Legacy is the only cable speedo in Subarus)
• Fuel pump (100%)
• Radiator (different mounts, same style, close in size)
• Wheels and tires (100%)

[NonProfit]

These answers apply to physical mounting, not electrical or functional equivalents (brake size or wheel size for example). Some problems resolve themselves if using from same donor (Rack/column splines for example)
This is great info, thanks PhyrraM!

[shinn497]

It would probably be cheaper to go to erepairables and get your parts that way. You were still wanting to do a JDM engine right? So you'd be looking at $500-750 or so for the wreck + whatever you spend on the engine, ECU, etc.

Just check erepairables and most of even the latest model NA impreza's where at bids of 900$. I'm curious where people are hoping to find such cheap wrecks. I'm still unsure about the JDM engines because I don't know the cost of a twin scroll exhaust manifold, uppipe and down pipe. In addition, I'm waiting to see which parts of the exhaust will be included in the 818 kit.

[Nuul]

Are you counting shipping in that or something? When I made that post I went out and checked, there were a handful of 96-99 in that range.

[shinn497]

Oh I was looking at the 02-07 imprezas only. You are right. The 99s are much cheaper. Now I have to search and see how compatible they are.