Engine build in prep for MK5 Roadster questions

[Wbflyer]

Hello,

Diving in to the FFR fun head first. I will not be purchasing my kit for two more years (waiting for my last to go off to college). In the meantime, I figured I cold start building the engine. I decided on a 302 (5.0) platform. I've never rebuild a engine from ground up so after a lot of research I am starting to get cold feet. I recently bought a used 5.0 off of marketplace for $150. I had it professionally cleaned and magnafuxed. Block is in great condition and has never been bored, still at 4" bores. I'm not looking for crazy horsepower for this build. I want around 300HP to 350Hp. It seems that should be pretty easy to achieve with good heads, cam and headers. My questions is what is a good, affordable combination that is reliable and is not too "lobey" at idle? Also, what are things on the machining side that are crucial to do?

[gbranham]

I built my MkIII with warmed-over donor 302 and made around 325hp. Powerheads cylinder heads, FMS Cobra upper and lower intake, Ford E303 cam, 1.6 roller rockers, 32# injectors, bigger Throttle body and MAF. Ran great. Also a 190lph fuel pump and BBK headers.

[narly1]

I've never rebuild a engine from ground up so after a lot of research I am starting to get cold feet.

You can do this if you work slowly cleanly and methodically. I was once in the same position as you.

My 302 build is well documented here:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?34272-Is-a-basically-stock-302-too-little-motor-Subsequent-build-ITS-ALIVE-SEE-VIDEO&highlight=narly1

Earl

[Mike.Bray]

You are going to need to find a good automotive machine shop, preferably a small one that will work with you. The block will need to be cleaned and bored, cam bearings installed, etc. The machinist can also guide and advise you on parts and assembly of your engine. Pay him for his help, it is well worth it.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I've built a bunch of engines over 50 years including a couple of 302 Windsors for my old Mk3 and a customer's roadster. I guess the question for you is "how far do you want to go"? You talking a quick hone, reusing the pistons, reconditioning the rods and crank and hitting it with new bearings and rings or an all new engine build? I'm building my Mk5 currently and here's the situation in today's economy---when factoring in the cost of machine work and new parts (we're talking stroker crank, rods, heads, etc.) I can not FULLY build an engine anymore for less money than I can buy a short or long block from Blueprint, Smedling, Prestige or some others. Not to discourage you, just the reality.

Jeff

[Mike.Bray]

Very true Jeff. I just got a quote for a MK VI 489 CI BBC short block from Prestige for my Camaro project for $4100. No core charge. As much as I enjoy playing with engines I can't touch it for that.

[TrackDay17]

I thought about going this route too but quickly decided against it due to the reasons Jeff mentioned and the possibility I screw one thing up and have to pay someone else to do it right the second time. I've decided on a Coyote package from Forte for my build.
If I was going to do a 302 I'd call Mike up and have him put me together a Ford Performance 302 with Edelbrock ProFlo fuel injection and a TKX and call it a day.
On Forte's Youtube page dyno runs this combo seems to make 360-370 at the crank which should produce a very fun and drivable car.

[Mike.Bray]

It's hard to beat that ProFlo system, especially for the money.

[JMD]

I second the crate engine route. It's usually cheaper and a lot less headache to buy one than build one.

What look are you going for? Old school look or something more modern? I love my Blueprint engine and am happy with the top end package. Specs are on their website for the 302RCTC I used as a base then had Forte install the Sniper 2, a different distributor, and other accessories to get it the way I wanted. You can find pictures of the finished product and videos of mine on my build thread so you can hear how it that cam sounds with the sidepipes. Personally, I think it's just the right amount of lope for what I wanted...but that's often a subjective assessment. It has some character and sounds aggressive but doesn't make me nervous that it's about to die any second. Drivability is great, as well. Pulls well at low rpm cruise, no low speed shutter or stumbling. It's plenty fast and pulls hard to redline, but if you are looking for insane speed you're going to want to step up to more displacement.

Forte also sells 302 based on a Ford Racing block. It's more expensive but has some higher end parts on it (forged instead of hypereutectic pistons, ect). It's also a lower compression motor than the Blueprint 302 (9:1 vs 9.5:1) so will make just a little less power. Not a huge difference, but just fyi.

[JimStone]

While I would have really liked the challenge and learning opportunity to build my engine, I went with Blueprint because it comes with a 50,000 mile, 30 month warranty.

Build it myself and I'm on the hook if it blows up (which it probably would)

[TBull]

To each their own. I've rebuilt old engines and I have gone and bought engine packages. I think the sweet spot is the short block and then assembling the rest of it as time and money allow. Now the problem is, as I see it, is your use of the term "affordable". that means a lot of different things to each and every one on this site. I think you have to be specific about your goals and then build the best engine for those goals as you can without breaking your bank limit. If you're now road racing, you probably don't need a RoadRace oil pan, or double action coilovers. Remember the stock 302 has limits. Personally I think I'd spec a 331 short block, and some decent heads (TFS or AFR), a good EFI intake system and call it good. With that you can also buy a T5Z transmission for cheap as long as you don't overly abuse it. I try to build mine with ways to always upgrade easily. Your base package just depends on how far you may want to upgrade in the future. Best of luck and let us know what you decide.

[gbranham]

I think the sweet spot is the short block and then assembling the rest of it as time and money allow.

Totally agree, and this is what I did with my current MkIV. I spent about as much on my engine/drivetrain build as it would've cost to just buy it from Blueprint, but a)I like building engines and b)I didn't want to wait 8 months for Blueprint to build me an engine, which is what they told me at the time. So, I bought a Boss 427 shortblock from Summit, and whole lot of other bits from Summit and others, to build the engine myself. It's really not hard to assemble them correctly. As long as you buy the right head bolts (for those who remember my snafu). :)

Greg

[Wbflyer]

Ugh, You all might be correct... AS as stated I worry I miss something and F it all up. However learning to do it over the next 2 years would be fun. But, maybe the logical thing to do is buy a long block and T5. I better decide now, I am already $350 into this. 216444 I just had it cleaned and magnafulxed.

[Wbflyer]

I am trying to keep this project to $35k - $40 tops so I thought me building the engine would save some $ but maybe I am delusional. Not going with a fancy paint job, want it to look good but sorta "aged" if that makes sense.

[Wbflyer]

Good point.. my drivetrain budget will be under 10K. More like 8K. I'm trying to keep it low because I this will be fun toy like my motorcycle. I can't get management to approve if it goes over $40k. Rightly so... I want to retire in the next 8 to 10 years :)

Side note, am I crazy for doing a 302 vs. 351? I feel like I am trying to keep the power down so that I do not kill myself however from a cost perspective it might not be too much more and at least have the ability to grow with it.

[danmas]

I know nothing, just like John Snow. Go with the 351.

[Railroad]

You better oil that block down. It will rust fast and set you back, greatly.
Coat the cylinder wall and bearing saddles rapidly. Some block cleaners are hard on cam bearings.
I would rebuild the engine you have, but I do not know your abilities or access to tools.
good luck,

By the way, Edelbrock use to sell packages containing all the big stuff to put on a short block, complete heads, cam, intake and maybe a few other items. You picked the level of HP or performance you needed. ie street, hot rod, race, etc.
Forte and would probably be glad to put you a package together and he is excellent to pick up the phone and help.

[CraigS]

I always recommend a 351. A better stronger engine that can produce any given HP # w/ a milder cam vs 302. Not a huge difference but... OTOH you already have a good block so build that. You can have the rods reconditioned, the crank machined and balanced, and buy replacement pistons. I'd stick w/ stock type pistons but bump the compression ratio to 9.5 or 10 to 1. Then look into heads. It may be best to get completely assembled heads from a known supplier like Edelbrock, Twisted Wedge etc. This is where you spend $. Is the shop that did your block work good to work with and knowledgeable? If so stick w/ them. You might pay a bit more buying parts from them but it will be worth it to have someone to ask questions of as you build. Another choice is call Mike Forte. I once called him on a Friday afternoon and chatted for 10 min. Questions answered, I said can you process my order or should I place it on your website. He says he'd be glad to except he had left work a couple hours early and has been chatting w/ me from the grocery store where he had gone to pick up a birthday cake for his daughter's party. I think you can build this engine. You have no time restriction, so each question that comes up post it here. Which oil pump, which oil pan, which water pump etc will get you plenty of info to make a decision.

[Mike.Bray]

You already have a good 302 so stick with it for your budget. As Craig said you can recondition the rods and crank, just replace the pistons. I wouldn't do anything less than 10:1 CR, 10.5:1 would be preferred IMO. Compression = power = fun. But before you buy pistons you have to select cylinder heads so you know the combustion chamber volume. Lots of good aluminum heads out there, hard to go wrong with any of the big names. I ended up going with Promaxx heads, very high quality for a fair price. I think they are the best bang for the buck in SBF aluminum heads right now. When I build my 489 for my Camaro I will definitely use them again. https://promaxxperformance.com/

You haven't mentioned anything about camshafts so I will. Be wary of flat tappet cams, there's a lot of quality issues with them these days not to mention today's oils are not designed for flat tappets. Spend the money for a roller cam, better reliability and performance.

Best of luck.

[JMD]

More cubic inches seems to increase desirability and resale value, but if you build a 302 you can get it around 340-370hp and still keep good manners and drivability. A 351 can make that same amount of power in a state of milder tune or more if you want it to, but I liked the idea of keeping it close to the original 289 car and felt like the 302 was the 'right' fit for my build. Doesn't hurt to go bigger, but I wouldn't say it's necessary. If you already have the 302 block just stick with that. If you did want more cubic inches put a stroker kit on it. 331 or 347 ci will get you plenty of power with a 302 block.

Agreed to spend the money on good heads and do a lot of research in picking out a cam, as that is what will really define the character of the engine. If you're shooting for less than 400hp and aren't revving it up over 6k rpm or putting drag radials on it you don't need a lot of fancy go fast parts. For a street car you'll almost never use or want more rpm than that, especially if it's geared correctly. Good basic or stock parts should suffice.

[Presdough]

I have a 550 HP 408 in my Spyder. If I had it to do over again I would go with a 302 or 347 and a stout T5. I rarely use all of the throttle without going sideways and the TKO is like stirring a box of rocks...

[JMD]

If I did it again I would probably go with a strengthened T5 for a 360hp or less power level on a street car with street tires. It shifts smoother and you really don't need the TKX at that power level. The biggest perk for me was the mid shift option, which I really wanted. I don't care for the look of the dogleg shifter, but I'm sure the shifting is smoother with the T5 which ultimately makes it more fun to drive. The shifting for the TKX isn't bad, but definitely feels like a vintage muscle car instead of a smoother modern transmission. I guess that's more in the line with the old school vibe I was after anyways. ;)

[ggunter]

I agree with Jeff. I have built roughly 20 personal use engines in my life, boats, race cars, etc, and when I bought my car from FFR I was going to build another one for it. Then I looked at Blueprint and told myself I can build one cheaper than that... then I priced it six ways to Sunday and I couldn't build one cheaper than Blueprint. Apples to Apples. Plus, they have a great warranty. What's not to like.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Good point.. my drivetrain budget will be under 10K. More like 8K. I'm trying to keep it low because I this will be fun toy like my motorcycle. I can't get management to approve if it goes over $40k. Rightly so... I want to retire in the next 8 to 10 years :)

Side note, am I crazy for doing a 302 vs. 351? I feel like I am trying to keep the power down so that I do not kill myself however from a cost perspective it might not be too much more and at least have the ability to grow with it.

No, you're not crazy for going 302 rather than 351.

Again, not trying to discourage you but let's get a dose of reality. I've been down this budgeting road a bunch of times when building for myself and for customers---it's a whole lot better to experience sticker shock before you start than it is to find out that you underestimated when you're part way through. For the sake of argument (and for working the numbers on the conservative side) let's assume that your block has straight and round bores and can get by with a hone and using the forged or hyper pistons that you have. You'll be looking at around 800 bucks for machine work; installation of cam bearings and freeze plugs, cylinder honing, crank polishing and having the big end of the rods resized with new bolts. Next you're going to have to drop 300 or more for a rering kit; main and rod bearings, rings, gaskets. Add another hundred for an oil pump. You didn't say what your plan is for induction but in the interest of keeping cost down lets plan on a carb; that will mean 250+ for an intake, 400-500 for a QF carb and about 300 for a distributor. Don't forget another 100+ for wires and a coil. We haven't mentioned heads...I'd recommend a top end from Trick Flow; that'll get you heads, a camshaft, timing gears and chain, lifters pushrods, roller rockers, head bolts and gaskets for $3,800. One stop shopping and the parts will all match and work together (it gets expensive when you try to mix & match then find out that you purchased incompatible parts). We haven't yet factored in the miscellaneous bits like a balancer, valve covers, air filter, starter, water pump, pulleys, etc. Now we have to complete the drivetrain with a clutch package and trans...plan on about 1,500-2,000 for a flywheel, aluminum bell, block plate, clutch fork, throwout bearing, pilot bearing, clutch disc, pressure plate and hardware. A T-5z trans will live behind a strong 302 and will set you back 2,100 bucks. Start punching keys on your calculator and you'll see that we've blown through your 10,000 drivetrain budget and haven't gotten to the rear end yet... :eek:

Jeff

[Wbflyer]

You are correct, the shop was good but sorta wanted me to go all in right then for like $5500. I was just not ready to commit just yet. He is a cool dude and very helpful. I could have him build it but it would add another $2k.. damn. I really wanna learn since you are correct, no time constraints at all. it will be at least 2 to 3 years prior to getting my kit.

[Wbflyer]

Thanks for the oil tip!! I just went out and oiled the entire block!

[gbranham]

In addition to oiling the block, I'd get an engine bag, wrap it up, and put a couple of dessicant bags in with the block. It'll keep dust and moisture out.

Also, tell us where you're located. There are likely others of us near you that could help you in person with your engine build.

Greg

[Redstang69]

Some really good points here.
First thing I'll say, if you start wanting to build a custom engine you're probably going to quickly be completely overwhelmed with the amount of options and opinions when it comes to the different configurations you can do, esp. if you aren't versed in engine building. The suggestions of the Edelbrock or TFS top end packages are probably spot on for your experience level.
Second thing is, while most everyone is right about their suggestions, you don't necessarily have to go that far in on a build unless you're dead set on that HP. As long as you check all tolerances on the parts you have you may very well be able to use the stock crank, buy new rods and pistons, find a set of GT40P heads and have a pretty good running engine for cheap, but it sure won't be a 500+ HP 427. Unless you're planning on racing these engines are pretty forgiving and don't need to be built to NASCAR specs. Think of how many explorers and F250s are running around still with 200k+ miles on them and probably zero maintenance.
People and companies are building engines every day. You can always buy another 5 years down the road and upgrade if you want more HP and find a good deal.
In short, as others have said, I wouldn't look to save money by building a strong, higher HP engine.

[burchfieldb]

I built mine myself so that I would know every square inch of it. I could have bought a crate engine for a lot less, but I looked at it like I was paying for an education to learn how to work on engines. If you are feeling really frisky you can learn to weld and build a run stand for it so you can test it out before putting it in the car. Like others have said, it is all about your goals. This forum is a wealth of knowledge, so are engine build manuals, YouTube, and the parts manufactures.

[BUDFIVE]

WBflyer, great points above. If you decide to use your 2 years before your kit arrival to learn and build your motor, consider the following:
Warning-Lots of Detail Specific to the Ford 302/5.0
1) The 302 (5.0) is a great platform to start with-it fits very nicely in the roadster. Ford built many variants so it is important to know what your engine came from?
My 5.0 HO (now a 347/5.7) came from a 2000 Ford Explorer. I’ve built several motors but this was my first Ford-below are some learnings.
Do you have the block casting #(something like E7TE)?
2) I especially agree with Mike Bray that a roller cam would be a good choice. Is your block a roller cam block?
Note that most 302 blocks after 1985 were roller cam capable even though f150 trucks still used a flat tappet cam in these blocks into the 90’s. Roller cam capable blocks have drilled & tapped bosses in the lifter valley for a spider with dog-bones to secure the roller lifters. If your block is not roller cam capable, you will need link-bar lifters ($$$).
My Explorer 5.0 block is roller cam capable.
3) Ford used 2 different firing orders. This is set by the camshaft. Early 302 camshafts ran the valve train to a 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8 firing order. Later 5.0 HO camshafts ran the valve train to 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8. Note 5 is swapped for 3 and 4 is swapped for 7 in the valve timing-the crank has the 3&5 and 7&4 at TDC simultaneously and the cam dictates which is on the compression stroke.
4) The 302 and 5.0 engines are externally balanced with a weight in the flywheel and harmonic dampner/balancer. Early engines had 28 oz of imbalance weight and later engines had 50 oz. If you buy a crankshaft, it will specify which external balance is required and you must buy the correct flywheel and harmonic balancer. If you have the engine reciprocating assembly balanced they should include these parts.
I prefer internally balanced engines and was building with forged crank, rods, and pistons anyway so my machinist balanced it without external weighting—this design was expensive and not needed for your power targets-an externally balanced cast crank and Hypereutectic cast pistons would be just fine and much cheaper.
5) Ford used a dozen combinations of water pumps and timing covers based on water pump spin direction and drive belt (serpentine or multi). Select the accessory drive kit you want-they should help you with timing cover and pump selection.
6) There are lots of good resources available to build these engines. For starters, I like the SA Design workbench series. I used the one in this picture.
216669
Like a few others above, I like building engines-I find it rewarding and for my Roadster I wanted to build the whole thing, so I built my 347 in parallel with Build School and waiting for my kit. Feel free to PM me if I can help in any way.

[StangRacer]

Your goal sounds much like the engine I just built. I don't know the total I spent on it because I had the majority of the parts already... But if I were starting from with a bare block and crank this is how I would proceed... I am assuming you have a 50 oz crank and roller block.

1- get a decent set of pistons. For street or mild race engines I prefer 4032 pistons so you can run a little tighter piston to wall clearance. Racetec has a nice piston that is reasonably priced in their Autotec line. Part# 1000336. Racetec used to offer custom options on their pistons at no additional cost. It would be worth a call to them to see if they still offer this service. If so, I would make two changes... first, change from wire locks to double spirolox for the pins and change the ring pack from 1.5/1.5/3.0 to 1.0/1.0/2.0. If they no longer offer the custom service at no charge, it's not a deal breaker... I HATE wire locks... Double spirolox are just much easier to put together and disassemble, if needed. I don't like thick rings either... Thinner rings seal better, last longer, are easier on the cylinder walls, and make more power. Mahle offers a very nice set of 1.0/1.0/2.0 rings that has a Napier second ring. Napier second rings offer superior oil control which means you can run less tension with the oil ring. Again, if Racetec doesn't offer the free custom service the 1.5/1.5./3.0 will definitely work. Mahle offers 1.5/1.5.3.0 rings with the Napier second ring as well. The price difference is around $5.00... The reason I am suggesting the changes to the pistons is for convenience, increased longevity and horsepower for a cost of approximately $5.00...

2- use the 50 oz stock crank. Have your machinist measure the journals for wear and taper. If the crank is still within spec a simple polishing of the journals is all that is needed. If not within spec have it ground .010. The 50oz crank will be fine for a street application where you are not turning a bunch of RPM. Check the rear main sealing surface. Often times, if normal maintenance has been neglected there will be a groove worn where the rear main seal rides. You can buy a repair sleeve that works well if you run into that situation.

3- throw away the stock rods. By the time you upgrade the rod bolts and have the big ends resized you would be money ahead just buying a set of Eagle replacement rods... part# SIR5090FB

4- use alecular bearings. I prefer alecular bearings with cast crankshafts and even used "rebuilder" King SI series bearings in my CMC road race engines with great results. If your crank needs to be ground .010 you can get the King SI bearings in STD, -.001, and +.001. This is a huge convenience when setting your bearing clearances.

5- get a set of the ProMaxx cylinder heads Mike Bray mentioned but get the 175cc runner heads and have them milled to 58cc chambers. This will give you 10.3 compression with the Racetec pistons... When buying cylinder heads, I prefer to buy them bare and build them with the hardware tailored to the cam. Ferrea 5000 series valves are reasonably priced and would be perfect for such an engine. For springs, spring seats, retainers, and locks I prefer PAC springs. Depending on the valve pockets in the ProMaxx heads a really nice spring for street or mild RPM small block Fords is a PAC beehive spring made for big block Chevrolets. If the valve pockets are larger PAC offers a spring seat that internally locates the spring off the valve guide. The PAC stuff can get pricey and setting up beehive springs correctly takes some time but is not too difficult. Of course, you could always order the heads complete which will save some money. You just have to make sure the spring specs are appropriate for your cam.

6- you didn't mention what you were planning for induction... If you are going with a carburetor, a generic Edelbrock Performer RPM copy would be a good fit. Summit has their own intake for less than half the cost of the Edelbrock. For a carburetor I have heard great things about the Summit carbs. These are basically copies of the old Ford 4100 carbs but use Holley parts. Of course, a Holley 600 DP would be a good choice but there is much more adjustability. If you are not experienced tuning carbs the Summit carb may be a better choice. If you elected to go with a Holley DP, there is a place in New York, Allstate Carburetors and Fuel Injection, that offers refurbished Holley carbs. A buddy of mine purchased a Holley from them a few months ago and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between an Allstate refurbished carb and a brand new Holley.

7- A Ford e-cam would make your horsepower goals and have a decent lope to it. For the lifters, feel the rollers in the lifters that came out of your core engine. If they roll smoothly and have no "rough" spots, take them apart, clean them up, and reuse them. You will not find a better hydraulic roller lift for this type of application than a Ford OEM lifter.

8- Get a "rebuilder" Fel-Pro gasket set. There is no need to get fancy with MLS head gaskets.

9- A decent balancer will aid in the survival of the 50oz crankshaft when you want to get on it some. Again, the Summit brand non-SFI balancer would be a good match for this combination.

10- for the remainder of the valvetrain a FRPP timing chain, or Cloyes, with multiple key ways so you degree the cam and a set of Scorpion 1.7 7/16 stud mount rocker arms. For push rods you are going to have to measure for length and order. I like Smith Brothers 5/16 thick wall push rods. Their cost is very reasonable, their turn around time is fast, and you will gain more control of the valve train with the thick wall push rods.

This combination should easily hit your horsepower goal. Depending upon what your machinist charges you should be able to build this engine for a less than a crate engine. However, the cost difference will not be that great. Those Blueprint crate engines are a pretty good deal considering you get a four bolt main block with thick cylinder walls. If you were to build this engine with an aftermarket block there is no way you could beat the price point of the Blueprint engines.