Cable Clutch Coyote / Long Pedal ????

[M22_COBRA]

I have the Gen 3 Coyote, Ford cable M-7553-E302, no firewall adjuster, ram clutch (forte package), forte clutch extender so it doesn't hit the oil pan...and I have made a modified adapter on the fork end that does make the clutch arm slightly longer but stays above the rail as Mikes got the arm way too low. But its in line and I don't "think" it creates this issue as it clocks the cable around the same radius.

I was checking clutch engagement last night. Put it in 1st gear rolled the LR tire over and pushed in the clutch to see where the clutch engaged. With minimal tension on the cable the lower adjustment was about half of the threaded rod, and it did not disengage until the pedal was at the floor/ firewall.

Next try I tightened the nut on the rod, little by little until I got the clutch to release at about half pedal stroke. BUT the threaded rod at that point was almost out of adjustment and it is putting a good amount of tension on the cable. The TO bearing is certainly touching at this point although I don't see the fingers flexing much in the disengaged state. This cant be right, I feel like its got way too much tension on the cable and TO bearing but without it the wheel wont release until the pedal is at the firewall?

I think the ford cable M-7553-C302 is about 5" shorter... not sure that helps as it would still be loaded up.
Would a firewall adjuster help in this situation? Looking for some ideas.


This is the position minimal tension / full pedal travel
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This is the position with large tension and almost no thread left
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[michael everson]

I would take the extender off. Never an issue on any of them I built using a cable clutch. The firewall adjuster will help with adjustment but doesn't change where the clutch releases. I fell that its ok for the bearing to be touching the fingers all the time. On the old Mustang pedal boxes there was a spring that put tension on the cable all the time.
Mike

[David Hodgkins]

re: pics, make sure the total pixel count is below 2000 x 2000 and that the pics are under 2mb each. jpg or jpeg files are the best format for the site.

:)

EDIT: the 2000 x 2000 restriction no longer exists, just the 2mb size...

[M22_COBRA]

Its almost like the quadrant is not using enough / not taking up enough cable as the pedal is pushed. Which is absurd and cant be as this FFR quadrant has been used a lot.

The "extender" is a variable but it is only makes the arm about 1/4" longer from cable to TOB axis, and clocks it maybe 7-10 degrees or 5/8" clockwise. It makes the cable pull straight out of the sleeve vs wearing out the bushing. Just the stock arm and the bushing mount at the bell housing do not line up without an extender. The cable without either crashes into the oil pan on the Coyote which is why Forte sells his mounts. So you need them to avoid the oil pan.

Did you use the C302 or the E302?

Still working on pics....

[M22_COBRA]

Photos are up

[M22_COBRA]

I would take the extender off. Never an issue on any of them I built using a cable clutch. The firewall adjuster will help with adjustment but doesn't change where the clutch releases. I fell that its ok for the bearing to be touching the fingers all the time. On the old Mustang pedal boxes there was a spring that put tension on the cable all the time.
Mike

Did you do a Coyote? Or were these all pushrod motors?

[rich grsc]

Without a firewall adjuster, not going to work

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Mine is a straight up Coyote/TKO-600, Centerforce, FFR, Ford cable assembly & firewall/clutch fork adjusters. No issues with setting it up.

[Al_C]

You reference two different cable part numbers. I can't tell you which one I have, but mine is the one that came with the kit. Granted, this was a while ago, but I don't think these things change that much. Mike Forte assembled my clutch and bell housing, and the stock (i.e. kit) cable works fine. I have room for adjustment, still, if I need it. My suggestion is if it's not engaged properly when the clutch pedal is "up" and it isn't disengaged when the pedal is "down", you have the wrong part. The whole point of a cable clutch (over a hydraulic clutch) is simplicity. I'd take another look at what you have and see if this isn't just a matter of adjustment. It could be as simple as how you have the cable housing up against the bell housing. Or how the fork is oriented. The more I think about it, the more I think this is a case of adjustment.

[M22_COBRA]

You reference two different cable part numbers. I can't tell you which one I have, but mine is the one that came with the kit. ...The more I think about it, the more I think this is a case of adjustment.

I have the FORD E302 which is longer then the C302 by about 5". Both other have been listed on this forum.

Been thinking this over, still trying to wrap my head around it. If I had a shorter cable and the fire wall adjuster, and got the adjustment to be mid thread on the cable rod... That still doesn't explain why it requires that much cable to be pulled to disengage the clutch. Which in turn requires a lot of preload on the arm to be able to get to that disengagement point by mid pedal to 3/4 pedal

It sounds like folks have their cable almost free at rest and the arm barely tensioned by the cable and they get disengagement by mid pedal. Am I wrong in thinking this? How much arm travel are some if you getting from rest to full pedal?

It's there a measurement of the arm I can reference? Once the TO bearing makes contact with the clutch diaphragm springs it's hard to tell how much it's pressing in, or if it moves at all as I take up the slack in the cable. I don't mind it touching but don't want to wear something out.

Sorry for all the questions, just not making sense. I have the shorter cable and the firewall adjuster coming and I'll see if that changes things.

[michael everson]

Remove the extender. The pan is relieved just for this setup. Get a firewall adjuster. Also your pedal stop is way to high eating up a bunch of your travel.
Mike

[M22_COBRA]

Remove the extender. The pan is relieved just for this setup. Get a firewall adjuster. Also your pedal stop is way to high eating up a bunch of your travel.
Mike

That makes sense Michael on the stop. Right now the clutch pedal is slightly higher than the brake, if I drop the stop bolt half what it is the split will get bigger. The brake is just about to hit the chassis so it cant go any further on brake. Is this typical to have a large pedal split because of the chassis bar? But this may use more of the "lobe" in the quadrant and make pedal rate go up which I need.


Thinking thru this.
If I lower the stop the pedal goes out and it feeds cable in the direction of the clutch making the cable longer, which is what I don't need.
But if the cable was shorter and I let the pedal out it theoretically leaves the cable at the clutch unmoved and I lose length at the quadrant. If I add the adjuster at the firewall with the shorter cable I have the ability to take length from the clutch and fine tune bias it to the quadrant. It just leaves me with a tall pedal.

Does the adjuster start fully against the firewall and get unthreaded or the other way around? I saw Forte's video here recently but I wasn't clear on start position as the vid was on adjustment.

[DW66]

I'm with Mike on this one. Remove the extender. My set up is a little different as I have the Foxbody pedal box with a 3650 transmission. I got my clutch from Forte with his extender and I wasn't a fan. You lose more throw than you might think when using it. Yes the cable bends a little bit going around the pan but not enough to bother anything. The firewall adjuster is nice to have if you don't have a lift and need to adjust your clutch often for some reason but not necessary if the cable is adjustable at the transmission end which yours is.

Dave

[CraigS]

A few thoughts; 1- I like the clutch higher than the brake. IE a 'tall pedal'. Say the brake pedal has 2" of travel relaxed to full stop. But the clutch needs 4-5" of travel. I don't like to have to push the clutch 2-3" further than the brake. I always set my pedals up so the clutch is about 1-1.5" higher than the brake pedal. 2- The height of the pivot piece that the other end of the throw out lever sits on affects the lever travel. There have been builders who needed to adjust it. Think this way. If the T/O bearing is resting on the PP, and you increased the height of the pivot, that would move the cable end of the lever back. That would use up some of the cable's length. 3- The extender on the T/O lever increases it's length. That reduces the needed effort but also increases the required amount of pedal travel. Do you really need it? 4- A different overall cable length may not make any difference. Typically all that does is give more length of the black sleave to make routing it easier. The only difference that would matter would be if the two cables had a different amount of cable sticking out beyond the sleave. 5- I like the firewall adjuster. If nothing else it lets you make an adjustment w/o jacking it up and sliding under the car. 6- The OE Mustang was set up so the T/O bearing was in light contact w/ the PP. There was an automatic ratcheting mechanism to keep that adjustment as the clutch wore or the cable stretched over the years.

[M22_COBRA]

If the T/O bearing is resting on the PP, and you increased the height of the pivot, that would move the cable end of the lever back. That would use up some of the cable's length. 3- The extender on the T/O lever increases it's length. That reduces the needed effort but also increases the required amount of pedal travel.


Great point. Effort down / required travel up.

[M22_COBRA]

I do question if the cable can even make that bend around the pan or even get installed to the hole on the bell housing
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[michael everson]

It will, I do it all the time. Get a firewall adjuster and collapse it all the way in. Adjust the cable at the threaded end all the way in. Then take up slack with the adjuster. I pull the cable out of the adjuster then adjust it out to take up the slack.
Mike

[rich grsc]

I do question if the cable can even make that bend around the pan or even get installed to the hole on the bell housing
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It's the easiest thing in the world to "try it" and see.

[M22_COBRA]

It's the easiest thing in the world to "try it" and see.

Absolutely, when 5pm hits and work ends I'll be under the car. DOING IT.

[M22_COBRA]

Removed the extension and ran it in the stock location. Got my steeda fire wall adjuster installed ran it all the way in and set it per the to Forte video. Cable is installed and installed with the full length of the threaded rod used up. I also dropped the pedal stop so it's about 7/16" tall. The pedal is pretty high at rest and there is a light touch condition in the TO bearing.
To be honest it may be marginally better vs the extender but it's hard to tell. I really was expecting more. The clutch engages about 1.25" from full pedal travel which is about 75% of the full travel.
Just scratching my head how to make it better without increasing the load on the bearing.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DWVG3h9gNB-/?igsh=MWd4bGw5bnhsejAwZw==

[michael everson]

You cannot control where it releases without changing the diameter of the quadrant. It takes a certain amount of travel to release the pressure plate. where are you expecting it to release?
Mike

[M22_COBRA]

About mid travel as an optimum preference. Not an inch before full stroke.. Is that unrealistic with this car / setup?


Last option have is to install the C302 shorter ford cable and try that. I'm not expecting much different as it shouldn't matter because when A at the quad moves B at the fork moves that same amount and you cant preload the TO. Only thing I can think of that it would improve is maybe cable compliance over the total length would be better.
Fingers crossed, I'll try it tonight.

[CraigS]

I just read back through your initial post and have a Q. I 'think' you are testing clutch disengagement by turning the road wheel by hand?
"Put it in 1st gear rolled the LR tire over and pushed in the clutch to see where the clutch engaged."
I don't think that is a valid test. I'd rather test it w/ a running engine and the tires on the ground. Especially w/ a brand new disc, what you may be feeling is a little bit of drag disc to PP that is enough that you can't turn the road wheel by hand, but would not be enough make the car move from being stopped.

[M22_COBRA]

I just read back through your initial post and have a Q. I 'think' you are testing clutch disengagement by turning the road wheel by hand?
"Put it in 1st gear rolled the LR tire over and pushed in the clutch to see where the clutch engaged."



CraigS yes 100% that's exactly what I'm doing. I am hoping you are right. I'll try the shorter C302 ford cable, evaluate it against the E302 (longer), and share my experiences here for the group knowledge. I'll likely go back to the extension for another back to back for "feel".
After that I will back away from the ledge and revisit this once I get past first start

[michael everson]

Shorter cable will make no difference. Its a matter of travel at the pedal and how far it pulls the fork.
Mike

[M22_COBRA]

Post weekend results and what I found swapping cables, extensions, noting effort, travel, and wheel release point. FWIW.

Got the clutch pedal standing about 2.0" above the brake, and the brake is as far up as it can be without hitting the 3/4"x3/4" structure. So I have a good amount of pedal stroke for every arrangement.
As discussed before, pushing the pedal and feeling where the clutch allows it to spin free may not be the best for determining the actual release point but its a constant for this test and they all are measured against the same metric.

Takeaways:
1. M-7553-E302 longer ford cable, mounted right on the bell housing, no extension on the fork, firewall bearing 8 clicks off zero to take up the slack. -> It required the most effort, pedal travel / wheel spin is lust short of 1-7/8" off the firewall.

2. M-7553-C302 shorter ford cable, mounted right on the bell housing, no extension on the fork, firewall bearing 4 clicks off zero to take up the slack. -> NO change - didn't expect it to but tried anyway. May work better for a build that needs a shorter route. The longer cable IMO routes it away from the header better on the Mk4 with a coyote.

3. M-7553-E302 longer ford cable, Forte bell housing standoff, custom fork extension, firewall bearing 10 clicks off zero to take up the slack. -> It required the least effort, pedal travel / wheel spin 1-9/16"+ off the firewall. I think I will stay with this for now and re evaluate once I have the car rolling / rule out friction drag from just spinning the tire.
227523

[edwardb]

Read through the posts. Your test results are what I would have expected. Length of the cable doesn't matter, quality of the cable can matter (e.g. genuine Ford over lessor quality aftermarket), the fork extension is going to provide less effort at the expense of more pedal travel. It's geometry. I've found the static test you're doing to be reasonably accurate. At least as a sanity check for the setup. All of this makes me happy I've gone hydraulic on my builds. :p

[rich grsc]

Kinda what everyone said, right. :rolleyes: