Body Primer/Paint/OrangePeel Question

[Mark Eaton]

This is what my 818 looks like after third coat of 2K catalyzed Urethane Primer Surfacer. Does this look ok? My next step with be to block sand with 180 then 320 grit dry and 600 grit wet before Primer Sealer application

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=220303&d=1760664954

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=220304&d=1760664954

[Ajzride]

That looks very textured, I would not have expected it to come out like that. It looks like your air pressure was too low, or the nozzle was too big. It will all sand out, but you'll have a pretty thin coat left.

[Mark Eaton]

Yeah, I thought it looked pretty textured! So maybe dry sand and then put on more coats? I only used about a 1/3 of a gallon. I have plenty left.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Serious dry spray due to incorrect application. You’ll be able to cut it down with the 180 but be careful not to go through. I don’t know what products you’re using but for reference I use PPG Shopline JP202 mixed 4:1:1 shot through a 1.4 @ 31psi. It lays down slick and only needs just a scuff with 320 before going to 600 wet.

Jeff

[Lugnut Mark]

Hey bud …. You have some serious dry spray … may need to adjust fluid on your gun …..I normally spray with my fluid and fan wide open … watch some videos on you tube on how to adjust your spray gun … 31 lbs sounds a bit high in pressure for primer ..I normally run about 25-28lbs depending on the viscosity … good luck

[Mark Eaton]

Serious dry spray due to incorrect application. You’ll be able to cut it down with the 180 but be careful not to go through. I don’t know what products you’re using but for reference I use PPG Shopline JP202 mixed 4:1:1 shot through a 1.4 @ 31psi. It lays down slick and only needs just a scuff with 320 before going to 600 wet.

Jeff

I couldn't find a source for the PPG Shopline JP202 on line. I used DTM HB 624 High Build Urethane Primer Surfacer from TCP global mixed 4:1 as per the spec sheet. Shot with 1.3 @ 20 psi. their spec sheet said to use 7-10 psi but that was really bad. I'll try shooting at higher psi after I sand it a bit.

[Mark Eaton]

Hey bud …. You have some serious dry spray … may need to adjust fluid on your gun …..I normally spray with my fluid and fan wide open … watch some videos on you tube on how to adjust your spray gun … 31 lbs sounds a bit high in pressure for primer ..I normally run about 25-28lbs depending on the viscosity … good luck

Yeah, I watched a bunch of videos. I guess I'll watch some more. :eek:

[Jeff Kleiner]

I couldn't find a source for the PPG Shopline JP202 on line. I used DTM HB 624 High Build Urethane Primer Surfacer from TCP global mixed 4:1 as per the spec sheet. Shot with 1.3 @ 20 psi. their spec sheet said to use 7-10 psi but that was really bad. I'll try shooting at higher psi after I sand it a bit.

Shopline is only sold by PPG's "Platinum distributors" (a designation that they earn based on sales volume) but is exactly the same product as PPG MP282, just a different label. Don't know if you could get that online either or if you actually have to purchase at one of their stores.

I don't use TPC Global products but the "DTM" in it's description indicates that it is designed to be applied Direct To Metal although it can be used on other surfaces. A little surprised that there is no reducer used, only product and catalyst however the tech sheet states that it can be reduced if you intend to use it as a sealer. The high viscosity when it is unreduced is probably why the Tech Sheet specifies using a 1.6-1.8mm tip. When you were shooting it through a 1.3 at low pressure you were just kind of blowing overspray at it and not laying down liquid. Use a larger tip, maybe try reducing it and do some experimenting and test sprays using a cardboard, trash can (brother Miller's favorite ;)) or whatever. You want it to flow out wet and lay down with no texture, very much like when spraying base.

Good luck!

Jeff

[Bicyclops]

That 7-10 psi would be measured at the air cap. It's a spec that came out of reducing emissions of VOCs using HVLP guns. It takes higher inlet pressure to get there. One would have to have the proper setup to measure it at the air cap and most just set inlet pressure to whatever makes the paint lay down well as long as an inspector isn't in the building. When looking at inlet pressure, the trigger would be pulled enough to get the maximum airflow but not pulled far enough to get fluid flow or just do the pressure setup with no paint in the gun. Most of the pros that I have seen never let up on the trigger all the way - they keep the air flowing with no fluid flow while setting up for the next pass to avoid pressure surges. I agree with everybody who is saying that you need more pressure at the gun. And more fluid. I adjust my gun to where I can just feel the needle with the trigger pulled fully. Fan should be pretty much as large as the gun can do and still make a good looking oval. You can do that with solvent before you load the paint.

I'd probably block sand what you've got and then lay down another coat, hopefully smoother this time, and then sand. Ain't painting fun?

Ed

[Mark Eaton]

Thanks for all the input, I'm not discouraged. I'll forge ahead

[egchewy79]

Thanks for the explanation. I’m about to lay down some primer on another project and the TDS says 8psi at the cap. I thought that sounded awfully low.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Thanks for the explanation. I’m about to lay down some primer on another project and the TDS says 8psi at the cap. I thought that sounded awfully low.

As Bicyclops said pressure at the air cap is drastically different from triggered inlet pressure and is not something that we ordinarily measure. For the 2K primers I suggest testing at 25ish and adjust from there to get your best results. With the gun I use and my setup I like 30-31 but different guns won't necessarily need the same.

Jeff

[Mark Eaton]

My primer/painting situation is improved. I got a better gun, DeVilbiss, switched out all connections in my pneumatic system for 3/8" ID, bought a reducer for the primer. I blocked that primer to 320, then sprayed new coats of primer surfacer with 1.8mm nozzle and 28 PSI and blocked to 320 dry and 600 wet. I masked accented areas and sprayed my primer sealer (Finish1 FS512 from my local Napa store) again 28 PSI with 1.5 mm nozzle.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=221720&d=1763443051

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https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=221719&d=1763441895

I'm happy with the results so far and I'm still enjoying the process. I also much appreciate input from experienced painters. i'm hoping to mask again Friday night and spray Primer Sealer to the rest of the body and then spray the major color Saturday and clear coat the entire thing on Sunday. Does that sound reasonable? I''m talking about as far as timing with clear coat after the base coat. I didn't spray any clear coat on the accented areas today.

GO HOOSIERS!!

[Bicyclops]

Looks like it's working better for you. My fiberglass is so rough and ill fitting that I just don't even want to go down that road. :(

Ed

[Mark Eaton]

Looks like it's working better for you. My fiberglass is so rough and ill fitting that I just don't even want to go down that road. :(

Ed

That's a bummer. I have spent a lot of time modifiying the body. I have gotten pretty comfortable working with fiberglass. I will say that this 818 is a lot more work than the MK4 that I built.

[Bicyclops]

I've done fiberglass before, I just don't want to do a whole lot more of it right now. She looks better the further back you stand so I'm going with that for a while.

Ed

[driveslikejehu]

I was considering a wrap. I talked with one fellow who said the wrap guy hated it. Said the gel coat was weak and pulled off easily in spots. Doing paint, you could grind out those places and fill it. So, a couple of questions.
Did you find many places like that? And did you fill with regular polyester body filler?

[driveslikejehu]

She looks better the further back you stand so I'm going with that for a while.

Same. What we used to call a racecar finish.

[blomb11]

I want to wrap my 818R and that’s my plan for this winter is to start prepping the body for it. And I have been trying to figure out if I can get away with just using bondo or if I need to use resin and gel coat before wrapping.

[Ajzride]

Wraps are not waterproof, I wouldn’t want bondo under tha.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I want to wrap my 818R and that’s my plan for this winter is to start prepping the body for it. And I have been trying to figure out if I can get away with just using bondo or if I need to use resin and gel coat before wrapping.

Body needs to be prepped as it would be for paint and have a non-permeable finish; i.e. paint or gel coat, not primer.

Jeff

[Bicyclops]

I've always used West Systems epoxy and micro bubbles for final shape after milled fibers for build. Hard to tell how the shape blends without primer or at least guide coat and block sanding - more dry micro. Then you have to deal with pinholes. Rage or cheaper equivalent for that. And lots of high build primer, sand and repeat. Drastically modified Van's cowl:

221834221835

What fun! You can probably see why I don't really want to do it again right now. The saying in the Van's Aircraft community is that friends don't let friends build plastic airplanes. :p

Ed

[gbranham]

I'm hoping to mask again Friday night and spray Primer Sealer to the rest of the body and then spray the major color Saturday and clear coat the entire thing on Sunday. Does that sound reasonable? I''m talking about as far as timing with clear coat after the base coat. I didn't spray any clear coat on the accented areas today.

GO HOOSIERS!!

I've painted several cars, and always waited until the base coat flashed, then went directly to laying down the clear coat. Depending on temperature and humidity, that might only be 30 minutes or so, up to maybe an hour, tops. I don't think you need to wait overnight, if that's what you're thinking. And waiting too long (say, greater than 18-24 hours) can cause adhesion problems between BC and CC.

Greg

[Ajzride]

I've painted several cars, and always waited until the base coat flashed, then went directly to laying down the clear coat. Depending on temperature and humidity, that might only be 30 minutes or so, up to maybe an hour, tops. I don't think you need to wait overnight, if that's what you're thinking. And waiting too long (say, greater than 18-24 hours) can cause adhesion problems between BC and CC.

Greg

I also normally go straight to clear within a few hours. But I've also waited overnight for two-tone sections to dry so I could mask them off before the second color, and never had any adhesion problems on the first color.

[Mark Eaton]

I've painted several cars, and always waited until the base coat flashed, then went directly to laying down the clear coat. Depending on temperature and humidity, that might only be 30 minutes or so, up to maybe an hour, tops. I don't think you need to wait overnight, if that's what you're thinking. And waiting too long (say, greater than 18-24 hours) can cause adhesion problems between BC and CC.

Greg

Yes, that was basically my question. Time is my issue. I sprayed the Primer sealer tonight on the rest of the body after masking. I have to work all day tomorrow. I have Saturday off until about 2pm, then I have to work until Sunday at 0700. Then work again Monday at 0700 for seven days straight. I would like to spray base coats Saturday am , then clear coat Sunday. I didn't know if all of that timing works with the chemical bonding issues between primer sealer and the base and clear coats. I don't want to stop at this point and just get it painted but if it would be better to spray the primer sealer, base and clear all in the same 24hr period I can just bail and do it in a few weeks.

[Ajzride]

Yes, that was basically my question. Time is my issue. I sprayed the Primer sealer tonight on the rest of the body after masking. I have to work all day tomorrow. I have Saturday off until about 2pm, then I have to work until Sunday at 0700. Then work again Monday at 0700 for seven days straight. I would like to spray base coats Saturday am , then clear coat Sunday. I didn't know if all of that timing works with the chemical bonding issues between primer sealer and the base and clear coats. I don't want to stop at this point and just get it painted but if it would be better to spray the primer sealer, base and clear all in the same 24hr period I can just bail and do it in a few weeks.

If it were me, I would put it off until the schedule wasn't so hectic. It only takes one things going a little wrong to totally wreck a timeline that tight.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Mark,
The real answer to your question is in the tech sheets for the products you're using which will tell you what your recoat windows are. For example I use all PPG; after the 2K urethane primer surfacer has been sanded there is not a recoat window however after putting on the sealer it must be covered in base within 72 hours (too long IMO, but that's not the question), then after the base is down it must be covered in clear within 24 hours. These times are generally based on 70 degrees and will change as the temp does. Not all manufacturers are the same so check for your specific products and frankly if you're not using everything from the same manufacturer you're kinda' playing Russian Roulette.

Jeff

[Mark Eaton]

So I got the primer all figured out. I've been using my local NAPA store for products. They mixed some OEM colors for us. Did base coat and clear. Overall I'm very pleased, however, I believe we have ORANGE PEEL??

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=222756&d=1765516382

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=223153&d=1766333357

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=223154&d=1766333357

Plenty of Youtube videos on how to remedy this. Looks like wet sand 800, 1200,2000,3000 then cutting and buffing with dual action polisher until it looks great. No problem, my son Nick is home for christmas break.

Can I get advice on which cutting compound or polishing compounds are good? Or any other tips on how to do this? For the wet sanding I was going to use water with a little Dawn soap in it, wipe down frequently with microfiber cloth to check progress and not over sand...

[Ajzride]

Be super careful on corners and body lines, it’s easy to cut through the clear there. I start with 1500 at the roughest, I try to start with 2000. Starting at 800 sound like a recipe for taking off way too much way too fast.


That is pretty rough peel, I’ve certainly laid it down like that before. You could consider a “flow coat”. Which would be sanding it all perfectly flat with 600 grit then laying down 2 more coats of clear that have been thinned a little to flow out better.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Yes, you have a ton of peel! How many coats of clear did you put down? It’s going to take a lot of blocking to make that much texture smooth and flat with the challenge being to not go through. Honestly not sure if 3 coats of clear will be enough with that much texture but you can give it a go. 800 wet will cut fast so be careful, especially on edges and corners. When it comes to buffing I suggest you use Meguires M110 with a blended wool pad on a rotary, not DA. After that go to Meguires M210 with a foam pad on the rotary or an orbital. Again be careful and be sure you know how to keep your pad rotating off of and not into the panels.

Good luck,
Jeff

[Mark Eaton]

Thanks Jeff, Yeah, its like Orange Peel HELL!!!

I did 2 x double wet coats as per the tech sheet. It was TEC/BASE product from NAPA. Should I lay down some more clear coats so that I don't buff through it?

Incidentally, since I set out on this journey I have discovered a PPG Platinum store and plan to purchase products from that location. They are a paint only place.

[Mark Eaton]

That is pretty rough peel, I’ve certainly laid it down like that before. You could consider a “flow coat”. Which would be sanding it all perfectly flat with 600 grit then laying down 2 more coats of clear that have been thinned a little to flow out better.

This sounds way easier and safer for me than trying to block it all down and risk "burning through" in areas?

[Jeff Kleiner]

This sounds way easier and safer for me than trying to block it all down and risk "burning through" in areas?

What you’re talking about doing is called a “flow coat” but you still have to flatten it out first. Problem is that with only 2 coats you don’t have a lot to work with. And frankly, the other problem is that if you can’t lay clear down any better than this you’ll just end up with the same. Sorry to be blunt. Practice and work on your technique, gun settings and pressures before trying to spray on more clear Too bad you didn’t find the PPG store earlier but at this point you’re kind of committed and if you are going to add more clear on top it needs to be the same product. Very risky to start mixing manufacturers.

Jeff

[Mark Eaton]

Fair point

[Ajzride]

Fair point

Jeff would obviously disagree with me, but I think getting some PPG clear would be a good idea. You are not going to be going for a chemical bond at this point, you will be sanding everytihng and getting a mechanical bond. obivously body shops use the clear they like, not whatever the factory painted your car with. The PPG DCU2021 will blow your mind at how much smoother it goes down versus the TEC. I used the DCU2021 for the first time about a year ago and suddenly I felt like a pro painter.

I just color sanded a job that had about that much orange peel in it (The clear was laid on top of plastic-dip, which is rubber and does not lay down smooth like paint). I put on 4 coats of clear becasue I knew I would have to sand like crazy over the plastic-dip. It was a bigger vehicle than an 818 (long bed F150 crew cab), but probably took me close to 100 hours to get it smooth, and it's still not like glass. I went over the entire thing with 1500, 2000, 3000 then used a DA polisher for 3M 34131 (with a wool 34125 pad) then a 3M 34131 again (with a foam 34122 pad), then 3M 34133 (with a 34127 pad).

I also disagree with Jeff on a rotary versus a orbital. An orbital is much faster, but also much easier for a novice to burn their paint with. A DA is slower but safer.

If it were me, I would be sanding it all flat with 600 grit. it's okay if you go through the clear in a spot or too, as long as it's not all over the place. Then I would reclear with the DCU2021. The stuff is expensive as hell, but it's worth it in my opinion.

[Ajzride]

One more thing I'll say.

Don't be afraid to get a run here or there. It is way easier to get one or two runs out than it is to get the orange peel off of an entire car. There are several things that can cause orange peel, but not putting on enough paint so that it can "self-level" is the primary cause of it. You can also practice on these cheap panels from home depot. I bought about 8 of them. I sanded them all with 600 grit, and then cleared them. After you clear them, you can sand them flat with 600 grit and flow coat them. It's good practice.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/3-16-in-2-ft-x-4-ft-Black-Chalk-White-Marker-MDF-Board-00066/313382855

I practiced with cheap clear, that makes your technique better. I would probably do one final practice piece in good clear right before I started the actual car.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Jeff would obviously disagree with me, but I think getting some PPG clear would be a good idea. You are not going to be going for a chemical bond at this point, you will be sanding everytihng and getting a mechanical bond. obivously body shops use the clear they like, not whatever the factory painted your car with. The PPG DCU2021 will blow your mind at how much smoother it goes down versus the TEC. I used the DCU2021 for the first time about a year ago and suddenly I felt like a pro painter.

I just color sanded a job that had about that much orange peel in it (The clear was laid on top of plastic-dip, which is rubber and does not lay down smooth like paint). I put on 4 coats of clear becasue I knew I would have to sand like crazy over the plastic-dip. It was a bigger vehicle than an 818 (long bed F150 crew cab), but probably took me close to 100 hours to get it smooth, and it's still not like glass. I went over the entire thing with 1500, 2000, 3000 then used a DA polisher for 3M 34131 (with a wool 34125 pad) then a 3M 34131 again (with a foam 34122 pad), then 3M 34133 (with a 34127 pad).

I also disagree with Jeff on a rotary versus a orbital. An orbital is much faster, but also much easier for a novice to burn their paint with. A DA is slower but safer.

If it were me, I would be sanding it all flat with 600 grit. it's okay if you go through the clear in a spot or too, as long as it's not all over the place. Then I would reclear with the DCU2021. The stuff is expensive as hell, but it's worth it in my opinion.

Well yeah, I do disagree---on a couple of points. Again, I think it's kind of risky to be mixing products especially until the original clear is well and fully cured. After time and sanding it flat it will be less so but... You're right, the DCU2021 is great stuff (and pricey at around $800/gallon) and what I've been using for years but it has to go on a smooth, flat surface and not used as a "filler" to bury peel. Here's some right out of the gun prior to cut & buff:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=154644&d=1634777747

You have rotary and orbital and DA backwards. Rotary is most aggressive, orbital the least with dual action in between. The googles are your friend:

https://www.chemicalguys.com/blogs/exterior-how-tos/choosing-the-right-polisher

The 3M products you mentioned are part of their Perfect-it system designed for use with their # 34101 21mm throw random orbital machine. This is what I use for finish after cutting through with 3000 and and initial buff with the Meguires. It's great stuff when used at the end, not the beginning.

https://www.amazon.com/3M-Perfect-Automotive-Refinishing-Polishing/dp/B0BL3B9Q3Q/ref=asc_df_B0BL3B9Q3Q?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=79989660654477&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=71693&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583589125060163&th=1

Finally, if you do burn through the clear when sanding or buffing and your base color has flake or pearl (i.e. not a solid) you'll need to shoot and blend the base again because you will have disturbed the orientation of the flake/pearl on the top and it will show under subsequent coats of clear.

Jeff

[Mark Eaton]

Wow, thanks to both of you for the helpful input. I went to my PPG guy this morning with a panel to discuss the issues. We came up with a plan basically what Ajride is talking about. I bought a gallon of that high quality clear. I also bought a Clear Coat gun by Devilbiss. I love the panel idea and will head to Home Depot tonight to pick some up to practice on.

Lastly, there is a pro Hot Rod shop a mile from my shop and I spoke with the owner. I am going to bring a panel by tomorrow to show him and get his input. I still want to finish this with my son but I'll have him on back up in case I screw it up even more!

[Mark Eaton]

So, I tried a couple of things and wound up wet sanding down to the primer with 180 then 320grit. Then sprayed two base coats of Lumabase from the PPG store, let that sit overnight then blocked to 600 grit and went right away to Lumabase base coat 3 x coats (U91 BMW Frozen Black and M7J Porsche Neo Slate Gray) 1.3mm Nozzle, FLG-670, 16 PSI Inlet, 2 turns in from close or so. Then right away to Lumabase 2 x Wet coats, same gun settings except I used the DeVilbiss DV1 gun. Amazing gun! Here's what it looks like before cut and buff.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=225161&d=1770263853

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It aint perfect but way better than it was! And good enough for us!

It's been A LOT of work but I have actually enjoyed this part of the build quite a bit. I'm now looking forward to try my hand at painting the MK4 sometime this Spring...