A WRX, really?

[Lyonmt]

Of all of the donors available to choose from, why a WRX? They are hard to find and expensive. Why not something that is much more plentiful and less expensive? How about a Civic? They are inexpensive, plentiful and have tremendous aftermarket support (just like the fox body Mustang for their first car). I did a quick search on autotrader and craigslist for a WRX. I found only a handful of cars on each site and they started at $7k and most were over $20k. Look at the Brunton Stalker (http://www.bruntonauto.com/) it uses a Chevy S-10 for it's donor. Granted, it's ugly as sin, but they perform decently. Well, that's my rant. Now tell me why I'm wrong...

[subyrod]

Your rant has some points. But, a Civic has a 1.6 to 1.8L sohc engine that makes 100-140hp and even less torque. You might as well put that in an Ariel atom or some exo car. I think FFR is trying to do something more complete and performance oriented than that. Other guys have suggested using the fwd V8 in an Impala SS as well, there's lots of potential cars to use. But, the flat 4 turbo of the WRX is a big plus. Huge power potential. Shoot, my WRX makes 280hp from 2.0L's and the stock turbo. I was getting on the freeway last night blasting through the gears up to about 80 and was like "Man! I can't imagine what this would feel like if I was in an MR 1800lbs sports car, that'd be such a blast". My 2002 WRX cost me $8500 last year with 115k miles on it and it had $4000 in mods already done to it. As time goes on, they'll get cheaper too. It's just like the Mustang as a donor for the Cobra kit. The WRX is a sporty factory piece with tons of potential in the drivetrain and proven race pedigree and HUGE aftermarket. To me the WRX makes all the sense. Plus I've got one already, so my donor is set to go. I was thinking of getting a personalized plate that says "FFRDONR" LOL. :)

[Turboguy]

Well, that's my rant. Now tell me why I'm wrong...


Easy. Honduh's suck balls. hehe - just kidding.


But realistically speaking -- if you take the hottest Civic out there, use a whack of aftermarket parts and wring every last HP from it's motor -- it's still down on HP compared to a stock WRX. Give a WRX or STi motor a bit of lov'in and you'll hit 400HP in short order. Plus they're pretty much bullet-proof.

Boo-yeah!

[riptide motorsport]

Apples and oranges,,ones quality ones cheesy.

[spaceywilly]

$7k sounds about right. You should be able to sell at least $2k worth of parts off of the donor car, leaving you right at the $15k target price.

The WRX also has an aftermarket community that is as big or bigger than Honda's. Google "Wicked Big Meet" if you don't believe me.

The 02-07 WRX with a completely stock engine weighs 3100lbs and does 0-60 in 5.5 seconds. This engine in an 1800lb, mid-engine, rear-wheel drive car, is going to be absolutely amazing to drive. Could they have gone with a less expensive donor? Yes, probably, but at the expensive of performance and overall "funness" of the car.

[MikeK]

Also listen to the two of those cars, properly tuned with the right performance accessories for each, not riced out, The honda still sounds like a ricer, no matter what you do to it. Those WRX's sound awesome, even stock. If the car ends up looking close to the rough drawing, I'm doing one, but if it was going to sound like a souped up blender, I think I would pass. I have never owned a Japanese car in my life and had no plans of ever owning one, but I may soon own a japanese powered one.

[thebeerbaron]

The other thing worth mentioning is that your donor will not come from Craigslist or Autotrader. You'll get a better deal by buying a wrecked car. A quick look at some salvage sites shows WRXes available for much more reasonable sums. And you'd still be able to sell off some parts to recoup your investment.

[Hondaslayer]

Exactly,

A wrecked US WRX can be had for as little as $3,000 (or less!) and I have no idea where the op looked but they are easy to find, have a huge community of knowledgeable people (unlike the Honda community) and parts interchangeability is great! As much as I like the idea of a WRX swap, I have actually been entertaining the idea of using my Outback Sport as a swap candidate for several reasons. 1: The body is complete **** (prior owner wrecked it a few times) 2: the engine is getting up there in age (180k) so tearing it down and building up into a cammed/high compression N/A motor is not out of the question and will provide a nice torquey powerband in a light car 3: I already own it and am planning on replacing it anyway :lol:

If you are looking for a wrecked WRX there are plenty of communities out there that contain vendors etc.... The largest community is the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club (NASIOC.com). For wrecked cars / parts a great company is Millenium Auto (y2kimports.com) Frank is the owner and the guy that answers the phone, he is a firey hot tempered Italian so be prepared for that, but he is honest and a genuinely good guy (just don't piss him off!)

Outside of that, you can also purchase wrecked WRX/STI models from Japan and sell off the bits you don't use at a premium (JDM parts command a pretty penny here) though if your state does emissions testing those cars will not pass as they (well most of them) are not OBD compliant.

[Kasmodean]

Another view of why not to use a honda engine is the legality of engine modifications. Registering kit cars can get hairy in many states, and adding a modified engine into that mix only makes it worst.

It is in FFR best interest to use a donor that makes good power stock. It is hard to get people excited about a 100-140 HP car. I do realize most people will modify the car anyways, but not all. Some people do care about being 100% street legal. FFR realizes this and has to live within the constaints of promoting their product without encouraging illegal behavior.

[Oppenheimer]

As was mentioned, the first reason is HP. If you want to compare costs, compare the cost of a wrecked Civic, plus all the cost just to get it to 227 hp (stock WRX). That would be the figure to compare to the cost of a wrecked WRX.

Other reasons include the flat (boxer) engine configuration. Much lower CG. Also, the engine is mounted longitudinal, not transverse, and the driveshafts are equal length. These things make it much better suited for this application than most any FWD car out there.

[BrandonDrums]

Also, WRX might be the target donor but as it's been said elsewhere in these forums..."subaru's are like leggos". It will be just as easy to use most subaru models. For example, Forresters are essentially an impreza with a different body. An alternative to a wrx would be a turbo Forrester as a donor since suspension and engine components are 100% interchangeable.

[Kc_Shane]

I have not used these sites. But have started searching for deals.

http://www.carfrom.us/car/search/act...ake=SUBARU_WRX

http://erepairables.com/salvage/subaru/Impreza+WRX+STi

http://erepairables.com/salvage/cars/subaru

www.copart.com

[Dave Smith]

Much of the above is right on. Also a big factor is export. 1 in 5 FFR's go overseas (I was speaking to our EU distributor today and he is ordering 4 more cars!), still customers overseas have trouble getting alot of the American V8 parts. Honda, other makes were definitely evaluated, still the WRX crew are a loyal bunch and the perf potential is huge. LH/RH drive is a big deal and the parts bin is not limited to the WRX as the parts we are using are shared down the model line. There are more reasons, but Jim wont tell me... I like the Si parts although we were at the Car & Driver test when the GTM was evaluated... The K1 Attack was there and the running gear was undergunned for the looks and weight (more than they claimed by alot) of the car. We want to be environmentally conscious and re-use parts, we want to be efficient, but we are also Factory Five Racing, and the car HAS to perform.

Dave

[lee4him]

"the car HAS to perform"...These words are exactly why I love this company. The words 'All show and no go' don't exist in F5 vocabulary. Awesome!

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

Much of the above is right on. Also a big factor is export. 1 in 5 FFR's go overseas (I was speaking to our EU distributor today and he is ordering 4 more cars!), still customers overseas have trouble getting alot of the American V8 parts. Honda, other makes were definitely evaluated, still the WRX crew are a loyal bunch and the perf potential is huge. LH/RH drive is a big deal and the parts bin is not limited to the WRX as the parts we are using are shared down the model line. There are more reasons, but Jim wont tell me... I like the Si parts although we were at the Car & Driver test when the GTM was evaluated... The K1 Attack was there and the running gear was undergunned for the looks and weight (more than they claimed by alot) of the car. We want to be environmentally conscious and re-use parts, we want to be efficient, but we are also Factory Five Racing, and the car HAS to perform.

Dave

Dave is right on this......The Attack was intended to run with the stock Accord engine......145hp. I opted to drop the H22a 200hp Honda engine from the Prelude in the Attack, and acceleration was still not what I hoped for. Once it hit 4500rpm and the VVT kicked it, it woke up a bit, but I can't imagine how disappointing the performance would have been with only 145hp to work with.......1800 pounds or not.

I've been saying for years now that anyone who could build a kit like the way the Attack should have been in the first place (easier to assemble and performance to match appearance) they would have a real winner. I have no Subie experience at all, but if the parts truly interchange between all the models like I'm reading here, I think FFR has chosen wisely, and the the donor pool should be pretty deep.......so hopefully we don't run into the problems like the GTM ran into where a vital piece of the kit (transaxle) becomes a very limited and expensive item.

[C.Tree]

I would go with a non-turbo EJ22, 25. But how realistic is getting 325hp out of them? Any examples of a normally aspirated 300+hp EJ? Or at this point would I have to add a turbo / super charger?

[PhyrraM]

~165HP is the most Subaru ever advertized for a normally aspirated EJ25. I'm not sure how far that has been pushed by the aftermarket. Likely not far because of the availability of turbo models. Most enthusists that spend money on modding thier cars started with a turbo model, so the aftermarket also concentrates most of thier efforts on turbo models.

Keep in mind that while Subarus normally aspirated motors have lower HP numbers (@lower RPM) than some of the competitors, the torque and 'under the curve' numbers are usually better.

[subyrod]

The money spent on getting an NA EJ motor to make 300+ hp is not worth it. It'll need high compression (like 13:1 or higher), stand alone ecu, serious head work, big cams, etc.
I would go with a non-turbo EJ22, 25. But how realistic is getting 325hp out of them? Any examples of a normally aspirated 300+hp EJ? Or at this point would I have to add a turbo / super charger?

[Lyonmt]

Wow, you guys really locked onto the Honda thing. I was just saying, how about something other than the WRX? Lotus uses a 4 cylinder Toyota motor. It sounds good and is very quick, with little modification.

I see your points though and I am sure that Dave will have another hit on his hands. I look forward to seeing the final rendering...

[subyrod]

THE Honda motor to use is the K20 or even K24 hybrid (TSX K24 with K20 vtec head). I've seen guys put that in the Elise. The Honda S2000 motors are amazing as well. Many guys are now swapping those into the old Japanese Celicas and AE86 Corollas. The S2000 motor is a pain though, it requires you to use the guage cluster and is expensive to buy and modding doesn't usually get much unless you force induce it. Honda motors are the best naturally aspirated 4 cylinders. The suby and evo's 4g63 and now 4b11 are the best turbo'd 4 cylinders.
Wow, you guys really locked onto the Honda thing. I was just saying, how about something other than the WRX? Lotus uses a 4 cylinder Toyota motor. It sounds good and is very quick, with little modification.

I see your points though and I am sure that Dave will have another hit on his hands. I look forward to seeing the final rendering...

[Marty Prario]

Check out this website regarding Subaru motors. Offroaders have been using Subaru power for quite some time now. Very reliable motors.

http://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/subaru_JDM_motors.htm

[Gollum]

I have no Subie experience at all, but if the parts truly interchange between all the models like I'm reading here, I think FFR has chosen wisely, and the the donor pool should be pretty deep.......

I've seen a guy with old 2.5 Impreza RS's take wreaked '05 STI and convert over the engine, rear diff, suspension, brakes and more over with very little fuss at all. I love that subaru has changed suspension and engine mounting points hardly at all between ALL models throughout the years. They're the most modular brand I've ever seen.


Regarding the topic on hand here, I think a big reason to go with the WRX as a donor over a cheap FWD 4 banger is quite obvious. The H4 is lighter, AND places it's weight lower down. Another benefit is that even the "weaker" 5 speeds are still leaps and bounds stronger than most FWD transmissions. The only reason to go with an inline 4 is to shorten the wheelbase and get the cockpit closer to the rear wheels.

And let's be honest. Find me ONE good Inline 4 cylinder donor that actually costs less than 4k. Here in california, honda capitol of the world it seems, to get a vtec engine donor is way overpriced. B series, H series, K series, all of them, if a vtec model will be a pricey donor that's an inflated market price.

I personally feel they've made a good choice. IF I had to think of a different motor to go with, I'd suggest a VQ35DE. These are extremely cheap motors that can make 300hp NA with ease, and make 250hp stock in most FWD variants. Good transmissions, motor alone isn't much heavier than the subie H4, lighter than many 4 cylinders still. The main drawback to that though, is that I can't think of a single FWD donor that would have much else to give other than drivetrain. In that sense the WRX makes wonderful sense. It has great hubs, wheel bearings, suspension, seats, gauges, etc.

To continue my mini-rant a little bit more. Lotus is the only brand that comes close to "getting it" for me. They make a car that's simple and too the point. Everything on the car has a real purpose. But they're still a little pricey (but still a great deal for what you get). The closest "big" brand I can think of that "gets it" for me is subaru. Their cars have purpose in mind and stay pretty on track with those goals. It's why I think so many owners become so loyal. The car just "works" and even someone who can't change their oil feels that.

[Jo3sh]

And let's be honest. Find me ONE good Inline 4 cylinder donor that actually costs less than 4k. Here in california, honda capitol of the world it seems, to get a vtec engine donor is way overpriced. B series, H series, K series, all of them, if a vtec model will be a pricey donor that's an inflated market price.


I don't think it's the right donor for this car, but the Suzuki Hayabusa motor/trans is a great donor. 1300cc, 10K RPM, 180 HP.

Reference for my statement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5VDCKIl7ew

[BrandonDrums]

Yes, a hyabusa is an awesome motor but not a good donor platform. Where are you going to get the steering rack, suspension interior stuff, brakes wheels etc from if you're using a motorcycle engine for a FFR kit? What happens when you want more than 180 HP?

Also, someone mentioned trying to get 300hp out of an na 2.2 ej. Just get a 2.0 turbo ans spend less getting 300 hp. Or just use the 2.2 with wrx intake exhaust harness etc and make it turbo then tune.

FFR knows what they are doing here. Subarus themselves are a "world platform", why not leverage that for a donor-car concept??

Lest I forget, my 2005 wrx wagon for example has a the 2.5 EJ257 longblock from a 2005 Legacy GT in it now. My 2.0 was old and I threw a bigger turbo on it and it spun a rod bearing. I easily could have fixed the 2.0 shotblock or bought a new longblock from the factory but decided to upgrade and sell off the salvaged engine since many 2.5L guys want the heads from the 2.0 for the higher compression ratio.

The 2.5L bolts right up to every last piece of peripheral in my car; intake, exhaust, throttle, intercooler, turbo, cooling system, oil pan etc. etc. I just upgraded my oil pump to an 08+ STI version for better oiling and have forged pistons and upgraded bearings/rod/crank.

I even use the stock wrx harness on it. I could essentially do that with any EJ series engine, they all fit.

If the added power causes me transmission problems down the line, I will just swap the 6 speed from an STI in there and enjoy a more durable and more sophisticated AWD system with just a couple half-shaft conversions. That's a bit more expensive than the engine but cheaper and more fun than buying a new car. I'll even get an aftermarket DCCD "brain" for the active center diff on the 6MT so I can play with my torque distribution.

Leggos I tell you...Leggos.

[C.Tree]

Is a waste gate on the exhaust side (prior to turbo) and dumps excess exhaust (after turbo)? Is a blow off valve before the throttle body and dumps excess psi to atmosphere? Does a turbo motor run both or one or the other? Trying to learn about turbos!

[Kasmodean]

C.Tree, Yes you are correct.

A wastegate is between engine and turbo (sometimes the wastegate in intregrated into the turbo). Its function is to control the amount of engine exhaust flowing though the turbo. This is important because if it is not adequately controlled, the turbo can increase speed and run out of control, break and then it is possible for the engine to inhale turbine bits. The excess exhaust is either vented directly to the atmosphere (illegal), or into the exhaust system after the turbo.

Blow-off valves go in-between the turbo's compressor and the throttlebody. Its purpose is to allow excess pressure to vent when the throttle body is suddenly closed but the turbo is still making pressure. This is important because if there is no relief of excess pressure, it can create compressor surge and that can also lead to broken turbos. Not all BOV vent to the atmosphere. Stock and some aftermarket BOVs vent back into the intake track before the turbo but after the MAF.

Most turbo engine utilize both a BOV and a wastegate.

P.S. Off-topic questions should be asked in there own thread. You usually get better responses and don't mess up the flow of the original thread.

[subyrod]

2 types of waste gates. Internal is in the turbocharger itself and releases excess pressure/exhaust through the exhaust side fo the turbo. External wastegate between the turbo and engine and releases air to the atmsophere or routed back into the exhaust.
Blowoff valve is between throttle body and intercooler and releases to atmosphere. Bypass valve is similar but puts air flow back into intake. Stock WRX's come with internal wastegated turbos and bypass valves.

[subyrod]

IF you blow a turbo, usually bits will go through the exhaust (lots of oil and smoke). If you have an intercooler, some bits might smack into the inlet of the intercooler. Shouldn't in theory have any engine damage from a blown turbo unless bits blow backwards in the airstream torwards the engine.

[David]

Subaru's are know to be dead reliable and smooth power and the transaxles are very strong as well. The flat 4 will have an incredibly low CG and has a huge aftermarket as has been mentioned.

I for one am pretty darn excited about this car. Performance goal? Lotus Exige Slayer for less than 15-17k...!

Jim has a habit of designing winners! Build it and they will come, just ad some storage this time ;) hehe

David

[Someday I Suppose]

David, maybe a new name for the contest, the LES

As in Lotus Exige Slayer, and I paid LES then you did for that Exige ;)



Subaru's are know to be dead reliable and smooth power and the transaxles are very strong as well. The flat 4 will have an incredibly low CG and has a huge aftermarket as has been mentioned.

I for one am pretty darn excited about this car. Performance goal? Lotus Exige Slayer for less than 15-17k...!

Jim has a habit of designing winners! Build it and they will come, just ad some storage this time ;) hehe

David

[David]

David, maybe a new name for the contest, the LES

As in Lotus Exige Slayer, and I paid LES then you did for that Exige ;)

ROTFLMAO :D Nice one...

Scott, check your PM's!

[Hondaslayer]

I would go with a non-turbo EJ22, 25. But how realistic is getting 325hp out of them? Any examples of a normally aspirated 300+hp EJ? Or at this point would I have to add a turbo / super charger?

You would be the first. Quite frankly an N/A EJ22/25 is going to be very peaky, under a tonne of stress and most likely having to run on C16. 325 out of a factory turbo EJ20/25 is an exhaust and tune away (for the EJ257) or a slightly larger turbo / exhaust / tune for an EJ205

[iamsam]

The WRX is a great platform for many reasons, many of which have been previously mentioned (low CG, robust community, leggos). I'd like to add that there is also precedence:
Porsche 914 Conversion Build Thread: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2055900
Exo Skeleton Kit powered by Subaru: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2093090
Another 914 powered by Subaru: http://www.modified.com/features/0704_sccp_subaru_wrx_powered_porsche_914/index.html
A company who does the 914 conversions: http://www.precisionchassisworks.com/subaru-wrx-powered-porsche-914.html
A motorcycle(!): http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/27/rendered-for-your-pleasure-subaru-wrx-powered-kickboxer-motorcy/

There is more too. Just check youtube and google. WRX & STi engines are global and available everywhere. No need to even think about an NA application and I personally think all this H6 talk is crazy. What could be better than a USDM 2.5 with a custom twin scroll or the JDM with OEM twin scroll in a light weight application like this? People that want more can do some bolt ons to hit 300-350RWHP. People that want a built motor can hit 400-500RWHP easily. Stock 0-60 times on a ~3400lb sti are 4.6 (with a mean clutch dump). The power to weight ratio on this would be much better. The options and configurations are endless which lends a lot of flexibility for the end user.

Bravo FF.

[WRX Wizard]

I have been giving this more thought. The design would put a lot of weight on the rear wheels w/ the trani behind the rear axle and a very short engine in front. Also, older WRX's don't have limited slip so this might be a problem w/ all that power delivered through 2 wheels. Several people posted about the reliability of the Subarus. The early WRX's are very hard on the Trani. I blew 2 nd in mine at 55k mi.(Ok, and over 100 autocrosses).
On a positive side, maybe some 15 in wheels w/ low profile tires would work to raise the revs and provide better access to the power band, like an STI. And lower the car
And I can get very excited about reducing the weight by about 1300 lbs:D
Mark

[Oppenheimer]

I have been giving this more thought. The design would put a lot of weight on the rear wheels w/ the trani behind the rear axle and a very short engine in front. Also, older WRX's don't have limited slip so this might be a problem w/ all that power delivered through 2 wheels. Several people posted about the reliability of the Subarus. The early WRX's are very hard on the Trani. I blew 2 nd in mine at 55k mi.(Ok, and over 100 autocrosses).
On a positive side, maybe some 15 in wheels w/ low profile tires would work to raise the revs and provide better access to the power band, like an STI. And lower the car
And I can get very excited about reducing the weight by about 1300 lbs:D
Mark

A limited slip can be added to the 'front' (our rear) diff. I'm betting that will be a very popular option with these builds.

As for the reliability of the trans, I think part of the issue with the WRX was the traction of the AWD. It puts a lot more load on the drivetrain than 2WD. While the Mid engine will give us more traction than FWD, with a far lighter car, and no AWD, I don't think we'll see anywhere near the drivetrain load.

[mn_vette]

My guess is that we will not have any transmission issues like the WRX has. The AWD launches are what tend to kill these trannies. A light car will help quite a bit on the strain and if the forces are too much the traction at the tires will most likely be the first thing to go.

With the car being this much lighter I'm guessing that we will have to change out the gearing to keep from shifting so often.

[WRX Wizard]

I hope we don't have to use the Subie front Macpherson strut suspension into the kit car as it would make for an excessively tall hood.
Mark

[Dave Smith]

no struts up front. FFR = Performance. Car has to be many things, but it HAS to be FAST. I love the concept of LES. Perfect. Thanks Dave

[wjfawb0]

I have been reading locost books and searching for the car I want to build for the last year. I've owned two 2005 STIs, and the idea of this car at the target price is very interesting to me. I look forward to seeing what FFR comes up with.

[BrandonDrums]

no struts up front. FFR = Performance. Car has to be many things, but it HAS to be FAST. I love the concept of LES. Perfect. Thanks Dave

Sounds like a similar use of parts as your other kits. Are you planning for this kit to use the sway bars this time?

How about struts in the rear?

[Gollum]

I don't think it's the right donor for this car, but the Suzuki Hayabusa motor/trans is a great donor. 1300cc, 10K RPM, 180 HP.

Reference for my statement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5VDCKIl7ew

Main issue with bike engines is figuring out the trans arrangement. Most have sprocket outputs, and a single one at that. Transferring that power to two wheels can be difficult and problematic. Then you also have the issue that the transmissions are only designed to carry a bike with 1000 pounds at most gross weight, and with almost no tire by comparison to a car.

The way to use a bike enigne "right" is to take the head and mount it to a custom block like H1V8.com makes. But that's more than a 10k motor.

Bike engines are neat, but using them in a mass market project is almost impossible.

[Kasmodean]

Main issue with bike engines is figuring out the trans arrangement. Most have sprocket outputs, and a single one at that. Transferring that power to two wheels can be difficult and problematic. Then you also have the issue that the transmissions are only designed to carry a bike with 1000 pounds at most gross weight, and with almost no tire by comparison to a car..

There are ways around these issues. People turn the engine sideways and run a driveshaft to a differential. The added gearing of the diff makes up for the extra weight, but causes extra RPM. Also, when doing this, a dry sump oil systems is usually a needed add-on as the oil pickups in the motorcycle motor are designed with the expectation oil is pushed back, not sideways with acceleration.

The big obstacle with using a motorcycles engine and tranny is that motorcycles don't have reverse. A custom reverse gear has to be made. Custom transmissions usually are expensive as FFR found out with the GTM.


Bike engines are neat, but using them in a mass market project is almost impossible..

Agreed, also, the supply of hayabusa engines is more limited than almost any mass producted car.

[PhyrraM]

In some states, just trying to put a bike engine in a 4 wheeled car is a virtually insurmountable task if you have any hopes of getting it smogged and registered for the street.

[David]

Another huge issue with bike engines, is the lack of torque. They have to be wrapped out in order to make power. Maybe OK fore the track but I think it would be a real drag on the street.

Give me a torquey turbo motor with the wooooosh of the spooling turbo and the pop of the blow off valve. Music!

David

[WRX Wizard]

Any updates in the last almost 2 months?
Mark

[crackedcornish]

updates on what?...the fact that the WRX was a good choice of donors??

[Colvindesign]

You're talking budget about a kit that costs 10 thousand dollars. While 10,000 bucks is not a lot compared to a brand new Mustang GT or what have you..... how many people in the US have 10k just sitting in the bank that can go into a kit that is not complete and still requires a lot of other parts? You can't get a loan to buy an incomplete car that ships to you in multiple crates with "some assembly required".

An 818 or any other car from FFR is not for someone who is broke. I would LOVE to own any one of their products, but realistically I can't. For the people who CAN, the 4,000 for a used civic VS the 6-7000 for a used WRX is a moot point. Plus there will be people out there who will use a different powertrain by modifying what comes from FFR.

While the FFR cars are not for those who are broke, it needs to also be for those who are wealthy, and those who are not at the same time. That means it can be used with a $3000 rear ended 2007 WRX with good parts, or a brand new STi with 20,000 dollars in upgrades.

[readymix]

You're talking budget about a kit that costs 10 thousand dollars. While 10,000 bucks is not a lot compared to a brand new Mustang GT or what have you..... how many people in the US have 10k just sitting in the bank that can go into a kit that is not complete and still requires a lot of other parts? You can't get a loan to buy an incomplete car that ships to you in multiple crates with "some assembly required".


I can get a loan for that. A car loan, likely no, but a home equity loan would do it, and if your bank isn't a bunch of weasels, you'll usually get decent interest rates that are comparable or better than a used car loan. Talk to your bank.

And if your credit isn't a total mess, and you make decent money, you can usually get a Discover Card with a 10-12k limit. Granted, the interest rates are going to be horrendous, but if you can afford a 400-500/mo car payment, you can knock that credit card out pretty quickly.

[Wayne Presley]

I've always wanted to use a bike engine but one off the beaten path for a few reasons. A later model Honda Gold Wing touring bike since it already has a reverse on it, sequential 6 speed trans, has shaft drive output, 1500 and 1800 cc variants, is fairly light and CR is begging for a turbo. It it's compact enough to work in a rear engine or a front engine configuration like a LoCost/Lotus 7 type car. Sort of a mini Panoz LMP looking car would be awesome!

[Turboguy]

I can get a loan for that. A car loan, likely no, but a home equity loan would do it, and if your bank isn't a bunch of weasels, you'll usually get decent interest rates that are comparable or better than a used car loan. Talk to your bank.

And if your credit isn't a total mess, and you make decent money, you can usually get a Discover Card with a 10-12k limit. Granted, the interest rates are going to be horrendous, but if you can afford a 400-500/mo car payment, you can knock that credit card out pretty quickly.


I'm sensing another "if you don't have the money in the bank you shouldn't be building something like this" thread about to start :D

[16g-95gsx]

While I have my own thoughts on whether or not the EJ engine series is the ideal choice for a car like the 818, I do feel that making the Subaru the standard donor is a great. In reality it probably will NOT cost someone 7k for a donor if the buyer does their homework. You can pick up a EJ20TT engine WITH a 5spd trans for around 1100 bucks, this would leave nearly 4000 dollar budget for the little odds and ends like control arms, radiator, hubs, etc. This is for an engine that produced 280bhp in factory form. The choices really appear to be limitless and well within virtually any realistic budget. Again, anyone with a large bank account who doesn't want to put any time into investigating the options out there will likely spend quite a bit more than they have to, but that will be the case regardless of the donor choice.

Again, my personal beliefs here, but I would sure as hell not be using a credit card to buy an 818 and I feel the pricing target is fantastic.

A Hayabusa engine will only reduce the vehicle weight by 100-200lbs. You can modify them and produce more power, but ultimately the torque is going to be significantly reduced, and then you still have to deal with the issue of converting a sprocket based output to a differential. In the end it just isn't going to be worth it, when there are more readily available options that will likely produce a more satisfying and cost effective solution. If you want something that revs high, then consider going with a K20/24 based Honda setup that would still reduce engine weight but produce much more power all around than a Busa. In the end either one would be a custom setup.

[readymix]

I'm sensing another "if you don't have the money in the bank you shouldn't be building something like this" thread about to start :D

It's such a dumb way of thinking. Buying things on credit or borrowed money isn't some awful, irresponsible thing if you use your head and common sense, and have a decent grip on your own finances.
Here's a couple scenarios to compare. I know it's "hollywood" or "baller" to go pay cash for cars and other expensive items. But it's also completely idiotic. I have 10,000 in my account to spend on this project, but I'll take out a loan. Why? Because the 10k in my money market savings earns 2.9%. If my bank is offering home equity loans at 2.9% interest, then I'm breaking even over the course of the loan. And what if there's an emergency where I need that 10k in cash? With a loan, I have that fluid cash to spend as needed on other things.
The whole "if you don't have the money in the bank, you shouldn't do it" attitude is hopelessly short-sighted. If you have control of your own finances, and use your brain, you can easily purchase enjoyable things for yourself without setting yourself up for financial failure.

Hell, I can think of nothing more bone-headed than saying "I saved for the last 3 years to pay for my new Factory Five kit in cash." If you were smart, you'd say "I saved up money for the last 3 years and socked it into a short term CD or Bond earning 5-6%, I'm going to take out a small loan to buy a Factory Five kit with a low interest rate, and over the course of the loan and the CD/bond, I'll actually come out ahead and still have actual fluid assets in my possession when I finish paying off the Factory Five. Then I have a toy car, and more cash/assets in the bank."

[16g-95gsx]

Definately not the topic of this thread.

[Ks2]

if budget is the concern even the N/A 2.5l with 170 hp in a 1800lb car would still be pretty darn fast (add an intake and open the exhaust a bit) with some tuning and other bits the N/A motor can easily make 200 or so HP. cobb makes a set of heads specifically for the N/A motors, lightweight flywheels and pulleys will all fit...

these engines can be had used fairly cheap, generally haven't been beat up (people can get 200k out of the N/A while the turbo version gets rebuilt at 100k if it lasts that long) and get good gas mileage (not sure i would get the ej20tt... i have heard they can be a pain, but it would be an awesome setup in this car)

the 818 is a world car remember, Subaru's sell worldwide where-as there isn't much of a market for hyabusa's in countries that don't have roads...

[PhyrraM]

...(not sure i would get the ej20tt... i have heard they can be a pain, but it would be an awesome setup in this car)...

The main reasons it is considered an "pain" is because the factory setup for the second turbo will not fit a LHD car. A second reason is that no North American model had similier electronics so a full harness swap is required to run it.

Both of those are easily sidestepped when working with a clean sheet like the 818. Physically, the motor is likely to fit with the turbos in place. If not, a tube frame is easily modified. Second, just use the whole twin turbo harness for the complete car. No messing with thying to make two harnesses work together.

[16g-95gsx]

The EJ20tt is an ideal engine for this kind of car. It makes decent power, is dirt cheap, and is easy to find since people are generally lazy and don't want to swap out the unecessary twin turbo setup for a proper single setup. The engine will act just like any other turbo EJ. At 1100 for both the engine AND trans I see no reason to go with an NA setup; at least not because of cost

[BrandonDrums]

It's such a dumb way of thinking. Buying things on credit or borrowed money isn't some awful, irresponsible thing if you use your head and common sense, and have a decent grip on your own finances.
Here's a couple scenarios to compare. I know it's "hollywood" or "baller" to go pay cash for cars and other expensive items. But it's also completely idiotic. I have 10,000 in my account to spend on this project, but I'll take out a loan. Why? Because the 10k in my money market savings earns 2.9%. If my bank is offering home equity loans at 2.9% interest, then I'm breaking even over the course of the loan. And what if there's an emergency where I need that 10k in cash? With a loan, I have that fluid cash to spend as needed on other things.
The whole "if you don't have the money in the bank, you shouldn't do it" attitude is hopelessly short-sighted. If you have control of your own finances, and use your brain, you can easily purchase enjoyable things for yourself without setting yourself up for financial failure.

Hell, I can think of nothing more bone-headed than saying "I saved for the last 3 years to pay for my new Factory Five kit in cash." If you were smart, you'd say "I saved up money for the last 3 years and socked it into a short term CD or Bond earning 5-6%, I'm going to take out a small loan to buy a Factory Five kit with a low interest rate, and over the course of the loan and the CD/bond, I'll actually come out ahead and still have actual fluid assets in my possession when I finish paying off the Factory Five. Then I have a toy car, and more cash/assets in the bank."

Yay! Someone else knows about Arbitrage! That makes...2 people I've ever casually encountered that understands this. The 818 very much is priced for us middle-class folks you can't be afraid to take out a tiny loan and actually complete the car. Keep your cash somewhere that it can work for you and use the banks to pay for the kit. I laugh at folks who save up and put 30k down on a house to save .2% on their mortgage to keep the banks from "getting" them in interest. Just save the cash in a savings or investment fund that returns more than the % difference and "get" the banks at their own game...

[thebeerbaron]

Yay! Someone else knows about Arbitrage! That makes...2 people I've ever casually encountered that understands this.

Yep, it's a fun game if you can find the way to do it. The trouble is that "no-risk" investments like savings are run by a bank that does... you guessed it... arbitrage with your money. Gives you X% on your savings, charges someone else Y% on their loan, takes home the difference. It's rare when you can turn the game in your favor with banks. But if you go to non-insured investments, you can certainly beat the loan interest rate. But then you take the risk of getting hosed if your investments tank.

When it comes time, I'll look into trying to game the system, but since I have no assets (NYC renter, not a homeowner for obvious reasons), securing a loan would be difficult.

[Gollum]

I'm also a fan of getting a loan when it actually makes sense. Don't use a loan to afford things you can't, use it to make your money work with you, not against you.

I personally do plan to put a good amount of money down on my house, but not to get the APR down, but to get the principle down, thus lowering the overall interest immensely. I'm in CA where a "decent" house in most areas I want to live go for well over 200k even in this market. If I wanted a fancy new house with bells and whistles (though probably not much yard) I'd be expecting to have a budget of around 500k for a house. Dropping a loan from 500k to 450k makes a good 1k a month difference in the loan. And that's 1k a month I can now spend getting my money to work for me again, all for putting 50k down. Getting the bank to lower the APR a little because I have that in the down payment is just bonus. I'm also one of the radicals (I guess) that wishes banks would go back to requiring 10+% down on a house to help prevent people from backing out of their loans. People have lost the understanding of "vested interest" today.

But back on topic. If things work out the way I plan, I'll be using a loan for my first 818 purchase and will have it paid off interest free within a year. And that year will give me time to figure out the odds and ends and surprise expenses ("honey, FFR says I HAVE to have a lincoln mig welder for this part"). I'm still going to be waiting until we get a donor part list before even thinking about which route I'll be going for that subject. I'd like to do a donor-free build, but I don't really care too much either way. And if I do buy a donor, it'll be as late as possible to maximize depreciation to allow the newest car possible within a reasonable price.

[LifeIsOnTheWire]

cobb makes a set of heads specifically for the N/A motors

I was under the impression that Cobb got out of the engine building, and engine internals game a while ago.

but there are other options out there.

[StatGSR]

The EJ20tt is an ideal engine for this kind of car. It makes decent power, is dirt cheap, and is easy to find since people are generally lazy and don't want to swap out the unecessary twin turbo setup for a proper single setup. The engine will act just like any other turbo EJ. At 1100 for both the engine AND trans I see no reason to go with an NA setup; at least not because of cost

don't forget about the EJ20H's VOD (valley of death) in the mid range... it can be sorted out, but its the major downfall of that motor in stock form, i also believe its a vacuum line nightmare.

for this car, if i didn't have a full donor car, i would probably go with a junkyard/jdm EZ30D as my first choice or just make a home made turbo ej22e.

[mn_vette]

Yay! Someone else knows about Arbitrage! That makes...2 people I've ever casually encountered that understands this. The 818 very much is priced for us middle-class folks you can't be afraid to take out a tiny loan and actually complete the car. Keep your cash somewhere that it can work for you and use the banks to pay for the kit. I laugh at folks who save up and put 30k down on a house to save .2% on their mortgage to keep the banks from "getting" them in interest. Just save the cash in a savings or investment fund that returns more than the % difference and "get" the banks at their own game...

So where can I find a savings fund that will give me 5-6% right now with low risk?

[readymix]

So where can I find a savings fund that will give me 5-6% right now with low risk?

I see MN in your name. Do you own a home? Financed through Wells Fargo? That's where I got my numbers. I have their PMA Account. The 'savings' account is a money market account. It makes 2.9% interest. They are doing home equity loans at 2.9% (if you qualify). You don't have to "get the banks." Just break even on the deal. The MM savings is ultra low risk. You are basicly guaranteed what amounts to an interest free loan assuming you have the 10K on hand to put in the MM account.

[Someday I Suppose]

Ks, I had actually thought about that as well, and was thinking it might be a fun project to see just how inexpensive you could build the car, document everything, sell off what you don't use on the donor, stick to a N/A motor, and just build a really fun auto X car...

-Scott


if budget is the concern even the N/A 2.5l with 170 hp in a 1800lb car would still be pretty darn fast (add an intake and open the exhaust a bit) with some tuning and other bits the N/A motor can easily make 200 or so HP. cobb makes a set of heads specifically for the N/A motors, lightweight flywheels and pulleys will all fit...

these engines can be had used fairly cheap, generally haven't been beat up (people can get 200k out of the N/A while the turbo version gets rebuilt at 100k if it lasts that long) and get good gas mileage (not sure i would get the ej20tt... i have heard they can be a pain, but it would be an awesome setup in this car)

the 818 is a world car remember, Subaru's sell worldwide where-as there isn't much of a market for hyabusa's in countries that don't have roads...

[16g-95gsx]

don't forget about the EJ20H's VOD (valley of death) in the mid range... it can be sorted out, but its the major downfall of that motor in stock form, i also believe its a vacuum line nightmare.

for this car, if i didn't have a full donor car, i would probably go with a junkyard/jdm EZ30D as my first choice or just make a home made turbo ej22e.

The very nature if how exhaust and intake systems are going to be low restriction and most likely custom pieces would make issues like these less of a concern. Additionally drop the pointless twin turbo setup as mentioned for a proper single and have a cheap turbo EJ setup. I really feel thar anyone building a car like this should be comfortable with solving some of these type of simple OEM downfalls.

[Kay95]

If you want a cheap donor car get a 96-99 outback. The 97-99 WILL have a 2.5 but some of the 96s have 2.2s. Everything is the same between that and the WRX or atleast enough to make work. The 98-03 forester will also be a very close car to work with aswell. The problem with the impreza is they made alot less of them compared to the legacy. IIRC the ratio is 4 to 1 which is why you see so many more late 90s legacys than imprezas. That might have changed with the WRX coming over here but I see alot of legacys still.


You can take a dual port 2.2(95 and older) and put WRX turbo parts on it. Some people are running 14# on a stock 2.2 with ok reliablity.

You can take a 2.2 and put a 2.5 block in it to make a high comp build. I have one in my outback currently and it makes good power. They are cheap to make because you can get a 2.2 for almost nothing just find a 2.5 block for cheap.

You have alot of options.

[Ks2]

hmm it appears i was mistaken and cobb has indeed folded on the N/A crowd, though they still have the accessport, this is news to me

i know CP and maybe a few others make pistons for the 2.5RS