Oil Pan RTV Questions

[AndrewIdaho]

Hello All,

If you have been following my build thread, you are aware that I needed to replace my oil pan on my Ford 302 as the pan extended below the frame rails. After research, I settled on a Champ CP302LT-RR and today is the day to remove the old pan, gasket, pickup and replace with the new ones (+bolts). Being a newbie, I spent some time earlier in the week watching you tube videos to get a feel for what was in front of me. I was expecting to see some RTV in the metal to metal joints, but I found RTV around the whole channel of the timing cover and none at the rear. I spent a couple of hours cleaning/scraping the RTV off of the timing cover channel using a thin scraper, carb cleaner and an ultrafine ScotchBrite pad (not an easy task when laying on your back under the car).

Timing Cover with RTV:
219074

Old Gasket with RTV:
219075

So I have a series of questions before I install the new parts:

1. Have I cleaned the timing cover channel sufficiently?
219076

2. Why would RTV have been placed on the timing cover channel and do I need to replicate that on the new install?

3. I reviewed a Felpro video (I have OS 13260 T gasket) and plan to follow their recommendations for the RTV placement (at metal to metal joints). Is there anything else I should be aware of?

My thanks in advance for the help.

Andrew

[gbranham]

I've always put a thin bead of RTV on both semi-circular humps, and in the corner where those humps meet the block. Never had a leak.

Greg

[Mike.Bray]

Check out Moroso one piece gaskets. Then do as Greg says.

[AndrewIdaho]

Check out Moroso one piece gaskets. Then do as Greg says.

Thanks - I already have a new Felpro one piece gasket. Are you suggesting I not use it or just reference their install instructions?

Best Regards, Andrew

[Mike.Bray]

Thanks - I already have a new Felpro one piece gasket. Are you suggesting I not use it or just reference their install instructions?

Best Regards, Andrew

Just use a one piece and not a four piece gasket. You still need some RTV in the corners.

[Rebostar]

I've used the Fel-Pro one piece for my last 6 engines. I'll never go back to the old 4 piece cork. As mentioned above, a liberal dab in the 4 corners will do nicely. I've never had a leak with the one piece and I've never gobbed up the timing cover channel.
Happy Trails

219081219082

[phileas_fogg]

I suspect the RTV all over the timing cover channel happened when whoever installed the pan didn't let the RTV set up long enough. I let the RTV set up 15 minutes before placing the pan, and I should have waited 20. Working upside down, you're bound to make a bit of a mess.

If you haven't installed a pan from underneath the car, or you just want a laugh, I documented a first-time replacement at https://www.ffcars.com/threads/john’s-excellent-oil-pan-adventure.637338/.


John

[AndrewIdaho]

I suspect the RTV all over the timing cover channel happened when whoever installed the pan didn't let the RTV set up long enough. I let the RTV set up 15 minutes before placing the pan, and I should have waited 20. Working upside down, you're bound to make a bit of a mess.

If you haven't installed a pan from underneath the car, or you just want a laugh, I documented a first-time replacement at https://www.ffcars.com/threads/john’s-excellent-oil-pan-adventure.637338/.

John

Thanks John,

I appreciate the link and have read through it. I ran in to the same issues with the pick up install this afternoon that you referenced (including a call to Forte :) ).

You reference using blue RTV in your post. Being a newbie I am not sure what distinguishes blue rtv from the rest ( I have the black high temp rtv and agree it is messy). Can you provide me further info on the blue rtv?

Best Regards, Andrew

[cv2065]

Thanks John,

I appreciate the link and have read through it. I ran in to the same issues with the pick up install this afternoon that you referenced (including a call to Forte :) ).

You reference using blue RTV in your post. Being a newbie I am not sure what distinguishes blue rtv from the rest ( I have the black high temp rtv and agree it is messy). Can you provide me further info on the blue rtv?

Best Regards, Andrew

I'd use black instead of blue. Better suited for an oil pan as it's more of a high performance sealant.

[CraigS]

I like Ultra Grey because it is thicker. Kind of like smooth peanut butter vs mayonnaise. I also prefer a 4 piece gasket but no cork, all rubber gasket material. I love a one piece if the engine is upside down on a stand but not in the car. The half moons in a 4 piece are light enough that a dab of UG at the ends and a thin smear cross the hump holds them in place against gravity. Then a thin smear on the sides of the pan to hold those gaskets in position on the pan and a thin smear on the edges of the block. You can use the plastic guides that come w/ some gaskets as guides. They go in the 4 larger bolt holes in the block. Using them or some extra long bolts to guide the pan. I then install the smaller bolts all along the side by hand. You don't really need a ratchet until the last 4-5 revolutions of the bolt. Go around and around the pan maybe 1 turn at a time and watch the gap pan to block. The ideal is to keep the pan perfectly parallel to the bottom of the block all the way until it is tight.

[AndrewIdaho]

John, I have a follow up question based on my attempts(and failures) at trial fitting of the pan and gasket today and re-reading your original thread.

I ran in to the same problem you did where bell housing bump out did not allow me to get the pan installed and using the the rear felpro fitting studs. I have come to the conclusion that I will need to install gasket and use rtv to hold it in place while I get the pan installed. You wrote in your original thread:



I applied the blue RTV as Frank directed to the engine side of the interface, let it set up a bit, and then secured the gasket to the engine by bolting the plates that go under the stock pan into place (hand tight; no torque). After letting the RTV set up for 15 minutes, I applied the blue RTV to the pan, unbolted the plates, and set the pan in place. Even though I’d practiced, there was still plenty of mess and cussing.

Once all the pan bolts were torqued, I let the pan sit for 36 hours and then filled it with oil. On Saturday, I took it for a drive, and…

No leaks! So this upgrade is complete. Thanks Frank!
....
NOTE: If I ever have to replace an oil pan gasket again, I’ll let the engine-side RTV set up for more like 30-60 minutes. At 15 minutes, the gasket still wanted to drop away from the block.


My engine did not come with plates that go under the stock pan and have no idea what they look like (bolts were directly securing the pan lip). Any idea on where to find them and how they are described?

Thanks, Andrew

[gbranham]

If you're talking about the oil pan equalizer bars, LMR and Summit sell them. Be sitting down when you see the price.

[rich grsc]

The pan stiffeners are used on stock Ford pans, don't think you can use them on aftermarket pans

[AndrewIdaho]

If you're talking about the oil pan equalizer bars, LMR and Summit sell them. Be sitting down when you see the price.

Thanks Greg,

A quick search of summit found these. Is this what you were describing?

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-6674-302

If so, ouch $200+ is steep.

Given the fitting studs won't work at the rear of the pan, any one have other ideas on how to hold the gasket in place as i finagle the pan into place while the engine is installed?

Thanks, Andrew

[David Williamson]

loosen the bell housing bolts 3 or 4 turns and slide the transmission back then the oil pan will fit on the plastic studs. Just make sure to remove the studs as soon as the pan is in place because if any RTV gets on them once it cures the studs are a pain to get out especially the ones at the back.
David W

[cv2065]

Given the fitting studs won't work at the rear of the pan, any one have other ideas on how to hold the gasket in place as i finagle the pan into place while the engine is installed?

Thanks, Andrew

Why not just use a very light dab of high tack gasket sealant or RTV to hold it for a minute while you screw it down? Not much, just a very thin smear in a couple of spots so it's easy to remove later if necessary.

[AndrewIdaho]

Thanks CV and all who have responded. I do have some Permatex high tack sealant that I could use. Right now I am trying to dry fit the champ pan (https://www.champpans.com/products/p/cp302lt-rr/) just to understand what I will need to do once I apply the gasket with RTV (as it presents time constraints) and so far I have not figured out how. If anyone has tips or tricks on how to install this pan I would greatly appreciated it (I cannot get it to slide in next to the bell housing as it is hitting something that I cannot see). If I cannot figure it out, I am strongly considering using David's suggestion of loosening the bell housing bolts and sliding it back in which case the I can use the studs to hold the gasket in place.

Thanks Andrew

[phileas_fogg]

Hi Andrew,

I used blue RTV because that's what Frank suggested. But everyone who's replied to this thread so far are also very experienced builders & you won't go wrong following their advice. It seems everyone has their preference, so for us noobs it seems there are multiple "right" products to use.



John

[AndrewIdaho]

Thanks John. I appreciate your insight and help. Since I already have the Permatex black RTV I will proceed with it (once I figure out the process to install the pan).

Best Regards, Andrew

[Ford & Jeep Fan]

Thanks Greg,

A quick search of summit found these. Is this what you were describing?

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-6674-302

If so, ouch $200+ is steep.

Given the fitting studs won't work at the rear of the pan, any one have other ideas on how to hold the gasket in place as i finagle the pan into place while the engine is installed?

Thanks, Andrew

Here is a set of used ones for $72+10 shipping on Ebay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/187553886724?fits=Make%3AFord&_skw=302+ford+oil+pan+stiffeners&epid=1423092075&itmmeta=01K5T7GHTYXH9MD5XQ3EQ37VG8&hash=item2bab153204:g:pKMAAOSw3ydVutgD&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAABAFkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1cnHFvXv XnuBgIc36tg8gqL3wIby4Md70YlAKm9G1iFwWtWL0IqfWxjfc3 pPHKz9xZAEPfymdM6w5V79dzEXjNd4WNIbceaAkLIaDa%2Bzl2 LLEh82y1Lo5JLKXcrIGz7EjbRlWkH9El9yaLAvAdq%2FfUG1m% 2FKGqHo95cLMM5EuyLe3jywivVKB3ILjedfUe0vG4hmRz%2FAv PsbKzg65wuLM2Xi298IHAuZlnpGc%2BYFmcCYSzxG4FqLelwvM IaSGvDfe95LR%2BbsOuv%2Bfq4EUqAxibdcxKPEmhKdQV53QWi 48grdnyd1CEW9dnW%2BkoMUB9sjqsQ%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-CdwseuZg

Used just means they might be scratched

[johnnybgoode]

These are the installation instructions for my old Quality Roadsters pan, they are very good and worked great for my install. The three tricks that made the install easy were to glue the gasket to the engine pan rails in advance with 3M contact adhesive, you can use the bolts to hold it in place while it dries. Sliding the trans back 1/4-3/8" as Craig suggests makes it much easier to bring the pan straight up without disturbing the gasket and RTV. Finally using the Fel-Pro Snap-Ups to hold the pan in place while you get the first few bolts in. I didn't have room for the rear ones but brought the pan up and hooked it with the front Snap-Ups and then got a couple of rear bolts started. Good Luck. Scott

Here's a link to my install thread.

https://www.ffcars.com/threads/oil-pan-powder-coat-and-re-install-with-fel-pro-os30616r-gasket.642583/?post_id=6116554#post-6116554

OIL PAN INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS


Congratulations on your purchase of a Quality Roadsters oil pan, the only oil pan designed from the ground up specifically for your FFR! The Quality Roadsters 302 pans are designed to use the stock Mustang oil pickup tube and dipstick. On Mustang donor engines, simply remove the stock pan and install your new pan. If using a 302 crate, explorer engine, or other, you must use a stock 87-93 Mustang pickup tube, (or our high flow tube), and a stock 87-93 dipstick. Our 351W pans come with a replacement pickup tube and dipstick designed to work with your new pan. You may also purchase one of our high flow pickup tubes. If you are using a main cap girdle, the regular pickup tube may not clear. In this case, you must use our high flow pickup tube. It is designed to clear most girdles. Any girdle will require custom work on the pickup tube in order to work.

Make sure the gasket surfaces are clean. I recommend you clean your new pan before installation as well. Double check to make sure the windage tray bolts are tight before installation. You must check pickup tube to oil pan clearance before installing your pan. To do this, install your pickup tube, and measure from the bottom of the block to the bottom of the pickup tube. Measure vertically, not on an angle. The pickup must be 1/2 inch from the bottom of the pan. Measure the depth of the pan and compare. The pickup tube bracket may be bent to adjust the clearance if necessary. Test fit the pan to make sure there are no clearance issues. Put the pan in place on the engine. If the pan holes wont line up with the block, it’s probably the scraper hitting the pick up tube. Wiggle the pan back and forth to make a scratch mark on the scraper to determine where you need to make your adjustments. Simply bend the scraper down in those areas until it clears. While the pan is in place, rotate the engine backwards to check for crankshaft to scraper interference. If the crank is hitting the scraper, you will hear it, and it will leave a mark on the scraper. Again, simply bend the scraper down in those areas. I suggest you give the crank a little extra room just in case you miscalculate. You may also find that the back lip of the pan (where it goes around the rear main bearing cap) hits the transmission dust shield, preventing the pan holes from lining up just right. If this is the case, you can gently tap the lip in with a hammer. Once you have solved any clearance issues, you may perform the final install. Apply a small dab of RTV sealant to the block on both sides of the rear main cap (in the corners), both sides of the ½ circle on the timing cover (in the corners) and where the timing cover meets the block. I recommend Felpro pan gasket part # OS34508R for the 302 and OS34506R or OS30616R for the 351W depending on engine year (see your parts supplier). This is a one-piece rubber gasket reinforced with metal, and if installed properly it’s virtually leak proof. If the engine is in the car and gravity is working against you, use some interior trim adhesive to hold the gasket to the block (such as 3M super trim adhesive). The gasket must be installed on the engine, and then the pan put in place. Do not attempt to install the gasket on the pan, and then put the pan in place. Make sure the gasket is in place over the main cap and the ½ circle on the timing cover. Once the gasket is in place, apply a layer of RTV to the pan on both side flanges and to the gasket in the corners at the main cap, and on the timing cover to prevent leaks. Install the pan. If your original pan had flange reinforcement brackets, do not use them. Also the stock Mustang pan bolts are to long and will bottom out in the block before the pan is tight. In all cases MR GASKET oil pan bolt kit part# 6087 works nicely. The flange on the heads of the larger bolts is sometimes too large to seat properly. In this case, grind off enough of the flange on the bolts to fit properly. Check that the gasket is properly in place (especially on the main cap and ½ circle on the timing cover) and tighten the bolts. The Felpro gasket has metal rings around each hole to prevent the gasket from being over tightened. Check your drain plug to make sure it is tight. Install your oil temp sender or the pipe plug and fill with oil. Use Teflon tape on the pipe threads. The pan has a minimum capacity of 8 quarts. You can run more if you like, but do not go over the full mark on the dipstick. Make sure the dipstick is installed at the proper angle in order to get a correct reading. The dipstick tube should be close to the cylinder head if installed properly. You must also add enough oil to fill the filter (about a quart), and to fill the oil cooler (if you are using one). An oil cooler and lines can hold as much as 2 quarts. "

[AndrewIdaho]

These are the installation instructions for my old Quality Roadsters pan, they are very good and worked great for my install. The three tricks that made the install easy were to glue the gasket to the engine pan rails in advance with 3M contact adhesive, you can use the bolts to hold it in place while it dries. Sliding the trans back 1/4-3/8" as Craig suggests makes it much easier to bring the pan straight up without disturbing the gasket and RTV. Finally using the Fel-Pro Snap-Ups to hold the pan in place while you get the first few bolts in. I didn't have room for the rear ones but brought the pan up and hooked it with the front Snap-Ups and then got a couple of rear bolts started. Good Luck. Scott
....
"

Thanks Scott. This is most helpful.

Best Regards, Andrew