Body on, now overheating issues!

[jbow03]

Well, I have picked the car up from the body shop (yay!) but now that the body is on I’m having temp issues while driving around the neighborhood. When I was go karting, it seemed like it was staying on top of cooling pretty well.

One thing I noticed is the temp can jump up/down sometimes as well. Is this possibly air in the system?

I don’t have the nose aluminum in yet, could it make that big of a difference to direct the air? Trying not to put more parts on that may have to come off if this doesn’t work!

[gbranham]

I don't have my nose aluminum in, and.mine stays cool even on hot days. I am using Breeze's radiator fan shroud, while really helps. Does your upper radiator hose get hot one the engine is up to temp? If not, your t-stat may not be opening. Does your fan kick on when its supposed to?

And yep, you could have air in the cooling system still, if you're seeing quick temp fluctuations. Take the t-filler radiator cap off, and milk the lower radiator hose to get sone air out. And if you have a temp sender in the intake manifold, near the distributor, remove that while milking the lower hose. You might even be able to add coolant at the t-filler while watching that sender location in the manifold. Fill until coolant just begins to come out of that bung.

[rich grsc]

Nose aluminum has nothing to do with the body if it needs be removed

[egchewy79]

Possibly air.
do you have you T filler at the highest point of the system? The bung for the temp sender at the top of the intake can trap air. I filled my coolant from one of my heater hoses held high in the air (like a beer bong) until the fluid made it to the top of the temp sender bung. Then I put in the temp sender to ensure all air was out of this area. Filled the rest of the heater hose and stuck my thumb over the hose while connecting to the water pump. Drilling a small hole at 12 oclock in the thermostat can also help air escape from the intake

[cv2065]

I'd say air too if its random. I jacked up the front of the car a bit and opened the t-filler and slowly filled as needed as the air bubbled out. I could easily hear it. Once done I filled the overflow 1/3rd of the way full and was good to go.

[Blitzboy54]

Crack a fitting on the top of the engine where air and coolant can leak out. Run the engine up to temp and make sure nothing but liquid is coming out. If you see bubbles first that was likely your problem.

[JMD]

I'm running the body without nose aluminum and haven't had a problem. Make sure you keep some fluid in the overflow/recovery can. You want it about 1/4 full when the engine is cold. As it gets hot some fluid will expand out of the system into the can, then suck back in as it cools as long as you are using a recovery can and not just a catch can (and have it connected properly). This will help your engine 'burp' itself free of air naturally, just make sure it's not going completely dry.

[jbow03]

After doing some research, I have seen recommendations for a higher temperature thermostat. The number that I keep seeing is 195°.

Interested in everyone’s thoughts on this. The idea is that with 180° thermostat the thermostat is never closing And the water is never given time to cool inside the radiator. Wow, I have my questions about that philosophy, I’m curious to see if anybody has any experience.

Is the thermostat supposed to open exchange the radiator coolant with the engine block coolant and then close again? Then repeat this cycle over and over again?

[JMD]

I don't know what engine you have, but my engine builder spec'd a 190 degree thermostat for my 302. It runs well and never seems to go over 195.

A mechanical thermostat isn't a switch, it's not all on or off at a certain temp. It starts to open as it approaches the set temp, then stays open until the temp falls below that number. Even then it doesn't just snap shut, it closes gradually, so it's not really cycling full on and off. It's slowly restricting and expanding to regulate the flow of coolant to maintain a fairly constant temp. The thermostat setting just keeps the minimum temp from falling below it's set value. If it's getting hotter than that, there's air in the system, a restriction elsewhere (like a collapsed hose or failing pump), or your engine is creating more heat than your coolant system can handle.

[jbow03]

Here's my setup:
-302 Motor
-Mild Cam
-GT40P Heads
-Stock Reverse Rotation Water Pump
-180 Degree Thermostat
-FFR Supplied 13LB Radiator Cap
-FFR Supplied Overflow
-FFR Supplied Radiator
-FFR Supplied Fan
-Holley Sniper 2 EFI + HyperSpark Ignition
-Holley set to turn the fan on at 195 degrees and off below 185

[jbow03]

216897

Is that sending unit the one you pull out to check for air?

[jbow03]

I can’t get it to pull below 196 degrees now. Reading the same from the Holley sending unit and the dash unit.

216898216899

[Fman]

How long (miles) did you drive it go karting before installing the body? When you say jump up and down on the temp what temp range are you referring to? The most efficient way to fill the cooling system is with a vacuum filler. Maybe you did this? If not this method will just about completely eliminate any air in your cooling system. With a 500+ HP 427 stroker I run a 180 Ford oem t-stat, breeze shroud, FFR radiator, Flex a lite 3000 CFM cooling fan, 2 QT canton overflow and never go above 180-185 even on a warm day sitting in traffic.

Link to vacuum filler:

https://www.amazon.com/Time-saving-Well-sealed-Pressure-Adapters-Vehicles/dp/B0CP24TVNF/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?crid=GUUV118RN24K&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.dxTPGpPHqRskELJVCTw6TbBbySXwBEPuW kb9vTtMh6uAvsMFgozgbThCFAayYkCN1p6ppTF-X0HyAQA5Y4ERFVb-nHEM4vqKxrd3TEf7q9gW0TYIMTT1SJ3qJ-SxzKF5GCdnWHQ0IZ7KjzPPBAKOwO5WCgtzog5bsh33ALtjhtHu H19exnT9jk3o718UgDNlAAeep00Ge3PeJ9erY2gAQx2nXi-xIZ9I4C5IGDjL9XcrR6xvIyXUfyN00rBd7BnM0tdLerGLxBqpo S8YnU1yi7ybd64tqQXfHlxkkT9K7w4.u2wVnvIsRlU0uSWph5s qltXajHVkGOrnNFge0zMtxbQ&dib_tag=se&keywords=vacuum%2Bfill%2Bcoolant&qid=1753657137&sprefix=vacuum%2Bfill%2Bcoolan%2Caps%2C189&sr=8-3-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1

[jbow03]

Drove 30 miles according to odometer. Temp will be steady then jump +/- 5 degrees or more.

Happy to drain and refill the system. This is kind of a bummer at this point!

[Fman]

Drove 30 miles according to odometer. Temp will be steady then jump +/- 5 degrees or more.

Happy to drain and refill the system. This is kind of a bummer at this point!

+/- 5 degrees off the 180 T stat is not uncommon. IMHO these gauges are also not completely 100% accurate. I know this because my EFI also has a temp gauge that is never exactly on par with the speed hut gauge, 5-10 degree temp difference between the two. Your t stat will open and close causing some temp fluctuation. What you are experiencing sounds totally normal to me. If you were going from 180 to 210 that would be a different scenario. I would just keep driving it at this point unless you start getting some more drastic temp fluctuations. Also make sure your fan is coming on at the proper temp. I am running Pro Flo 4 EFI so I have my fan set at coming on at 190.

If you do want to do a vacuum refill this definitely would only help and eliminate any potential air pockets you could have. It is very easy to do and like I mentioned works extremely well.

[CraigS]

It used to be that carb engines ran 180deg stats while efi engines ran 190-195 stats. My feeling was that the 195 helped reduce emissions somehow. I have never liked that because, at the time the regular cars went to efi, the actual mechanical engine was the same as it was the year before. OTOH, GM has been running their engines at 210 or so for a long time.

[JMD]

I wouldn't worry about a variation in temps less than 10 degrees. That doesn't mean something is wrong. If it's getting to 20 degrees above what your thermostat is set to, then yeah, do some investigating. My thermostat is a 180 and it fluctuates between 185-195 depending on what the conditions are.

You're absolutely certain it's a 180 degree thermostat and not a 190? Temps at or below 200 aren't really anything to worry about in and of itself. Especially during summer months.

[jbow03]

I purchased the vacuum kit. Drained the radiator from the plug at the bottom. Hooked up the kit, pulled the vac per the instructions. The hoses collapsed as described. Put the tube in the coolant and opened things up.

Everything seemed to go well, but it really didn't pull much coolant in. Maybe a gallon went back in? Do I then top off like normal after that?

[Fman]

I purchased the vacuum kit. Drained the radiator from the plug at the bottom. Hooked up the kit, pulled the vac per the instructions. The hoses collapsed as described. Put the tube in the coolant and opened things up.

Everything seemed to go well, but it really didn't pull much coolant in. Maybe a gallon went back in? Do I then top off like normal after that?

Something is not right. Are you taking it down to -20 to -25 INHg? it should fill it completely back up at least 95%+ of it then just top it off. If I remember correctly the FFR radiator holds about 3.5-4 gallons of fluid. I would do it again and make sure you are drawing it down to the correct pressure on the gauge. I have done this a few times before and it always has filled the system back up with no issues.

[jbow03]

I think so, see the attached pics.

Could something be installed wrong? I'm going to pull the hoses and check the thermostat tonight.

216960216961

[Fman]

I think so, see the attached pics.

Could something be installed wrong? I'm going to pull the hoses and check the thermostat tonight.

216960216961

Does it hold pressure for a couple mins without dropping? I also had to clamp off my overflow tube coming off the fill neck to avoid leaking air from the vacuum. You need to have it completely leak free.

[jbow03]

Yes, I probably left it alone for a minute or so while I was prepping the coolant and it held. I'm using the triangular looking adapter that seals below the overflow so I think I'm good there.

Well, thinking through this a bit more...

This process doesn't remove any (it pulls a little but not much) of the fluid that is in the system, it just removes the air. Is that correct? Then when more material is added, it simply fills the void left by the old air.

[gbranham]

I think you've overcomplicated things. Yes, you'll have some mild coolant temp fluctuations...mine fluctuates around 5-7 degrees while driving. That's normal. As far as filling the system with coolant, it's not that difficult. Remove the radiator cap from the t-filler, remove the temp sender from the intake manifold, and fill at the t-filler until coolant comes out of the intake manifold temp sender bung. Then milk the lower radiator hose several times to burp out some air. Add more coolant at the t-filler. Do this several times until no more air burps out. Fill overflow reservoir 1/3, button up the engine, and fire it up. Bring it up to temp until coolant expands into overflow reservoir. Let engine cool to draw coolant back in, then once fully cool, remove radiator cap from t-filler and add some more coolant. Heat cycle a couple more times, add coolant as necessary, and you should be good to go. I've never used the vacuum contraption you have there...I've built several cars and two FFRs, and that's never been necessary. I think you've come up with a solution for a problem that maybe didn't exist in the first place.

Greg

[gbranham]

216897

Is that sending unit the one you pull out to check for air?

Yes, that's the one. I had an unused port on the opposite side of the intake (black plug in this pic). I removed one of those. They'll all part of the same coolant passage. With the plug or sender removed, fill at the t-filler until the coolant level is to the bung threads, then reinstall your sender.

216975

[Mike.Bray]

I'm confused. All I did was fill the system at the cap which is the high point, start the engine, and watch for the thermostat to open. After a bit I top it off and I'm good to go. I do have a 1/8" hole in the T stat to help bleed air.

Running the Breeze shroud which I know is a big help and a Flex A Lite 3000 CFM fan.

Temperature never gets above 190 according to the digital readout from the ECU no matter how hot the ambient is or how long I sit idling.

Maybe I'm just lucky? Although that's not usually the case.

[jbow03]

Mike- I know, I was hoping for the same! Not sure exactly what's going on but I'm hoping it's one of these "easier" solutions before having to do something drastic like see if the head gasket is on correct!

[J R Jones]

Back in the day roadracing in SCCA we ran SBF 289, 302, and 351. Our cooling systems were based on SBC Corvette systems with aluminum crossflow radiators and Harrison aluminum surge tanks with pressure cap.
The 5/8 hose off the bottom of the surge tank went to the intake manifold next to the distributor. The 3/8 hose near the top of the surge tank went to the radiator side tank to let it bleed air radiator to tank.
I have a similar system on this Roadster replica using a translucent surge tank. I fill through the surge tank, down into the engine and forward into the radiator through the lower radiator hose. The air vents off the radiator into the surge tank. To accelerate filling I can slip the surge tank out of it's mount for more gravity drop. If I tip the surge tank I can see the air from the radiator bubbling in the surge tank. When it stops venting, the system is full. On one occasion of three drain circumstances I had to top-off the surge tank after a test drive. In this configuration it would be advantageous to have the surge tank a bit higher, but there is only so much head space to work with. The only down side is on a cold start rev, coolant pushes into the surge tank. When the thermostat opens, the surge is diminished. In this case the cap vents out the lower edge, so over-fill can be messy. "Seeing" the fill l level in the surge tank is reasuring.
jim

216987

[Fman]

Yes, I probably left it alone for a minute or so while I was prepping the coolant and it held. I'm using the triangular looking adapter that seals below the overflow so I think I'm good there.

Well, thinking through this a bit more...

This process doesn't remove any (it pulls a little but not much) of the fluid that is in the system, it just removes the air. Is that correct? Then when more material is added, it simply fills the void left by the old air.

All the coolant you drained out should all go back into the system. You can also add a little more to the bucket to avoid sucking any air when the fluid gets to the bottom. This is by far the best way to fill your system back up with no air pockets. It is pulling fluid back into the system leaving no air pockets. As I mentioned (and others) earlier, your temp fluctuations are completely within range +/- 5 degrees. This should be a very simple process refilling with the vacuum filler, not really much more I can say at this point... hopefully you can get it figured out. You can also find many you tube videos out there on how to do this.

[jbow03]

Ok, I'm going to assume I've gotten the air out at this point. My list of things to check in order of ease, let me know if you can think of anything else:

1. Thermostat
2. Water Pump Rotation (https://lmr.com/item/LRS-38501B/mustang-ford-motorcraft-water-pump-pw291-79-93)
3. Correct Timing Cover for reverse rotation WP (https://lmr.com/item/LRS-6019K/83-93-Mustang-50L-302-Efi-Timing-Cover-Kit-Includes-Gaskets)
4. Head Gasket Orientation I remember researching this for a solid few hours to make sure I got it right, but there could be passages blocked.

Not sure where to go from there.

[gbranham]

As many of us have said, your temp fluctuations are normal. Not sure why you are ignoring the collective wisdom, or why you're trying to figure out where to go from here. I think your cooling system is fine. Seems like a big leap to assume water pump, head gaskets, etc are bad, based on your only symptom of 5 degree fluctuations in coolant temp.

Greg

[jbow03]

Sorry, obviously not expressing my problem clearly!

Temp is currently uncontrollable. After a 10 minute drive in the neighborhood temps are beyond 210 and not slowing down. Fan kicks on as programed (195) in the Sniper but it never catches up to get the temp under control.

My unique dilemma is that I felt I was able to go kart around without any issues at all. But if I'm honest, the ambient temps were quite different then and it's no blazing summer in Houston. So, I started the thread to brainstorm "what am I missing here?" One of the first things I thought of was a cooling system that needed burped. I feel like I've run that to ground now and still have the issue.

Sorry for the confusion, still grateful for any additional input/thoughts.

[JMD]

Has someone already asked about a sticking thermostat? (I didn't re-read the whole thread.) Maybe it's not opening fully and that's now become an issue as ambient temps increased during summer. It's a cheap part to swap out just for peace of mind. Go with a Ford OEM unit, if possible.

[jbow03]

Yes, I think that will be my first step tonight! Thermostat and see where things go from there.

JW

[Mike.Bray]

I don't know if I missed it but do you have a shroud? They make a big difference by forcing all of the airflow through the radiator and fan.

https://breezeautomotive.com/shop/radiator-fan-shroud/

[jbow03]

Hey Mike, yes I picked up the Breeze shroud but stuck with the stock fan. I didn’t get the better one folks reference on here.

[Mike.Bray]

The stock FFR fan that came with my kit couldn't blow out a candle and sounded like a jet engine on takeoff. I have the Breeze shroud with a Flex A Lite 3000 CFM fan it never even a hint of overheating.

[JMD]

The stock FFR fan that came with my kit couldn't blow out a candle and sounded like a jet engine on takeoff. I have the Breeze shroud with a Flex A Lite 3000 CFM fan it never even a hint of overheating.

Maybe you got a lemon. Greg used the stock fan with his 427 and hasn't had any issues, even during a hot Kansas summer!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?51867-Real-World-Test-of-FFR-Radiator-Fan

I guess your results might vary? Maybe they changed fans/suppliers sometime in the last couple of years...?

[gbranham]

Yep, my FFR fan works just fine, and I honestly don't really hear it while driving.

[jbow03]

Not sure about the CFM but I’ve confirmed it spins the right direction and is putting out some decent heat. But something in the overall system is still unhappy not getting temps down.

New thermostat tonight… we’ll see.

[Mike.Bray]

Yep, my FFR fan works just fine, and I honestly don't really hear it while driving.

I would say we do not have the same fan. Mine sounded like a J79 on afterburner:p

[jbow03]

Do I really need a thermostat? I live in a warm climate and don't have a heater... Maybe I can eliminate a potential problem?

[cv2065]

Do I really need a thermostat? I live in a warm climate and don't have a heater... Maybe I can eliminate a potential problem?

Yep, a t-stat is necessary to keep the cooling regulated.

[gbranham]

Yes, you need a thermostat. When you installed yours, was the spring facing the engine? It should.

[jbow03]

Okay, I have more data. New 180 degree thermostat installed and oriented correctly. I left the cap off the filler to watch for movement and this is what I saw.

At just over 180 degrees: https://youtube.com/shorts/_2-8sPKpF3Y?feature=share

Then, as it crossed over 185 things slowed until this: https://youtube.com/shorts/dHHduVXu1_Y?feature=share

To me it looks like the coolant stopped moving or was at least much slower. Any ideas? Water pump issue?

JW

[J R Jones]

A surge tank at the top of the cooling system, purges air from the system and provides a refill of coolant.
In your dilemma I would use an infrared thermal reader and monitor readings at the thermostat, the input to the radiator, and the output of the radiator. That will confirm flow and radiator delta. Do not target shiny surfaces like band clamps or chrome.
jim

[jbow03]

Here's some temp data from idle. Initial temp was higher than normal because it was running a few hours earlier. Fan came on once and got itself down low enough to turn off one time. After that, the temp went up and never came down low enough to go off.

217129

[CraigS]

2 thoughts. 1- Starting from empty I remove the temp sensor so air can come out. I fill at the T- filler until coolant seeps from the sensor and then reinstall the sensor. I can usually get maybe a pint more into the filler, then I install the pressure cap. I fill the reservoir to 2/3 full and start the engine. I wait until the top rad hose gets hot indicating the T-stat has opened and shut down the engine. I let it cool for several hours while watching the reservoir to be sure it doesn't go dry. I top up the reservoir to 2/3 again, start the engine, and wait for a hot top hose. Let it cool and top the reservoir again but only to half way. Then I go for a short drive. If all is well I monitor the reservoir for a few drives. I like to see it 1/4 to 1/3 full when cold and 2/3 to 3/4 full when hot. Note, when I put the pressure cap on, I never take it off again. I do all topping up at the reservoir.
2- Can you show a pic of your reservoir? Maybe the hose is not attached to the correct fitting?

[MB750]

Have you ever seen temps substantially higher than 210? Something in the neighborhood of 240F?

[MB750]

The stock FFR fan that came with my kit couldn't blow out a candle and sounded like a jet engine on takeoff. I have the Breeze shroud with a Flex A Lite 3000 CFM fan it never even a hint of overheating.

Like this one?

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/flx-105390

[Mike.Bray]

Like this one?

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/flx-105390

That's the one!

[jbow03]

Have you ever seen temps substantially higher than 210? Something in the neighborhood of 240F?

Probably not 240 but for sure 220-230.

[jbow03]

2 thoughts. 1- Starting from empty I remove the temp sensor so air can come out. I fill at the T- filler until coolant seeps from the sensor and then reinstall the sensor. I can usually get maybe a pint more into the filler, then I install the pressure cap. I fill the reservoir to 2/3 full and start the engine. I wait until the top rad hose gets hot indicating the T-stat has opened and shut down the engine. I let it cool for several hours while watching the reservoir to be sure it doesn't go dry. I top up the reservoir to 2/3 again, start the engine, and wait for a hot top hose. Let it cool and top the reservoir again but only to half way. Then I go for a short drive. If all is well I monitor the reservoir for a few drives. I like to see it 1/4 to 1/3 full when cold and 2/3 to 3/4 full when hot. Note, when I put the pressure cap on, I never take it off again. I do all topping up at the reservoir.
2- Can you show a pic of your reservoir? Maybe the hose is not attached to the correct fitting?

Ok, so you think it could still be a lack of a full coolant system? Happy to try this out Monday and we’ll see how it goes!

[jbow03]

I’ll try the coolant again, but interested in y’all’s thoughts on the next logical steps. Here’s where I am:

1. Re-fill coolant per recommended methods
2. Replace water pump
3. Replace fan
4. Pull & inspect & replace intake gasket
5. Pull & inspect & replace head gasket
6. https://blueprintengines.com/

Is there anything you’d add to the list? Change the order?

[CraigS]

Are you sure the fan is staying on once it starts. I ask because; 1- on my old MkII the fan main power ran through an auto reseting circuit breaker installed by the original builder and 2- you say you can't hear it while driving. I struggled for a few months with the fan shutting off randomly. Finally one day when I had pulled off the road to try to diagnose the problem, standing next to the open hood I heard a click and the fan came on. I replaced the breaker w/ a 40amp fuse and the fan was fine for many years after.

[jbow03]

Thanks, Craig, yes it’s definitely running. It’s just not keeping up enough to cool down to the point where it shuts off.

[BornWestUSA]

I hope you get it sorted out.
I'm new to the SBF world, there are some variables you just don't have on other makes.
water pump rotation and front cover design are perhaps a thing to verify?
Who built the engine??

[MB750]

Probably not 240 but for sure 220-230.


You were probably wise for shutting her down at that point.

FYI, depending on the engine builder, the orientation of the head gasket on the SBF is crucial when it comes to proper cooling. There's coolant passages into the head on both ends, but the gasket is designed to only allow flow at the rear of the engine. This forces the coolant thru the cylinders and head instead of short-circuiting straight to the pump.

[MB750]

I just so happen to have the heads off of my 302 SBF for milling. Here's an idea what i'm talking about:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=217223&d=1754348211

Cometic is nice enough to literally tell you how to orientate the head gaskets:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=217224&d=1754348211


And the heads, also have the passages because they're interchangeable from one side to the other:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=217225&d=1754348211

[jbow03]

Yes, I remember this causing me a lot of concern. I’m worried this may be the source of the issue, but I’m working my way there one step at a time. If I remember right, the gasket ends up blocking the passages on the front side of the block which was very concerning to me.

[MB750]

Yes, I remember this causing me a lot of concern. I’m worried this may be the source of the issue, but I’m working my way there one step at a time. If I remember right, the gasket ends up blocking the passages on the front side of the block which was very concerning to me.

Yes, the gasket is supposed to block the front passages. It diverts the coolant flow to the rear of the block to pull heat out of the head and the cylinders. If you don't block those front passages you'll have symptoms like yours.

[gbranham]

Do you have any pictures of your engine while assembling it?

217230

[CraigS]

This is coming from way in the back of my head but...I think there are some small tabs on the outside edges of some(?) head gaskets that are visible after the head is on. These can tell you if the gasket is oriented properly. Others here who do more engines than I can hopefully add to my thought. It might also be worth a call to your engine builder for details and maybe a pic.

[jbow03]

Yes and no on the pictures. Not sure why I don't have any of the gasket sitting on the deck, but I don't see any.

Kind of like Craig said, I have photos of the engine assembled and still out of the car. There's a tab exposed on the front side and by looking at the Fel-Pro's that I purchased I feel confident the correct side is oriented to the front.

217251

[MB750]

Do you know anyone with a thermal camera? I'm not saying it's a silver bullet but at least you could confirm those temps are uniform across the whole engine.

[jbow03]

No, I don't have a thermal camera but I like that option!

I will be pulling the thermostat first and then going from there. I will order a new water pump next and see if that helps.

[rthomas98]

I read this whole thing and sounds like you are having the same issue I did. You still have air in the system. It gets trapped in the upper part of the radiator because of it being at an angle. You need to burb that baby.

Buy this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01A2CQSU6?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_ti tle_4&th=1

Put the 180 deg switch back in. Only advantage the 195 gives is the fan doesn't run as much.

Put the car on level ground top it off. Start it, watch the bubbles come out. Wait until it comes up to temp and the thermostat opens. Will suck more fluid and see more bubbles. Run until the bubbles stop and fan kicks on. When the fan kicks on take a piece of paper and it should stick to the radiator from the fan pull. If it doesn't your fan is running in reverse. Watch if temp drops on the gauge. "DO NOT DRIVE IT" until you do this. Be patient this whole process takes anywhere between 20min to an hour depending on how warm the day is. But you want it to idle up to temp do not rev it. Gives you a fighting chance to assess what is going on. Check for leaks, hose collapsing etc.

Hopefully this helps and good luck

R.J.

[J R Jones]

I am and have been out of the country with limited internet access. I reviewed your post #46 chart. I see acceptable numbers and unrepresentative numbers.
The basic physics of ICE cooling are:
The heat source (combustion chamber, head and upper cylinders)
The heat extractor (radiator)
Transfer medium (coolant)
The anomaly here is your thermostat readings. You do not drop 25-30 degrees in the upper radiator hose, then drop 10-20 degrees across your radiator. The thermostat numbers are odd, the radiator delta numbers are OK.
I feel that you have mixed source numbers with transfer numbers. Reading the two ends of the upper radiator hose should be numbers closer than what you have.
I have no experience with temp sending units on the left side of the intake manifold, just above the head. IMO your coolant sending unit should be in the water jacket near the thermostat housing and distributor. The sending unit should run wet, not in a dry pocket.
Your radiator fan sending unit should be in the inlet tank of the radiator. What is the sensor actuation temperature?
This exercise may be a non-issue.
jim

[MB750]

I read this whole thing and sounds like you are having the same issue I did. You still have air in the system. It gets trapped in the upper part of the radiator because of it being at an angle. You need to burb that baby.

Buy this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01A2CQSU6?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_ti tle_4&th=1

Put the 180 deg switch back in. Only advantage the 195 gives is the fan doesn't run as much.

Put the car on level ground top it off. Start it, watch the bubbles come out. Wait until it comes up to temp and the thermostat opens. Will suck more fluid and see more bubbles. Run until the bubbles stop and fan kicks on. When the fan kicks on take a piece of paper and it should stick to the radiator from the fan pull. If it doesn't your fan is running in reverse. Watch if temp drops on the gauge. "DO NOT DRIVE IT" until you do this. Be patient this whole process takes anywhere between 20min to an hour depending on how warm the day is. But you want it to idle up to temp do not rev it. Gives you a fighting chance to assess what is going on. Check for leaks, hose collapsing etc.

Hopefully this helps and good luck

R.J.

The FFR radiator I got with my kit has a bleed valve at the top, and a drain valve at the bottom. That's how I bled all the air out.

[jbow03]

Ok, I have pulled the water pump and will be replacing tonight with a high-flow Edelbrock version.

I also have the fill funnel from Amazon on the way for delivery tomorrow after the RTV dries.

Wish me luck!

[JMD]

Good luck!

[jbow03]

New pump is on and after a couple of rounds of burping, I'm not having much luck. Temp still keeps rising after a few successful round with the fan cutting on and off.

I'm confident it's the flow of water. When I'm getting to the end of the cycle where the temp keeps climbing in the engine, the air coming out of the radiator fan isn't all that hot anymore. This makes me think the hot water from the engine isn't getting to the radiator fast enough. A little throttle and that helps a bit but only a bandaid as the heat generated by the throttle ends up catching up with me.

As for the burping... I feel like it has been working pretty well. After the initial big bubbles, there seems to be intermittent small bubbles coming up over time. They've never really stopped, they just keep coming. Then the temp gets to 200 and I shut it off. I keep some fluid in the funnel and the engine sucks it in as things cool off. I wonder if there's still air in there. I have the nose up a bit and the funnel is the highest point. I never found a valve on the radiator to bleed from top, mine may be different.

Not sure where to go from here... fresh 180 thermo with the correct orientation, new high flow water pump, burped (but may need to get more out).

[cv2065]

Did you elevate the front end when burping? I filled the radiator until it started coming out the top bung. Then I elevated the car a little at the front end and continued to slowly fill at the T-filler cap. I could see the air bubbles escaping from the intake. Once they stopped and it was full, I filled the overflow reservoir 1/4 of the way full and let the car down. I check it from time to time to ensure that the fluid is at the same level.

In your videos are those bubbles escaping, fluid boiling or is it just cavitation?

[Mike.Bray]

I don't think this is your issue but I'll throw it out there. I had a temperature issue with my 68 Camaro I'm fixing up. It's got a mild 350 SBC that makes more noise than power. When I installed a Vintage Air AC system I went ahead and upgraded the radiator to a Griffin 3" thick two row aluminum model rated for 850 HP. I also installed Griffin's shroud and dual Spal electric fans. Driving it around town in Texas heat it was getting to 215+ degrees with the AC on which Ac or no AC this engine does not produce that much heat.

The other day when I got home and the temp gauge reading 215+ degrees I measured the aluminum thermostat housing with my temp gun and it read 185. I know this isn't 100% accurate but it made me start to suspect the new Dakota Digital gauges.

The next day I pull the temp sender and put it on a Yeti cup with 200 degree water confirmed temperature with a digital thermometer, checked the ohms on the sender, and checked the gauge. The ohms were correct for 200 degrees but the gauge was reading high. Fortunately the Dakota gauges have a calibration procedure so I put in an offset and now it's reading where it should be and no more running hot.

If anyone is interested this is my latest money reducer when I had my buddy Brent paint the stripes on it.


https://youtube.com/shorts/PuhcDK0idx8

[cv2065]

I don't think this is your issue but I'll throw it out there. I had a temperature issue with my 68 Camaro I'm fixing up. It's got a mild 350 SBC that makes more noise than power. When I installed a Vintage Air AC system I went ahead and upgraded the radiator to a Griffin 3" thick two row aluminum model rated for 850 HP. I also installed Griffin's shroud and dual Spal electric fans. Driving it around town in Texas heat it was getting to 215+ degrees with the AC on which Ac or no AC this engine does not produce that much heat.

The other day when I got home and the temp gauge reading 215+ degrees I measured the aluminum thermostat housing with my temp gun and it read 185. I know this isn't 100% accurate but it made me start to suspect the new Dakota Digital gauges.

The next day I pull the temp sender and put it on a Yeti cup with 200 degree water confirmed temperature with a digital thermometer, checked the ohms on the sender, and checked the gauge. The ohms were correct for 200 degrees but the gauge was reading high. Fortunately the Dakota gauges have a calibration procedure so I put in an offset and now it's reading where it should be and no more running hot.

If anyone is interested this is my latest money reducer when I had my buddy Brent paint the stripes on it.


https://youtube.com/shorts/PuhcDK0idx8

Nice ride Mike. I used to have a 67 RS. Loved that car. Some turd in France blew it up. But I digress. You need an LS3 in that bad boy!

[Mike.Bray]

Nice ride Mike. I used to have a 67 RS. Loved that car. Some dude in France blew it up. But I digress. You need an LS3 in that bad boy!

Thanks but no LS in my classic 68. No no no a thousand times no. Great great engine but not in a 68.

I've been seriously planning a BBC, 4.25 x 4.25 for 489 CI. Now I've talked myself into a 427 SBC 4.125 x 4. I can easily get 575-600 HP out of a NA 427 with some CNC heads and a Pro Flo, fitting a big block into a 1st Gen Camaro is not a small job with power steering and big headers. Plus I've already done the Vintage Air Front Runner system and converting it to a big block is almost $2k it parts. A 600 HP 427 will be just fine.

[BUDFIVE]

Hmmmm….the 67-69 Yenko Camaro 427s were silly fast rated at 450hp.

[jbow03]

Well, I think I'm throwing in the towel and taking it to the shop. I don't think I'm gonna try to take the heads off, etc without knowing for sure that's the issue.

Will keep this thread up to date.

[gbranham]

Let's reset, as this thread has meandered quite a bit, with lots of great suggestions, but I feel like we've got you wrapped around the axle.

1) Can you post pics of your accessory drive bits (water pump, alternator, etc, and the how the belt wraps around them)
2) Part number for your water pump
3) Pics of your t-filler, t-stat housing and water pump plumbing (bypass hose in particular), and plumbing to your overflow/recovery reservoir?
4) Info on how the upper radiator hose and overflow reacts when engine gets up to temp:
(a) does upper radiator hose elbow (between t-stat housing and t-filler) get hot?
(b) when radiator fan kicks on, is the upper radiator hose between t-filler and radiator hot?
(c) Is lower radiator hose (the return to the water pump) warm when fan is running?
(d) Is radiator warm/hot when fan is running?
5) How much coolant is in your overflow reservoir? Also, consider using a clear hose to it from your t-filler, so you can see how your overflow is working (or not).

Greg

[Dondero14]

Hey jbow03. How you making out with your car, any updates. This thread was a real attention grabber and hope you’ve been making progress with the issue. I hadn’t hopped in because I’m sure you had advise coming from many different directions but I’ve been thinking for a while and hadn’t seen it thrown out there (unless I missed it), but have you checked any of the flow paths for foreign material (tape, rag, plastic, etc). Aside from air being trapped in the lines, a blockage in the line somewhere was the first thought that came to me. Just my two cents.

[jbow03]

Thanks for all the input guys, it's been a journey!

Jumping back in for a quick update.

Took the car to a trusted shop and pulled the heads. Lo and behold, the gaskets were on correct.

219057

My current plan is to flow test the block, flow test the radiator. Need to confirm good flow there. Install new aluminum heads, cam and intake (was in the plan already, doing this while it's apart). May even install a new fan on the radiator to make sure the airflow is good.

JW