Who Tunes Their EFI and Who Uses Factory PCM Tune Alone?

[skullandbones]

I am just getting to where I may need or want to custom tune my 5.0 EFI. I haven't driven it yet but it, at least, sounds good so far. There are a lot of EFI people out there but I was wonder just how many super tune with programable tuners or just do simple ignition timing and leave the tune to t he factory PCM. I suppose there are also those who leave the tuning to a professional tuner and have the chip "burned" to specific specs. Which ever route you've taken, how has it worked out for the goals you had initially? Thank you in advance. WEK.:D

[Mike N]

It's a steep learning curve if you want to tune your own especially if you don't have a thorough knowledge of fuel injection and the way the computer processes the various sensor inputs. If you are truly interested it's a lot of reading and studying but I think you will find it fulfilling although sometimes a little frustrating I know that I do. I have been using a TwEECer for about 5 years now and still consider myself a novice. I make small adjustments and understand the effects before moving on. On my car the changes made versus the factory calibration have been worth just over 30 HP peak and almost 80 ftlbs at 2200 rpm at the tires as run on a dynojet. Some of this was getting the fuel tables correct but most was from timing. With a car as light as the FFR the timing can be brought in much earlier without risk of detonation.

[skullandbones]

I remember the TwEECer discussion from another thread and do realize the extensive amount of info to process. As a matter of fact, I spent some time yesterday looking at injector graphs and spray patterns and explanations of how the various sensors gather and interpret data in the Ford EFI systems. But I'm also interested in how the PCM can be used as is. As an example, I found that the MAF sensor when plumbed properly (before and after flow readings) will compensate for larger injectors and produce a air/fuel ratio that will adequately support the modified engine without detonation (very bad for engine). Also, there can be some manipulation of fuel rail pressure to increase the efficiency of your injectors if they are right at the limit of their capacity (this can be calculated). So there are a few things that can be done to improve the way your PCM manages your particular setup but this is limited to normally aspirated engines.

I'm surprised that you got so much more torque than hp. But I don't know your baselines so that may be the explanation. You may consider yourself a "novice" but if I ever go to a blower, I will be consulting you, I'm sure. Thanks, WEK.

[Mike N]

I'm surprised that you got so much more torque than hp.

That's all from timing. I have about 10 degrees more timing at 1800 rpm than the stock A9L but I take 3 degrees back out as I approach the torque peak to stop detonation. The result is over 400 ftlbs to the tires at 2000 rpm. My compression ratio is 8.4:1 you probably couldn't do that with the stock compression in a supercharged set up. I have a J&S knock retard system so it is easier to creep up the optimum timing without risking head gaskets or worse.

As you point out understanding exactly what you've got in your current set up and the areas that may be marginal is extremely useful in keeping a safe and powerful tune in the car. A wide band air fuel ratio meter and a fuel pressure gauge are two key tuning tools that you should consider adding if you don't have them already.

[skullandbones]

Come on! This is not just for the supertuners. I want to hear from EFI people from every level of tuning. WEK

[Wayne Presley]

If you want to do it yourself, you'll need either a twEECer or a Moates Quarterhorse and software. Be prepared for a fairly steep learning curve as you will find that there are a lot of parameters you can play with. Which means there are a lot of parameters you can screw up. There are people willing to share their tunes on the twEECer and moates forums, find one closest to what your combo is to start from. With Binary Editor you can compare the stock tune with the other tunes and reverse engineer what they did.

[Bob Cowan]

I do my own tuning. With the new software, it's a lot easier. The big trick is using a reliable wide band sensor I use the LM-1. The software I'm using makes it pretty easy. Once the engine is warmed up, I take a drive down the road for 10-15 minutes doign a data log. The computer collects all the information that the ECU is using. Then I have the computer analyze the data log, and make appropriate changes to the fuel map. That's the "Self Tuning" part.

Once that's fairly close, then I go in and manually make changes to the various maps to get it the way I want it.

My primary fuel is simply TPS and RPM. I use TPS only there because I have such a big cam shaft that the vacuum signal is not all that good. That's the base fueling, and is fairly static.

Secondary fuel map is RPM and MAP (Manifold Air Pressure). That map adds a little bit of fuel when the pressure drops - which indicates an increased load. Like cruising along in 5th, and then climbing a small. There the rpm stays the same and the MAP rises (vacuum drops). In that condition the mixture would go a bit lean, when you really want it to go a little richer. The secondary map compensates and brings it closer to the target AFR.

The ignition maps are very similar, with a base map and a MAP map.

The fuel and timing maps also have temperature compensating maps. When air intake or manifold temps rise, it pulls out a little timing and adds a little fuel to cool things down.

Fuel has a barometric pressure map, to compensate for altitude changes. It's pretty common for me to have a 5,000' altitude change in one day, 7,000' happens occasionally. With a second MAP sensor, it has constant compensation for these changes.

I also have an external map switch. If I decide to use E85, I just flip the switch under the dash and I get a new map for that fuel.

Yes, all of that is fairly complicated. The ECU collects and uses a lot of data to make a lot of changes every second. But the result is really accurate engine operations all the time. With over 600hp, I still get about 20mpg.

[Wayne Presley]

Bob, he's talking about the factory ECU, your stand alone is much simpler. The factory ECU tuning is much more complicated. For example the EEC-IV has 3 timing tables vs 1 in stand alone, to change injector size you need to change 14 different values vs 1, etc. The new 5.0 Coyote ECU has 16 ignition maps :eek:

[skullandbones]

The EEC-IV systems used on the 1989–1995 OBD-I vehicles were extremely well received by the aftermarket community for their ease of programming and relatively simple control strategy. The mass air based system allowed a large amount of flexibility and ability to adapt at elevated power levels. With a scaled MAF and larger
injectors, it was not uncommon to see unmodified EECs supporting over 600 hp. Although drivability
was not ideal, the engine operation was acceptable to the performance enthusiast who valued
quarter-mile ETs over street manners.

I included this exerpt as an example of what I have been reading about the EEC-IV. If it is as adaptable as reported there should be some wiggle room for me to enjoy the modified project I have without too much concern. I suppose you can always improve the performance of your system but I don't have any of the equipment, yet. I still want to see which is the best route to take with the after market tuning. Since I have a grand total of about 10 to 15 minutes of run time on my engine at this time, I'm really am in the early stages. I haven't even put it on the timing light, yet. I think this goes to show how having the right diagnostic system with enough knowledge to interpret it can be helpful. However, you can't do anything without both. So that was why I was hoping that some people would be interested in talking about the improvements they have seen without any new after market tuning. I like what you have mentioned already about your hp/torque gains. But I kind of expect that from the "tuners". I guess the others just don't find it interesting enough to share. Oh well. Thanks guys, WEK.:confused:

[Mike N]

WEK. Get a wide band O2 and make sure your A/F ratio is safe. You can play with the fuel pressure but the EEC will try to correct what you are doing until you exceed 15% which is its limit for correction. At that point you are down to base timing which is known to give nice gains. Most people run around 14 degrees or so on relatively stock set ups with good gas. You can absolutely improve the stock tune but without digging into the EEC you are very limited on what you can do.

[Bob Cowan]

Bob, he's talking about the factory ECU, your stand alone is much simpler. The factory ECU tuning is much more complicated.

I realize that. But these are basically the same parameters available in he stock computer, and I thought a description of the basic process would be helpful.

My basic street tune has 3 fuel maps, and two ignition timing maps. There are modifiers for MAT, MAP, Altitude, coolant temp, cold enrichement, etc. The ignition has individual selections for things like dwell and spark duration. If the air temp or coolant temp gets too high, it will add fuel and pull out timing to cool it down. It has a wide band O2 sensor that constantly reads the exhaust and can adjust the mixture up to 20%.

This ECU has a lot of features I don't use: traction control, boost control, auto trans control and trans brake, sequential injection, COP, etc. It easily does data logging, and can handle a 2 axis accelerometer.

It's a pretty sophisticated system, and yet fairly easy to tune. Because of the software, it took me a few hours today to get the race prep alcohol tune set up. All road time. If I had access to a road force dyno, it would have been a lot quicker.

[frankeeski]

I am very interested in all of what you have to say about factory tunes and after market tuners. Years ago on my 93 GT I used one of the first generation twEECer's. They have come quite a ways from then to now. While in the final stages of my newest motor build up, I find myself a newbie all over again as the technology has gone on without me for the past few years. I am still going to be using the twEECer this time around but the latest generation has multiple tune capabilities and real time data logging. Something the first generation did not. The thing I learned the first time around is to make small changes, baby steps. You basically have to creep up on a good tune. Make too many changes at once and it's either back to square one or worse (Kaboom!). The biggest thing with large cams and a factory tune is as stated above, the drivability issue. Stalling the car every time you stop at a signal light is no fun and a bit embarrassing.

[skullandbones]

OK. I'm reading like a mad man. However, every time I feel like I have learned something new, a completely different component of what you have been reading about comes up and sets you back, again (start over). The subject of "tuning" is probably as deep as you feel comfortably going. I have some questions though.

Bob: what are you using? Mike: do you mean a wide band controller or just a wide band sensor and gauge for monitoring (I think the latter but wanted to make sure) Also, what do I do with what I have, two existing O2 sensors in side pipes? Wayne if you had your drothers which would you use the Moates or the TwEECer? I have been doing a poll of the literature and it sounds like most like the Quarterhorse better. I don't know if it is the features or the price or both.

I like frankeeski's analogy of "sneaking up on the tune". I think that has been the consensus from everybody-Go Slow!

Here's another question to anybody who wants: what do you think of the PMS from Anderson Motor Works? It looks like I will be comparing these different products for a while before I can come to a solution. But in the meantime I will keep these things in mind. WEK.

[Bob Cowan]

OK. I'm reading like a mad man. However, every time I feel like I have learned something new, a completely different component of what you have been reading about comes up and sets you back, again (start over). The subject of "tuning" is probably as deep as you feel comfortably going. I have some questions though.

Bob: what are you using?

Boy isn't that the truth! Every time I think I have a handle on something, something new comes along. Learning every day is a challenge.

A simple wide band AFR gauge will suffice. You can mount it in the dash or just plug it in temporarily to keep an eye on the mixture. Then you have to take the info that you see on the gauge, and make the appropriate changes to the fuel maps. This is certainly not an ideal way to do it. You really want a controller, that can collect data, and even output data to other applications.

I use the LM-1 from Innovate Motorsports. With my old ECU, I used the LM-1 to collect data on rpm, TPS, and AFR, using it's auxiliary inputs and data logging feature. You use the a laptop to read the data logs. Then you go into your ECU programming and manually make changes. 7-8 years ago, that was the way it was done.

LM-1 also has data output functions. I connect that to my Megasquirt ECU, and it reads all the data in real time. Then the MS can data log and self adjust based on the parameters desired. This (IMO) is the best way to do it. Any aftermarket tuning software should have this ability. If it cannot take data directly from a wide band sensor/controller, I would look elsewhere.

I'm using a Megasquirt computer, with Tuner Studio and MegaLogViewer software packages. It's a complete stand alone custom built system - which is not nearly as expensive as you might think. But it's a lot more involved than something like a Tweecer. I didn't build the ECU, I had a pro do that. But I did build the harnesses and brackets I needed; and I'm doing all the tuning. It's a big project, and not for the feint of heart.

If you want to replace the ECU, but not all the controls and harnesses, DIY Auto Tune has an option for ya. Essentially, it's a MSII/Extra computer, in a differant case with a factory plug. In theory, you build the ECU, unplug the factory ECU, and plug the new one in it's place. Then you have all the features of the MSII/Extra, with easy laptop tuning. Just another mind boggeling option for ya! ;) http://www.diyautotune.com/diypnp/apps/f60/usdm-ford-mustang-8893-5_0-mt.html

[Wayne Presley]

Well the long and short of it is you can go a few ways...
Using stock ECU with mass air meter. Any time you use the stock ECU you'll need to size the MAF to the HP desired. So figure that into your total cost if you need to upgrade.
Use TwEECer and the caledit software with real time tuning and datalogging $450
Moates Quarterhorse and Binary Editor real time tuning and datalogging $350

Electromotive TEC GT with crank trigger, coil packs, software, harness, sensors etc $2450

You can do the DIYPNP kit Bob linked to, assemble the whole set up your self for $400 Including soldering all components to the board, get tuner studio software and mega log viewer.
Or I could set you up a plug and play MS system for $650 and you can dump the MAF.

Add Innovate LC-1 or MTX-L wideband to any of the above systems to datalog via EGR input $200

[Mike N]

Mike: do you mean a wide band controller or just a wide band sensor and gauge for monitoring (I think the latter but wanted to make sure) Also, what do I do with what I have, two existing O2 sensors in side pipes?

Just a wide band sensor. The TwEECer allows for you to datalog the wide band output through the EGR port (Pin 28) on the EEC. Most wide band set ups have a narrow band output which you can use instead of the factory O2 sensor but a lot of people, me included, weld an extra O2 sensor bung into the header and leave the factory sensors alone. If you want to get into the Ford strategy that the EECIV uses search for GUFB.doc or GUFB.pdf and download the document and get reading. I warn you it will make your head hurt but you will start to understand how the different parameters / tables in the EEC are used and interrelated.

[skullandbones]

http://www.cnlperformance.com/MAF_info3.html

I found this article about the merits of using custom tuning vs factory tunes and just when that "tipping point" can cause you problems if you go a little too far (but also how you can use the factory tune safely). At this point, I think I am in a "safe zone" as my project is relatively mild. The crazy thing about that is a mildly modified FFR roadster is the same one that put up the numbers on the performance chart FFR uses to advertise the performance of the MKIV, now. So, I can't complain.

Mike, where did you put your additional bung for the wide band? I have heard of people welding them into a single tube of the 4 tube headers but that just doesn't set right with me. Also, I did reference some of the discussions on GUFB. One was rather interesting about launch protocols - a beta program that "Jason" was asking people to test in the field for their high hp projects. Just listening to that short discussion really shows how intricate the programing is and how tiny changes can make a big difference in the behavior of the engine.

Wayne and Bob, thanks for your interesting commentary as well. Wayne, like I said I am very early in the project so I will have to decide how much I want to get involved or if I want something that is more "plug and play". I'm too dumb at this point to make an intelligent decision.

You know I could keep this up cause I have many other questions that keep popping up. Maybe someone else will chime in, too. Thank you , WEK.

[Wayne Presley]

The MS is easier and more intuitive in programming. You'll just have to dial in the AFR as the timing curve will already be set.

[Erik W. Treves]

WEk,
I don't consider myself an expert from my vast knowledge or anything, but I have run the almost the spectrum when it comes to ECU's..

Starter out bone stock 302... upgrade TB and MAF with fuel injectors (didn't like the driveability or idle so I bought a "MASS AIR CALIBRATOR" $350)... worked for a bit, but wanted more power (had a chip burned for my EEC-IV and dumped the the calibrator).....changed the heads (had to add the calibrator back on)....reburned the chip (dumped the calibrator again).... so I am at about 1500 bucks to this point....... Want more power.... add supercharger (pull the chip and put the calibrator back on)...add FMU for fuel and buy boost retard for spark (another 250 bucks)....

....keeping track right.... 2100 bucks so far.....

ran it that way for about 18 months......BOOM...... FMU freaked out and car went lean and engine exploded.....

New motor (short block) $6000 DSS level 20 short block....Buy Anderson PMS system (I think I paid $900 for it)...then I find out in order to really tune it you need the software +$350 bucks.... ran ok.... but could never get the below 2000 RPM to come in since the PMS starts working at >2000 RPM...got frustrated with the whole mess and finally went stand alone.... REDLINE..... another $1500...car worked awesome got great gas mileage and is still running stong with the new owner on the same tune +4 years later....

did you add all that up yet - motor? so I spent $3350 buck to find out I should have spent $1500 for a REDLINE system...the cost of that education $4850...!!

Wow...I am a moron...lol... never really added that up ...note to self...don't do that again....

Granted through all of that I now know how to make adjustments from the base tune once it is done on the Dyno... Wayne has setup 3 of my cars and he gives me just enough "rope" so I don't hurt my car or myself....So I did finally learn how to make changes so the journey was worth it.

When I built my last car...I went right for the stand alone, no questions asked...done.

I guess what I am saying... do all the research you want, but know that the nature of owning one of these things is that you always want more or want to "tweak it"....so make sure the direction you go will allow you to make changes. Look at the software that comes with each system. GET A WIDEBAND 02 sensor and ensure that your system will "talk" to .

If I had a EEC IV I would probably go with the moates system. We used one on my buddy's car and I like it and the expense is reasonable...The EEC-IV is plenty capable of supporting our cars..... and the customer service is pretty good. They also have a forum as well....

my .02 of course..... I now think 2 upgrades ahead...... ;)