My fantasy COUPE and some questions on options.

[fixedgear]

I have been shopping around for parts for the COUPE while pricing out the project.

It will be a track day car and a weekend car for the streets. It will be a straight forward build, nothing too fancy.

I plan on....

EFI 331 or 347 stroker, 400 - 525 FWHP naturally aspirated (depending on budget and realistic power that can be put down)
Tremec TKO 600 Tranny
3 Link suspension or IRS w 3:31 gears
Wilwood Brake upgrade
18 inch sport wheels (like the style of the BBS wheels on the FFR silver/orange stripes CHAMP CAR promo car) - looks and handling
Red with Dark Silver stripes or something a bit more wild yet classy.... I want a restomod look, modern yet vintage
"Stock interior", nothing fancy, just black, not sure about AC


QUESTIONS

EFI - I want something that is RELIABLE first. I dont' need every little horsepower tuned out. I want EFI for simplicity and for convienence as I live in UT and want to drive through canyons up and down a good bit of elevation.
WHAT EFI SYSTEM WOULD YOU RECOMMEND for value, performance, ease of maintenance?


IRS - Is it worth lots of extra money or is a 3 link good enough for what I want to do with the car?

POWER - Does anyone have too much power where you can't hook up? If so, what level is that?

AIR CONDITIONING- Is there venting to the cabin without AC or is it just the window vents? I want simplicity but I also don't want to have to wring my shirt out after 3 miles. Is AC necessary to enjoy this car on the street?

I am going to be saving up hard for this kit. I can't wait to drive a sweet car again. My WRX dd is cool, but not like this, ha ha. I love the look of the roadster, but the Coupe is calling my name.

Thanks.

[Gordon Levy]

Your most cost effective EFI would be the Mustang aftermarket stuff like a Victor 5.0 intake and related parts. For around $3K you can do a system like Mass-Flo and the rest go up from there.
I think the 3 like of my 5 link would be your better performers for track use. They are lighter with many less parts to potentially fail.
450 seems to be a sweet spot as far as power for many but I have a 750hp roadster race car here that puts the power down quite well.
If you plan on driving the car on the street put AC in it.
If you want give me a call sometime and we can talk over track cars in general and some of the parts and big brake systems we have.

[Hankl]

EFI 331 or 347 stroker, 400 - 525 FWHP naturally aspirated (depending on budget and realistic power that can be put down)

A 331 will provide you with more than enough power, the more is better crowd is just blowing smoke, power cost money any way you look at it. A well built 331 from DSS will dyno at 390-420 HP, good power for the price, and what the West Coast Coupes are using as we speak.

Tremec TKO 600 Tranny

Good choice, you could go with the 600R (Road Race) but the .82 gear on the non RR TKO gives you a great cruising gear in 5th.

3 Link suspension or IRS w 3:31 gears

The 3 link is a good economical choice, no need to get any fancier than that, you'd just be throwing money away if it's not a full Race/Track car. The 3 link is used on the Spec Roadsters, and the new batch of Competition Coupes also.

Wilwood Brake upgrade

The Wilwoods are great, I have them for my Track car, but again, if this isn't a full race car, there are less expensive options that would be within your budget, that would essentially make your AC for the Coupe "Free" because you didn't spend needless money on the brakes. The stock Ford Cobra brakes are what Karen is using on her new Competition Coupe, look for the Blog on her car, I know She would be willing to give you all of the information on where and what part numbers you need.

18 inch sport wheels (like the style of the BBS wheels on the FFR silver/orange stripes CHAMP CAR promo car) - looks and handling

Nothing wrong with 18" wheels, but look at the 17" tire selections, you see that the tires for the larger sizes come with a premium price, and some times, manufactures don't offer the same tires you find in the 17 size, in the 18"s.



Hank :cool:

[RobbieD]

Welcome!

We have Gordons 347 and love it. More power than I should probably have, which is about perfect! Where we are, a carb motor is fairly simple as we are at sea level, however I can understand wanting EFI. We can break the tires loose, but it's really managable...

We have the 3-link and the ride isn't as nice as the IRS, but isn't bad at all.

Unless you are in Alaska (like me) get AC. Even up here, there have been days I wish we'd added it.

Hope that helps!

[Bob Cowan]

EFI:
- There are a number of good options available. When you're talking about EFI, remember that there are essentially two halves to the system - Hardware and Software.
--- The hardware includes the manifolds, injectors, sensors, throttle body, etc. Lots of good choices. I would seriously consider using a Victor Jr manifold and a 1,000 cfm throttle body.
--- The 8 stack systems look the best, by a long shot. BUT, they are more difficult to set up and tune, and the lack of a common plenum limits power production.
- The software and ECU is wide open. I started out with a Haltech. It was simple to install, easy to make changes, and was dead on reliable for 7 years. I'm currently use a Megasquirt, which is much more complicated and has many more features.
- Take a very close look at an ECU that also controls ignition. It's much more accurate, and easy to use a custom curve that works well for you. Radical cams don't work well with vacuum advance distributors. But the ECU can easily provide a vacuum advance feature for street driving.

IRS:
- For street driving, the IRS is definatly better. Ride and control are head and shoulders above a solid axle. For track use, Gordons 5 link is the best I'v seen available. No matter what you do it's going to be a comprimise.

Power:
- Too much is just about right. If you're making 400hp, next year you'll want 450. And 500 the year after that. I'm making well over 600, and would like to have more.
- There's no such thing as too much power, only not enough control. And that's where your chassis set up comes in. People whjo say 500hp is too much for the street either don't have a good chassis set up or they have exceeded their skill level. Spend a LOT of time in setting up your chassis right. And don't be afraid to spend a little more money, too. Not a lot more, but a little more.

A/C:
- Necessary? It depends on your definition of the word "necessary". Imagine driving your daily driving on a day long trip through the hills with no A/C. Was it fun? Or did the heat wear you out? Personally, I would take the weight penalty and install it. Use V belts instead of a serpentine so you can disconnect the belt on the track. You could even use quick disconnect fittings and remove the compressor altogether.

Transmission:
- A TKO is an excellent choice. Good gear ratios, very durable. But it's also bigger and heavier than a T5. I would spend the bux on one of Gordon's T5's.

Brakes:
- The Wilwoods have been one of my best upgrades. Worth every penny. I would have saved a bunch of money by installing them during the initial build.

Wheels/Tires:
- You'll want to use different sets for street and track. Unfortunately, sizes are somewhat limited in both types in the 18" size. Cruise through the selections on Tire Rack and see what's available.
- Fortunately, more and more tire makers are adding 18" selections. So by the time you're ready for that you'll need to research that again.
- For a light weight racing wheel, you'll have a tough time beating Gordon Levy. If I had not found a set of used Steeda light weights, that's what I would have done.

But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[fixedgear]

Thanks guys.

I was looking at the T5s on Gordon's site (should have put that in my 65 Mustang, the TKO was a big pain in the butt and it wasn't the best shifting). The STANDARD superduty one isn't any more expensive than a new TKO. I am not sure of the power level it or the SUPER ALLOY version can hold, will have to ask Gordon.

The rotational weight of a TKO is 34 lbs, T5 16 lbs - T5 is 30 to 40 lbs lighter total as well.
A stout 302 stroker / T5 is a light weight combo vs a 351 and TKO, 80 or 90 lb difference total.... 351W is easy to get 500 hp out of.

EFI controller - I was thinking of an AEM possibly. I will look into the Haltech.
I do want a "carb looking" EFI on top of a Vic JR manifold.
What hardware did you use, Bob?

5 link - that looks pretty sweet, I would have to look at how it works. I assume it is OK for the street, a lot cheaper than IRS for new parts. I could get it welded in.

[riptide motorsport]

All great replies...nothing for me to add!!:)

[Bob Cowan]

Thanks guys.

EFI controller - I was thinking of an AEM possibly. I will look into the Haltech.
I do want a "carb looking" EFI on top of a Vic JR manifold.
What hardware did you use, Bob?



I have an 8 stack system. I know I could make more power by switching to a common plenum. But, it looks so darned cool I won't change it.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a256/bobcowan/Assembledfrontsmall.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a256/bobcowan/AssembledSidesmall.jpg

[fixedgear]

Yeah, those are cool. I couldn't imagine tuning that much less an old school 8 stack of carbs.

[tirod]

The 351 might weigh more, but it can be pushed to 700 hp - the 5.0 only 450, power adders beyond that eventually split the block right thru the cam bearings. Of course, a better "race" aftermarket block will do much more, including add expense. The 351 has the value for the dollar edge, and it'snot too tall with EFI. The Edelbrock Pro Flox XT is already out for the 5.0, and soon to be released for the 351, it's very promising and no taller than the choke horn on a conventional four barrel.

Wheels are very much a tradeoff. Larger rims generally weigh more, adding to unsprung weight, increasing brake wear and performance, and cost more. The tires have to be lower profile, which add stiffer sidewalls and better turning response, but add harshness to the ride. Width usually comes with that, but adding width has a point of diminishing return. Keeping the overall diameter to make the final drive ratio remain effective without speedo correction results in a wheel & tire that generally improves some track results, but leaves street use worse. The extreme is a wheel combo of nearly 25% more weight, a harsh ride, and flat tires from rough roads.

Where this all started was stuffing in the largest diameter rotors possible - clearing them is the first priority. From a short survey I've been doing lately, adding even more diameter has it's drawbacks.

One counter intuitive result is that a lot of "stock" sedans and coupes racing in series just drop down to a 60 or 50 profile on lighter rims of the stock size, and get better performance overall - they don't make the final drive ratio or handling worse. Having been raised in an era of seeing one end of a car and then another jacked up for weight transfer, I'm leaning on the super plus rims as just another typical overreaction by the marketing mavens to sell what the public thinks it wants. And there's good money in it.

[vnmsss]

Bob...That's one beautiful engine!!!

FixedGear.....Really glad you're considering a Coupe....They are amazing cars in every way, and however you build yours, the one thing I know is that you're gonna LOVE driving it (on track and off).

Lots of great advice here already, and I'd be the first one to tell you to build your car to your greatest dream. Reference has been made in this thread to those is us building Coupes to a "spec," and it should also be noted that the group of us that set out on this pathway agreed upon a specific target in terms of HP/WT. We made that consciousdecision based on two criteria: Performance & Cost.

In my case, I have literally thousands of miles in competition with my Coupe (at this point,it's likely the most raced Coupe on the planet), and after spending a whole lot of time, $$ amd effort, I have decided to look for the "sweet spot" between performance and cubic dollars....Lessons from the field: Speed = $$....Period..(No news there).

For those of us racing however, there are other considerations besides the initial build, ook and performance on the way to a car show....We're competing and exposing the cars we built to the most extreme conditions...."Pretty" stuff doesn't always stay so pretty after a 3, 4 or 25 hour enduro, or a few off-track excursions when someone blows and engine in front of you...We also have to consider spares (and the cost of those spares), as well as the availabilty of parts when we're at a race.....In December, when a co-driver managed to put my Coupe on its roof, one of the biggest saving grace for us was the fact that any spares we may not have already had on hand in the trailer could readily be located/sourced quickly....(NAPA, AutoZone, our fellow competitors in the pits, etc.).....Few people thought we could fix the car and comeback after that incident, but strategic planning and wise choices on parts paid off.

Our context is much different from yours, and again, I will be out here cheering on your build, whatever powerplant, driveline, and other options you go with....The 347 referenced in this thread is a great motor, as is the 5-link system, and the rhino-tough T-5 trans...I've run a DSS 331 for two 25-hours races, plus a whole third season in which we secured the Endurance Racing Championship..That car has less than 300 HP on the ground will get you well over 160 mph on the high banks....In fact, I turned 171 mph with that 331 at AutoClub Speedway and have the G2X data to back it up....The question is: How fast do you want to go? Or better yet: How fast do you want to get to that speed, and how much chassis, brake, and other systems work will you want to do to make that baby stick and handle?

The folks on this Forum have been an amazing help in my build, and I know with their advice and guidance, you're going to have an amazing car!! Good luck with your build!!!

Karen




I have an 8 stack system. I know I could make more power by switching to a common plenum. But, it looks so darned cool I won't change it.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a256/bobcowan/Assembledfrontsmall.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a256/bobcowan/AssembledSidesmall.jpg