HELP missing C of O and receipts. Can’t title!!!

[Chrismeyer]

Hello, I built a MK2 for my Dad back in 2002 for his 60th birthday. He recently passed and gave it back to me. The car was never titled but sat in his office all this time. I can’t locate the C of O or the file containing the build pics and receipts. We bought the kit from a gent acting as a supplier for FF at the time so the C of O is listed in his name so FF can’t help. The suppliers name was Mike Mack from Tri State Motorsports and he seems to have disappeared from the planet. I do have a copy of the C of O showing my name signed on with a notary stamp but that doesn’t help. Any ideas on how to title the car or is it a lost cause? Any help is appreciated.
Thank you,
Chris.

[Papa]

Each state is different. Your state should have a process for titling a vehicle without the Certificate of Origin.

[Chrismeyer]

The DMV here in Florida needs either the C of O or they can title it “from Parts” if I have the receipts for the major components and I have neither. I only have a copy of the receipt from the kit purchase and a copy of the C of O. Strange it’s not like my Dad to misplace anything but the original file I gave him containing everything is nowhere to be found.

[Papa]

Here is what I found with a basic search:


What to do without any ownership information

If you cannot contact the previous owner and have no documents whatsoever, your options are limited. In this case, you may need to file an Application for a Certificate of Title with the FLHSMV, which will likely trigger a detailed investigation into the vehicle's history. The department must be able to verify that the vehicle is not stolen and that no other party has a claim to it. You will need to provide as much information about the vehicle as possible and explain your circumstances.

It seems to me that you have copies of original documents with your name and or your father's name, and those could be enough to prove ownership in your case. But, it is always easier for the clerk at the DMV to just say "no" so that they don't have to do any additional work. You are likely in for a fight, but keep pressing and I suspect you will eventually find someone in the FL system that can actually help.

Is sending the vehicle to a relative in another state an option? They may be able to title it in their state and then you could use that title to title it in FL.

[cv2065]

Don’t go to the DMV. Go to an independent tag agency like OATA in Orlando. They may be able to help a bit more.

[edwardb]

I can only cite experience with the state of Michigan. Others may be similar, but I have no way of knowing. In Michigan, they have a "missing or lost title" process if you have documents to show you're the rightful owner but not the necessary legal document(s), e.g. a Certificate or Origin or title. But they require a surety bond for the value of the vehicle. They say to protect you, but in reality is probably for their protection. It's happened to me once. My independent insurance agent was able to shop my situation and sell me the bond. FWIW.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Waiting for that Montana Title guy to chime in...

Jeff

[Mike.Bray]

Waiting for that Montana Title guy to chime in...

Jeff

Beat me to it Jeff!

[Mike.Bray]

I would bet you will need to go the bonded title route. If you do a search you should find someone specializing in bonded titles, probably an attorney. I know one here in Texas but she probably can't help you in Florida.

[Chrismeyer]

Thank you guys for the help. The dmv here is pretty swamped all the time as they take appointments from people outside the county and it’s a mess. The clerks all talk to you like they haven’t slept for days and don’t seem to care much. I’ve heard of the bonded title thing but wasn’t sure if that applied to my situation or not. I’m assuming most of the hoops I have to jump through are to prove the components of this car aren’t stolen thus the bond? There is an OATA office near me the next county up also. That might be my next best option.
Out of curiosity I’m sensing some sarcasm regarding the “Montana guy” could someone tell me what that is??
Thanks again everyone.
Chris

[CraigS]

Another option is try to find the org chart for the Fl DMV. Then work your way up via email or phone. Once you get away from a local DMV office you get to people who have a bit more time to work w/ you.

[mrglaeser]

Thank you guys for the help. The dmv here is pretty swamped all the time as they take appointments from people outside the county and it’s a mess. The clerks all talk to you like they haven’t slept for days and don’t seem to care much. I’ve heard of the bonded title thing but wasn’t sure if that applied to my situation or not. I’m assuming most of the hoops I have to jump through are to prove the components of this car aren’t stolen thus the bond? There is an OATA office near me the next county up also. That might be my next best option.
Out of curiosity I’m sensing some sarcasm regarding the “Montana guy” could someone tell me what that is??
Thanks again everyone.
Chris

Montana allows out of state vehicles to be registered with Montana plates under a business registered in the Montana. This is used for questionably legal registrations of super and rare cars for 'tax optimization' by some out there. Florida actually had a pretty big crack down on this activity a few years ago (I can no longer find the articles I'm sure I saw stories on VinWiki). There is a forum user who is a big proponent of these registrations. I'd say investigate at your own risk as some states consider it tax evasion having laws that if you are resident then your vehicles must be registered in state.

https://news.bloombergtax.com/daily-tax-report/got-montana-plates-states-ramp-up-the-scrutiny-on-tax-dodgers

[Mike.Bray]

Thank you guys for the help. The dmv here is pretty swamped all the time as they take appointments from people outside the county and it’s a mess. The clerks all talk to you like they haven’t slept for days and don’t seem to care much. I’ve heard of the bonded title thing but wasn’t sure if that applied to my situation or not. I’m assuming most of the hoops I have to jump through are to prove the components of this car aren’t stolen thus the bond? There is an OATA office near me the next county up also. That might be my next best option.
Out of curiosity I’m sensing some sarcasm regarding the “Montana guy” could someone tell me what that is??
Thanks again everyone.
Chris

I understand the bonded title is to insure nothing is stolen. Usually the bond is for two years and during that time the car cannot be sold. Or sold out of state. Something like that.

I looked into the Montana LLC loophole and thought the risk wasn't worth it. A few years ago it wasn't a big deal but now all of the states know about it and Montana registrations raise a red flag. It's basically tax evasion.

https://www.hagerty.com/media/market-trends/hagerty-insider/the-montana-license-plate-loophole-explained/

[Jeff Kleiner]

To clarify though the Montana titling loophole is not just tax as avoidance it is sometimes used to avoid a vehicle having to comply with various state emission and/or equipment and safety requirements or inspections as well as a means to skirt around a state's titling and registration process and regulations. Of course a byproduct of that is that it also avoids paying the applicable taxes and fees. As has been mentioned this is no longer a "well kept secret" and has the potential to explode in the user's face much like the Alabama title scheme (which brought down some high profile personalities) did a couple of decades ago.

Jeff

[MB750]

Thank you guys for the help. The dmv here is pretty swamped all the time as they take appointments from people outside the county and it’s a mess. The clerks all talk to you like they haven’t slept for days and don’t seem to care much. I’ve heard of the bonded title thing but wasn’t sure if that applied to my situation or not. I’m assuming most of the hoops I have to jump through are to prove the components of this car aren’t stolen thus the bond? There is an OATA office near me the next county up also. That might be my next best option.
Out of curiosity I’m sensing some sarcasm regarding the “Montana guy” could someone tell me what that is??
Thanks again everyone.
Chris

I'm one of the "Montana LLC" success stories (sort of). Contrary to popular belief from this forum, it's a very convenient way to get a title and registration for your vehicle if you don't want to deal with too much red tape from your current state. I'm an FL resident and I went that route because the DMV here does NOT recognize Factory Five as a replica manufacturer and would have branded my title as "Assembled from Parts" like I put it together from random scrap from the junk yard. Your mileage may vary, but that was my experience from my local DMV.

As far as the tax dodging, yes I did save some money, around $800, but I would have gladly paid if Florida actually followed their own rules. As a homeowner here in FL, I assure you, they're getting PLENTY of money from me in taxes.

The only problem I had was 1 Dollar Montana didn't ask for my title to be printed so I had to break a foot off in their ***** over the internet to get it. Apparently I'm an exception to the norm, and I did get my title, but there was a little stress from it. Yea, it's a loophole, and from my recent visit to the FFR factory, all their showroom cars had MONTANA plates.

And if I ever really do want an FL title, I can just transfer it to FL and into my name. FL will maintain the year (which mine says 1965), but they will change the manufacturer to whatever the braindead zombie behind the DMV counter thinks is close enough to Factory Five Racing.

[Chrismeyer]

Thanks again everyone for the help. I’m going to get after this next week and see what I can get done.
All the best!
Chris

[CraigS]

I did an OATA like route bringing a car from Va to Md. It is the huge attitude difference that makes it work. They are super knowledgeable, probably more so than any DMV counter person. And they actually WANT to help you. It is how they get paid vs a gov employee who gets the same check whether you get your title or not.

[Chrismeyer]

Does anyone know if the car still needs to be weighed and inspected when going the OATA route?
Thank you,
Chris

[cv2065]

Does anyone know if the car still needs to be weighed and inspected when going the OATA route?
Thank you,
Chris

I answered your PM Chris, but for anyone else reading, no, they do not if it is registered as an antique. If you bring in the TL-48 replica paperwork, that should be how it goes. If it gets register as ASPT (assembled from parts) then it will need one. Very simple though as I’ve done it both ways.

[Chrismeyer]

Thanks CV it appears the only wildcard with my situation is the lack of an original C of O. Hopefully my copy of the original will do and if not the bonded route could be an option. Going to meet the OATA folks tomorrow and see how it goes.
Thanks again!
C

[wallace18]

FFR has given a CO with proof of death certificate in the past. I would contact them.

[Chrismeyer]

I contacted FF already and because our kit was purchased from a distributor and not from them directly there is nothing they can do. They will only replace a C of O for the original purchaser. I tried to track that person down but didn’t have any luck. I only have a copy of the original C of O along with a kit bill of sale from the distributor.