Electric vehicle post again...

[Nelff]

I have been looking surfing and came across this...

http://www.wrightspeed.com/circuit.html

You Tube here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc94QvJc5VA
(and there is a blond that he's talking to if that matters to you)

Keep searching, this guy does good tech/engineering and has been around for awhile. Look for "Wrightspeed's X1 Electric Car".

Evidently this guy has figured out an electric motor/battery/controller package that looks phenomenal. His website says that he doesn't sell to individuals. I'm wondering if he could be persuaded to let F5 sell them in the 818? Everyone here is looking for performance, this has it in spades for a runabout. Just a thought...

Yeah, I know it's battery (limited range, yadda yadda, whatever) but for some, this kind of package would fit the bill for massive performance, little maintenance, ton of fun factor.

[el_jefe]

I likey. 2 drive motors in an 818 = 500hp, and throw in a turbine from an APU for power generation. Paint it black and put a bat on it.

[olpro]

Two laps and you run out of power... Personally I need a little more range.

[Flashburn]

Actually it's two laps and you have to wait for the batteries to cool down. Probably wouldn't be necessary if they actively cooled them.

My other comment is that blonde is really dumb. "really, this is your everyday car?"

[Nelff]

actually, this guy has done a good job with range, cooling and power. If a person wants a run about, fast, cool, fun to play with then go home well here you go.

for those who CONSTANTLY complain about range, you are mixing apples and oranges. All I'm talking about is a car to go blast around in for awhile. If someone wants range with this type of vehicle toss on a gas-diesel-CNG generator and get better MPG than a gas driven car.

and yeah, I would use Wrightspeed Electric as a daily driver...

[speedboy]

Hi guys, this is an animation I've been working on for a while. All this talk about electric drive made me want to post it here also as I value the opinions here. Although it has nothing to do with the 818, it was actually greatly inspired by the 818 as I was modelling it and my entries for the 818 competition at the same time. This design was never meant to be a real car. It's a cyberpunk style character in a Sci-Fi animation series I'm working on and I thought you guys might get a kick out of seeing it. Cheers, Sam




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTXK2ssEHbI

[riptide motorsport]

cool video.

[Exidous]

That was indeed a cool vid. I look forward to electric being a real option for performance and range. Some type of generator would be ideal. Go go naquadah reactor?

[kach22i]

Speedboy, very cool.

Build it!

[Xusia]

Very nice animation!

[Nelff]

I've thought about this kind of layout. Packaging is very compact, easy. Modular design. This is the type of engineering that I appreciate...

[pipe_dream]

That's pretty neat. I can tell alot of work went into the video.
About the WrightSpeed: Great engineering, simple and powerful. I'd want a 15 mile range (mixed, medium throttle driving) on pure electric. This would be enough juice to take the car out for short joy rides and would keep the battery size to a minimum (respectably). I guess the trick is to find a generator that has a reasonable weight and size so you could actually drive the car a fair distance.

[speedboy]

Thanks for the feedback guys!

[bromikl]

Really excited about the possibilities when you go electric. AWD - AWS?? THAT'S CRAZY!!! - and technically easy with an electric drive train. What race driver wouldn't LOVE to be able to instantly and automatically send more power to the wheel with the best traction?? Soon electrics with half the horsepower, constant torque and no transmission will be beating gas cars on the track. Then all the gearheads will have to learn about Kw's, KWh's, programming, controllers and torque vectoring.

My ideal electric setup would be a series hybrid with a diesel motor-generator at constant RPM, floating a relatively small battery (about 3 minutes of flat -out acceleration) powering four separate drive motors.

[Oppenheimer]

My ideal electric setup would be a series hybrid with a diesel motor-generator at constant RPM, floating a relatively small battery (about 3 minutes of flat -out acceleration) powering four separate drive motors.

I'm really excited about where this stuff can go too. My ideal would be similar, but wondering about the stratisfied charge gasoline powered ICE they have now. Seem ideal for generator app. They also have this instant start technology. Which get me wondering about a two stage ICE setup, where you have one such ICE generator that is able to supply just the powere needed to cruise at say, 75 mph, at a slight incline, that is used most of the time (when cruising steady-state), then a larger ICE generator when more power is needed. Wondering about the weight of the two ICE compared to a single ICE plus batteries.

Insane hwy mileage possible, with unlimited range, unlimited high-power operation when desired, no excess weight from batteries, or battery disposal or battery cost to deal with. Plus all the attribute of digital drivetrain you mention, torque vectoring, software controlled traction control and stability control, etc.

[RM1SepEx]

My electric reverse trike gets 45 miles with 15K watt/hr battery pack. (84 volts, 185 amp hr) Using a 16 HP engine/generator can provide the nominal 84 volts at the amperage required to go 55 MPH. I have the generator, have not implemented it to date... The key is how you plan usage of the energy... If you are doing a typical short trip, only use the batteries charged for pennies, overnight. Upon a longer trip the generastor can recharge them at the rate for steady state cruising... as you increase load pack goes down in capacity when you slow, regenerative braking adds to battery charge, as the generator does when load goes below what the generator can provide.

I want to put the generator on a small trailer and only use it when I plan on going farther than the battery pack's capacity, avoiding the extra weight for everyday running around.

The only problem... Such a system doesn't come cheap (it is cheaper than 150 miles of battery power though)

I would guess that a tractor's diesel engine with a generator set would do well in an 818...

[Oppenheimer]

How much does your Trike weigh?

How much does the 15K watt/hr battery pack weigh?

How much does your generator weigh?

Just looking to get some real world reference points.

[RM1SepEx]

The trike weighs 1100 lbs
battery is almost 500 the weight liFePO4's would decrease weight about 100 lbs but battery cost up 10X over lead acid cost
(25 x 3.3 v @ 200AH) vs (7 x 12v @ 185AH)
approx 200 lbs for generator/trailer

[Nelff]

See this is what I've been talking about. It only takes about 16 hp to drive a sedan down the highway. Use a power source to keep just a bit more than constant cruise going to the batteries and he car will stay charged, even driving down the highway (coast to coast). All the design has to do is have sufficient battery storage for several max acceleration stops, starts, thats really all that you need for battery-quantity/energy-storage. Now instead of feeding a 300hp engine gasoline, you are in effect feeding a 20hp engine thats will operate at a constant efficient rate AND the torque available from the electric motors for acceleration has a much better torque curve.

Just sayin...

[Nelff]

BTW, RM1SepEx is totally on the money about quick run around town, leave the generator at home. Want to take a longer trip, toss it in the "trunk" (for loss of a better word) and the range is now as long as the gas tank + batteries will take it. Smaller amount of batteries, less weight...

I figured that I would make a 'spot' for a generator, securely fastened, that I could just plug in and go, even if I had to put in an extra 5 gallon tank too...

[Nelff]

Bromikl, if we could use hub motors (probably not in the 818) then all of the weight and complexity of transmissions and drive shafts goes away also. A computer could sense wheel spin, and help with the stability of power delivery in cornering. (think about some of the other benefits)

If someone with the know how and resources could pull this off it could be a game changer...

[el_jefe]

Hub motors also massively increase unsprung weight, which is bad juju

[kach22i]

Hub motors also massively increase unsprung weight, which is bad juju
Yes, true for high power motors.

However if the motors are only 25 hp each they don't weigh much.

The downside is that this ain't no sports car anymore, it's an ecco commuter with non-turbo diesel VW Golf like acceleration.

[bromikl]

Placing a hub motor in the wheel sounds like a good idea. But so is reducing un-sprung weight. There are tradeoffs for each possibility. To use hub motors, you'd have to invent new technology - i.e. wheels made out of a motor.

The alternative would be short axles coupled directly to the motors, which I believe would increase the longevity of your motors.

[Nelff]

Acceleration shouldn't be a problem with hub motors, it's been done before with great success...

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/electric-mini-0-60-in-4-seconds-it-has-motors-in-its-wheels.html

8506

[Xusia]

I'm really excited about where this stuff can go too. My ideal would be similar, but wondering about the stratisfied charge gasoline powered ICE they have now. Seem ideal for generator app. They also have this instant start technology. Which get me wondering about a two stage ICE setup, where you have one such ICE generator that is able to supply just the powere needed to cruise at say, 75 mph, at a slight incline, that is used most of the time (when cruising steady-state), then a larger ICE generator when more power is needed. Wondering about the weight of the two ICE compared to a single ICE plus batteries.

Insane hwy mileage possible, with unlimited range, unlimited high-power operation when desired, no excess weight from batteries, or battery disposal or battery cost to deal with. Plus all the attribute of digital drivetrain you mention, torque vectoring, software controlled traction control and stability control, etc.

Add me to the very excited crowd as well. On-board power generation is something I've long felt is the best transition strategy from pure gasoline (because of existing infrastructure) to whatever comes next (recharge stations, hydrogen, ??).

In regards to the above idea, specifically, I don't think 2 generators would be a good idea. I think a better idea would be a generator that is capable of producing more energy than is needed to cruise (balance between additional capacity and weight), but doesn't run all the time. The battery pack is used to provide energy capacity when needed, such as for acceleration, hills, etc. Additionally, I think a diesel-based engine would make a better generator because of the low RPM and high torque, and because diesels can be made to run on a variety of more eco friendly fuels.

Just my 2 cents... :)

[Oppenheimer]

Agree on the multiple fuels. Microturbine generator makes this even more possible, but increases costs. Also agree on the transition that leverages existing infrastructure, yet allows development of rest of electric drivetrain (that will occur while the next generation power source eventually emerges) to be relevant to future.

All that torque vectoring and traction control software, launch control, etc, unsprung weight solutions, reliability, etc, that will occur organically with onboard dino-based electric power generation based cars would allow next gen electric power source to just drop in and power the future.

But since that existing infrastructure has gasoline more available, than diesel, that is only reason I suggested gas.

My suggestion of multiple, staged generators, was attempt to replace heavy batts with ICE. It would only make sense if second (larger) ICE is much less weight than batts (plus gives unlimited 'accel' range compared to using batts for that purpose). Batts for accel if building a Prius equivalent makes more sense. But if all-out sport is the goal, then I think second on-board generator could make sense.

The diff between batt weight on your trike and the ICE you want to haul around is half (500 lb batts (or 400 lb if not lead-acid) - 200 lb ICE generator (with trailer) = 200 lb diff - even larger diff if weight of trailer not part of equation).

[RM1SepEx]

I went the trailer route to make it easy to go for distance, hook up ball, one high amperage anderson connector and you would be all set. A more advanced system could start and stop the generator as needed. That is how a real production hybrid should be setup. Jump in punch up where you are going (voice actuated of course) the car checks route etc... and decides how to best use the power available.

The other alternative would be to use the John Q Riley approach look up the XR3 online, electric drive in the rear, diesel FWD hybrid reverse trike

[bromikl]

I heard the hybrid GTM developed by West Philly High uses a through-the-road hybrid. Benefit: no heavy generator which doesn't also double as a motor for propulsion. Drawback: the added weight of a transmission. I also suspect this would significantly affect handling - imagine your rear wheels accelerating and your front wheels braking. Might cause issues on a curve - especially if it's raining.

The Chevy Volt gets around this issue (of having additional weight) by having two rotors - the "stator" rotates with the engine crankshaft, and the "rotor" drives the wheels.

http://www.evxteam.org/vehicles/item/148-evx-gt

[kach22i]

I did this quick location study drawing just to get some thoughts out which have been brought up by this discussion.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design%20-%20Transportation/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design%20-%20Transportation/Electric-Motor-Location-Study-032912.jpg

There might be a much better illustrations floating around on the Internet somewhere for each of these layouts. I did my sketch for myself, and to organize my thoughts on the subject.

In particular, the concept involving the hub motor in which the motor is mounted fixed to the wheel, and the wheel is attached to another mounting/plate which does not rotate or spin was something I was trying to get my head around. How hard can that one be? Cut a hole in a wheel, slip the motor through it, use L-clips and bolts to hold it in place, then weld fixed the existing wheel bearing and existing mounting plate, right?

Now with the motor spinning around by it's self, how do the power cables/wires stay on without being twisted in circles? There must be a circular ring which is charged, and another matching ring picking up the charge that rotates with the wheel/motor, right?

I better stock up on dielectric grease if I'm going to try this.:cool:

[Oppenheimer]

If you imagine a modern independent suspension, with a bearing hub, one side of hub spins with wheel, other side is connected to suspension, now imagine you replace this hub with a motor. The side with the wires and stuff doesn't spin, only the 'shaft' side of motor does.

[Xusia]

In other words, the wheel spins AROUND the motor (which doesn't move).

[olpro]

In electric powered model planes, the OUTRUNNER motors have seen great popularity because of their higher torque characteristics, which eliminates the need for gearing. The housing spins around the windings rather than the other way around. They are often more disc shaped than cylindrical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outrunner
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/axi_gold_5325_20_outrunner_motor_522475_prd1.htm?p SearchQueryId=3543536

[kach22i]

I did a Google image search, looks like the wires typically run in the hollow drive shaft.
http://successmotor.en.made-in-china.com/offer/OMUnNYkKZfRv/Sell-Electric-Car-DC-Hub-Motor.html
8520


Here is a golf cart application for hub motors.
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/2580-hub-motor-side-load
8517
8518

Here is a conversion:
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/5613-process-midification-gas-car-electric-car
8519

At last,Put the motor to the brake and add the suitable wheel and tire.


What I drew up was more like this wheelchair one (missing any suspension, but simple):
http://www.coolmobility.com.au/WheelchairP3Video.htm

Sample photos:
http://www.coolmobility.com.au/Photos/P3/hub%20motor1.jpg
http://www.coolmobility.com.au/Photos/P3/rear%20unit1.jpg

[Flashburn]

Evtv.me

[kach22i]

I watched some of the electric Speedster video, will have to finish it later when I have more time. Thanks for the link, it's a good one.

[kach22i]

Tajima Goes Electric For 2012 Pikes Peak Climb
http://www.motorward.com/
8528


I've read before that electric's are popular at Pikes Peak because they don't lose power at higher altitudes as their gas brethren do as they climb the mountain.

[Nelff]

See, there really are multiple engineering pathways for electrics. Right now I am toying with the idea of using the 818 pretty much as it's provided by F5. The motor would just be placed where the gas engine would have been. With batteries against the firewall it would leave plenty of space for controllers and a small generator (for long distances) I just found another link for a company that happens to be about 150 miles away from me. They have converted a full size pickup and looks like they did a real nice job...

http://www.topekaelectricmotor.com/electric-vehicles/ac-project

[RM1SepEx]

That motor is far too heavy check these guys out

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/ac-50.html

[Xusia]

The website for Protean Electric - the company that did the 640hp electric Mini Cooper - says their customers are OEMs and large fleet conversions. Sad. So I called them and asked if that's still the case, or if there are any plans to market something for converting existing vehicles or home built vehicles. To my surprise, the person I spoke to said there should be an announcement of interest in the next 4 to 6 months! They wouldn't say more than that. From a timing perspective, that's pretty close to the launch of the 818. If the announcement is something that could work for the 818, building one with an electric drive train could be a real option both for economy AND performance. Woo hoo!! :D

[Oppenheimer]

The website for Protean Electric - the company that did the 640hp electric Mini Cooper - says their customers are OEMs and large fleet conversions. Sad. So I called them and asked if that's still the case, or if there are any plans to market something for converting existing vehicles or home built vehicles. To my surprise, the person I spoke to said there should be an announcement of interest in the next 4 to 6 months! They wouldn't say more than that. From a timing perspective, that's pretty close to the launch of the 818. If the announcement is something that could work for the 818, building one with an electric drive train could be a real option both for economy AND performance. Woo hoo!! :D

Maybe its not a coincidence that the two timelines align. Perhaps you stumbled upon a thus-far hidden link between the two organizations. Maybe Dave has electric plans we know nothing about.

[Canadian818]

Is there any way to use a ICE that propels the car to also recharge batteries? EJ for the rear wheels, electric power up front.

[bromikl]

Here ya go.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/11/west-philly-teens-build-g_n_1004723.html

http://www.evxteam.org/vehicles/item/148-evx-gt

[Nelff]

exactly...

[bromikl]

I've been looking (unsuccessfully) for a microturbine generator. Any ideas where someone could buy one?

[BipDBo]

I've been looking (unsuccessfully) for a microturbine generator. Any ideas where someone could buy one?

I don't think that's something you can just pick up at PepBoys.

The best bet is to make your own. At best you could buy a turbine and mate a generator to it. People buy jet engines on ebay. I've saw one a while that would be just about perfect. It was a small turbine that's used as a strater motor for a commercial jet turbofan engine. It already had the gearing.

Another option would be to make the whole thing. There are several different plans for making a jet engine out of a turbo charger. The trick would be to replace the drive shft with one that could be attached to a gearbox and installing new larger bearings that can take the added stress of the gearbox while standing up to the heat. This would be a lot of work, though, for a very inefficient generator.

You're probably much better off with an ICE generator. I'd take the drivetrain out of a wrecked Prius and throw it into the back of an 818, swap the Prius NiMH battery for a larger capacity Li-ion battery, and put a motor on the front wheels. That would make one bad *** Volt.

[Nelff]

That's the main problem, no-one really makes a good micro-turbine. There is a company that does make one for home use, I'll find the link in a bit. A generator for an automotive application is going to have to (for lack of a better word) generated. Jaguar is backing away front the micro turbine in it's new super car. Let me look for a bit...

[StatGSR]

Is there any way to use a ICE that propels the car to also recharge batteries? EJ for the rear wheels, electric power up front.

just install a massive alternator on your EJ! :cool:

[Roger Reid]

I've been looking (unsuccessfully) for a microturbine generator. Any ideas where someone could buy one?

I believe the manufacturer is Capstone. Here is a link from the other forum. http://www.ffcars.com/forums/42-factory-five-gtm-forum/86369-electric-gtm-when.html

Here is Capstones web site. http://www.microturbine.com/

[RM1SepEx]

So what is the status of the GTM with serial hybrid setup? last post in the other forum was in 08 by:

widoworx
Junior Charter Member


Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Northern California
Posts: 18

[bromikl]

I saw the Capstone website. They are selling standby home (and business) electrical power generators - much, much larger than what a vehicle would need. I did see a compact microturbine on ebay. Surplus military equipment; compact rectangular package, splined output shaft. Too much power and weight for a sports car. But an interesting science project, anyway.

Realistically, ICE seems the only way to go.

[JBrown88]

The website for Protean Electric - the company that did the 640hp electric Mini Cooper - says their customers are OEMs and large fleet conversions. Sad. So I called them and asked if that's still the case, or if there are any plans to market something for converting existing vehicles or home built vehicles. To my surprise, the person I spoke to said there should be an announcement of interest in the next 4 to 6 months! They wouldn't say more than that. From a timing perspective, that's pretty close to the launch of the 818. If the announcement is something that could work for the 818, building one with an electric drive train could be a real option both for economy AND performance. Woo hoo!! :D

Here are some things I dug up, because I'm a fan of cool tech projects (i.e. high performance EV's)

Protean actually teamed up with Brabus and had both a hybrid and full electric at the 2011 Frankfurt Auto Show. Here are a couple of videos about it.

For an overview of specs and views of the vehicles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFz_xqOBlJg

For an animation of the power supply and motors:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbyAMuDWkoM&feature=related

For some reading on unsprung mass with hub motors:
http://www.proteanelectric.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/protean-Services3.pdf

Now, I know that white paper is from Protean electric, so take it with a grain of salt. Otherwise, the Brabus EV looks really cool. With a combined 320 kW of power (~430 hp, or ~100 hp per wheel) and 2350 ft-lbs of torque, the car can certain put some power on the ground. I think the Protean Motors (if they actually start selling to individuals) could be a great option for people either wanting to keep the AWD aspect from the WRX, or for people wanting to make a high-mileage 818 (electric for daily driving, boxer engine for having fun and extended range). Really cool, but probably outside of the 15-20k window originally envisioned.

For more information:
Brabus Zero Emission- http://www.brabus.com/raster.php?page=15&sub=7
Protean Electric- http://www.proteanelectric.com/

[Gearsmith]

And this one from BMW:

http://www.bmw-i-usa.com/en_us/bmw-i8/#bmw-i8-concept-spyder-unleash-electricity-with-bmw-edrive